Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon reveals the counseling techniques that most nutrition coaches have never learned — and why mastering them matters more than any protocol. She explains why over-optimized clients are often the most fragile, how AI is eroding the critical thinking skills coaches rely on, and what her 700-page textbook Applied Nutrition Coaching and Counseling teaches coaches to do when clients say the unexpected.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon, PhD, is the author of the 700-page textbook Applied Nutrition Coaching and Counseling for Coaches.
Most nutrition coaches know their protocols — but very few have been trained in what to actually do when a client says something unexpected, breaks down, or simply won't follow the plan. Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon reveals the counseling techniques that most nutrition coaches have never learned — and why mastering them matters more than any protocol. She explains why over-optimized clients are often the most fragile, how AI is eroding the critical thinking skills coaches rely on, and what it really takes to translate complex science into simple, effective actions.
Expect to learn why LLMs are story-making machines that confidently get facts wrong, how the broken healthcare system is pushing patients toward fringe advice, what body awareness coaching actually looks like in practice, why Dunning-Kruger applies to both coaches and clients, how to help clients prepare better conversations with their doctors, and what makes coaching an irreplaceable human profession — and much more.
Connect with Krista:
Website: https://kristascottdixon.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stumptuous
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/coach.krista.scottdixon
1% Better Academy - https://onepercentbetteracademy.com/
Episodes you'll enjoy next:
#328 — Grit Gains: Building Mental Toughness and Resilience in Training with Ben Mayfield Smith: https://miketnelson.com/podcast/episode-328-grit-training-and-resilience-ben-mayfield-smith
#373 — The Future of Fitness + Healthcare: Coaches, Blood Work, and Client-Centered Models: https://flex-diet-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/episode-373-the-future-of-fitness-healthcare-coaches-blood-work-and-client-centered-models-kevin-dineen-k12eNARO
Episode Timestamps:
02:02 The Dangers of AI for Health Research
03:40 LLMs as Story-Making Machines
04:35 Mike's AI Citation Fail & the 'Dead Internet' Theory
08:55 The Antidote: Getting Back to Basic Skills
09:55 Literacy, Critical Thinking & Health Literacy Crisis
16:55 The Broken Healthcare System & Why Patients Distrust Providers
18:20 Why Parents Seek Fringe Medical Advice for Their Kids
20:55 The Power of Simple Coaching Interventions
22:55 Coaching as Translation: Complex Science, Simple Actions
26:35 Teaching Clients Body Awareness & Self-Observation
28:55 Gym Culture & The Dissociative Society
30:55 When Clients Don't Know Why They Feel Bad
33:25 Helping Clients Prepare Better Conversations with Their Doctors
37:55 AI, Cortisol Grift & Bastardized Physiology
40:55 If It's So Easy, Show Me — Krista's Coaching Insight
45:55 Dunning-Kruger, Expertise & Learning to Question Everything
51:55 Decision-Making: Low Bullshit, Cool People, Meta Skills
56:55 Choosing Projects & Finding Your Authentic Fit
61:55 The Book: Who It's For & What It Covers
74:55 Coaching as a Human Profession (Not to Be Automated)
84:55 Sprinting, Scope of Practice & Knowing Your Clients
86:55 Where to Find Krista & Closing Thoughts
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mike T. Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things to increase muscle mass, increase performance, improve body composition, do all of it within a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today on the podcast, we've got my good friend, Dr.
Krista Scott-Dixon, and we're talking about her brand-new book, Applied Nutrition Coaching and Counseling: Theory into Practice, uh, which is really, really good. It is a monster book that you will get a ton of information, uh, from, and wide-ranging discussion from, uh, things we think that are useful, the implications of AI, how to think better, uh, different practical things that you can apply to help yourself and also help your clients, and much more.
So I'd highly [00:01:00] encourage you to check out her new book. You can find it at her website, kristascottdixon.com. You can also find it, uh, in the link that we'll place down below, and I think you'll really enjoy this conversation. I've known Krista for many years now. I've crashed some impromptu potlucks when she was working at Precision Nutrition and been able to meet up with her a few times in person, and always enjoy our chats, and I always learn a ton of new stuff, too.
For more information from me, check out my newsletter. Go to miketenelson.com/newsletter. I'll send you a bunch of cool free stuff each day in your inbox and try to make them entertaining and also informational with, uh, things you can apply to increase your health, body composition, performance, all the stuff we talk about on the podcast.
So without any further ado, here is Dr. [00:02:00] Krista Scott-Dixon.
Oh, it's working Yeah? I think so. There we go. All right. Oh, sorry about all the stupid Zoom stuff. Yeah, no worries. You're gonna get probably, like, three or four recordings, I guess, 'cause I would join, it'd be like, "Recording is in progress." I'm like, "Okay." Gonna, like, chill here. So you're gonna get, like, three or four recordings of, like, three minutes-
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: of me just, like, chilling out. Staring off into space going, "All right." That's right. "Guy's got a PhD, but he can't figure out how to run friggin' Zoom meetings." Well, Zoom, Zoom is its own animal. There's no judging, judgment or blame with Zoom. Uh, I, I tried to get fancy and tried to automate the thing when it sends the calendar update and people, um, update, and then it'll send the Zoom link and all that stuff.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And it's worked until today, and then I fixed it [00:03:00] this morning, which I sent you the new link. It says, "Yay, I fixed it," and, uh, clearly it did not, so. Fair enough. Well, we crossed the first hurdle, which is getting onto the Zoom room. Uh, how's my sound? Is it okay? Yeah, it sounds good. I'm just gonna- Okay ... close a few windows in the background so I don't have any beeping going on while we're doing this.
And then you're good for, for about an hour, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm good. Okay. Uh, let me close a couple more things, and then we'll be good. Okay, I don't need that beeping. That can go away. Ever get busy and you're like, "I have way too many windows open. This is not good"? Oh, dude, yeah. I'm a tabbed browser abuser.
Yes. I used to have a program for a while that would scrape all my open tabs and put 'em in a Word doc, and I think I would go back and look at 'em e- again and, of course, I never looked at 'em again. Uh-[00:04:00]
So you, how are you doing? I thought we could, uh, chat about your new book and everything else you got going on. Was there anything in particular you wanted to make sure that we cover? That's the big one. The new book is the big one. Um, I'll, I'll show you. It's hard to, hard to get the sense of it from a, a PDF, but like these- Oh, holy crap
it's pretty- That's a- ... pretty chunky ... freaking doorstop. When we actually- Yeah ... start, I'll make sure you show it too. Yeah. Yeah, like even, even holding it, it's like, I think it's like three or four pounds, so. It's got some heft to it. It's a, it's a hefty boy, yeah. Wow. Yeek. Okay. We'll definitely talk about that.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Yeah. Yeah. How many pages? It's over 700, I think. Uh, let's see. Oh, yeah, it's just pretty much right on seven- 710, more or less. Wow. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. Uh, cool. We can just pause and just get right into it if you want. Yeah, go for it. All right. So I'll do a little pause, and, uh, away we go.[00:05:00]
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Welcome to the podcast. How are you today? Not too bad. Can't complain. That's, that's, that's good. Uh, my wife Jodi says hi, even though AI said we were somehow married, which I can't figure out how it even came to that conclusion. I'm like, how did it even get to that? I have so many questions with it. Yeah.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Like, first of all, why would Krista Scott Dixon Houseman be a recommended search? Right. And then, like, what... Like, it's, it's just a series of stacked-up questions. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my buddy Cal- So that, that was a great example ...sent that to me, and I was like, "What?" I'm like, "Oh- Yeah ...that's hilarious." Yeah. So that's a perfect example of why not to trust AI.
Oh, it's ... And the hard part, I had this discussion with, mm, sort of a client the other day, and he's like, "Well, you know, I spent, like, a couple hours, you know, looking this stuff up on AI and..." But I'm like, "The, the hard part is if you don't know enough about the background and know really what you're looking at, you will be [00:06:00] utterly convinced that what you put in is, like, the greatest thing ever."
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like, the analogy I use is if I wanted to reverse engineer my taxes and not pay my CPA, after many hours of AI, I could probably convince myself that I know a lot about taxes, but I wouldn't know where it's lying to me. I wouldn't know what questions to ask. It would- I would just have this super inflated knowledge that's probably built on a house of cards.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Well, that's the thing, right? 'Cause the current LLMs are really just story-making machines. Right. So we don't see the back end of all the math, but, like, it's just a story machine, and humans just love stories. And so even if there's gaps in the story or factual inaccuracies, if it's presented with, like, the narrative structure of a story, our brain's like, "Yeah, sounds legit."
Like, a- as I'm sure- Yeah ...you know, it makes up citations, and it will put the citations in more or less- Yep ...a correct enough format, and our brain's like, "Yeah, that seems right. Like, that sounds like it could be a journal," right? So it's just ... It's, it's s- it's such a dangerous thing for that reason, because it just [00:07:00] hits all those brain buttons in humans that are like, "Yeah, that sounds good.
That sounds like it could be correct." Yeah, I got busted on that about a year ago. I had, at the time I was trying to get ... 'Cause in my newsletter I don't like putting all the DOI links, because if you put a bunch of references, you've get like seven different links, and then the server freaks out and thinks it's spam and all this stuff.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So I had trained ChatGPT to say, "Okay, here's my references, just pull out the DOI link." And I checked it a whole bunch of times, wrote the newsletter, had all the original references, knew what they were, blah, blah, blah. I was in a hurry and I said, "Okay, yeah, just convert this, you know, drop the DOI." It's like, "Great, done."
Boom, I hit send, and then of all people my buddy Tommy Wood goes, "Hey, I can't find this one paper on, you know, reference number three and four and five." And I'm looking at them and I'm like, "God, this looks familiar. This looks ..." And none of them were real. But what was real was the authors were real, the year they published it was [00:08:00] real, some of the journals were real, and some of the titles were actually all real, but they were all juxtaposed where the actual reference did not exist whatsoever.
Mm-hmm. I was like, "Ah, crap, the one time I didn't, you know, double-check it," which is a good lesson for me. I've always like, you know, don't trust anything that it, it does and, you know, double-check everything. But even at a, at a quick glance I like it, it passed the sort of the uber sniff test when you're in a hurry.
