In this episode of the Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with coach Kevin Dineen to talk about where fitness and healthcare are headed and whether their merger is a net positive or negative. We dig into why people still default to asking physicians about training and nutrition, the problems created by siloed systems, and what a more client-centered model could look like with coaches, PTs, massage therapists, and physicians collaborating under one roof. We also discuss the pros, cons, and liability concerns around coaches using blood work for performance, how hard training can skew lab results, and why basic habits like lifting, cardio, steps, and community support matter more than expensive supplement stacks. Kevin closes with key advice for newer coaches: professionalism, mentorship, travel to learn standards, and clarifying your “why.”
In this episode of the Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with coach Kevin Dineen to talk about where fitness and healthcare are headed and whether their merger is a net positive or negative. We dig into why people still default to asking physicians about training and nutrition, the problems created by siloed systems, and what a more client-centered model could look like with coaches, PTs, massage therapists, and physicians collaborating under one roof.
We also discuss the pros, cons, and liability concerns around coaches using blood work for performance, how hard training can skew lab results, and why basic habits like lifting, cardio, steps, and community support matter more than expensive supplement stacks. Kevin closes with key advice for newer coaches: professionalism, mentorship, travel to learn standards, and clarifying your “why.”
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mike Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things to increase performance, add muscle, improve body composition, and do all of it within a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today on the podcast, we've got coach Kevin Dein, and we're talking about the intersection of fitness.
And health. It seems like as of now, the models are becoming much more merged together and we're discussing is that a net positive, negative? Like what is the direction of that? And as you're listening to this podcast, I'm actually hanging out with, uh, coach Kevin here in Vegas. We're out here for mastermind meetings, so.
Hanging out with a bunch of other people trying to learn [00:01:00] all sorts of new stuff. So Coach Kevin Dunin is a strength and conditioning coach and performance specialist known for his work with athletes, lifters, tactical populations, many others focusing on building real world strength, dur ability, and long-term performance.
It's coaching style blends, traditional strength methods, applied physiology and practical field experience to help athletes and general population get stronger without burning themselves into the ground. So Kevin is also running gyms in the Midwest and New York City area. So he is a very busy guy and has a ton of experience in the fitness, both coaching running the gym, and just everything that's surrounding it.
And what's cool is he spent a lot of time thinking about the different models of, you know, what is gonna be the best experience for the client. And a [00:02:00] side note. I should also mention that this episode was recorded probably a couple months ago now, and this was recorded right after, uh, Dr. Peter Atia was on, uh, 60 Minutes.
So just a heads up that you should be aware that the subsequent developments have occurred regarding Dr. Atia. So the conversation here is just focusing on coaching philosophy and professional licensing, not necessarily on those later events. I debated about what I should do with the episode, and I've decided just to leave it as is.
Because we were using him as a public reference point that people would recognize, and I opted not to edit anything out of it. So the only edit we have here is when Kevin had to used the bathroom. So we edited that part out. So we opted to leave everything else here because I think this is a very.
Important, uh, discussion, I think as a fitness world is going [00:03:00] forward. There's definitely some pros and cons to, you know, doing things like blood work and where is the line between what is a physician doing, what as a coach or professional can you do? I know for myself, I started looking at blood work many, many years ago, God, probably 12, 13 years ago.
And then. I stopped doing it for a bunch of years because I didn't want the liability. In all honesty, I got kind of nervous that I was gonna make huge errors of omission, that I would miss things. I wasn't trying to replace their physician or their doctor. But now I've started doing it again, probably as of six or seven years ago Again.
For performance only because there's some really great stuff you can get with blood work that you can't get by any other form of testing. So I do think it can be a use while useful service, but there's a whole bunch of caveats and a bunch of other issues and everything else that we discuss in [00:04:00] this episode.
So again, super curious on what your guys' thoughts are on that. So make sure to check out all of Kevin De Dean's wonderful stuff. We'll put links to everything that he has here. He is putting out a ton of great content, so make sure to check that out. If you want more from me, I go to the link down below.
You can hop onto the newsletter list completely free, send you cool stuff to your inbox. Try to make them as entertaining and useful as possible. So without further ado, uh, here is Kevin Deneen talking about the future of fitness. And also related to healthcare and models going forward, enjoy.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Welcome to the podcast coach. How are you Doing
Kevin Dineen: great, my man. Great to be here. Great to chat with you as always.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. We got to see each other in was Vegas I believe was the last time we saw each other in person.
Is that correct?
Kevin Dineen: Yeah. And I think,
Dr MIke T Nelson: yeah. Yeah, this film just goes back you only me some video content filming. That was fun. [00:05:00]
Kevin Dineen: Yeah, I, I learned to speak your language. It's it's fun listening to your podcast and watching you go through the years and learning from you. Yeah. It's fun.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Well, thank you so much.
I appreciate it. And the one thing I'm working on in the podcast is also I would say bringing in people who at face value, maybe looks like, have a differing opinion and maybe certain parts do. And then having the benefit of a podcast is, it's a long form discussion so you can hash out like, okay, here's what I think, here's what I think, because everything I feel like on social media is you're making these big jumps from a, a 22nd or a 32nd, dancing monkey, sound clip thing.
And I think a loss gets, a leg gets lost in the, the context. And one of the things that was interesting we saw Peter Attia was on 60 Minutes a while ago. And you had a differing opinion about physicians in general. And maybe we'll start with this [00:06:00] specific case study since he is a public figure of the pro and the con.
So just give me your, your take on it, which I thought was super interesting.
Kevin Dineen: Yeah. Look I think what Peter do is doing for the industry is a net positive. What Peter is doing for society is a net positive. I, I think we, in society as a whole, tend to put physicians up on a pedestal, right? And so this pedestal that we put them on, whether justified or not comes with this, they're the most schooled, they're the most well paid, they have the most background in studying the body.
So a lot of people have great respect for the opinion of a physician. And I have trained doctors. I have a fa, I had a late uncle who was a doctor and I think great. Things of them in their specialty. I don't think physicians should have a specialty in nutrition. [00:07:00] They're, if, if, if my orthopedic surgeon had a specialty in nutrition, he, he like, what are we doing?
It's, it's not the same. I think it's, it's such a I don't know. There's, we tend to be in silos, whether it's in social media or in in work. And I think the most that I've been able to grow and learn in the industry has been from people who have different skill sets than my own. And so, in New York, we're surrounded by amazing personal trainers that have different like backgrounds.
Like, I'm not the best kettlebell guy. I don't, I don't fault myself on that. I'm not the best, like Joel Jameson is pretty much our guy from a, like, in the industry, right? From like, who's the cardio guy? Who is the guy that knows it? Right? It's Joel Jameson, who, that's the first person that comes to mind. When it's hospitality, it's Mark Fisher, right?
And then, but then even those people that you learn from, you don't, you don't get mad that Mark doesn't have a nutrition expert or expertise. You, you just, [00:08:00] you, you, the, the overarching theme from Peter Attias messaging again, I think is awesome. I think it's keep moving the value of muscle. We cannot under estimate the value of your metabolism.
