Getting better doesn't make hard things feel easier—it makes you capable of doing more. Cliff Wilson explains the mental skills behind elite physiques, why context beats internet absolutes, and how great coaches turn research, experience, and failure into better decisions.
Cliff Wilson is a physique coach with over 16 years of experience working with bodybuilders and physique athletes of every level, including 24 world champions and the current natural bodybuilding world champion.
Getting better doesn’t make hard things feel easier—it makes you capable of doing more. Cliff Wilson explains the mental skills behind elite physiques, why context beats internet absolutes, and how great coaches turn research, experience, and failure into better decisions.
Expect to learn why impulse control makes up 20–50% of physique coaching, why you have to learn to dribble before you try to dunk, why practitioners and social media commentators are not the same thing, why getting fitter never makes a true max effort feel easier, how context (not absolutes) explains wildly different carb intakes between world-class physique athletes, why most advanced bodybuilders eventually land back on a bro split, and what separates “collectors” of credentials from coaches who can actually integrate and apply what they know—and much more.
Connect with Cliff:
teamwilsonbb.com (book: Becoming Unrivaled)
Instagram: @cwteamwilson
Raw Intensity app (mentioned in the episode)
Episodes you'll enjoy next:
#323 — Natural vs. Enhanced Bodybuilding: An In-Depth Chat with Aaron Straker: https://flex-diet-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/episode-323-natural-vs-enhanced-bodybuilding-an-in-depth-chat-with-aaron-straker
#167 — The Physiologic and Psychologic Benefit of Doing Hard Things: Akshay Nanavati of Fearvana: https://flex-diet-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/episode-167-the-physiologic-and-psychologic-benefit-of-doing-hard-things-akshay-nanavati-of-fearvana-with-dr-mike-t-nelson
Episode Timestamps:
[00:00:00] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mike T. Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things to increase muscle, improve performance, better your body composition, do all of it in a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today on the podcast, I've got my good buddy, Cliff Wilson.
[00:00:21] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Uh, we haven't talked to Cliff for a while, but we've had a, I'd say, a very philosophical almost like discussion here about bodybuilding and performance. This is what I would say is kind of beyond the simple X's and O's. Everything from being a business owner, generating content, how people think about, uh, problem-solving, what are some things beyond just, uh, lifting and nutrition, which of course we talk about, um, here, uh, mindset, and much more.
[00:00:57] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So overall, this was a super fun conversation with Cliff. Uh, he has worked with primarily physique athletes of all kinds and flavors for over 16 years now. I gave a talk at one of their seminars back almost 11 years ago now about heart rate variability for physique athletes. And so just, uh, chatted with him, you know, before that and kept in touch over the years and was awesome to have him on the podcast.
[00:01:25] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So make sure to check out all the great stuff he's got. Uh, he does have a book coming out, depending upon when this is released. Uh, hopefully that'll be live. If not, it'll be live very soon. I'm super excited about it. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm definitely gonna, uh, pick it up and check it out. He's also got an app and a bunch of great stuff, so make sure to check out all of his stuff there.
[00:01:48] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: If you want more stuff from me, be sure to hop on to the newsletter. Go to miketnelson.com/newsletter. We've got a link, uh, down below somewhere here, and you can hop on to the newsletter for free. Get all the great content delivered directly to your inbox. So without further ado, here is my good buddy, Cliff Wilson.
[00:02:09] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: We're talking about beyond the X's and O's of coaching clients
[00:02:15] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Awesome. Welcome to the podcast, Cliff. How are you?
[00:02:17] Cliff Wilson: I'm good. How about you? Thanks for having me on.
[00:02:20] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.
[00:02:22] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: This is a little note from me behind the scenes that we initially had planned a different conversation here,, but this one worked out so good that I just wanted to roll, directly into it and just give you a heads up on that if it sounds like a harsh transition here. So without further ado, here is our entire chat with Cliff Wilson.
[00:02:45] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: What would you say are kind of, like, the big things to start with?
[00:02:49] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. I, I would say depending on the person, first off, probably 20 to 50% of my job is impulse control.
[00:02:55] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: For sure.
[00:02:56] Cliff Wilson: Um, you know, I, I spent a lot of years about- It, it, you know, in my first few years of coaching, it was I love diet and I love training, and I'm gonna draw great diet programs and training programs.
[00:03:11] Cliff Wilson: And I realized that, you know, maybe 40% of my clients would really thrive 'cause that was, you know, I, I, I felt like I was proficient at that. Um, but then the other 60 would just struggle. The other 60% would just struggle. And I couldn't always put my finger on why. And, um, and then as over the years I've started to realize, well, some of it's psychological.