I'm like, "Yeah, I've seen that author before. I've seen that title before. Yeah, yeah, all looks good. Ah, it's good." Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think so many folks are learning the hard way to ... I, I, like, 'cause I think that, like, the next phase in work for a lot of people is now gonna be cleaning up the AI slop that was generated-
after companies discovered AI and w- were like, "Hey, you should use AI all the time." And so I feel like the, it, like the next phase of career is like AI slop, uh, babysitter or AI slop cleaner. All of us have just like regressed to fixing the mistakes we shouldn't have made in the first place. [00:09:00] Yeah. And at what point is it the, what is the name for it?
The snake that eats its own tail? That, uh- Yes ... the AI is just regener- 'Cause how would you, when you put out stuff on the internet, how do you know it's generated by AI? So if AI is currently scraping all of the internet, how do you know it's not scraping stuff that AI actually created that probably wasn't correct to begin with?
And I don't know. I, that's well beyond my pay grade, but ... Well, this is the dead internet theory, right? Which is eventually it becomes this like in- Ooh, I haven't heard this one. Oh, yeah, yeah. Eventually, the idea is that eventually the internet will become this infinite regress of just like bots talking to bots.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Like, you know, the mirror when you look in the mirror and you have those two mirrors- Mm-hmm ... and it's just this infinite regress of mirrors, except you'll get this sort of degradation of quality too, right? Mm. And so it'll be like photocopying something a million times, and so eventually nothing on the internet will be, have anything that's been generated by a real human being with any level of fidelity.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So it's just like this ocean of AI, recursive AI [00:10:00] slop. But it presents it though in a way to you that it's just so confident that it's correct, and I'll- Oh, yeah ... I mean, I'll even put stuff in that I know is right just to sort of test it, and then I get in these, so stupid, but I get in these argument matches with it.
And I start trying to present it- ... data that I know is real, and it keeps saying that it's not real. And I'm like, "What the? Wah, crap."
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Yep. So what do you think is the antidote to that? Like, what are things people should be wary of or kind of fall back to better practices? Well, I hate to say this and sound like such a buzzkill, but the antidote is basic skills. And I think there's such a good analogy with processed foods or, like, processed exercise if we can call it that, but processed foods is a good analogy, right?
And so in our line of work, we teach people food skills, eating skills, [00:11:00] hunger awareness skills that people knew generations ago, um, and we're kind of, like, reteaching them. But these skills have degraded in the current age, right? People don't know even really basic cooking skills. Um, and so we're reteaching them, and we're also teaching people the skills of swimming upstream in a social environment where, like, everything is pressuring you not to do these skills, as l- as well as other health habits, right?
Mm-hmm. Don't go to bed on time. Don't get regular daily exercise. So anyone who's interested in doing health behaviors has to push against this, this, uh, current constantly. Um, and so a lot of the work that we do is honestly just teaching the skills themselves, um, how to move correctly, how to sleep well, how to eat well, but also the skills of how to now do these in a context where everything is pushing you backwards to not do it.
So that sounds like a really complicated answer, but it can be very simple. So for example, like, honestly just basic [00:12:00] critical thinking skills, and this is something- ... I harp o- harp on a bit in my book, which is, like, super basic. Like, I talk in my book about, um, literacy, like actual literacy. Can you read and write at a functional level?
In the US is shockingly low. Um- It's horrible ... but even stuff like health literacy, digital literacy. Can you, like, understa- can you put together a decent argument in favor of anything? Can you assess evidence? I don't mean like a PhD student- Yeah ... level of qu- uh, quality, but, like, can you tell if something's bullshit or not?
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And so I think the antidote to this is doubling down on these super basic skills that ideally in a perfect world, right, anyone who's gone through the educational system should have, but as we know , they very much don't. So yeah. It's, it's, it's honestly just, yeah, a lot of basics. Yeah. I... Years ago, I left a certain [00:13:00] institution I was teaching online for because the writing was so horrible.
I literally was pulling my hair out, and at first I thought, "Well, I don't know. Maybe it was just this semester. Maybe it was, was bad." And some of the students, to their credit, did get better over the 12 weeks, and some didn't at all. And then the next semester came, and it was the same. And the following semester came, and it was the same.
And I'm like, I literally had to send a note saying, "Okay. These are short essays. They're two to three pages. What I want you to do is to have an introduction." Here is what's in the introduction, and then three to four body paragraphs, and then here's the conclusion of... And it wasn't necessarily their fault, they just, no one had taught them even the most basic structure of, of how to do that.
And then I'm trying to explain to them how to, you know, look at data and how to make an argument where they're still trying to figure out, how do I put sentences together? Yes. It's super [00:14:00] disturbing, and I just saw an article recently that, uh, the first, the first year computer science students at UC Berkeley, like this is the first year when, like, so many of them just lacked basic math skills that a, a huge proportion of this cohort failed, and this is like UC Berkeley.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Like this is like- Yeah, this is not like a low tier place. Right. So this is very alarming, I think, that these skills are, are lacking, and I mean, like w- it's exactly what you're describing. Like it's around half of Americans, just over half, like are below a sixth grade level. Hmm. So what this means is they struggle to even do things like read labels or understand what medications do or follow instructions, uh, or follow safety information.
So like, this is really like a disturbing thought. Never mind releasing their AI stupidity into the world. But like a huge proportion of people just don't even function well in like daily life [00:15:00] tasks, which I think probably explains a lot. Like if you're listening to this and you work in the healthcare field and you're trying to tell people- Right
not to eat Tide Pods, right? Or you're like, "Uh-huh, yeah." Uh-huh. I, I can't believe that was actually a thing. So I thought someone told me that, and I literally thought they're making this up to see if I believe them. And then I did the old, you know, internet search, and I'm like, oh my God. Yes. Yeah. And so I mean, I think it explains the state of a lot of where we're at with health information currently, where people...
Like we can get all salty about it and be like, "Oh my God, people believe in, I don't know-" Yeah ... "homeopathy or whatever." Like in my day. Yeah. But the reality is that people are just trying to do their best- Yeah ... with a very limited skill set, and just like fundamentally lacking the ability to discern good quality information from poor quality information or to reason through, um, a problem.
So like on the one hand, I don't blame people. On the other [00:16:00] hand, I'm like, goddamn, can we please get it together? Like we're, we're gonna be in real big trouble if we don't turn this ship around. Yeah. Especially in the US, it's, it just seems like the The paradox to me is that even if you only cared about the economy, you would still fund science.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And I would make tons of arguments of why you should fund science and the benefit to everybody on the planet. But they can't even, our administration can't even figure that out. They're just like, "Oh, they might disagree with us. Let's just slash all their funding and education," and, "Ah," people are just left to fend for themselves, which like you mentioned scares me even more because now there's less sort of help and less organizations that are trying to differentiate information, create actual new information, disseminate it in a way people understand it.
So hopefully that'll change, but in the meantime, I, I... That's like one of the things that just makes me so nervous about where we're headed. Because those [00:17:00] institutions and funding the trials and all that stuff, even if we can magically turn all the funding back on tomorrow, as you know, the ramifications, it's just not that simple.
It's gonna be years to decades to reverse that with who knows what consequences. So that's my little political spiel. No, no, that's... And, and I'll add one more piece 'cause I just heard this, uh, yesterday, 'cause it was from a sociologist. Uh, and she was talking about the data on, like, parents refusing of basic medical care for their kids.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Um, and, and she was saying, like, on, you know, if you look at just the quantitative data, you would think that, oh, like this is just a bunch of dummies, and what's wrong with them? But if you look in the qualitative data and you actually talk to people, what they're feeling is so abandoned by the healthcare system- Yes
which is totally understandable. They're feeling so abandoned by the healthcare system, and yet also so responsible for their kids' wellbeing, especially the moms. Mm-hmm. Because we now have a culture where, like, if anything goes wrong with your kid, it's like your fault, right? Yeah. So the moms feel like hyper [00:18:00] responsible for everything.
So there's kind of this panic response where they're like, "Oh, God," like, "I have to go and find answers about what to do." And then of course, if you don't have a medical education, which most people don't, um, it's so easy to fall down a rabbit hole. But you believe that you're truly doing the right thing, and also that this is all on you.
Like, if your kid gets sicked, sick, you are directly responsible. So there's like this panic kind of motivation. As you know, when we get scared, we never make ideal choices. No. But really, it, it emerges from the current state of affairs, uh, in North America, where people just feel so, again, abandoned by the healthcare system, and so kind of like out in the wilderness.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: They're like, "Okay, I guess, I guess I gotta make this work," and then the first thing I stumble across is like essential oils or I don't know, like what the hell, right? Drinking raw, you know, eating something raw that in previous generations would have killed me. Combined with also, um, you know, we no longer have, for the most part, the living memory of [00:19:00] the consequences of this stuff.
Mm-hmm. Right? We have, you know, we don't have a situation where you have 75% of your kids dying before they get to age two. Like, we don't remember this state of affairs anymore. Um, and so there's this kind of paradox where it's like Oh, well, life's pretty good. I guess we'll just stop making the decisions that led to it being good.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: It's like when you- Mm-hmm ... take an antibiotic for a couple days and you're like, "I feel better. I probably don't need to finish this course," right? It's, it's kinda like that. Or, or like, "Oh, I've never had an accident, so, like, why should I wear a seatbelt?" Like, it's kinda that logic. Yeah. I'm gonna make sure to flush the antibiotic down the toilet, which is a great move.
That's right. Along with all my, you know, coke and antidepressants and- Yeah ... birth control. Just, like, turn the frogs gay or whatever the fuck that- Yeah, yeah ... ecology dude said. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you've probably noticed with your clients and your work too, like I've noticed with mine over the last probably five years even, especially more the last couple years, the amount of [00:20:00] medical questions I get.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And again, I'm not an MD, but just a lot of time that I spend just trying to guide them through the decision process. And I totally understand, and I would much rather them ask me so I can get them, you know, actual legit sources, because one of the pros of doing this for, you know, 20-plus years is you happen to know people in areas.
So I know people who's a surgeon who does colonoscopies. I know a functional neurologist. I know people that you can kinda be like, "Okay, I don't know. Let me, let me ask this person if this is what they would do," or, "Here's the three questions to ask your doctor when you go in, you know, for this appointment to make sure you get the good information."
And I just feel like I just see that as this exponential increase because, like you said, people are very afraid of making the wrong decision, and the amount of just crazy information is insane, and the physicians are hosed because they literally have five minutes to talk to you because the system is a mess, so it's not necessarily their fault either.