Let's keep your metabolism going. Let's eat your protein. Like these are all positive things. The, the, like, the taking shots at other doctors, I was just like, like, okay, like, it's fine, but like, I don't know. I. I want my orthopedist or my anesthesiologist, or I want them as their specialty. They, they go to school for eight, 12, however many years to learn your urologist, you don't want urologist being a, a plastic surgeon.
Like, it's just, they're, they're very, very unique specialties that that one, one little millimeter or less of motion can make all the difference in the world. And so for me, I, I just thought the messaging was, was a little off. And I, I, while the, the [00:09:00] correlation versus causation, the study way better than I do, the correlation versus causation, I was a little taken aback to about, the messaging there.
But overall, I think he's got a net. Positive on us as, as society. And people are curious about how VO two max, what's, what's VO two max? People are curious about their grip strength. People are curious about how much they can, trap on deadlift and stuff. So, I don't confuse curiosity with necessarily a business model.
But it's still a, a, a talking point. And as someone who's had, I have a four year degree, and then 20, 21 year, this is my 21st year of it being in, in the trenches, right? So, Peter Atia is not in the trenches. Like, let's just be clear. He's not, he's not training people. He shouldn't be training people.
I don't want my orthopedist training people. They, they don't know as much as I do. They don't know as much as you do. They won't, and it's just, that's the truth. But Peter Attia is a wonder con from a, a marketing perspective as you can see. And overall the messaging is, is positive. But I did happen to, to notice that that was a, a clear hole in his [00:10:00] argument.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. And to me it is also. A couple things. It is odd that physicians especially gps get so many questions about exercise and nutrition, and rightfully so. They're probably the first person that someone's gonna interact with. And instead of a lot of 'em saying, I don't know, let's try to set up a, a system, a referral system to find someone who can, that gets into the whole bigger discussion of how the whole system is set up, which I do believe is rigged against physicians.
It is not in their favor to try to make any changes. On the flip side, it's odd that most of 'em had like an hour of nutrition. Most of 'em had maybe an hour of exercise at the most. Again, not saying that they don't have a background in the biological systems and hormones and and everything else, but I think at face value it's like, oh, okay, well [00:11:00] it can be that much more.
Complicated since we have a background in physiology and as it gets exceedingly complicated. Very fast. So I think it's a, to me it's such a weird mismatch that the current system and the way everything is set up, it's almost a no win for everyone. It's a no win for the person going in because they're asking someone who's probably not qualified unless they've gone outta their way to do a whole bunch of other time, and to try to get up to speed.
It's almost a net negative to the physician who's operating a system where you barely have five to 15 minutes to even talk to the person, barely even get a freaking history on what they're doing. And now you're supposed to solve their issue. Oh, and by the way, your, your BMI is high, so I'm gonna talk to you about training and nutrition and Okay.
I've got 30 seconds left of our conversation. So from that aspect, I think it's almost a negative all around the pet peeve. Mine is. I think there's still a belief. And I'm curious [00:12:00] on your opinion to the average person walking the street, that if I have a question about nutrition and exercise, I should talk to my doctor.
Hmm. Why do you think that's still persists and do you agree with that?
Kevin Dineen: I think it, it is to some extent. I, I, I still think the, the, the loudest, wheel gets the oil. So for a lot of people it's who's the most influential in your circle? Who's the most influential in your culture, in your neighborhood, et cetera.
That, that's your person. You're also gonna ask that person, like your fittest friend, you're gonna ask, right. And then they're gonna, if they're true to, to what they're, if they're, if they're gonna be honest with you, I call it New York, honest, they're gonna tell you, well, right. They're gonna tell you.
Like what they've done. And then if they're, if they're nice, they're gonna say, ah, well, you're okay. You're okay to do this, this, and this. I think the, the, going back to my point about putting, we put doctors up on a pedestal and rightfully so, [00:13:00] they're the most educated. I still think that the, the system to your point, is 100% broken.
And it should be that a doctor's office should be next to a physical therapist's office, should be next to a massage therapy, should be next to a orthopedic should be next to a, like, all of these things that exist in silos should not, the Venn diagrams of overlap while, while it's still a Venn diagram, is a significant specialty.
Going back to like your question and, and the, the collaboration and the coordination for the client, right? I'm a big believer in like, let's put the client first. If there's one thing that I have a skillset of, of retaining for every client, it's that the client is first and so. From an industry standpoint, physicians, by the way, are well paid.
So it's not a question of pay. They're definitely paid. Well, they, they technically could, if they had the business practice, learn the business side so that they could collaborate and have people in their network and in their, their circle [00:14:00] so that the client could be, if, if the lifecycle of a client that they get right, or their patient, let's call it that, is 50 years.
If they get a patient for 50 years, they are incentivized to keep them and, and take care of them, right? If, if we look at the model this way, so if the physician takes care of the person, if the physical therapy takes therapist, takes care of the individual. If the personal trainer who's in-house, the strength conditioning specialist, the metabolism specialist, however you want to break it down.
If you break it down where the client is put first, the patient is put first. I think it's a, it is a wonderful reminder of how powerful we can be if we work together. I think the, the, the silo effect of what's happened is you're only gonna be seeing on social media what you click on and what you watch.
And the, the most sensational p the, the fact that some of these influencers selling g GLP ones right now is like, I know it's a little off track, but
Dr MIke T Nelson: that's, I
Kevin Dineen: literally
Dr MIke T Nelson: just wrote that down on my notepad. [00:15:00]
Kevin Dineen: But see, and that's the thing. It's like, like I, I respect the, the world of all of the doctors and I believe that we should be collaborating like all the time, all the time.
Orthopedics, physical therapists, occupational therapists that like, at, at no point have I had a client list where they couldn't benefit from any one of those people. Like, where I had zero need for any one of those massage therapists. We just, somebody had a foot fracture the other day and I said, I think that's probably, you're probably gonna need to get some other alternative treatments rather than just putting 'em in the boot.
I said, what are, what are those? I referred 'em out. See ya. Right. That's, that's, I I'm not gonna help, I'm not gonna get foot strengthening exercises. That's not my thing. Right. And then you can't come back and be like, well, you had a four year degree in sports medicine. You're supposed to know that stuff.
Yes. But I'm not an orthopedic.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: Like, like I don't, I don't, I don't know what from a fracture to like, like no, that's not those first six weeks. Leave it alone. So yeah, I, I'm a big believer [00:16:00] in the, the, the lateral learning as our friend Joe Coleman calls it, I remember one of her first presentations where I was like, I love that phrase.
And the hospitality industry, how much we can learn from the hospitality industry and, and their margins. They have to be good at hospitality, otherwise they can't exist.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: Right. And so being able to offer a client and patient experience that serves the client and the patient at the highest level is the goal.
Right. Obviously do no harm, but for some people they've, they're, they're also like, well, I gotta, I gotta make money, I gotta make bi, I gotta, pay the bills. And it's like, well, okay. But the client still comes first. And I think when you serve the client and put the client at the highest level of your priority, right.
And obviously do no harm, but then for the long term, take care of them right then, then you have better solutions because of the fact that you're not afraid to be like, oh, here you go, I have somebody who can help. Then, then the client wins, you win, and then, they, they, their problem is solved faster.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. One of [00:17:00] my things I thought a fair amount about is. If, so, the two models I have in my head is the, where I think we are now and where I think we have to go in the future. I think we're at now still a physician centered model. If anyone has a problem, they go to their physician. Now again, this could be argument from insurance because I have to see my GP first in order to get a referral, eventually get insurance coverage and all that kind of stuff.