[00:03:35] Cliff Wilson: You know what I mean? And, and then it's, then it's this other thing. And, and then I started to realize this is bodybuilding. It's, it's different than other sports because on the day of the competition, we aren't doing the thing that we're really judged on. We're judged on our bodies, but the thing we do to build our bodies, we do on our own.
[00:03:54] Cliff Wilson: Um, and I came to the conclusion that like Even if it's not bodybuilding, just physique improvement. Um, like other sports, it is a skill-based endeavor, and these skills are extremely varied, and they have different levels. And so what I mean by that is it's interesting because, you know, my clientele... The other thing that's a little strange, because in coaching bodybuilders, I'm kind of asked to do something that coaches in other sports are not asked to do, and that is coach people at significantly different levels.
[00:04:30] Cliff Wilson: Um, I- I've coached, I've coached 24 world champions in my career now, and right now I coach, I coach the current world champion in natural bodybuilding. And it's funny because sometimes I will coach him through email. So let's say in basketball terms, I'm coaching LeBron James, and then the very next email I'm coaching a first-time competitor who's never competed before and has only been training two years.
[00:04:57] Cliff Wilson: So I'm coaching... In one second I say something to the world champion. You know, it's, would be like asking a basketball coach to be like, "Okay, LeBron, let's do this and let's do that," and then turn around and talk to a seventh grade basketball player. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, so I try to frame it in...
[00:05:16] Cliff Wilson: I ch- it helps me sometimes to frame it in what skill level am I talking to. Um, what skill level... And so you mentioned people seeing somebody on the internet and they said, "I need to do this." In basketball terms, I see some people trying to dunk when they don't even know how to dribble.
[00:05:36] Cliff Wilson: Yeah.
[00:05:36] Cliff Wilson: And, and I'm like, "I want you to develop one skill at a time."
[00:05:42] Cliff Wilson: Like, a lot of times these people on the internet, they will, they will, they'll get really highly focused on some supplement or whatever. And I'm like, you probably... 'Cause in my experience, most people that don't compete, even some people that do, have an incredibly hard time sticking to a caloric prescription for more than three to four days without a deviation.
[00:06:06] Cliff Wilson: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:06] Cliff Wilson: That'll, that's a skill. Do you know what I mean? That little voice in your head when you get hungry, being able to not give into that voice is very much a skill. And so that's a big one right there. You know what I mean?
[00:06:19] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And, and I feel like it's, again, related to that, it's also levels, and like you talked about who is giving the advice and who is giving the advice at what point in their career.
[00:06:31] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like, so example I use all the time is people send me videos of, you know, Jay Cutler on video saying, "Ah, you know, bench press isn't really that useful. You should do this or this or that other exercise." I'm like, okay, that's, you know, coming from him, that's probably good advice. However, they leave out the part of the clip where he literally says right before this, "I didn't really get too much out of bench press anymore 'cause I was already bench pressing 405 by the time I left high school."
[00:06:59] Cliff Wilson: Yeah.
[00:07:00] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And I'm like, that's kind of an important qualifier. Like, if, you know, 95 is, is trying to squash you and 135 is hard, you might be able to get a lot of runway out of the bench press.
[00:07:13] Cliff Wilson: Yes. Y- you know, you bring up an interesting point that I have been really on about, and I've been trying to figure out a way to kind of, um, you know, work it into my own social media, but is like, we exist in a current state of the industry where, um- You know, I, I, like you said, you've worked with, uh, uh, you...
[00:07:34] Cliff Wilson: I know you've worked with a lot of, like, professional sports teams. You are actively in practice. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Definitely. You do, you do the thing. Um, and I, I do the thing in my own sphere, and frequently I will get people they're, they'll quote some social media commentator to me.
[00:07:54] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, commentators
[00:07:54] Cliff Wilson: are good ones. And I'm like, I'm like, "This guy doesn't even do the thing." Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, and I'm like, I- I- I'll, I'll kind of equate it once again to other sports is, like, they don't start talking to LeBron James about what Stephen A. Smith thinks he needs to be doing on the pick and roll.
[00:08:12] Cliff Wilson: Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, like, he- everyone understands he's an entertainer. He's not an educator or, uh, you know, somebody that actually is actively practicing this thing. Do you know what I mean? And so, um, it, it's- I think people have really lost sight of that. And you mentioned Jay Cutler, like, he did the thing, but another thing that's really interesting is I've also kind of, um, you know, there's this, there's a lot of influencers where they do kind of partake in this, you know, fitness space, but there's, they kind of bridge that line between participant and entertainer, you know?