So even when you get in and they're trying to do the best they can, [00:21:00] they're trying to operate within this goofball system. So it's, yeah, just kind of a weird escalation of things. Mm-hmm. It's like, it's like the worst possible case for everybody involved. And- Yeah, there's no- And I think it- Unless you're an insurance company, nobody makes it out ahead.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: That's true. The only people that win are the law- you know, the lawyers and the insurance companies- Yeah ... for sure. Yeah, yeah. And I think people have this idea of like, oh, my healthcare provider doesn't care or is somehow invested in the opposite of my wellbeing. They're captured by Big Pharma. Yeah, like somehow they're malevolent or something like that.
And I just, it's such a disservice to the care providers themselves. So yeah, everybody's a loser here almost. Yeah. Well, this is depressing. No, I'm just kidding. Well, on the plus side, how can we not be- On the plus side. Well, okay, so let's, let's give the good news, right? Because- Yes ... like one of, one of the themes of g- the, the, the, the, the book that I've been working on is, is really just that like, okay, we, we, we can't turn around this entire system like individually, but there's so [00:22:00] much we can bring in, in the way of simple tools, and this kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier, right?
A lot of the solutions ... The, the problems are complex, but a lot of the time the solutions are simple. Yeah. And I, I think that we've often been rightfully warned about things like scope of practice, right? Stay in your scope of practice. Mm-hmm. Smart. That sounds good. I think we're all on board with that. At the same time, I think it's made people really nervous about doing things that are helpful and within scope of practice, but because they, they kind of feel like, "Ooh," like, "Are these within my scope of practice?
Are they not?" Um, and so like one of the things I've tried to communicate is you can help people improve their health behaviors with these very simple techniques that I've stolen from counseling, that I've stolen from social work, that I've stolen from all these other disciplines 'cause they're good.
They're just good- 'Cause they work. ... tools that, that no one has a lock on. Uh, and so let's take these simple [00:23:00] tools that are completely safe to use and deploy them in the service of helping people improve their health and their health behaviors. So, um, I think that's the good news, that, you know, okay, we have to come up with alternative models to systems that are broken.
But maybe that's a good thing because it invites us to, um, consider new pathways or, um, rejuvenate skillsets that maybe we've lost. Like, even stuff like basic stuff, food prep, right? Like, okay, maybe we need to reboot that. Um, but it's there waiting for us. It's, it's available and anyone can use it. So anyway, that was a little bit of a long, rambly tangent.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: But- Yeah ... I do think there is some good news, and I do think that we are empowered to act within these systems, uh, or act outside of the systems in some ways, um, to collectively, you know, participate in the greater good. Yeah, the, the scope of practice I think is, is good because I've... Oh, let's see. I've gotten yelled at a fair amount [00:24:00] for, air quote, what looks like violating my scope of practice because I was talking about nutrition or I was talking about movement or a simple screen from a functional neurology thing.
Again, I'm not trying to diagnose anyone, not saying you have this or that. But all of that, as long as you're within sort of the health area, and again, you are educated on it, you know what you're doing. I see some people doing a lot of vision training now that some are really, really good at it, and then some are gonna turn people into melted candles because they don't know what the hell they're doing.
Um, so I think staying within your knowledge base is helpful. But I would argue that because of the way the system is, it's up to, you know, all of us as individuals and especially as, you know, coaches and practitioners and trainers, whatever word you wanna associate. Like to me, those are the people that are gonna have to fill all of these gaps.
Like, the medical system's not gonna change overnight. Yes, you do need to use it when it's useful, but most of the [00:25:00] things people are dealing with now are almost very high lifestyle choices, from ob- you know, obesity to cardiovascular disease, and like you said, can be modified by very simple stuff, very simple movements, very simple nutrition, very simple, uh, counseling, psychological things.
And I think we, we sometimes forget the, the power of that because, you know, I have a simple phrase too that's, you know, complex physiology, but your actions are simple. Like, we could have a very long discussion about the deadlift and just proper hinging and motor coding and all the things that go into it, but at the end of the day, you're gonna give the client one cue, like, "Yeah, grab the bar, push your feet through the floor.
See how that goes," right? Mm-hmm. You're not gonna give them a dissertation for 17 minutes and expect it to turn out good, right? You're gonna be like, "Hey, let's, let's actually grill protein this week. That's the, you know, number one thing." And I think sometimes trainers want, and I know I've been guilty of this in the past too, of- Trying to make it look more complicated 'cause we feel like, "Why is someone gonna pay [00:26:00] us money to tell them simple stuff?"
But the reality is they're, they're not doing the simple stuff, and we- if we can leverage and prioritize the simple stuff that's gonna have them moving in the right direction first, in a land of, like, 8,000 decisions, I think that's super, super powerful. Yeah. And honestly, a huge relief because- Yeah ... like, our clients are coming to us now, speaking of AI, like, so overwhelmed by all of this- Even more overwhelmed than before Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: It's just mind-boggling now. And so, and, and there's under- there's this undercurrent of anxiety to it. Like, there's this feeling of panic of like, "Oh, my God, what if I don't get this right?" Uh, like, obviously being a middle-aged woman myself, I'm aware of the menopause grift space. Oh. And so now, like, there's so many middle-aged women just wandering around thinking, "Dear God, like, are, are my bones gonna just turn into powder if I don't get- They're gonna turn into dust.
300 grams of protein?" And, like, all this kind of stuff, right? So it creates this kind of, like, low-lying mass [00:27:00] hysteria, so to speak. And so clients come to us, and they feel so overwhelmed and so pushed and pulled, and so guilty and so moralizing, and, like, all of these things that none of which are conducive to health and actually doing those behaviors.
And so I think it can be a huge relief for a coach to convincingly be that voice of wise, calm expertise and just say, "Look, you don't have to worry about any of that." Like, I will tell you, like, on, on a stack of science textbooks, you really don't have to worry about that. Yes, if you want, we can do a deep dive into the biochemistry of it.
But- If I could just tell you one thing, it's have a glass of water or go for a walk or, like, whatever it is, right? Mm-hmm. I think a lot of clients experience that as a real relief. Um, and so I think that's actually one of the services that we offer is not complexity, it is simplicity, and simplicity with a genuine and convincing confidence that, yes, this is the path.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: It's like you want sort of that [00:28:00] imaginary far-off gong, right? Yeah. When you say, like, "Just drink a glass of water," and the client is like gong, and they're like, "Oh. Oh, great." "Phew, I feel so much better." Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've often joked that y- you know, trainers and counselors and people are just ... You're just a glorified translator.
You know, by all means- Yeah ... like, understand the complex stuff. Like, you should know those things 'cause that allows you to iterate and to get better results. But at the end of the day, you're just taking all of that and everything that's going on with the client and translating that into, "Oh, okay, when you get up in the morning, how about you go for a walk for, uh, 10 minutes without glasses on?"
"Oh, okay." Yeah. Right? You know. Yeah. Movement, burning fat, you know, circadian rhythms, whatever. They probably don't need to know all those things, but they come back and they're like, "Oh, I did that for two weeks and I, I feel better. My, my sleep's better. I, you know, my movement's better." You're like, "Oh, cool.
Okay, let's, let's add the next thing." And, you know, just the ... I, I think we underestimate the how powerful that is when people actually do the simple things that are [00:29:00] correct. Yeah. And ultimately our job in a way as coaches is, yes, we have expertise, yes, we have technical knowledge, but ultimately we're trying to make the clients the authoritative experts on their own experience.
Mm-hmm. So you live in your body. You know your body best, and so I can help you become a more skilled observer of that, and to link cause and effect. Like, when I have this input, I get this output. Because, uh, as we know from studies like, um, under-reporting of food intake and over-reporting- ... of exercise, like we're all completely oblivious to the realities of what we're doing.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Mm-hmm. Not because we're stupid, it's just because our brains are just not very good at perceiving certain things accurately. And so all of us are just walking around deluded because we have human brains that are doing human brain things. And so the more we can teach clients those incredibly simple skills of like just notice what happens and notice relationships between things, and then see what happens when you experiment with [00:30:00] changing those inputs, like that's a huge gift.
Like teaching people what does hunger feel like and how do you know when you're tired, and just super, super basic stuff. Or if you're coaching movement, how does your body feel when you do this and how do you know the difference if you've made some kind of posture adjustment or something like that?
Most people are, most of us are just walking around completely out of our bodies, having an out-of-body- Yes. ... experience right now, right? We're texting as we're walking and walking into telephone poles. Like none of us- Oh, yeah ... are in our bodies right now, right? So even just the, the basic skill of like self-observation and body awareness, chef's kiss, huge gift.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, I, the amount of people, I only, I'm, I'm lucky I only go to commercial gym once or twice a week. Other than that I just train in my garage, which is amazing. But the amount of people I've almost ran into in the gym, in the gym, who are on their phone texting in between one piece of equipment to the next piece with their head complete- I'm like, what?
It, and my new pet peeve [00:31:00] is, it's always the pec deck. I don't know why. People can't walk by that thing without having to hop on and, and stare at it and do something. And then they'll sit there like a stuffed animal on their cellphone for, like, five minutes, and I'm like, what? It's just so odd. The other day I looked around at the gym and there's probably 10 people in there.
Nine of them at that point in time were not moving and were literally punching something on their phone or watching their phone. I was like, this isn't a gym. Mm-hmm. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so wild. Yeah. We've, we've become such a dissociative society that, that all of us are just floating heads at this point.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: And then clients are mystified, like, why do I feel bad, if I even notice- Yeah ... that I feel bad. But, like, once, once feeling bad has, like, reached a certain threshold- Threshold, yeah ... why do I feel bad? And, and they're baffled. They're genuinely baffled by it. And then of course this is where the grifty part comes in.
They think, well, I've, I've been to my doctor and I haven't achieved some kind of satisfactory explanation [00:32:00] or solution, so this must mean it's some incredibly complex health situation that I then need to do some kind of protocol for, right? Um, and this is kind of like a string of small failures, like, all strung together, not on the part of the person, but I mean- Right
like, system failures, right? Mm-hmm. And again, like as coaches, we could say, "No, no, no." Like, "Let's just roll it back. Uh, focus on these small and consistent things." Yes, if you d- do turn out to be a one in a billion genetic weirdo that has, you know, a new medical condition unknown to science- ... we'll, we'll work on that.
Um, and we'll help you prepare maybe some good self-observations to bring to your healthcare provider so that you can have a good conversation. 'Cause I also know that people go to their doctor and they're just like, "I feel bad." Yeah. And the doctor's like, "Well, is it like this, this, and this?" Okay. And they're like, "I don't know," right?