So, turns aside, I know that's like a whole other discussion that I know very little next to nothing about. With that model, there's so many constraints because of the current system, unless you, like a is practices cash based. So he is not dealing with insurance. He's dealing with a whole different model in, in general.
But I think the model he is doing is ironically almost a trainer centered model, but a physician who's doing it. So my bias is what if we take, someone like yourself and what you're doing. Put them at the center. And by all means, if you have a physical issue, you have the flu, you think you're getting sick, [00:18:00] of course go see your doctor.
But how often do people come to you or show up with, ah, my right elbow's doing this weird niggly thing. Or, when's the last time you had blood work? Or things that could be facilitated by someone who's maybe not necessarily a physician, however knows a lot of, top quality healthcare practitioners.
It could be, whatever. Take your pick from orthopedic to physical therapy, like you said, massage, nutrition, exercise, whatever. And that you do like the training model where the athlete is the center and then whatever they need goes out from there. So if it's a medical or an emergency thing, yeah, by all means use the current medical system, et cetera.
But. I would argue for more of the day-to-day things, and a lot more on the prevention side. Ironically, it should be more of a fitness professional is the center person to guide and disperse that person. What are your [00:19:00] thoughts on that? Hey,
Kevin Dineen: I think it's perfect. I, I would go one and a half steps further.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. Go.
Kevin Dineen: The, the, the, the model that is going to steal everyone's money right, is technically the gym model that says everything's, everything under the roof that you, from the time you step in these doors is included in your price. And then obviously there's add-ons of other services. But the, I had a friend who is not a, not a friend, a golf buddy who's going through some rough times and it, somebody that you golf with frequently is a golf buddy.
They're not like, Hey, come on over. Like, they're, they're just, they're separate. Let's keep, let's keep the feral cats out of the house. I'm kidding, but mostly, yeah. And, and so I, I, I said to his good friend, Hey, you, I'm, I'm happy to help if you want, bring them on board and they can be, be part of an aspirational society, and he was like, what's that? And I was like, so maybe this won't work. I [00:20:00] think so many people underestimate the power of their five closest people that you spend the most time with. And so in that instance, I think you and I both know the, the power of, of a gym in a gym environment, headphones out, music on, well lit greetings people remembering birthdays, people celebrating birthdays, people celebrating events, retirements, people celebrating whatever birth, birth
Dr MIke T Nelson: community,
Kevin Dineen: right? Community. Right. There's a, there's a key component there, and I like that. The fact that the, the, the personal trainer has access to the clientele, right?
Two to three hours a week. It's a remarkable amount of time that you spend with people. If you compare the average person who goes to a physician for eight, it's not even, not even close, but this is where I'm going. I believe that the model of the access only, if you took a 5,000 square foot gym and the doctor had an office there, okay, maybe, maybe they're an orthopedic physical therapist, had an office there, charge [00:21:00] access to that gym, right?
But everybody's in there. Massage therapy, physical therapy, occupational therapy. You get maybe a staff of six. We're not talking like, 30 people on staff, right? You get somebody at the front desk, they're also doing billing maybe whatever. And you don't need the, the numbers that you think you do in order to make, $10 million.
But I think that that model to be able to serve the client at the highest level, to your point of being the trainer centered, I'm going to back up and say, let's still make it the client centered and say, let's get 200 people. If you had two trainers, okay, let's call it seven hour shifts. Six hour shifts, all right?
You have the morning shift and the evening shift, right? Then two hour break in the middle of the day for whatever. But if you, if you built this model and you said you have a morning person and an evening person, a strength coach that walks around, fix things, fix things, fix things, and everyone's got their own routine, that's, that's that the doctor's also checking off.
Now, this is where it's going to, is you're also this person. If you have, let's call it a hundred clients, [00:22:00] and they're all on a six week basis, all right? You have a weekly meeting with your staff. Everyone's gonna be talked about at one point or time or another who's, who's dealing with so and so, who's dealing with this problem?
Who's dealing with how can we get this better? Should we be changing? The suitcase carries to palms open? Should we do be doing like, like little questions, right? That can yield big like little hinges swing big doors. And I think the power of the, that sort of community, because then, then what happens, and I've seen this from the small group setting, is that the sandbox tends to be, oh, I like what they're doing.
Should I be doing that? Oh, good question. I don't think so. But let me, let me see. Lemme watch you do this real quick. Got it. Okay. You know what? I have another exercise for you. And because of that, the, the headphones out because of that, the aspirational society where every arising tide lifts all boats, I think that you provide, and this is why I truly believe in the semi-private model, but I think you, you [00:23:00] provide the client the highest level of they feel like they can always grab that low hanging fruit. Right. And we can be honest with them and be like, you can do that. You got this right. Versus like, sometimes the trainer's like, no, no, no, you're good, you're good. Or the trainer's like, yeah we're just gonna do this. Or like, you're always saying, let's go one step further.
And that sort of supervision from a orthopedic I, I, I, I don't know how that business does less than 5 million a year. They would kill it with six people, seven people on staff.
Dr MIke T Nelson: What do you think for, if someone's listening to this, what do you think the cost of someone to be a member at a facility like that would be?
And I know you've got two locations and it's highly location specific, but what, yeah, what would your back of the envelope thing, if I'm, I'm Karen and I want to join the gym, like how much is this gonna cost me?
Kevin Dineen: So funny. I have three Karens that are members.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Poor Karen just gets thrown under the [00:24:00] bus all the time.
Kevin Dineen: I know. Well, and to your point, it it is rent specific, it is location
Dr MIke T Nelson: specific. Oh, there's a lot of variables.
Kevin Dineen: Yeah. I look, I think if it's, if it's access only and then, I think anywhere between 500 and a thousand dollars a month.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: But, but I, I, I don't think that's a lot. And I, and I say this because I've, I've, I've seen the spending habits of the richest people in the world and it's, they actually spend on, they can spend a lot on their health.
Some just choose not to. So I think, I think when you start to say from a, a team perspective, this is where the best in the world do this, this is where the, the, the, and the people like you do things like that. Being able to walk into a facility where you feel like, oh, they are me, right? Or this is the person like me.
Or like, you know what Rick Mayo's done with Alloy is say that this is the plus 40 crowd. So, so while we can argue that it's 50% of society, he still did it and said, yeah, yeah, [00:25:00] this is the plus 40 crowd. Right? So he's literally going for people who don't want to go full speed and are not gonna sign up for High Rocks and they're not gonna right.
Tho, those people have no interest in that stuff. So the the, the ability to identify your niche and to say, this is who we serve at the highest level. I think is, is a superpower as a coach and the ability for you to, to network and to learn and to, one of the greatest things I've been able to tap into here in St.
Louis and I did this in New York too, was to be able to, to network laterally with people that are not in my, in my field. So business owners and, and physical therapists and chiropractors, because the best ones will say, I don't know. Here's, I'm gonna send 'em to you, or vice versa, or, right. And that's the thing is like the, the community component, I think is the, the one thing I talked about the, the, the downside of society right now is that we're, we tend to be so siloed, but the community factor, I [00:26:00] think is, is a really, really powerful weapon when you know how to, how to use it.