[00:08:43] Cliff Wilson: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:44] Cliff Wilson: And I, I coach a lot of these guys, some, some in the fronts, you know, sometimes they'll include me, and sometimes I just coach them behind the scenes. Um, and sometimes there's a deviation between what they are telling people they are doing and what they are actually doing. Um-
[00:09:00] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Oh,
[00:09:01] Cliff Wilson: for
[00:09:01] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: sure.
[00:09:02] Cliff Wilson: And so that's another hurdle to overcome when trying to talk to the general public at large.
[00:09:08] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. I feel like it's become a- an eyeballs contest, not necessarily providing good content. And on one hand, yeah, I get it. Do I put out social media content? Yes. Do I wanna get more eyeballs on my content? Yes. But at some point, I'm not gonna- sell my soul to, to do it either. You know what I mean? Like, you-
[00:09:29] Cliff Wilson: Yeah
[00:09:30] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: uh, and everyone I think who is doing the craft goes through this of, okay, here's the thing you need to hear that probably won't get a lot of clicks. Here's something else that's maybe a little bit more on the edge that maybe might get more eyeballs. And for me, like, my model is if I can get you onto a newsletter, okay, now I can talk to you in a long form comment for every day for, you know, potentially years on end, right?
[00:09:53] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So that's kinda my, my thing. But, and even friends of mine who are researchers who I love and do really good research, if I hear one more of them tell me to go do Tabatas or the Norwegian four-by-four- ... I'm like, most people can't execute that because they're not at that level. And the fact that you're telling everyone, even, like, potentially untrained people to do it at that exact protocol, you would think people would go, "Oh, well, you clearly haven't trained anyone then."
[00:10:24] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, it doesn't invalidate the research and, and they're not saying that the research is bad. It just, it seems like we're looking to the wrong people to get actual applied advice instead of looking at people who, shocker, make their money getting people results or they wouldn't have a business.
[00:10:41] Cliff Wilson: Yes. Yeah.
[00:10:42] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. And, and you are right. It, it's like sometimes the recommendations are not necessarily wrong, but- Yeah ... they're not for the crowd. Um, one thing that I, I often struggle with too is, um- Y- y- just as an example, for somebody that really wants to improve their physique, if we even take the diet side, there's so much poured into what I would call sidestepping the hard.
[00:11:07] Cliff Wilson: Um- Yeah. ... you know, like, like, oh, we'll follow a keto diet or then it's, you know, carnivore diet or intermittent fasting. Whatever the, you know, whatever the fad is at the time. And for some reason with training, people have this inherent understanding that, um, you can't necessarily sidestep the hard.
[00:11:26] Cliff Wilson: Although I feel like that's become a thing a little bit as well. But like, they understand if you squat 185 pounds this week, the goal is to squat 190 pounds next week. Like, it's going to get harder. You're not asking for it to get easier, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. You just wanna be capable. And for some reason when it comes to fat loss, the leaner you get, I mean, the leaner you get, the hungrier you get, almost regardless of the caloric intake.
[00:11:54] Cliff Wilson: 'Cause, you know, y- if you have somebody that's like down to 5% body fat at show level, you can give them 4,000 calories in that day and they're still gonna feel hungry. Um-
[00:12:02] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, their body says, "Bro, I'm almost dead."
[00:12:05] Cliff Wilson: Yes. Yeah. And so they... There seems to be this inherent understanding that the more advanced you get, it does not get harder, you just get stronger.
[00:12:14] Cliff Wilson: But with fat loss, the leaner you get, it's, it, it, you're not going to be able to avoid that hunger. It's so- Yeah ... body fat dependent, and it's like you need to develop the tools inside your head to, um, withstand that. It's, you know, y- you're not asking for it to get easier. Don't try to make it easier. It's just gonna get harder.
[00:12:35] Cliff Wilson: You need to get stronger. Um, and people don't, people don't wanna hear that.
[00:12:41] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. It's like when I have people do a, a max, a VO2 test, even online, we'll put them on the rower and have them do a, a 2K all out, so 2,000 meters. And several clients now have gotten significantly better. Uh, uh, one girl, she, she got, I think she improved her time by like 20 seconds over like 6 months, and she just did three max tests during that time, and on her third test she's like- But this just feels just as horrible as the first one.
[00:13:09] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And I'm like, "Yeah." You did more. She's like, "But I thought it would be better." I'm like, "But you improved your time by a massive amount." But I'm like, it's never a true all out max test is never gonna feel better. Yeah. It's just not.
[00:13:24] Cliff Wilson: You, you do better, it doesn't feel better.
[00:13:25] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Right, right. She's like, "Oh." She's so disappointed.
[00:13:31] Cliff Wilson: Yeah, yeah. And, and, and I think the other thing that I wish people would really understand is how important context is-
[00:13:40] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yes ...