So- ... all of the doctors out there are also, like, facepalming, like, "Oh my God." Yeah. "You have no idea how unhelpful these people are." So can we even just prepare them to have a better [00:33:00] basic level of interaction with their healthcare provider? I also feel like that's a win, right? Uh, like, "Hey, you have-" Sure
"back pain? Cool. Uh, what's the nature of it? Uh, w- you know, when during the day? Is it better or worse? What activity..." Like, let's go in there with, like, a one-pager, an executive summary for your doctor to help your doctor out as well. So anyway, it, it... Again, for me it's like it's almost always simple solutions.
Like, in my history, like, I've only ever had, um, one client with a legitimate, for example, a legitimate cortisol issue because there was, like, a pituitary tumor. Like- Oh, sure ... I've had thousands of clients- ... who are like, "Oh no, my cortisol needs to be balanced." And it's like- My adrenals, they're shot. Yes They don't work.
It's like, okay, well statistically, uh, like... Anyway, uh, that is a little bit of a rant, but you see where I'm going with this, I hope. Yeah. You probably don't have Cushing's or Addison's disease. Like, you, you probably don't. No. You know? Those things are real, but- You probably don't. But not you, very likely.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, yeah. [00:34:00] Yeah. And that's what it's... And I get it. It's so hard because everybody wants... We're kinda wired for linear thinking and the simple solution, and unfortunately marketers have kinda figured this out, and they'll, will present to us, "Oh, it's, cortisol's your reason you don't feel good or can't lose weight," or it's, it's always a simple solution that rarely is that the thing.
And it's hard because a lot of the explanation they use is kind of real physiology, just bastardized for what I was saying, nefarious reasons. Yeah, yeah. It's honestly a lot like how, how ChatGPT or any of these LLMs work, right? Yeah. It's kinda the same thing. It's like there's just enough science in there that makes you go, "Huh, that sounds legit."
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Like, it's truthy. Mm-hmm. It sounds plausible, so maybe this is me. And it's enough like a horoscope, you know, where, where your confirmation bias just fills in the rest. And so you read something like, "Hey, are you [00:35:00] feeling tired and distracted?" And you're like, "Yes." "Oh, I am." "That's me." "That is me." Who, who is it not in 2026?
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. And I was gonna tell you, one of the more powerful lessons I got from you was about simple solutions, was, I think s- I don't remember if it was on the old Precision Nutrition forums or where it was. Someone was saying that they had a client and they were giving them these, you know, simple solutions, and the client said that they were, were doing them, but was very upset that they weren't, you know, getting the results, and this was too easy, and why did they pay them all this money?
And you just wrote back, you're like, "Just tell the client that if it's too easy, then just show me. Like, if it's that easy to eat protein every day, then show me that you're eating protein every day." Wow. I thought that was, like, just simple but also brilliant, and I've stolen that and used it I don't know how many times.
Good stuff. So if someone's like, "Hey, you know this thing," I'm like... 'Cause we know, like- Like, [00:36:00] fruit and vegetable intake, right? People dramatically overestimate w- what- Yes ... that actually is. So they're like, "Oh, I already do that." I'm like, "All right, just, just show me. Like, literally just send me pictures of your vegetables per day, or we'll log it, or we'll do something.
We'll just do it for a week, and we'll just see where we're at." And the amount of times that comes back of, "Oh, yeah, you know, I'm not doing so good on this," you know? That's right. And it's just like this big- Yeah ... awareness drill. I feel like I should just change my name to, like, Awareness Coach. And again- Yeah
these people are not, they're not trying to do this on purpose. Like, they're not trying to make my life difficult or anything like that. It's just, it's just literally how their brains are just wired now. Yeah, yeah. Our brains actively hide things from us, and then of course there's that classic Dunning-Kruger effect or- Yeah.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: you know, more, more expansively it's just if you lack expert knowledge and expert competency is important, not just knowledge, but competency in a field, you don't know what you don't know, and it's kind of like [00:37:00] the, you know, person who goes to the gym, an MMA gym, and they've seen stuff on YouTube, and they watch UFC, and they go in there as a very confident white belt, and the black belt's taking it easy on them.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. So they're like, "Oh, yeah, I submitted a black belt today" Right? Uh-huh. They have no, like, actual accurate perception. They can't calibrate themselves. And so, like, one of the client groups that I work with is actually people going through some kind of selection pipeline for special operations military- Yep
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: or first responder or whatever, and it's such a hard wake-up call for a lot of these guys. Oh. A lot of them are, like, young guys. This is brutal. Right? So they've, they've been, like, the best athlete in their small town high school or whatever, but then they get into the big leagues with selection, and it's so humbling.
And, like, uh, this instructors and, and other team members will straight up just say, "You shouldn't be here. Like, you're not ready. You shouldn't be here. You're not good enough." And it's just, it's so crushing and so, like, recalibrating, but not in a fun way. Uh, it's humiliating, and so [00:38:00] unfortunately I think a lot of folks are walking around with this delusion of knowing things, uh, without having enough expertise to really know that you don't know anything.
Like, even me, I've, I've written literally, like, this whole textbook. I still feel like I don't know anything. Yeah. I still feel like I have to say, like, "Just give me a second. I gotta, just gotta look this up," just to double check- Yep ... that I didn't get it wrong. And so now I walk around just questioning everything.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like, uh, like, even just the most basic things. Like, is vitamin C a thing? I better, I better just double-check, like, before I open my mouth and say something stupid. So I think that's really how expertise feels rather than just, like, complete overconfidence. Yeah. I remember having this discussion with Cal Dietz years ago, and I was telling him, like, "Yeah, I'm finishing this PhD thing, but I just feel like I have more questions now than I've ever had, and, like, my whole research is just this tiny, tiny, tiny little area of this small little thing that I feel like I might know something.
And I feel like the older I get, the, [00:39:00] the worse it gets." And he's like, he's like, "Yeah, the older you get, the worse it gets." He's like, "20 years from now we'll be fucking idiots." That's how it feels. So true. Yeah. That's what it feels like, though. But I think in some ways that's probably a po- a positive, and it's just, it's the ever-ending rabbit hole of like, oh, this thing, that thing, and then you have more questions because you didn't even know that thing existed before.
So it's just this... I spend some, a fair amount of time even, you know, just doing meditation and, and the thought experiment of The older I get, the more stuff I do, the more questions I'm gonna have, and that's just the way it's gonna be. Like, it's never g- it's never probably gonna go down. Yes,
you can learn new things. Yes, you can get better. You can acquire skills, but the amount of questions and things you're gonna wanna learn, it's, it's only gonna go up, not down. Yeah. Yeah. It, [00:40:00] it, it'll be overwhelming at times, and then as you get older, you're gonna start to panic 'cause you're gonna be like, "Oh, no, I don't have enough time to learn all these things."
Now you're running out of time. I know.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: God, there's, like, 50 languages I could be learning, and a similar number of musical instruments, and yeah. It's all these places I could have visited. Like, it's just questions lead to more questions. And so part of being a curious and intelligent person is managing the anxie- the existential anxiety of just how many questions offer themselves to you versus, like, your actual hu- human ability to ever answer them.
But I, I do think it's kind of a positive thing. I think that when you lose your curiosity, that's pretty much when you start dying, right? Mm-hmm. Like, when you, when you're in a period of, like, eh, what else is there to know? It's like, oof, that's not a good sign. Indeed. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Any tips on trying to manage the things you're
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Projects and things that keep escalating. Any thoughts or words [00:41:00] of wisdom there? I don't, I don't know if I'm the right person to talk to about this. I'm one of those, those multi-potential people who always is doing a million things. But I do think- That's why I'm asking. Yeah. It does force a reckoning around values.
Mm-hmm. So why are you saying yes to this and maybe no to that? Um, if you have to say yes to this and no to that and that causes distress, why? Right? So I think it allows you to dig deeper into your values. And some time ago, like years ago, I was really struggling with prioritization. So as one does, of course, I made a very complex spreadsheet with, like, weighted variables.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Like, some variables- ... are more important than others, right? And it had, like, a set of 12 criteria and, and then, like, also a predicted shit score versus an actual shit score. So I was trying to calibrate my perceptions of, like, how shitty something would be versus how shitty it actually was. And basically what I arrived at is- [00:42:00] Like, over time as much as possible, like it's different earlier in your career, but over time as much as possible look for those things that either open up more possibilities and/or are just basically cool shit with cool people.
Mm-hmm. However you define cool, that there's some kind of intrinsic pleasure to these, whether even if you're struggling to do them at the time, right? Like training a difficult sport, for example. I'm sure with your sports like there's moments where you're like, "Why am I doing this? I hate this. This is excruciating."
Yeah. Why am I kiteboarding? Yeah. I just got dropped 20 feet out of the sky. This is the fucking stupidest sport. So stupid. I hate myself for this. Um, but like there's some intrinsic fulfillment that you're getting from that. And so as much as possible, yes, we all have to do the boring adult crap. Mm. But as much as possible we wanna prioritize those things that are going to either open up more possibilities for us, like learning a language is a good example of that.
Or, um, i- in the book I talk about meta skills, right? Yeah. That's what I was thinking of. The skills that [00:43:00] unlock other skills. Yeah, so like planning for example, like being able to think and anticipate and think proactively and like think a few chess moves ahead. That's an incredibly valuable skill. So if there's some activity that you're doing that enables you to learn and practice those kinds of skills, that's something to prioritize.
Something else I personally prioritize is low bullshit. Like, how much bullshit is involved relative to the ROI? Right? 'Cause, 'cause bullshit, bullshit will like exponentially suck down the ROI. Oh, real fast too. So even if it's something that like makes you a ton of money, if you have to deal with assholes or if there's a ton of bullshit involved, it's like this million dollars, well, if such a thing exists, Just to be clear, this is never, this is a clearly pu- purely- Yeah
hypothetical scenario. But even if you make a million dollars but there's just a wild amount of bullshit and hassle in it, that million dollars is gonna feel kind of crappy. Uh, versus like if you do something for free or low cost but it's just such an amazing experience, the feeling of that is gonna be completely [00:44:00] different.
So definitely factor in invisible taxes, like invisible drains on your time, attention, energy, on your soul. Like factor in those invisible taxes, like a long commute in traffic, or shitty people, or a negative environment, or something where there's lots of hoops that you have to jump through, and recognize that that will be a massive drain on the, on the ROI of something.