And so, I think CrossFit does it extraordinarily well. People.
People, shy on CrossFit and, and from a, a training perspective, they do leave a lot on the table. But what they do for community, they give you access. And a lot of people do want to work out right? 3, 4, 5 times a week. There's questions on the backend, but it's, it's, they get people in there.
So it's a from a a, a business model perspective, I think it's a fascinating question. If you gave me five minutes, I could probably we could pause for a station identification. I could probably give you the model. When I was in New York, I used to have to do that when I had one location and I was looking for my second, I would literally put in the demographics and the psychographics based on the US Postal Service and find out how much that neighborhood made before I made a decision.
And some of the neighborhoods. They didn't make enough money, to support the model, right? The average cost of personal training in that neighborhood. I was able to, to, to Google it at that time and then say, all right, put it into the [00:27:00] spreadsheet. Huh. And this doesn't make enough money. So yeah, we have a, we have so much data at our fingertips.
Now the question is, and this is, this is a, a wearables, you have all sorts of technology that you use now, but the question is, is, which, which data do we wanna use to, to, like I said about the, the small hinges swing big doors to, to, to pull those levers.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. And even on the low end, if you say 500 a month, I think at, for some people at face value, they're like, oh my God, that's insane.
I could never afford that. But if you go down the road from where I live now to the lifetime, and you walk in, I think their membership is actually even closed now. I wanna say it's two 50 a month. I could find a whole bunch of CrossFit gyms that are easily 200 a month for just, and that's just the gym.
Like that's not adding anything else. That is just, that's that training. That's not anything that's literally just access to a standard, very nice gym or community. So I think you could make a very good argument of when you add other things on [00:28:00] to that and then you realize how much money, people spend in other areas, it, it becomes very easy to justify that as an investment to more people than what it appears like I would say at, at first, first blush.
Kevin Dineen: I, I think your, your point is spot on, and I think a lot of people also. The, the downside too is that so many people want it right now.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Oh
Kevin Dineen: yeah. So they're willing to pay for people promising the right now.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yep.
Kevin Dineen: I had a, an unfortunate instance where a client was sold here in St. Louis. They were sold on a, a supplements package.
Dr. Mike, if I told you how much they were paying in supplements, you'd fall outta your chair. And, and they, they originally, they told me that they wanted to switch from three times a week to twice. And I said, is the training not meeting your goals? And they said, no, I'm starting this program with Soandso.
And I said, what program? And they, they told me, and I was [00:29:00] like, you're paying $900 a month for supplements. For supplements. And I was like, and I pulled it up and, our friend Dr. Cassandra Forsyth, and yeah. I said, is this right? And she was like and so, I, I think a lot of people confuse the pyramid.
They put the supplements at the bottom.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah,
Kevin Dineen: yeah. They forget about the movement. They forget about the, the, this is going back to Peter at Thiel. Let's give him credit again. Right. He's messaging about protein and about, metabolism and muscle. And again, I work with a large percentage of people between the ages of 50 and 80.
A large percentage. I would say it's probably 70% of my clients. And to their credit, the people that I've been training that were in person that switch to virtual, for instance, they had, the access to all of our equipment in New York. But then they had their home gyms that they built, some of 'em have had up to 20 pound weights.
They need heavier weights. My 82-year-old client the other day, he goes, I'm doing 15 reps. Should I be going up?
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. I
Kevin Dineen: mean, holy smokes. Right? And then you have another client who's like, I'm gonna switch from three times a week to two times [00:30:00] a week. This is going back to your point about the, the lateralization, they're, if the supplement provider doesn't have somebody that they can refer clients to, to build their metabolism.
If we, if we say that they're, they're technically not having that conversation, right? Hey, look, you're not working out. You need to be working out. You're not getting 10,000 steps. You need to be getting 10,000, 7,500, right? Get to 7,500. Okay? If you can't do that, you can get a recumbent bike. Let's get your heart rate.
Let's track your heart rate a thousand dollars on supplements per month for three months. This is the cost of living. The cost of living here in St. Louis isn't that expensive. That's a lot of money,
Dr MIke T Nelson: right?
Kevin Dineen: So I think people are sold on these false delusions of grandeur. I love that phrase. And, and I think it's, it's an important thing for us to, again, learn about the perils of, of the industry, is that some people will sell you on these promises of, supplements will fix things.
And it's like your, your [00:31:00] foundational principles. Let's go back to the, to the, the, the business model, your foundational principles of coming into the gym and working out two to three times a week cooking 80% of your meals, right. Getting your 7,500 steps a day, however you get it, if it's on the treadmill, fine.
Right. Getting your cardiovascular activity up, learning what a heart rate monitor can do to teach you with the comfortability of zones. Right. You could do your meathead cardio course, hint, hint. Right.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Make you,
Kevin Dineen: And, and, but there's, but there's so many ways that we could work laterally together to, to, to save the client.
Most people don't need, a thousand dollars in supplements. Pro athletes don't take a thousand dollars in supplements. So I, again, I go back to the clients first and, and I feel bad for people who are sold on these these models and there's, there's a lot of people making so much money.
A lot of people here in St. Louis are afraid of big pharma, and I, I tend to remind them that big wellness is profiting off of them. Right, right. We know it's, it's three times as big and there's nobody, there's nobody governing it. And everyone's [00:32:00] here is afraid of, of Diet Coke. And I'm like, look guys, the, the, the science doesn't it?
The science is what it is. And if you don't wanna believe it, then that's up to you. But I'm gonna be honest with you, if you want my opinion on some things, and I have people like our networking group, our mastermind group, they're the best in the world. Right? And Dr. Mike, you and I both know, like, that's one of, one of the things about our group is they have the ability to be honest.
Dr MIke T Nelson: And
Kevin Dineen: when you have these people that can be brutally honest with you, this is where I go back to serving the client. I can tell 'em, Hey, you know what, you're, you're going all out on cardio right? In this class that you're going to, and there's no way that you're able to actually maintain 90% heart rate.
What else are you doing? Yeah. Oh, oh, you're on, on medication. Oh, okay. And you're also taking a Celsius three minutes before class. Oh, okay. So you're having 200 milligrams of, I think it's 160 milligrams of caffeine in three minutes. Okay. Got it. Got it. I wonder why your heart rate's so high. I wonder why you're always tired.
Huh? Interesting. Those espresso martinis, you always [00:33:00] post on social media also, right? Like, like the ability to influence our clients comes from the ability to ask better questions and to have them in your environment. Going back to the business model, the longer that you're, you're in someone's environment, the more that you have the opportunity to help change them.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. And even in that person, like I've done consult calls with people who are like, oh, well I can't really afford a rover. And then you do the breakdown and it's like you were spending one case $500 a month on, this is not whey protein and fish oil. This is absolute crap from God knows what company. Two months of that, you could buy a rower.
You would literally probably have the rest of your life, and, and I get a lot of it is in education. A lot of it is, they believe a lot of the hype, we've both been around long enough to see. Supplement trends come and go and come again. Like now we're seeing creatine plus HMB.