[00:13:40] Cliff Wilson: with, with that because, like, there is a significant variability from person to person. Um, and, and you know, actually a fantastic example. This is just one example, but, um... So I mentioned that I coached last year's world champion.
[00:14:00] Cliff Wilson: Um, I also coached the third place at the world championships. Oh, cool. So first and third. So they were very close, right? The day before the show, um, to produce their best looks, the, the guy that won the world championship consumed 700 grams of carbohydrates.
[00:14:21] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Damn.
[00:14:22] Cliff Wilson: The day before the show, the guy that took third consumed 50 grams of carbohydrates.
[00:14:27] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Ah.
[00:14:28] Cliff Wilson: And drastically- Bro, you didn't carb
[00:14:30] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: load them? What are you doing, you idiot?
[00:14:32] Cliff Wilson: I know. I know. Um, and I don't think people realize... And, and as different, that's just like a micro, you know, a microcosm of their entire prep to be honest with you. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Like, they could not have taken more different paths to get to...
[00:14:48] Cliff Wilson: You know, they're standing on the- They're all three standing on the podium, and their paths to get there could not have been more different in terms of training and diet. And, um, and so what... I- I- you know, it's interesting you say, you mentioned, like, uh, same thing, I have to create my own social media content.
[00:15:04] Cliff Wilson: And I find that the more I actually understand, which, you know, I've been doing this 16 years and I feel like every few years I, I'm... There's something that, you know, you learn or you put in perspective- Mm-hmm, sure ... or whatever. The more advanced I get, the harder it is to make social media content because I'm like, I can't say anything worth saying in this little window.
[00:15:26] Cliff Wilson: You know what I mean?
[00:15:26] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Well, now you got, like, 10 seconds, bro. Like, you gotta get... If I get one more DM from someone who's like, "Oh, three minutes is too long. Two minutes." Like, you gotta be under, like, 20 seconds now. Like 20 seconds? What, what, what do you even say in 20? Protein good. See ya. You know, I mean, like, come on.
[00:15:45] Cliff Wilson: Uh, yeah. It, it's, it is interesting and frustrating, but I think the thing is, like- I, I guess I've really tried to boil down to I'm going to... You know, even like I mentioned, like I have my own training app now, and, uh, the thing that I'm trying to put together is how do I show people what is actually valuable?
[00:16:09] Cliff Wilson: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:10] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah.
[00:16:11] Cliff Wilson: Um, but the problem right now is everyone seems to be in a gear of what is simple. And so the, the, the, the spot that I get into is, um, you know, I, I'm fortunate because my clients, my clients, um, usually by the time they reach me they have an understanding of my track record, so they're like, they have a buy-in, if that makes sense.
[00:16:31] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. They're all like- Totally ... they're like, yeah, they're like, you know, "I, I trust that what you're saying is valuable or what you're prescribing." Um, but I think the problem is trying to disassociate the average person from, um, eh, the more famous the person, the more valuable the information, if that makes sense.
[00:16:52] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:53] Cliff Wilson: Um, but no, it, it, it is a challenge, but the thing that I like about this process with coaching bodybuilders is that I enjoy that, um, variability, and I enjoy that there is so much, uh, gray area, um, depending on the context. Um, eh, because it is always like this continual puzzle that you need to figure out for this person, um, which frustrates the average person but really excites me.
[00:17:20] Cliff Wilson: Yeah.
[00:17:21] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: But, but I'm sure you'd agree, that's how you learn. Like, I mean, you know, one of the only reasons I still work with clients is because I like it, and- The amount of questions and problems I have to solve is never-ending, you know? Like, it- and that on one hand can be incredibly frustrating, but on the other hand, it's like, oh, wow, I have to...
[00:17:45] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: It's like forced learning, right? So like, oh my God, this person's paid me a lot of money. Like, it's definitely in my wheelhouse of what I can do, but then something will come up and they're like, "Oh, well now I have this or I have that," or, you know, whatever. And I think just over time, being able to expand the variability you can handle I think also makes you more valuable.
[00:18:05] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I mean, I've worked with, uh, everything from post-cancer patients to competitive athletes to some physique stuff, you know, everything in between. But all of them kind of have something that's just not right that they can't quite figure out, right? No one just is like, "Hey, here's your program." And they're like, "Oh, great."
[00:18:22] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And 16 weeks later, they're amazing. It just, nothing's ever that simple.
[00:18:27] Cliff Wilson: You know, oh, you know, you, you, you are right. You do learn, and you are right. Like w- also, when you open up the scope of like the demographic you're working with, usually there's something you can carry back into these other demographics as well.