And factor it in to your decision making. Um, think really deeply about all of the factors involved, not just the primary ones. 'Cause I think sometimes people are like, "Oh, well, I'm gonna take this job because it pays this much money," or, "I'll buy this house because it's this price." Okay, but what if the house, again, has a two-hour commute and it has this nightmare lawn, and now you, your second full-time job is like mowing the lawn, right?
Or like whatever. So it's really, really critical to sort of... I mean, even this is the [00:45:00] same thing with health and nutrition, right? Okay, cool. Uh, you're really attracted to this nutrition plan, this exercise plan. You really want abs. Cool. What are all the trade-offs there? Mm-hmm. Are you prepared to have uncomfortable conversations with your friends and family?
Are you prepared to spend three hours a day in the gym? Are you prepared to do this, this, and... Are you prepared to, you know, be up cooking late at night stuffing your face with Tupperware? Do you like being hungry? Yeah, like all of these things, right? Um, so really try to think about all of the factors, uh, involved as much as possible.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: You obviously can't anticipate all of them, but for me, like low bullshit and low drain on my personal resources is a huge one versus, you know, the flip side of that is cool things with cool people, which is how I find myself here today 'cause doing a podcast with Mike Nelson is cool things with cool people- Oh, well, thank you
I feel. Yeah, I had a discussion with a buddy a few months ago now about you know, working with a sports team. [00:46:00] And on one hand it would be cool because you have all the cool toys and you get to work with high-level athletes, but I've noticed there's also a huge difference in cultures across teams, and schedules, and expectations.
And so for me personally, there's some sports where I would... There's probably a price, but it would be ungodly high for me to be the person traveling with the team, doing everything, doing all that stuff, being gone, having a fixed schedule, having a crazy schedule. Yeah, I, you know, it'd be easy to say, "Oh, there's not enough money."
There's probably a price that if they wanna, you know, unload a few million dollars per year at my house, I might do it for a couple of years. But, you know, is it... It's all those trade-offs, where on the outside initially it's like, "Oh, that, that, that looks amazing. You get to be, you know, the guy or the gal with," you know, whatever.
Um, and even I had the chance last year to do some work with a high-level tennis pro in Europe, [00:47:00] and it was great. And at first I was like, "Oh, this will be fun." And then I'm like, "Uh-oh, I'm gonna give myself 24 hours to think about it," because it also means you're gonna be on a plane. As soon as you get off the plane, you're gonna be at work.
You're probably gonna be with them for, you know, 12, 13 hours a day for a set number of days. Like, is this something you really wanna do? Because it- it's easy, I found, to get overwhelmed initially by the opportunity, and you only think of all the good stuff. Mm-hmm. So now I try to give myself, "Okay, give me 24 hours to decide," and then like you said, think about, okay, everything else that's involved.
Is this something I wanna do? And I ended up doing it, and it worked out great, and it was, was super fun. But I also at the end of it was like, "For that amount of money," which it paid me very well, "and you wanted me to do this again next week? Oh, no. No, n- no, I'm not doing it," you know? Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of that decluttering tip which is like, if you have an object in your house [00:48:00] and it got poop on it, would you throw that thing away or clean off the poop?
Oh, that's a good one. I like that. And, and so we can kind of apply this to our life choices. And as you were talking, there was another one that came up for me, which is how much of myself, like my true and genuine self, do I have to sacrifice- Mm ... for this opportunity? So for example, do I have to heavily mask who I am and- Yep
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: and my values and what I stand for in order to succeed in this role? Do I have to become, let's say, a corporate dancing monkey? Do I have to... Um, even I remember back in the day when I was in academia. Now, this would've been in the, like, late '90s, early 2000s, but... And I was working as a personal trainer through most of that time 'cause it paid better than being a research assistant.
Um, when people found- Which is totally true ... which is, yeah. Um, but when people found out- It was like a whole shame thing. It was like, why are you involved in this, like, tool of the [00:49:00] oppressor, like physical fitness. Like that was the, the view of it at the time, that anything involving your physical body was just like capitulation to the man kind of stuff.
The attitude's changed now, but, um, and, and so I felt like I had to hide this whole part of my life to be part of this culture that completely downgraded the value of the physical body. Um, kind of ironic, but anyway. So like what, what of yourself do you have to sacrifice, whether that's like a characteristic of yourself, uh, you know, age, gender, ethnicity, whether that's a, a personality quirk that you have?
Like are you the hardcore nerd, and are you gonna be in an environment where they don't dig on science or like that's- Yeah. ... gonna be a problem, right? So really think about where you can truly be yourself in all your weird glory. Um, now obviously we can't be completely genuine in a, in a work context, but like find the place where you can be most yourself, or make the choices, I should say, that [00:50:00] allow you to be most yourself.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So not just in, at work, but in all these areas of your life. And the analogy is something like, I mean, you can do any sport you want, right? But it also feels really good to find sports and activities that work for your body. Mm-hmm. Now, you've met me. I'm not a tall person. Um, like playing- Nope ... basketball, sure, I could if I wanted, right?
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Yeah, for fun. But for fun, but I have found much more success in things that r- are good for small people. Like I will crush the agility ladder every single time, 'cause there's a good like- Oh, yeah ... strength to mass ratio, right? Um, there's just not as much body weight moving around. So like as much as possible, find things where you have, where your gifts align really well, and the person that you are aligns really well.
So as it turns out, I tend to be pretty good at writing textbooks. It's like my hobby now apparently. Yeah. Show us how big the book is. So here we, here we go. Here's the- The weightlifting experiment here ... here's... Yeah, this is the, this is the chunky boy. So yeah, it's a- Ooh. 700 and some pages? Yeah. [00:51:00] 700 and some pages.
Uh- Ooh, there's colored pictures in there too. I'm excited now. Oh, yeah. There's color- Oh, yeah, there's... Oh, see if I can find one. Yeah, there's like nice... They did a really nice job with like all the nice pictures of fruits and vegetables, so you know- Oh, nice ... it's about nutrition. I like it. But there's like some, yeah, there's some colored, you know, there's like pretty pictures and charts and graphs and worksheets and all that kind of stuff in there.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: But yeah, it turns out I just have a knack for writing textbooks, and so I found a niche where where that works. And so when they approached me to write the textbook, I was like, "Yes, you've found your woman." Yeah. I think that's an under- to underscore that point of picking projects that you just like doing.
So, like, a couple ... It was probably three or four years, mm, three years ago now, I was at this point where I'm like, "Okay, so now if I have opportunities, like, h- how do I decide? Like, what, how do I pick this project versus that project?" And I ended up doing a ayahuasca ceremony in Costa Rica, and that was, like, my big question.
And the answer came back of, "Hey, [00:52:00] you know, you should just do the things you love doing." And I'm like- ... "Oh, that's so simple." "But it works. That makes sense. Oh, I had to come all the way down here to get that answer, you know?" But it's still back to simple things that provide, you know, useful things. I'm like, "That is super useful.
Oh." 'Cause it, it, it's, again, it sounds overly simplistic, but I think a lot of times we talk ourselves into things we may not really want to do or love doing for all sorts of crazy reasons. Mm-hmm. And it reminds me of one of the questions I ask my clients. Is this making me better or worse? Mm. 'Cause they're like, "Well, should I do this, this, or..."
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: I don't know. Like, try it. Did it make you better or did it make you worse? Mm-hmm. Like, it's like the hotter or colder game, right? We just sort of iterate towards whatever makes you better, and it's such a simple question. Like, if I take this job, if I enter this relationship, if I move to this place. Like, sometimes you don't know, but you can still ask yourself, "Is this making me better or worse?"
However [00:53:00] you define better or worse. Does it make me feel better? Does it make me function better? Does it make me a better human being? Like, whatever my personal criteria is, is this making me better or worse? It's a simple question, and I kind of hate myself for it because I'm like, damn, like, it's- Yeah.
You know, when you ask yourself, you're like, it's embarrassing to say that I'm doing things sometimes that make me worse. Mm-hmm. And we all do, right? Yeah. But it, it really reduces it, like your ayahuasca question, to something incredibly simple. Yeah. And, and better is so much better than optimal. So, whenever I hear- Mm
Speaker 2: the word optimal, it's like I, I get it, but- You can't ever test it, right? You, you can never find the optimal thing. However, I could tell you a protocol A is better than protocol B, right? So one of the things when I... And I try not to use the word optimal even though I still use it. Explain to clients exactly what you said is they're like, "Oh, but I did so good on this program, but I don't know if it's the optimal one."
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: I'm like, "But, but you did better, right? You made progress." Mm-hmm. "You [00:54:00] made, you know, progress towards your goal, so that's better." And so the running joke with long-term clients I got from my good buddy Adam Glass is, "Oh, better is better." Like, yeah, better is better. That's it. Better, better than zero. Yeah, it almost...
I think a lot about the sort of 19th century scientific, like very, the very mechanistic model which has this belief system that there is some kind of perfect thing- Mm-hmm ... that you can just arrive at through deductive reasoning and enough apparatuses. Um, it's almost like this platonic ideal. Enough testing, you'll get there.
Yeah, enough testing that... So first of all, that there is a state we could call optimal, and that it can be defined, and that it can be defined for literally everything, and then we could just arrive at it by putting protocols in place. Like, it just feels like such a weird kind of Victorian era scientific mentality that we've circled back around to, even as much as we know about complexity and variation and dynamic systems and, and how [00:55:00] things are constantly in flux.
Like, the idea of optimal should just be kind of ridiculous to us, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I get the f- I get the fantasy of it, and that's part of the problem. It's like dating now. Um, you know, so my day job is in app development, and- Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, w- I'm working at, with a health coaching app, uh- Oh, very cool
working with AI and trying to, you know, try to help build an AI coach, which is surprisingly difficult, but it's also the usual stuff like food tracking and workouts and whatever. But one of the interesting things I learned in app development is so many of the choices in your apps are very deliberate to- Mm
stimulate particular behavior, and one of which is the swipe behavior on an app, swiping left or right. And the idea is not to help you choose. That's not what that thing is there for. It is to keep you in the choosing loop- Mm ... so that you're constantly feeling like there's something better just one-- the next swipe.
It's like the slot machine. [00:56:00] The next swipe is gonna reveal the- The dopamine ... thing that's better. Yeah. But of course, it never happens. And so I think that we currently have found ourselves in a swiping society where the core belief is, again, there's this thing we could call optimal. It's just out of reach, but I can get to it with fill in the blank.