It's like, oh my God, how many freaking times does [00:34:00] HMB have to come around again? And the data on it is just extremely non impressive, unless you're an elderly person on a very low protein diet. As a supple manufacturer, you can try to get more money and hype people into this is like the next greatest thing.
And yeah, as, as much as I love, the training, the nutrition world and metabolism, and even supplements when they're appropriately used, if you really pushed me and said, okay, here's your options. You can either have really, really good training and movement or really good nutrition what would you pick?
I would actually pick movement. I think you can, from experiments I've done on myself and other clients, if you had to pick one in the other, if you're movement and exercise and everything is really dialed in. It's shocking how poorly you can eat like a raccoon with a wifi account for a while and still make it a and still be, okay.
I'm not recommending this. I'm not saying you should do this. I'm just saying if it's an [00:35:00] or question, and the reality is it's an and question. You should be doing both. I would actually pick movement, and I think that's probably shocking to people, which goes back to your point of if you're not getting those basic movement things done, like you're leaving a huge amount of potential on the table.
Kevin Dineen: I have another story similar to this. A client yesterday was saying, she ate something before her workout. And I was like, why is that a problem? She goes, well, I, I have to get a blood test after this. And I said, well, you can't get a blood test after this.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: She goes, no, no, no. I know, I, I, because I ate and I was supposed to fast, and I said, no, because you can't get a blood test right after your workout.
She goes, why not? And this is, this is the point, right? If the, if the, the health practitioner is right next door, who's taking your blood? They know to tell the client don't work out.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: The same day you get a blood test. Right. So this, this, I, I, I struggle, because I want to be like, this is so obvious, but it's not because the, they, they're in a silo.
Why would they know to tell that you, [00:36:00] if you're 68 years old to not, to not work out that day, you don't think that the, the person in front of you works out if you're, especially in the winter here, it's et cetera. You're in, you're bundled up and you're in clothes. And our client looks like she works out.
But I think you don't think as a, a, a medical practitioner, if you're not in a, in a fitness facility, you don't think that the, the person in front of you works out. Right. You're the, the chances if you're guessing are on the other side. So,
Dr MIke T Nelson: And how often have you seen blood work that the patient has gone down?
And referraled to the kidney specialist to, more testing all. I didn't have clients as far as going to ultrasound off of a lab reading with some wonky kidney readings, and they were a pretty high level athlete and went and beat the shit out of themselves, like literally 12 hours before their testing.
The physician didn't ask, Hey, did you exercise yesterday? What did you do? Like some of your markers, CK and other ones are really [00:37:00] high in their world. They're used to seeing that associated with someone who doesn't exercise. So they're obviously thinking, oh my God, it's gotta be a kidney issue.
Again, back to the, the differences in, in population where if you have someone who's, part of a facility where people are exercising, like you said, it becomes almost a, I don't wanna say a no brainer, but it becomes part of. The policy becomes part of the protocol instead of having everything managed independently, a lot of times a person getting the blood work, they don't know either, and so now you're off, chasing all these other things. It could just be confirmed with a simple blood test and just don't exercise for 24 to 48 hours.
Kevin Dineen: The longer that you are, I said this, this is the second time different way. The longer that you are exposed to the, the way things could be, the more that you're convinced that this is the way it should be.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: Right. And so for instance, I didn't do blood panels before. Like I didn't, and then I went to the Silverback and I talked with Ally and Ally's like, [00:38:00] no, here's how this should be. This is the range. Here's, here's, here's where you should be, here's where you should be, here's where you should be. It's the same for business.
It's the same for, right? Like if you're, if you're working in a restaurant, you, the, the beauty about the restaurant is that they have to teach you where the salt goes and the, the book setting the table, there's a salt shaker on there, right? Because they, the, the expression was is you have to teach the waiter that this is where the salt goes on the table seven times before they get it.
And so similarly, I think we forget when we're working with clients and when we're maybe a little soft on ourselves, but we forget. But then we have to be reminded by somebody. We have to be in that community. We have to be in that society around us. We have to be surrounded by people that wanna go, Hey, idiot, come here.
Let me pull you out of this little hole you're in 'cause you're struggling right now. Let me help. Right? We have people that are in our, our circle right now that wanna see us win. The value of that, Dr. Mike is. What's, what's the value? [00:39:00] If you're surrounded by people, if you put yourself in a fitness facility where they only wanna see you win, they don't care what it looks like, whether it's once a week, whether it's five times a week, how often should people change up their workout?
I'm working with a couple clients right now who are three times a week, and they were only strength training, no cardio. Guess what we're doing? We're doing a little bit of hybrid. And, and guess what we're, where we're going is that they're gonna have custom cardio programs come four to six weeks because of the fact that they're, they're ready for that little phase change.
And then, then, I told somebody the other day, I said, the best bodybuilders in the world are in a calorie deficit for eight to 12 weeks a year. They said, how's that possible? I'm in a calorie deficit every day. I said, oh, really? Oh, really? So I think, I think the, the being in and surrounded by people who want you to win, it's just the, it's priceless.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. And I think you're just being in that environment. You're exposed to other options. One of the things I, I did early on and then stopped [00:40:00] doing was, was blood work stuff. I did it many years ago, as soon as the legislation allowed people to get their own private blood work. I'm in Minnesota.
And then I actually stopped doing it because I got nervous. I'm like I don't really know if I'm looking at, and so then I'm like, I need to be more educated, blah, blah, blah. And I stopped doing it part of it because I didn't want the liability or anything else. And I ended up, started doing it again probably six years ago now, maybe probably around there.
And the main reason I started doing it was simply, and it was mostly guys who I talked to 'em and like, Hey man, on the intake stuff, when's the last time you had blood work? I don't know. Do you even know the name of your physician? Like, you can't even, you're, you're 45 and you can't even remember the last time you got blood work.
I'm like, okay, you should go to your doc, get blood work. I, I don't even know who my doc is. Like, and then, and so I tried to get these people to go through all the hoops to do it, and it was, it was virtually impossible. [00:41:00] So I gave in and said, okay, fuck it. I'll here, you pay for this, you can send it. If you wanna send it to me to look at for performance metrics, I'm not trying to be your physician.
And even then, like the amount of times you'd find weird stuff where you're like, okay, this is well outside my wheelhouse, but I know this is something you need to look at, and here is the marker and here's why. And then they're like, oh, oh, okay. Then the shocker, they'd actually go find a physician and get it looked at.
So I was like, crap. This is probably an add-on service I need to provide just because if I. Don't how many years is gonna go by before they do nothing. And then I felt I could have done something. And then a few times you actually find stuff, and obviously you can find stuff in blood work, you can't find any other metrics.
Yeah, it's, but I think if they weren't in that environment or they weren't working with me or they weren't in the gym that you're at, they wouldn't know that these other things are possible. They don't have someone there being like, Hey man, like [00:42:00] you really need to look at this, or you really need to look at that.
Like your trick knee should not still be a trick niche seven years later. I don't care what party tricks it's doing. Right. But a lot of times people will just normalize things because they literally don't know any different.