[00:18:42] Cliff Wilson: And you know, something, sometimes it's very hard for me to explain this, 'cause I, I run like a mentorship program, and sometimes it gets very difficult for me to understand. They probably think, "Oh gosh, he's going off on something, like, I just wanted to learn." Um, but I get very, uh, I get influences... You know, sometimes, um, I think right now our current culture, because it's just, you know, fast, fast, fast, and I think even the more scientifically inclined individuals in the industry, they get on this, um, in this mode where it becomes consumption of data and scientific research, but it's almost just for the purpose of regurgitation, you know?
[00:19:23] Cliff Wilson: Mm-hmm. Right? I'm just gonna read the results and I'm gonna regurgitate it. W- I want, I would rather sometimes have people read a study in full And ponder it before they read another one. Do you know what I mean? Oh,
[00:19:37] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: yeah.
[00:19:37] Cliff Wilson: Like, um, and what are the... What, what is said, but what is implied? What is potentially...
[00:19:44] Cliff Wilson: What are the downstream effects of this? Um, and sometimes even reading things that are not, you know, physique related and thinking about... You know, i- if I can give a total sidebar, but like- Definitely ... I, I, I try to... You know, what was a, a significant improvement for myself in my coaching, remember I said 40% of my clients were doing great and 60% were struggling.
[00:20:07] Cliff Wilson: You know what a, a significant, a thing that significantly improved this, was that when I first started, I think anybody that inherently likes to coach, when you start off, you wanna control every variable. Um, you wanna control... And especially in bodybuilding, you're like, "I'm gonna control the time they eat."
[00:20:23] Cliff Wilson: Oh, yeah. "I'm gonna control the time they eat, and what they eat- Yep ... and how they train." Um-
[00:20:26] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Weigh
[00:20:26] Cliff Wilson: the
[00:20:26] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: broccoli. I, I,
[00:20:28] Cliff Wilson: I have a lot of interests outside of bodybuilding. And you know, I was just reading, I was reading some various, uh, articles on just different economic systems.
[00:20:41] Cliff Wilson: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:42] Cliff Wilson: And the article presented some interesting data that basically freer market- e- you know, economies tended to thrive.
[00:20:53] Cliff Wilson: The more restrictions put on it, there inevitably was some problems. The idea being that some outside entity that doesn't have a full understanding of the market they are regulating sometimes didn't understand the challenges within the market, 'cause they're on the outside. Yeah. And I kind of was like, "I'm on the outside of these people's lives, and I'm trying to- Mm-hmm
[00:21:14] Cliff Wilson: regulate their lives." You know what I mean? Like, I can say, you know, I can say, um... You still there?
[00:21:21] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yep.
[00:21:22] Cliff Wilson: Sorry. Sorry there. Okay. I can say, um-
[00:21:24] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Nope, you're screen. There we go. We're good.
[00:21:25] Cliff Wilson: Oh, there we go. I can say, uh, "Let's eat, you know, three hours before the gym," and I can say, "Eat this food," but I don't know what their work schedule's like.
[00:21:37] Cliff Wilson: I don't know what their, what time their babysitter's available. I don't know a lot about their lives, you know what I mean? I can ask, but I mean, honestly, if I'm gonna delve into all that, I would need to charge each client, like, a couple thousand per, you know, per- Yeah ... month. And
[00:21:53] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: it's
[00:21:54] Cliff Wilson: like- And it's gonna change
[00:21:54] Cliff Wilson: it's gonna change. And, um, I was like, "I need to instead give them some autonomy in this process." And- Mm-hmm ... and I kind of started going with approach of, um, they should get the most autonomy they are capable of handling. So I almost went the opposite route. I completely revamped things, and the success rate of my clients drastically improved.
[00:22:21] Cliff Wilson: I am trying not to interrupt their lives as much as possible, only as much as I have to.
[00:22:27] Cliff Wilson: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:27] Cliff Wilson: And I did not read that from a fitness, a, you know, a, a diet or training study. I was just poking around some economics articles, and I kinda had this, you know, carried it over, and it was a drastic overhaul of my coaching, and it worked wonders.
[00:22:42] Cliff Wilson: I'm trying not to interrupt their lives. Their lives should be as unimpeded as possible. Um, and I think it's just, once again, just sit, sometimes sitting and pondering on things. And I've even said this, I said this to you before, but it's like you said a few things to me 10 years ago that were probably just a couple of one-off lines you were saying, and I, I sat on those for a couple of years.
[00:23:03] Cliff Wilson: And they- ... kind of, it kind of permeated a lot of what I did from this bit of information, and I, it wasn't something that I was just like... I didn't just hear it and be like, just go spouting it off everywhere. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. I really wanted to take it to heart and think of all the downstream repercussions of that.