You know, swiping enough times, proper protocol, blah blah blah, running the program, buying the product. Um, and so I, I think this is one of the underlying assumptions that's kind of guiding a lot of our decisions, that there is something better, that I'm moving towards best, and that probably right now I should just be slightly dissatisfied with the thing that I have because it's like, "Oh, we're just not quite there."
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So I can never really derive any satisfaction from anything. You never arrive anywhere. Yeah. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I feel like in that discussion, a lot of what I've gotten better at as a coach is [00:57:00] explaining the cost of what things that people wanna do. Yes. So especially, like, people come in, and like, "Oh, you know, I wanna get super lean for summer," and we've got, like, you know, five months, and I'm like, "Okay."
And then you do the intake form, you see where they're at, you see their, you know, VO2 max is low, their stress is high, they've got three kids and a dog, they're hour commute, and- And, you know, part of the discussion is, "Okay, we can do this, but here's part of the cost it's gonna cost you to do this. Not in terms of money, but in terms of priorities."
And then they're like, "Oh, well, I can't go out with my friends on Friday night and Saturday night." And it's like, uh, you explain to them that this is doable. We've done it before with lots and lots of people, but here's the cost. Unless you're a complete genetic outlying freak. If you were, you probably wouldn't even be here.
We wouldn't even have this discussion anyway. So, and then it's just to try to make it realistic so I think they can make an educated decision, you know, for it. 'Cause I think the [00:58:00] internet has kind of distorted a, a lot of that. Like, so the one of the things I get, people are like, "Oh, you work in fitness.
Well, I thought you'd be leaner." It's like, well, what if I don't wanna be leaner right now? What if that's not my goal? What if I have other priorities of different things, and I know and understand the cost to actually get leaner? You know, because you've been there, done that, you know what is associated to do it again, right?
I feel like if people don't have that experience and don't work with people, it's like, "Oh, well, it's so easy." It's like, no, no, there's always a cost to what's going on. And you can do it, it's just, you know, back to making an educated decision again. Mm-hmm. And following on this, I ca- I, I feel like we're circling back to our conversation around simplicity, but you can often tell, uh, so-called influencers who don't work with people or, or who work- Oh, for sure
only with a limited pool of people because their recommendations are often so complex or involve so much executive function, so much thinky brain, so much time, energy, [00:59:00] attention, focus, so much not having three kids and a dog. Yeah. So, like, even, even just stuff like training with your menstrual cycle, like- Oh, yeah.
Oof ... at a, in a very loose sense- My new pet peeve ... it's not a bad idea, right? Like- Sure ... some days you're gonna have more energy, some days you're gonna- Yeah ... have less energy. Like, okay, cool, that's, that's logical. But to kind of create this whole, like, astrological chart- Oof. ... about it, that first of all, like, stresses people out, second of all, it's just, like, unless you're someone who has an unbelievably consistent, like, routine that y- every t- you're gonna go to the gym at the same time every day, and you have complete power over everything that happens in your life.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Like, the rest of us are just doing our taxes and buying groceries, and oops, uh, we missed the gym today because there was a power outage. Like, none of us are, almost none of us are capable of even executing that- Yeah ... even if it were evidence-based, even if it were a good idea. The, our level of capability for execution, especially consistent ex- execution over the long [01:00:00] term, is so low.
And like I always tell my clients, we're planning for the worst version of you. Like- Mm ... we need to know that you can do the things when you're hungover, when you have the flu, when the dog barfed on the rug, when you're having an argument with your spouse. Like, that's when you need to be able to deploy these skills, not in some imaginary perfect universe.
And so, like you say, I don't think pe- people realize the cost, uh, and not just to themselves, but to everyone around them. 'Cause if you've ever, you know, lived with someone who's super into whatever the thing it is they're doing, whether it's going to grad school- ... or med school. I'm sure you and I were both horrible people when we were going to grad school.
But like- Ugh ... you know, if they're going to med school- So bad ... or they're involved in some kind of really intense program, or again, they, they've decided they wanna become professional dieters, which is what physique athletes are, right? Mm-hmm. You're just a professional dieter. Um- Like, it's a cost not just to you, but to everything else in your life.
It's a cost to [01:01:00] you thriving as a human. I just learned this new term, like literally before I got on this call. It's, it comes from German, and it's basically like h- like hobby-less behavior. Hmm. So arguing on the internet is hobby-less behavior, 'cause you don't have a hobby. Oh, I love that. Just like, you have time to fill and you're just doing dumb shit with it.
Yeah, so- ... like, it's at the cost of all these other things, just thriving as a complete human being, reading a book, you know, doing a craft, like literally weeding a garden, literally anything else. Um, and I find this sometimes a challenge, especially with health and fitness, because once you get into that world, that world is very greedy.
It can really suck you in, because it's like you start with this very innocent motivation of like, "You know what? I'm just gonna eat a little better." And then you Google and maybe find a podcast or a website or whatever, then you're like, "Oh, there's some exercise suggestions here too. Okay." Right? And then like cut to six months from [01:02:00] now and you're drinking Bulletproof Coffee-
and like timing your caffeine and wearing blue blocker sunglasses and like all this stuff, and you become this complete cyborg weirdo of optimization protocols. So that's really not what we want. That's not what we're trying to create. We're trying to create functioning, thriving human beings who are living human being lives that are complete, rather than these weird, these weird golems of optimization.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, which oddly enough, I'll get so much shit for this, but I have worked with some of those people and most of them are actually very fragile. Meaning- Yeah ... if something goes off for both physiologic or psychological reasons, not all of them, everything tends to go to crap. Like, there was a... I would give the guy credit, but I c- I can't find this article.
Um, so I do a lot of stuff on metabolic flexibility. I'm like, "You shouldn't be taken down by broccoli or, you know, going out for a cheat meal or whatever. Like, all things aside, you should be able to handle that. You should be able to buffer [01:03:00] a Pop-Tart in the morning once in a while. Your life shouldn't end, right?"
And he wrote a thing called the, The Porcelain Doll Diet, where if you get so hyper-fixated on certain things, like you actually can get better, but then you actually start developing more problems. And back to you're saying, like, with the, the Special Forces people I've worked with on selection, the ones that are the hardest are usually dudes who come in who read too many bodybuilding magazines and got their creatine timed to three hours after training.
Their diet's perfect. They live out of Tupperware. And I'm like, "Bro, the first thing we're gonna do is, like, mess your shit up." Because do you really think if you get to selection, let's say you make it, that you're gonna have that level of control over your life? You are not, right? So, and they're like, "Oh, but..."
At first they're just horrified, right? I'm like, "Hey, you know, or, you know, just, just fail out right away," you know? Because you're gonna have so much [01:04:00] variability and other things thrown at you that you can't be that regimented because your body does on some level adapt, you know, to that. And to their credit, like the ones we worked with, like in generally they, they did pretty good.
But the initial ontological shock was just like, "Oh." Yes. And you've just used one of my favorite phrases, which is ontological shock, so- Yeah ... for the listeners, this is such a great phrase. But I think you've really put your finger on it, and I always tell my selection folks that your job is to become a master of failure.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Yeah. Because selection, the whole purpose of selection is to take away all of your toys. Yep. So it's like, oh, nice creatine routine. Shame if something were to happen to it, shame if we were to give you three hours of sleep and roll you in the mud- ... and make you walk 20 miles with God knows how much on your back, and give you blisters and bug bites and, oh by the way, we're not gonna really feed you all that well, and then there's gonna be a guy screaming in your face, and you're gonna be disoriented in the woods.
Like, that's what you're dealing with. [01:05:00] Uh, you're not dealing... Like, it's... I think people have an idea of these programs that you have to show up and, and be highly regimented. I actually make people do like chaos training. Like- Yes ... get yourself out of bed at 2:00 in the morning. Yep. Get a pack on your back.
Have something irritating on your body, like a r- little rock in your shoe or like a scratchy tag or something like that. Don't have your music. Be frigging hungry. Yep. Have to pee the whole time, right? Yeah. Practice that, because that is a much better... Like chaos, you know, being a chaos goblin is a way better way to be resilient.
You have to be... You have to have range, and I, I, I'm sure people know this book that's come out ra- it's called Range, I think David Epstein is the author. Oh, I love that book. Probably. It's one of my favorite books. Yeah. You have to be able to play all the keys on the keyboard rather than like having a very narrow window.
So like I don't know if this is a Gen X thing or what, because I feel like all of us were just feral, feral mutts like running wild in the yard-[01:06:00]
like drinking out of the hose and stuff, right? So maybe part of this is just the Gen X in me, but I, I do think that there's a lot of resilience that comes from being able to thrive in different environments. Or at least, you know, survive them and not be totally wrecked by them. And I think there was a lot of well-deserved mockery on the internet about that one guy who was like, "Oh, I had a glass of wine and it ruined me for days."
Like- Yeah ... I mean, that may be true. Like if you're a middle-aged woman I do believe that, right? Yeah. But, but like what kind of life are we building here where the tiniest thing wrecks you? Like, that's not the kind of person I wanna become. I wanna c- become the person who can, I don't know, like I think of the, the line from Rocky, like, "Eat lightning and crap thunder."
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like I wanna be- Yeah. ... like the old, the old goat in the yard just eating rubber tires and stuff. Yeah. I got, I got crap 'cause I was eating Pop Tarts and drinking beer after kiteboarding. People are like, "Oh, you're the nutrition guy. How dare you do that?" I'm like, one, it's fine. I don't [01:07:00] do it all the time.
Two, I just rode three hours. I rode 50 some frigging miles, like, and am I worried about it? No, I'm not worried about it at all. Again, it's not that my diet every day is Pop Tarts and beer, you know, but the... It just seems so weird that people would lose their mind about that because I think they believe that if they're more regiment, everything will be better.
And the hard part is that is true up until a point. You know what I mean? Yes. It's like, yes, if most people cleaned up their diet and ate real food and ate shocker, vegetables and stuff, would most things go better for them? 100%. But you don't... I remember John Berardi saying this years ago, even with elite athletes, like, 90% for most people is plenty good.
Mm-hmm. Like, the difference between 90% and 100% is almost non-detectable, you know? And I think there's this perception that we have to be 100% all the time and, you know, like we're talking, I would make the argument that that's actually a detriment. You know? Yeah. If I have [01:08:00] someone who's, their diet's too clean, the first thought I have is like, "Let's dirty it up and see how you respond.