Kevin Dineen: I, I think I was actually thinking about that driving home from the gym this morning that telling somebody that it's okay, like should be reserved for like.
Toddlers.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: Like, like, like, let's, let's just be honest. If, if you, and that's it. Like, let's just be honest with each other. I think the, the leveling up we do it in video games, right? You don't wanna just play the first level and then be done. You're like, I wanna, I wanna learn where's Bowser? I wanna beat Bowser.
Right? Oh, I remember that. That's a good reference. Right? Right. And nobody, nobody wants to just beat the, the first turtle like, you wanna Okay. That was easy. I got it. Yeah. But you have to, so you, there's, you can, you can do two things in the same, in the [00:43:00] same sentence. You can give people a quick win. Okay.
Show them what they're good at, show them what they need to improve. I think Greg Rose from TPI does a remarkable job with this, right? He, he'll ask the client, he say, what's your superpower? And then they'll tell 'em, and then he'll find out, well, we can do this, and then what do we do this? And, and when you start to see, I use this with my golfers too, and clients, but like, they have a superpower.
They do, they usually do, do they have things they can work on? Sure. But like. And you can say, you, here's your superpower. You like deadlifting, let's, let's deadlift, but we also have to fix your squat pattern, right? Otherwise you're gonna have continuous low back, especially after your golf rounds. But why is that?
Well, because your golf is, you, we can go down this rabbit hole, but nobody cares. I think the, the ability to be honest with somebody is, is remarkable. So but it takes a certain level of, of trust and respect. And so, like you said, when you're, as you're going through your career to be able to be honest with people and you know the bros better than anybody, right?[00:44:00]
It to be able to to do that, I think it does take a little time. People trust you. People trust Dr. Mike. They know Dr. Mike, Dr. Mike has been in the industry for X amount of years. Your second year out, they're probably gonna be like this doe-eyed kid. What is he now?
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah, yeah.
Kevin Dineen: But like, but you, you, you have so much credibility behind you.
You have so much. Experience. And then from that you're able to help people and people around you, people in your circle so that they can help their clients. So yeah, if we didn't have Dr. Mike in our circle, what would most of our clients know that they need to spend, you know you know, a thousand dollars on supplements.
Probably not, so the, the having the people in your corner and your circle, right? Is, is that that who can be honest with you? That's, that's a, that's a remarkable opportunity. So thank thank Coach Ka for that.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah, and I had a client just the other day, we did a bunch of assessments and did everything and, she's kinda having, low energy and a bunch of other stuff going on and had her do a [00:45:00] VO two max test, usually 2K on the rower.
She's like, oh my god, my, my VO O2 max is so low. And she was feeling, bad about it. And I'm like, yes, it is low. Yes, it is poor. But the pro is two things. One, it's trainable that, not that we're gonna fix it in two weeks, but it's gonna be months, but it is extremely trainable with the right programming, the right, things, it'll definitely get better.
In every case I've ever worked with, it's gotten a lot better. And then two, the pro is this fits the story that we had hypothesized before we did the assessment of what we think is going on. And then shocker, you do tests to see if your hypothesis is correct or not. And everything fit the story.
I said the good part is this all fits the story that we have going forward, which makes me feel pretty confident that once we address these things, you're definitely gonna be moving in the right direction. I said I would actually feel a lot worse if it came back. That tra Review two max is freaking amazing because now that's a kink in the story.
We [00:46:00] gotta do some other testing and look at some other things to see, what's going on. Just like Oh, oh, okay. But I think you can, to your point, you can. Deliver assessments and deliver things that are honest. At the same time. It doesn't have to be a negative versus if I just told her, I'm like, oh yeah, it's okay.
You'll be fine. And then what is, if she's training for the next six months and she's like, I, this is stupid. I spent six months of training, I still feel the same way I did before. That's even, that's way worse. Instead of just, telling 'em honestly what's going on up front and here's our solution to fix it.
Kevin Dineen: Yeah. I, I think it's if you're in that room, right? Like, like think for instance, if we did a one month mastermind where everyone was in St. Louis, this would be fun. Everyone was in St. Louis for a month. What would happen? Like, let's just pick any city. We're all in. Mastermind said one month we're gonna all do a one month sabbatical.
What would happen? And I think, I think people, [00:47:00] people, what's that phrase? They underestimate how much, or they overestimate how much they can do in a day and underestimate how much they can do in a year.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yep.
Kevin Dineen: And I think it's, it's just a powerful phrase and a powerful reminder for people. People just want to, to jump to that conclusion that it must be more complicated than that.
I must, I must do the thing that I was told, I must increase my mitochondrial efficiency. And I was, I was like, you're, you're you, you literally are making it more complicated. You don't get 10,000 steps. You don't lift weights. This isn't hard. Like it's difficult to convince you that it is.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yes.
Kevin Dineen: But the, the things that, that I think people, I get a lot of knee and hip replacements, right?
So I, I have to deal with convincing them like, Hey, you're not done. Like, you're not, you don't, you're not per, you're not excused from lifting lower body the rest of your life. That's, you're 55 or you're 60. Like,
Dr MIke T Nelson: yeah,
Kevin Dineen: you got a long time. You wanna golf, you wanna pick up your golf ball outta your hole.
You wanna get one of those stupid putter things where you pull the ball outta, I'm, I'm not even joking. This is Yeah, this is, but this is, this is where we are, is [00:48:00] I ask people that question. I say, how serious is this? And they, they usually look at me like, what do you mean? I say, well, how serious do you take this?
And they're like, I golf four times a week. I'm like, okay, you didn't answer my question.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah, yeah.
Kevin Dineen: Right. They don't, they don't know because it's not normal. It's not normal that that somebody's gonna ask them 30 questions yesterday, for instance. It's another good example. The guy says, I, I have, bad feeling in my, in my hands or low feeling in my hands in the morning.
Huh. Okay. Tell me what, what, when, what makes it better? Nothing. I've tried everything, huh? Okay. Medication you've taken. Yeah. Okay. Shoulders. Yeah. I've had multiple label tears. Former baseball player, high level baseball player, former bodybuilder. Lot of, lot of lot of supplements back in the day.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Kevin Dineen: I, I said, any neck pain? He goes, oh yeah, I had a C five, C six way, way back. Like, you could have led with that pal. Yeah.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Oh, yeah.
Kevin Dineen: And then I said, turn your, can you turn your chin to your shoulder on both sides? And he's got a, he's got a completely different thing. And he said, well, how would you fix that?
How do you fix the neck? I said, you don't, [00:49:00] they already tried to do that, but you have to do something else. You have to get your shoulder mobility, you have to get your TPI mobility. You have to address your hip mobility. Oh yeah. My hip's killing me. Well, yeah, yeah. Now everything's starting to make sense.
You tried everything except for the thing that's most obvious. Our friend John Goodman, his book is called The Obvious Choice.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: It's, it's so. It's such a remarkable phrase because that's the thing that people are reluctant to do. Right? The thing that's most in front of you, the thing that you're so close to, just, you know how many people have gyms in their basement or equipment in their basement and they don't use it because it is right there, it's right in front of 'em, but they're like, ah, I need more than that.