[00:23:25] Cliff Wilson: And, um, I don't know. I just think that there's less pondering going on than there should be.
[00:23:29] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. No, I love that, and that's, you know, kudos to you for doing that because I feel like everything is so, like you said, rapid fire, not necessarily for deep learning, but to, oh, what's the next Instagram thing I can put out on this, right?
[00:23:44] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: It, it, it, it, there's a- Yeah, it's sort of a weird disconnect. Like, I, I realized this years ago that I... So when I design stuff, I separate intake from output. I don't know if you ever get this way, but when I'm doing a lot of output, I'm doing a lot of writing, I'm, you know, designing courses and working with clients, I- after a while, I can only do that so long without having any input.
[00:24:07] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like, I have to read more studies, talk to other people, go to conferences, et cetera. But there's this input kind of output balance, and I feel like if I get too skewed one direction or the other, I just feel kind of off. And then if I'm designing something, I'll take as much input as I can. And then at some point, I'll actually stop all the input, and then give myself ideally four, six weeks or whatever, just to think about it in the background.
[00:24:34] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I'll just write notes. I'll, you know, I used to do stuff like I'd lock myself in a freaking 90-minute float tank, and I have a shift wave chair I'm playing around with now for stuff like that, or just simple meditation. You know, ideally I'd do this before I go on a kiteboard trip. If I go kiteboard, I do something physical, something that's completely different.
[00:24:51] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Not even necessarily thinking about those things, but the amount of ideas, like subconsciously and other you'll think about and have pop up is kind of crazy. And I feel like a lot of everything now is so, I just need to learn this to learn the thing. But you don't know what the thing really is, and sometimes, like you said, you don't really necessarily know what you need to learn either.
[00:25:15] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So having part of that 10%, 20% being outside of your, you know, like, um, domain discipline type thing, which one of my favorite books is Range, right? So to David Epstein of can you be really good at these two skill sets and find like an overlap with them? And I feel like everybody is still trying to go one direction.
[00:25:35] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: But you can be 90% and 90% in two different things, in the overlap you can be world-class in. But trying to be like, you know, LeBron James in the NBA, like, good luck. Like, there are people who do that, but it's a much, much smaller percentage and minority for sure.
[00:25:52] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. You know, it's interesting, um, when you said the input and the output and the, uh...
[00:25:57] Cliff Wilson: Um, I, I can tell even by the way that you speak is that you do a lot of, um, orienting of information- Yeah ... which I don't think a lot of people do well. So once again, I don't have my degree in this. I'm entirely self-educated. But, um, my dad's a PhD in plant pathology, so it's like I'm just kind of- Oh, interesting.
[00:26:18] Cliff Wilson: Huh. Yeah. So I'm very, uh, familiar with scientific processes, so to speak. Yeah. Um, and, um, and so I guess the thing that I always try to ask myself when I'm working with a client, but also fitness information at large, I kind of always ask myself, what do I know? What do I think, and what am I sure I do not know?
[00:26:41] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:41] Cliff Wilson: And I, I kind of ask myself those questions because honestly, asking yourself those questions and, or at least trying to categorize those things, um, it always leads you somewhere. And, and you mentioned like that, and I think the orienting of information. A lot of people... Another thing outside of fitness that I often use, like you said input and output.
[00:27:00] Cliff Wilson: Um, uh, in the military they use something called OODA loops. Um, uh, you know, and I always kind of think of that even in my coaching space is, you know, observe, orient, decide, and act. And it's like I do a lot of observing of course, but like that, that, uh, they... In OODA loops in the military, the orient. How do you orient the information that you've taken in?
[00:27:26] Cliff Wilson: And it's like I always try to give my way, myself different ways of thinking about things, you know. How can I reorder the same information to make it make sense or whatever it, it may be. And then it kind of gives me, um, good perspective on then how I, how I proceed to act. Um, and you know, even just as a, a, a typical example.
[00:27:49] Cliff Wilson: For the longest time, um, I, you know... When you s- when you become familiar with like time courses of training, for example. Like I train a muscle, it may grow for 24 to 48 hours, or at least see that uptick in, you know, protein synthesis. And it's like, okay, it usually leads you to train a muscle group two to three days per week, you know, at some point in your career.
[00:28:13] Cliff Wilson: But it seemed to me like almost every advanced bodybuilder ends up in a bro sp- split at the end of their career.
[00:28:21] Cliff Wilson: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:21] Cliff Wilson: Um, and I also kind of take the approach of like, I mean, when I say every advanced bodybuilder, I mean, we're probably looking at something like 90% of the bodybuilders end up in some version of some kind of bro split at the end of their career.