If you fall apart, we got some things we need to work on then." That's just- Mm-hmm ... your physiology should be more robust than that. Yeah. I like the word robust a lot, and I think really in biology- Or even anti-fragile if you wanna get really crazy- Yeah ... with words. Yeah. Anti-fragile is a good one too, but everything in biology has a sweet spot.
Yep. There's literally no physiological thing that we could come up with where there isn't a sweet spot, and sometimes the range is very narrow, right? Like body pH, you can't be too crazy- Mm-hmm ... with it, right? But other things- Yep ... there's quite a wide range that is acceptable. A- an example of that would be something like, um, body fat levels, right?
Yep. There's, you know, so many people walking around with a huge range of body fat levels that are just like the sweet spot for them for function and performance and feeling good and whatever. Um, so really we're just talking about ranges and sweet spots, and I think that's tricky for people who feel like there needs to be an answer when the answer is [01:09:00] usually, "It depends."
Yeah. And no one wants to hear that, but, but really there's a sweet spot for everything, and this actually kind of goes back to our discussion about values, which is the sweet spot... Now, sometimes there's just objective measures that are going to be better. Like, pH is a great example. It doesn't matter how I feel about it, my body just likes to be a certain way.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: But there are other things that are more value-driven, right? Like, and body fat level is another great example of that, right? Like, s- I just feel better within a certain zone of body fat. It's not an aesthetic thing. It's a felt sense. Like, I just like the way that my body feels when I maintain a certain body fat level.
It... That is of, of... I don't, I don't even know if I'd call it a value. It's kind of like more even a felt sense than a value. That's, like, that's a vibe. That's my vibe. Mm-hmm. It's kind of like your homeostatic happy point. That's right. Whereas for other people, like, it could be something wildly different. Or, you know, you could have a value of, like, uh, [01:10:00] when I eat, I prioritize, um, I don't know, uh, making a very elaborate meal over something simple.
I just, I love to cook, and I love to try new recipes and, and really take the time to do something elaborate. That's, for me, more important. So I would rather only cook once a day so that I can spend the time to do it, versus someone else who might be like, "You know what? I just wanna get the food in the food hole five times a day."
Yep. "I don't give a crap what it is." Like, that's my value, right? So in working with your clients, like, a super important conversation up front is like, what do you even value as a person? Because so much of the time as coaches we're like, "You should value what I value," or- Mm ... we don't even have the conversation of, like, is this even important to you in the least, right?
Like, like, for example, you know, when I was younger, I used to be, like, s- like the squat, the barbell squat was my lift. I don't know why I, like, attached myself to it- Mm ... but, like, it was such a point of pride for me. Now my body does not like this movement, and I've [01:11:00] had to let it go. Um, so in my, you know, at 52 my body's like, "Nah.
Nah, just not ... Uh, not d- we're not doing this anymore." I was like, "Okay." Um, and so now I've had to come up with a, a new way of feeling good in my body and feeling strong when it comes to this kind of movement, and so these things are very dynamic through your life too. Um, you know, but if I have a coach that's like, "The barbell squat is
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: You know, we have to have it in the program" The king of all exercise. Exactly. Right. And that might have been me 30 years ago or 20 years ago as well, right? So as a coach, you have to stop and kind of like hang back a little bit and be like, "Let me learn about you, and let me be curious about you, and let me be genuinely interested in what do you value," and, and be willing to be pleasantly surprised by finding a worldview that might be quite different than mine is.
Yeah, and then it's okay just to whatever you like for reasons you may not even be able to [01:12:00] explain. Mm-hmm. That's fine too. Like, I don't know why I have this weird obsession to pick up heavy, old school, stupid ass shaped dumbbells. I have no idea why, it just, it's fun in a weird sort of way- ... to add one more rep to this, this kinda crazy thing, and that's fine.
Like, I don't think anyone needs to get too far down and have this super logical explanation. Like you said, it's more of a, a sensation of, "I just like doing this thing." Cool. Mm-hmm. That's a good enough reason, right? That's, that's, that's totally valid. Yeah. To your, to your point, I've recently gone back to a commercial gym, but it is a commercial gym that reminds me...
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: It's not a chain. It reminds me of the old school bodybuilding gyms of the '80s- Oh, I love those gyms ... and '90s. Where you think, like, you can get hepatitis just by walking in. No, it's not that. It is clean. Okay. Um, but it's full of these, like, obscure machines. Oh, those are the best. And so every time I go I'm like, I'm like, "I gotta, I gotta try a new machine."
And like, there's been times I've [01:13:00] stood there with, next to the machine, like, Googling- Yep ... what the hell is this machine 'cause I can't figure it out- ... from the apparatus. And so I've recently found, like, the tibia, the Hammer Strength tibia machine. Oh, yeah. I, every time I go to this gym, I'm hitting that tibia.
There was, there was a guy the other day, he's like, "I see you're getting a good shin pump." And I'm like, "You have no idea." Yeah, yeah. Good tib anterior workout. But that, that is the vibe for me. I, I guess it's maybe because it was like, that's how I got started in the mid-'80s was in that old school bodybuilding world.
It just has this real emotional association for me. Um, so yeah, that's, like, that's another example. And so if I came to you as a coach and you're like, "Oh, you gotta do, I don't know, like, power lifting or CrossFit," I'd be like, "Well, I'm, I'm vibing on the stripey Zubaz pants right now." Yeah. Like, that's the world I'm in with the mullets and the- Yep
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: and the Zubaz pants. Yeah. Well, as we wrap up, tell us more about the book. Who is it for? Where they can find it, all that kinda great stuff. Oh, [01:14:00] sorry, just one second. My sound just dropped out. I can still hear you. Yeah, okay. There we go. Sorry, my, my speaker just, my, uh, AirPods just died. Sorry, can you just repeat what your last question Yeah, no worries.
I said as we wrap up, tell us all about the book, who it's for, where you can find it, all the good stuff there. Pro- Yeah, yeah ... promote the hell out of it. Okay. Well, thanks, coach. Um- Yeah, so I mean, the, the genesis of the book was for years... So I, you know, have a background in counseling, and so for years I would be sitting in these counseling training sessions or courses and I'd be like, "God, these are such good tools and such good questions."
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: But then I would go into coaching, and it seemed like coaches had no knowledge of these tools, uh, and skills, or they'd be afraid to use them. And I w- and I... So for years I had wanted to write this book called Steal This Coaching. Ooh- And- ... I like the title. Yeah, and the idea is that y- as a coach you have the benefit of being very [01:15:00] multidisciplinary.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: You don't have to really subscribe to any one discipline. You can go into other fields and, and use their tools and use their systems, um, for the benefit of your client, right? 'Cause ultimately, that's what we're trying to do here is to help people. Um, and so I'd been noodling on this book for quite a long time, and then, uh, Cognella reached out, uh, Corey from Cognella reached out and was like- Yeah, shout out to Corey.
Good buddy, saw him- Oh, shout out to Corey ... last weekend. Hey, Corey. And, um, and was like, "Hey, listen, do you wanna, do you wanna write a book? We have this book in mind." I was like, oh, my God, like, this is karmic from the universe. And so it turned into this hefty boy here. Um, and basically the idea is how do we take these tools and these skills from these other disciplines, bring them into nutrition counseling, uh, and coaching.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: And it could be, uh, counseling and coaching in other disciplines too. It could be health coaching, it could be physical coaching. Like, a lot of these are what I call, like I said earlier, they're meta skills. [01:16:00] So they're kind of big overarching skills that help you do other things, like asking good questions, like building a strong relationship with your client, which as we know, is the prime determinant of change, right?
Like- Oh, yeah ... the big factor in change is you being able- To vibe with your client and to have them feel safe and secure and supported. So, um, how do you learn? Because the field is changing, right? You gotta, you gotta be a good learner. Um, how do you make decisions? So, like, all of these kinds of meta skills, and then the, there's specific counseling methods in there.
So there's a whole unit on, like, what does ... What can you take from cognitive behavior therapy? What can you take from emotion-focused therapy? What can you take from motivational interviewing? What can you take from solution-focused therapy? And a lot of coaches may have one of these or be vaguely aware of them, but not all together.
This is, like, the full gauntlet of counseling theories that you can just go, "Oh, here's a nugget. [01:17:00] Oh, this is a-" Mm-hmm ... "good question," or, "This is a good technique." And we're not doing therapy. We're not talking about your shitty childhood or anything like that. It's just like we're, we're just asking high-impact, high-leverage questions or, or just using particular ways of nudging a conversation or nudging a client towards change that have been shown in other domains to be incredibly effective.
Um, the other thing I do in the book is talk about nutrition from... So this book is not gonna teach you what to eat. Um, it's going to talk more about, like, how do people come to food and eating? What are they bringing with them in their journey, and how do you help shape their choices? And so I look at everything from the most micro scale, like biochemistry.
What happens when someone is malnourished? How does that affect their behavior? We know that certain nutrient deficiencies affect cognition, for example. How does that manifest in client [01:18:00] behavior? Um, so everything from, like, the biochemistry. Like, to, to, to do this thing with my hand requires biochemistry, right?
Mm-hmm. What happens if the electrons that are driving, you know, this m- um, motor pattern are missing or, or out of whack, right? Like, I don't know, like, just basic stuff like that, all the way, you know, through the body, through sensations, into emotions, thoughts and feelings, stories about the world, social relationships, and finally, the environment.
Mm. And one of the things I talk about is, uh, so I live in BC, in the west coast of Canada, and we had a huge flood here, uh, a few years ago that, like, took out a huge proportion of, like, the local farmland. And BC has a very-- This part of BC has a really temperate climate, so they can grow a lot of, you know, fruits and vegetables and that kind of stuff.
It just took it out. Um, and so I would go into the grocery store, and I'd-- there'd be these empty shelves, like eggs and, you know, beef would be missing and some of the fruits and vegetables. [01:19:00] And it was like, oh my God, like, climate change- Has now dir-- I mean, climate change affects us all, but like- Yeah, yeah
now I see climate change has directly affected my food choices. So that's the most macro level, right? The environment and, and environmental change globally. And so we have to sort of think about all of these factors when we work with clients. So the book is sort of like a walkthrough of all the stuff to think about, you know, but taking it down to the simple tools, right?