Have you done it? Have you done anything? Mm. So yeah, convincing people to grab that low hanging fruit. I said that before, but I think that's the, that's the beauty of having people who are doing it in your, in your circle, right? People, the doers are probably under, under heralded in our society, right?
Because there are people who are much louder. They have a much louder megaphone. They're very, very good [00:50:00] at marketing, very, very good at saying this is, this is the way when in fact, you and I both know that the people that are doing. Probably have the, the smallest voices because they're so busy doing, but they don't have a marketing budget.
They don't have the, that background. If, if, if you and I had a marketing team, of call it $5,000 a month, right? What could, what, what, what would happen if we had a marketing intern from the University of, or from Wharton University or Wharton School of Business? What would happen? Right.
But that's the thing. So yeah, it's a, it's a remarkable time for people to, to have that, that amplification. But also if you're not, if you're not careful, if you're not surrounded by people who can discern for you, it's a remarkable time to also be sold things. So yeah, you have to be careful.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. Because I think people don't realize, like some of the biggest names, at least in the fitness world for online stuff. Shocker. They don't train people anymore. And then some of 'em haven't for years, and all they do is content [00:51:00] and a lot of content and have teams, they pay many thousands of dollars to help them do content and marketing.
And for example, I won't say their names, but texted a buddy the other day and I'm like, Hey, why is this one certification guy? Like how I saw their actual numbers? I'm like, how do they get that many people in their certification? And he told me, he is like, oh, well they have an ad spend of a hundred thousand dollars a month.
I was like, oh, okay. That'll help.
And I was just thinking, because I was looking at all the other channels and stuff like this, none of this adds up. So again, a lot of times that's what you're competing against and what's obvious also to one person is not obvious to the next person.
Right. So like, whether your client. It is obvious to you because you've done it a lot. You know what it is. But it's just human nature to rationalize things because, and they usually rationalize 'em away because they can't see [00:52:00] how they would be coordinated or how they would be associated. So the default is, well, they're not associated then, and the further apart things get, the harder I think it is to associate them. So the craziest quick story I had is years ago, a person was running the Olympics. She got my name in number, was in Minnesota, shows up on my doorstep. She's like, yeah, I can't roll all the way up on my right. Big toe, extreme amount of pain.
She had seen, everyone in her country had seen everyone for a year and a half. Best friend ran competitively with her. She had surgery, never ran competitively again. So she's like, I don't want surgery. Long story short, do all the movement stuff, look at everything. Got all the way out to her left thumb.
I'm like, do this. Just move the end of your left thumb for me. And I, I did it as like, okay, we're as far out at the end of the spectrum from the back force transmission line, and she's staring at her thumb and it's like literally not moving. So we spent like 15, 20 minutes of getting her to [00:53:00] move just the end joint in her thumb.
She does that. She rolls all the way up on her right big toe without pain. She's like, oh my God, this is so crazy. And even myself, like years ago, I would've never thought that something that disparate from each other was related. But you start doing stuff long enough, you can see associations other people haven't because of experience and knowledge and and other things.
So I think that's why, again, back to having other people, having professionals, being around them, knowing that there are possible solutions and knowing where to look again, is like super critical.
Kevin Dineen: It's, that phrase, it's always the last place you'll look when you're looking for something.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: Well, it's, it's very obvious, right? Because you stop looking. But it's the same thing with, with us, right? The, the last place that you would've thought Right. But you were checking off the list. Right. So the place that you're last left your glasses, you still have to check, here's where I leave them.
Right. But you have one spot that you might've put it in.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yep.
Kevin Dineen: Right? So that's what [00:54:00] you do. And I think I had a similar story where I had a he's actually a chiropractor and a tremendous amount of low back pain. Couldn't lift, couldn't lift at all. Big runner though. Big runner say that. All right, let see you do a side plank.
I can't do that. Say it again. A side plank. By the end of the session, not only they doing in side plank, by the end of them working with us for, roughly a year, they're deadlifting like their body weight and, six reps, no problem.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Nice.
Kevin Dineen: The, the question wasn't, where is your pain?
It's, it's going back to that lowest common denominator and meeting that person. Going back to being honest where they are and they weren't necessarily ready. I did a full assessment. It was like a staff meeting. I did a full assessment on them and I was, I was shocked, but also tried to empower them to give them the, the tools right then, right there on what they were feeling and what they were doing.
And the difference between, different side planks. Everyone can do some sort of side plank. So show me the movement, show me that where you are, and then I'll teach you how we go from there.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah, yeah. [00:55:00] Back to potential solutions. Do you, I know one of the arguments that's been brought up and other people and other groups have tried this, of the idea of licensing.
I feel like in, even in exercise physiology, there is no licensing for exercise physiologists. There are maybe adjacent programs if you're doing cardiac rehab or other things like that. There's no board to pass. There's none of those things. And it feels like in the medical world, without those things, you're never treated very seriously.
Like the amount of times this has gotten better over the last few years that remember years ago I did a talk for registered dieticians and you get to see the critiques at the end. Most of 'em are all positive, but there was four that were like, this guy's not an rd. How dare he talk to us and tell us about nutrition.
I'm like, but I did my PhD in metabolism. So like, yeah, I have half an [00:56:00] idea of, what's going on. And I had all the research clearly laid out. I had everything referenced and stuff. But it feels like without that licensing, the medical world has no idea where to put you. And then. You fast forward into the trainer world and it's like a, a free for all.
Like you could be someone who's doing this as a profession and spent, a decade, two decades in it like yourself to someone who's like, I don't know man, I just needed to make more money so I took this, six hours certain, now I'm a trainer. What are your thoughts on that? And my biased opinion real quick is I agree with the licensing thing and it would be nice, but I don't know that opens up all of its own issues, but it does feel like it would be a way to give some legitimacy, but I'm not sure it's worth the trade off of all the other issues you would encounter.
Kevin Dineen: I'm honestly not familiar with it. But I will say this the, the value of. Our skillset and [00:57:00] being exposed to somebody who can help fix motion from the ankle through the wrist to the thumb.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: I had we're getting at our facility here in St. Louis, we're getting two of the toilets fixed.
Said, how long will this take an hour tops, Mike? The bill is $700.
Right? But it's a half hour there. It's a half hour back to the shop. Right? So it's technically two hours. But that's not the question. Right. It's not the question of whether or not we're gonna do it. Eventually you're gonna need it. That's the thing. Right? If, if everybody knew. This skillset then going back to your point, then it wouldn't be a specialty.
You wouldn't need the plumber. Everybody would know, but we're not taught this thing. We're not taught how to move. We're not taught, and, and even in the training world, how to be professional. Right. And what's your certification? Is it in hospitality and being respectful? Is it ing professionally? I talk about this all the time.
I've put this out multiple times, that there's a massive difference between a trainer and a coach. And the internet goes nuts. I had a [00:58:00] hundred thousand views on a threads post where I outlined the difference between a way a trainer and a coach speak to their client. And people, people were like, no, no, no, that's, you're so belittling, you're so demeaning.
And I was like, I'm sorry that I, I hurt your feelings, but this is objectively the difference. And so, whether you have A-C-S-C-S or whether you have a a four year degree, the level of professionalism that we can both agree. Is needed to deal and to work with our clients can always go up.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: So I'm, I'm with the, the, let's, let's take the industry to the moon because of the fact that we're with people two to three hours a week.