[00:28:34] Cliff Wilson: And I kind of take the approach, if something almost always is and has been, maybe it's serving a purpose that I have not identified yet. And so, you know, I, I kind of was just like- There might be some value to this, and it's like I s- spend a lot of time thinking about what that value might be. And so honestly, I kind of just landed on...
[00:28:56] Cliff Wilson: And I even just ended up trying it with some more advanced bodybuilders. And I'll be honest, my bodybuilders that have been training 15 to 20 years, they did thrive more on maybe not a full bro split, but maybe five days between each muscle group being trained. Hmm. Or like, or like a main day, and then kind of a carrier day.
[00:29:15] Cliff Wilson: I, I don't know the exact reason, but I would, I would venture to say something like, um, I would venture it's probably because once you reach such an advanced stage, it takes a real ballist stimulus you know what I mean? Like- Oh, yeah ... to, to produce growth, where it almost demands five days of recovery just to produce a stimulus that's worth a damn to someone so advanced.
[00:29:41] Cliff Wilson: Um, but it's like, uh, you know, once again, that, that process of Th- when I, I remember when thinking, okay, why does every bodybuilder land on this eventually? And I think that just goes into the category of there's something I think that's conflicting with something that I don't know. And, and so I gotta get to the bottom of this.
[00:30:03] Cliff Wilson: So those types of things, I think they lead you on a real journey in your head, if that makes sense, to where, where you can go. And I think if I spend a long time just being like, "I gotta get to social media. I know the time course of muscle protein synthesis uptick after I train it. I gotta tell people they need to train each muscle group two to three days per week," I'd really miss out on all the potential, if that makes sense.
[00:30:28] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And I mean, I've, I've probably put out stuff saying that before too, and but we also forget that bodybuilding especially is so hyper muscle specific.
[00:30:40] Cliff Wilson: Yeah.
[00:30:41] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. It's like what about, like, the whole nervous system? What about the immune system? What about all these other systems? And again, is that I have tons of buddies who do, you know, that kind of research.
[00:30:49] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Is it super interesting? Yeah, I, I find it absolutely fascinating because it's giving us pretty good data on one aspect of it, but again, all of that data, I don't know of an N of one that's even done from an advanced bodybuilder. Right?
[00:31:04] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Well,
[00:31:05] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I would- So I would love to get, like, an stable isotope infusion in advanced person who just goes and obliterates themselves-
[00:31:13] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: and then see, 'cause it- the, the data right now would say it might be as short as 24 hours, right? 'Cause the more trained you are, it tends to get shorter, but again, that's not, like, high-level professional bodybuilder trained. That's- A- ... more trained than recreationally trained people.
[00:31:31] Cliff Wilson: Yeah.
[00:31:31] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And,
[00:31:32] Cliff Wilson: and it's also, like, honestly, I don't even start implementing that until someone's been training hard for, like, 15 to 20 years.
[00:31:38] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, you're measuring
[00:31:39] Cliff Wilson: decades. It's... I know. It's, like, the most specific group. And even, like, I, I try to just, once again, take in... I try to always reconcile what I'm seeing in the research with what I'm seeing in person. Yeah. Like, even if... Another example, while there's such a big, right now, low volume in the s- fitness sphere.
[00:31:58] Cliff Wilson: Like, we talk about the low volume and, like, heavy focus on the four to eight rep range and then mechanical tension is all that matters is, like, very popular. Mm-hmm. And the thing that always makes me laugh though is, like, you know, bodybuilding is like any other sport. Genetics matter so much.
[00:32:13] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Oh,
[00:32:13] Cliff Wilson: for sure.
[00:32:13] Cliff Wilson: And so it's like, it's like, you know, even if I draw this thing here, but it's like every, um, every group, every person is competing within their own genetic grouping. So, like, even as I draw this right here, right? This top group is just competing within their own genetic group. You know, there's some overlap with the middle group here, and then there's, you know, the bottom group that's competing- Yeah
[00:32:34] Cliff Wilson: against each other. Um, the poor, the poor guys down here. But it's like, um- You know, people will be like, "Oh, Mike Mentzer, uh, got to be a great bodybuilder on low volume, so it's possible. And Dorian Yates, you know, was a low volume, you know, user, and he got towards the, he got to the top." And I'm like, okay, but here's the thing is, um, these guys are such outliers in the low volume group in bodybuilding- Yeah
[00:33:03] Cliff Wilson: you are l- you are literally naming them by name.
[00:33:06] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:07] Cliff Wilson: Like, like-
[00:33:07] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And you got two.
[00:33:09] Cliff Wilson: Yes, I know. And so I'm
[00:33:10] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: like- And Casey Viator. Like, you got three now, okay.