I'm making it sound quite complicated. Understanding that change is complex, but like, okay, so you're sitting in the office with your client, 3:00 on a Wednesday. They say this, you say what? What do you do? And so the book is full of stories and like all of the adventures with clients I've met through my whole life, and I mean, I've coached everyone from like teenagers to people in their 80s, um, everyone from Olympic athletes and special operators to just like regular schmoes.
And so it's full of [01:20:00] stories of, you know, life, death, birth, crazy shit that happened, Uh, like shenanigans, uh, common questions. So it's really told through the lens of stories, but it's for, for coaches who are like, "Man, I would really like to either level up my skills or feel like I can really like tackle, tackle those areas that are kinda scary to me."
Like, "Oh my God, my client just said this." Like, "Oh no, what do I do?" This book is for that. The oh no, what do I do moment, this book is for that. It's like the oh shit handle, just pull. The oh shit. The oh shit handle. Exactly. Like, I tell this one story of a client that I met years ago. Uh, this was when I was still working with Precision Nutrition, and I was...
I think I was even coaching in their coaching program at the time. That was how I got started. And she-- We did a consultation, and she was like, "I have terminal cancer." And, and I was like, "Why are you enrolled in this program that's kind of [01:21:00] more about fat loss?" And she's like, "Well, I j- I just wanna look good."
And I'm like, "Listen- Hmm ... with the kind of cancer you have, you're gonna be losing weight shortly, I can assure you." Like, she was like- Yeah ... "Yeah, I think I have about, like, a year or so." And I was like, like this was just- Oof ... the wildest conversation. And it turned out to be... But, but, uh, you know, as I talk about in the book, I, it, it turned out to be a really affirming and wonderful conversation, 'cause we were able to say, like, "What do you wanna do in your last year of life?"
Um, and this was actually the client that got me inspired to do a death doula certification- Mm ... and all, to do this kinda end of life stuff. But, like, what do you want with your last year? Who do you wanna be? What do you... Like, what choices would you like to make? How can we get you off the diet culture rollercoaster that you've been on- Yeah
for 60 years of your life, and, and get you living this last year of your life in a very affirming kind of way? So that was, like, one of the craziest situations early in my career that I was just like, "I don't [01:22:00] even know how to have this conversation." Yeah.
Mm-hmm Oh, wow. That's great. And where can people find the book? Is it out now, I assume? Yeah, it's out now. Um, so if you're in the US, you can get it right from the publisher's website, and I'm happy to share a link. Uh, if you want that too. Yeah, we'll put a link down below. Uh, it's on Amazon. Uh, you know, if you, if you wanna hook up, feel free to email me and, and say, "Well, it's, you know, I don't know how to find it in my country."
We'll try to find some way to get it to you. I mean, there's also an e-book too, so you don't have to get this- Oh, cool ... fat donkey boy. Like, an e-book's probably a better choice- ... for a lot of people. Um, but, but yeah, so it's available on the publisher's website, and I'm happy to share that with you. And I'm also thinking about putting together a course for it, because- Mm
it's one thing to get this, and then you're like, "Okay, great." Oh, boy. "Oh, like, what do I do?" Just like, you know, you just, like, open the first page and then slam it shut 'cause you're like- Yeah ... "Whoa, this is overwhelming." So, so I'm looking at developing a course and then potentially some kind of certification for this, 'cause I just, [01:23:00] I think it's so helpful to learn in a way that's, like, guided and, and helps you navigate.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I mean, it's the same thing you do with your certification, right? Yeah. Is navigate people through s- that information. So that's a future, a future project for me. Oh, that's awesome. Mm-hmm. And then do you have a website where people can find more information? Do you work with any clients still anymore, or are you- Yeah, I do
pretty busy with everything else? Yeah, yeah. I, honestly, I love one-on-one client work. It's one of my favorite things. I know everyone's like, "Oh, one-on-one is like, you know, you're trading time for money and blah, blah, blah." But it's like- Yeah ... I just love it. I just- Yeah ... love sitting down with one other person and, like, chilling out for an hour and really digging in with their stuff.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: So yeah, I still work with clients. Um, so people can just go to kristascottdixon.com. I have finally, finally entered the 21st century and got my website with my name on it. Ooh, wow. This is new. I know. I'm such a boomer about this. I, I had, I'd had this domain for literally, [01:24:00] like, 15 years, and then every year around New Year's, my New Year's resolution was like, "Make my website this year."
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And I never did. So this year was the year, apparently. Yeah. So. No, that's awesome. I would highly encourage people to, to check that out. And the other part I really love about all your work too is just, you know, all the academic stuff and just all the- Just practical stuff, 'cause you could tell from day one you've always worked with clients.
And again, that's always my bias too. I remember talking to a marketing buddy years ago, and he's like, "Why are you still working with clients? What are you doing, you crazy person? You've been doing this for how many years now? Do you still need to do this?" And I'm like, "Kind of, yeah," 'cause I, I like it to a point.
I don't want too many clients, 'cause I found that out in COVID when I carved my right eyeball out with a dull spoon. Same. But I have learned so much from working with all sorts of clients, like stuff that I would have never had to learn otherwise. You know what I mean? Because then you- you're just like a glorified problem [01:25:00] solver, and the problems you get cause you to do things that I would have not searched out on my own.
So I think that's always something that I, I... It is frustrating, it is hard about the process, but I, I know at the end of the day my, my skill set and everything else is gonna be better for it. And then you see the resolution of, oh, that's so cool we got this or that thing figured out. And to, to see their success as they, uh, do it is just, it's, uh, just like the coolest feeling ever.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: I think so too, and I, and I, and I feel like people who treat client work as kind of like the shit sandwich... Like, I get it. We all have our things that we like, right? So that's totally fine. There's no judging there. But I feel like if you're in coaching and you treat actual coaching as a shit sandwich, then it's like- Yeah, why are you in coaching?
Yeah, like why are you in coaching? You should at least kind of like people. It's, I feel the same way about these coaches who are like, "Oh, you, you know, you wanna scale up and you wanna automate everything." Mm-hmm. And it's like, okay, yeah, I get we wanna automate bullshit tasks, but [01:26:00] like, why am I automating my communication and my messaging and my interaction?
Like, literally I have one job as a coach, and that's to be a human being. And so I, I've always like been so puzzled by people who are like, "Oh, you wanna build a, an imaginary, let's be honest, an imaginary seven-figure coaching business through high-ticket blah, blah, blah sc- uh, automation." I'm like, this is all bullshit.
Like- Yeah ... and/or like my- obligation in this role is to be of service to other human beings. Like, that is what I'm put here to do. So, like why am I creating this apparatus of automation? So that's my, my take on it personally. I just feel like if you're in a human profession, at some point... I mean, may- you know, maybe you get to a certain point in your career when you're just like, "Fuck people."
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I'm just so- Yeah. I totally, I totally understand that as well. Yeah. Yeah. It just seems like it's so weird that the ascension model in coaching is to paradoxically [01:27:00] not do coaching. Yeah. That's it. Which is, is kinda like, what? And, and I get it. Like, you know, that's why I have certifications and other stuff like that, 'cause it is more scalable.
You can interact with more people on that way, too. But a lot of that is still built off of all the problems you had to solve, you know- Mm ... with, with one-on-one, and I think that's... Yeah. My last part is a lot of researchers I think give really good advice based on research, but my also pet peeve is you can tell right away the ones who have never trained a human soul in their entire life, because their recommendations are valid based on research, Norwegian four-by-four model, but will completely, Tabatas, will completely blow people up, like, on day one.
And so it's- Yeah ... and then everyone has, like we were talking about, this thing of, "Oh my God, so-and-so researcher said that this was optimal to do the four-by-four, and I just really couldn't do it, and my output was so low," and then they feel like this horrible human because they couldn't live up to this thing that someone just read a [01:28:00] study and told everyone to go do, so.
Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon: Yeah. No. I, I feel the same way when I read stuff. And this isn't wrong, but when I read stuff about like, oh, women at, uh, middle-aged women should, everyone should be sprinting, and I'm like, okay. Oof. Okay. I, I have to have a warmup before my warmup for the warmup. Oh, yeah. This, this hamstring could never. It's only loosely attached with s- a few last strands of collagen right now.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Right. Like, this thing is hanging on by a thread. Yeah. That's one of those things where- That's one of those things where- ... in, on principle, I agree. In practice, oh man, the amount of work we need to do before you can sprint, like, 'cause I've had some clients come to me with that goal, which is amazing, I love it, but, like, my rule number one is for God sakes, do not go out and go 100% and test your sprint today.
Please do not- Yes ... do that. Yes. Oh, God. Yeah. Oh. We're gonna, we're gonna put you on the five-day warmup protocol before we're gonna let you even step on the track. [01:29:00] Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for all your time. I really appreciate it, and I would highly encourage everyone to check out your book and all of your services.
And yeah, thank you for just all the wonderful information for... God, I've been following you for over 20-plus years now, which is wild, so thank you for all that. I really appreciate it. Well, thank you, Dr. Mike. Awesome.
Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Really appreciate it. Huge thanks to Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon. Always enjoy our chats, so it was wonderful to chat with her again and to have her come on and share all of her knowledge. Uh, make sure to check out her book, Applied Nutrition Coaching and Counseling: Theory into Practice.
You can find it on her website, kristascottdixon.com, and we'll have another link where you can find it below. Also, uh, make sure to check out all the great stuff that she's got going on there. Always enjoy our chats, and like I [01:30:00] said in the intro, really learn a ton of, uh, great stuff. Not only does she have really good knowledge, uh, she works with actual humans to help them apply it.
So there's a lot of people who may have good information, but coaching and working with people, I feel, is still super important, because that is a skill set in and of itself. And not only does she do research, she actually works with real humans. That's also the main reason why I still coach a fair amount of people, so I learn a ton of stuff, uh, from them, and that's kind of where the rubber meets the road, making sure people can apply it, which is its own skill set.
So check out her great stuff there, wonderful book. If you want more stuff from me, go to my newsletter. It's the best place to get more information, miketnelson.com/newsletter. We have a link down below. You can get daily cool stuff in your inbox. Thank you [01:31:00] so much for listening to the podcast. We really appreciate it.
If you could do us a favor and give us the old likes and downloads and subscribe, and if you enjoyed this podcast, share it online. Make sure to tag myself and Krista so we can say thank you. Appreciate all of it. If you even have a few 20, 30 seconds, if you could leave us a review on iTunes, Spotify, et cetera, that goes a long way.
Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. We really, really appreciate it. Talk to all of you next week