This is also going back to your, to your question, if I'm surrounded by people who are more professional and, and have better degrees and, and orthopedics or, or, or orthopedic surgeon or a, a physical therapist, if I'm surrounded by those individuals, I can't settle. I can't. So I only have to, [00:59:00] to lift and to go higher.
If I'm at a training facility, for instance, in New York, that only is personal trainers and there's no certification required at the door. Ours is, and there's no certification required at the door, and you can just come in and train your clients and you can pay a flat rate. Right. And it's the wild, wild west.
It's a very, very different business model. You're still serving the client, but I would argue at what level. So if we all say collectively that we are gonna put the industry as a whole on a higher level, we have to dress professionally. We have to act professionally. We can't be saying four letter words to our clients.
We can't be telling Linda exactly what happened on our vacation last week when we went skiing. And they can't, they can't take the majority of our session. I think before we take a look at the, the licensing of all this, we need to have a, a cold, hard look at the industry as a whole. And this isn't negative, Nancy.
This is somebody who was 21, 21 years in the business, used to work at Equinox, that place, talk about Wild West. And that was a place that said they had systems.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah.
Kevin Dineen: And I'd be the first place, I'd be the first one to tell you that [01:00:00] there's, there's no system in place at Equinox Fitness. And so I think it's, it's, it's so hard to say what would be the solution, but I think if, if we all said collectively, let's, like, by the way the.
He was in a polo shirt.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Mm.
Kevin Dineen: I go back to this, but dress prof dressing professionally is the minimum. That's the minimum. Not a tank top, not a wifebeater. Right? Like, like, nope. You need to dress professionally. And people get so upset, like, ah, well, okay. I'm like, okay. Like you do, you pal. But I want the industry as a whole to be paid more than $30 an hour.
I do. Yeah. That's, that's, that's like fault fault me. Right? And so do you, you know that Yeah. Like, we want our people to be paid well, we want the, the people who are so passionate. Imagine having a, a restaurant friend that loves to cook one of the best chefs in the world, but they refuse to learn about business.
[01:01:00] What's gonna happen to the restaurant? Right. It's not gonna work. And so I think that happens to so many people who are so passionate about health and fitness and they try to put their best foot forward, but they don't know the business side and they refuse to learn the business side. So what do they do?
I couldn't there's no not enough demand. There's always enough demand. I'm not in a big town here in St. Louis and there's a, there's a large demand for people that want the same thing that my clients want.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. It reminds me, 10 years ago I hired a business coach. This is 10 years ago, and I didn't have a ton of money at the time.
I was going back to school, was just finishing up working in the med tech industry part-time. I think I hired him in 2012 actually. But paid him $2,500 a month to help me with business. Do a few things on the backend, on the website. And the thing that got me the most was he's like, okay, so you wanna do this as a full-time business?
You monetarily you're not doing great. How much time do you spend learning about business? I'm like, [01:02:00] I don't know, like an hour or two a week. He's like, how much time do you spend reading physiology? I'm like, oh, I do this shit all the time. He is like, and you're expecting to get better at business. He's like, how much more physiology do you need to learn to service the average client?
Like, oh, probably not a whole lot more, and I was like, oh, oh, crap. Like,
Yeah. He's like, even if you just get a little bit better at what you're doing, like you'll be, much better off. I was like, oh, oh yeah, good. Good point. Yeah, okay, here's your money. But it was super helpful and the biggest thing he helped me with was just, again, back to simple stuff, communication.
Like you, the biggest thing I learned was like, you are not your client. Like by all means, do all the things, like get better at your craft. Like there, there'll never be an end to that, but most people are not doing that. They're expecting you to translate that into the thing that is actionable and the thing that they can do.
And a language they can understand, so I think back to like, trainers, it's like the minimum bar is like if you work in a facility where you're [01:03:00] seeing people every day, shocker, you probably have to dress professionally, act professionally. It's beyond, you're not just a glorified rep counter, and I think that is, if I fast forward even a couple years, I do think that is the next level. Like I've even said this in an online environment, like if you are not at a base level offering exercise and nutrition, you, you're already lost. Like that is the absolute base. Like the next level would be some monitoring, some biofeedback, some sleep, some lifestyle option to do blood work, whether you do it or you have a service that does it like those very quickly, I'd say by the end of 2026, those are gonna be the new minimums.
And I, I think it's good that the bar keeps going up and up because hopefully to your point. People who do that role will actually be treated as a true professional. And I think that will help bring the entire industry up and it will no longer be acceptable for you to even think about running [01:04:00] a business with people that just did a weekend cert.
Like that thought won't even enter your head because there's no way you would even stay in business for like two days.
Kevin Dineen: Yep. I'm on board. Let's do it.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Appreciate it. We're gonna be able to find out more about you. I know you've got some stuff on social media. I know you've got the two gym locations. Yeah, tell us both the in-person stuff, if they're around your area and the online stuff.
Kevin Dineen: Yeah, so Coach Denine on Instagram and then structure PF is the New York Gym structure, CCSP.
I have a, a partner here who is a chiropractor, in St. Louis. So if you're in St. Louis or if you're in New York, you wanna come for a workout you want to come do a 2K road test with me, we'll come back. There you go And see who's, who's Good Times, who is, yeah. That's the worst test. But yeah, those are the, those are the three places I post the most.
I had 93 pieces of content in November. Hope to beat that in December. So yeah, try to serve those [01:05:00] that community well. And yeah, I appreciate your time and, you've had so many great people on here. It's it, I'm, I'm, I'm really, surrounded by, and I've stood on the shoulders of giants.
So it's fun to be to chat with you today, Dr. Mike.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Yeah, always fun chatting with you and hope to see you again in person sometime soon and in 2026.
Kevin Dineen: Love it.
Dr MIke T Nelson: Cool. Thanks buddy. Appreciate it.
Kevin Dineen: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Really appreciate it. Huge thanks to Kevin for coming down the podcast and sharing all his knowledge and experience over the years. Really, really appreciate it. I'd be curious, what do you guys think of this? Please contact either one of us or put up a post with the episode and your thoughts.
Uh, 'cause I do think it is an important discussion, especially going forward. As always, thank you so much for listening to the podcast. We really [01:06:00] appreciate it. If you want more from Kevin, make sure to check out all of his great stuff. We'll put links down below. If you want more stuff from me, you can hop on to the free newsletter on the Fitness Insider and we'll have that link down below for you.
Also, daily content going out to you completely free. Try to make them as entertaining and useful as possible. So thank you once again for listening to the podcast. We really, really appreciate it. If you could do us a favor and hit the old subscribe and download and likes and whatever, all the crazy things that make the algorithm super happy so we can keep continuing to get more wonderful guests like this.
If you have even an extra 30 seconds, if you can leave us a review. Reviews are super, super important. Again, to keep the old algorithms happy. So thank you so much for listening to the podcast. We really appreciate it. Much more stuff coming up. As always, next week we'll see you then. Take care.
[01:07:00] What do you suppose they call that? A novelty act? I don't know, but it wasn't too bad. Well, that's a novelty.
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