[00:33:13] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. So I'm like, you, you are looking at everybody at the top end of the top end And you're, you- so when you say low volume works, you can't compare these guys in the top, you know, of this little Venn diagram here at the top.
[00:33:31] Cliff Wilson: You can't do that and compare them to the lower group- Yeah ... because they're gonna surpass that lower group and the middle group no matter what. Um, they're the, they are the outliers. If we were gonna plot this on a data chart with, you know what I mean? Like, they'd be the guys just completely outlier from the, from the pack.
[00:33:48] Cliff Wilson: So, um, something tells me they were probably gonna get to the top no matter what, or maybe they had some special needs that, you know, special recovery needs we weren't aware of. Um, but i- it's, it gets difficult sometimes to explain that to people where, like you said, this is such a specific endeavor with very specific results we are after.
[00:34:07] Cliff Wilson: Um, and it gets very difficult to put everything in context within a, a decent time course, that's for sure.
[00:34:14] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. The examples I think of is, uh, a buddy of mine that trained at the gym in Canada with, uh, Paul Dillett, a famous- ... pro bodybuilder back in the day. Yeah. If people are familiar with him. Just freaky physique.
[00:34:26] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And I was asking him, I was like, "Oh, does he... D- you know, he must train pretty hard." He's like, "Oh, fuck no." Like, the guy would come in and do press downs with, like, 60 pounds and have these monster tri... He's like, he's like, the guy, he trained, yeah, but he's like half rep, partial rep. Like, he didn't do anything he thought was very impressive, you know, in terms of load or anything else.
[00:34:49] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And again, this was, you know, later in his career, so it could have been injuries, could have been a bunch of stuff. Maybe he's just maintaining or, or whatever. Um, which is hilarious to think that there are some people who enough drugs and a little bit of stimulus are just gonna be freaks no matter what.
[00:35:06] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. You know, you know, um, I think back to the early- Nobody wants to hear
[00:35:09] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: that, but
[00:35:10] Cliff Wilson: I know. You know, I, I've had... You know, luckily, of all the world champions I've worked with, they've been incredibly hard workers. But I, I think back to the first few years of my career, I had a guy who turned pro, won multiple pro shows, and even took as high as, um...
[00:35:30] Cliff Wilson: He was natural, and took as high as fifth place at the Natural World Championships. And I remember he, I would get together and train with him occasionally in person. He was l- he was close enough to me that I could do it. And- I never saw him take a set to failure, never once. Hmm. And I would try to push him to do it, and he would terminate the set every time.
[00:35:53] Cliff Wilson: He would say things to me like... I mean, his entire training approach, regardless of what I put on the paper, was... I would categorize as, ca- categorize it as vibes. It was just- You know? It was just like, he's like, "I like to come in, get a good feel, you know, get a good pump." He's like, "I think it's just important to get the blood flowing," you know?
[00:36:16] Cliff Wilson: Um, and he would say stuff like that, and he would just, like... A- he, his working sets looked like mine and everybody else's warmups. And he would just... I never saw him squat over 315, despite massive legs.
[00:36:29] Cliff Wilson: Hmm.
[00:36:29] Cliff Wilson: And I mean, someone his size you'd think would be doing well over 405, you know?
[00:36:33] Cliff Wilson: Yeah.
[00:36:33] Cliff Wilson: And it was just, you know, he's like, "I just like to come in," and he's like, he goes, "I think it's just really important to keep things positive and, you know, enjoy the journey."
[00:36:41] Cliff Wilson: And it was just, it was just like he's just feeling good in the gym, you know? There was no... You know, you think of, like, Dorian Yates', uh, what was his documentary called? I know. Blood and Guts. Blood and Guts. Yeah, yeah. It was... This was, uh- ... Unicorns and Rainbows. This was like this was... It was just, "I, I just like to get a good feel coming into the gym."
[00:36:58] Cliff Wilson: And he just... He would go on stage and destroy everybody. And I remember sometimes he'd get these wins, and I'd think to myself, "I have so little to do with this." Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, this was, this was meant to be. He was gonna do this no matter what. Um, but yeah, I think some people are just built to, you know...
[00:37:15] Cliff Wilson: And, and people don't like hearing that. You know, they don't- No. And, and, you know, you... And then some people would see him training, and they would be like, "Oh, well he's definitely on PEDs." And I'm like, no. I mean, this guy, this guy didn't even like to take Tylenol, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, he was like, he...
[00:37:29] Cliff Wilson: The idea that he would put a needle in himself was, like, beyond, so far off of, you know what I mean- Yeah ... what he would be capable of. So it's like, um, yeah, people don't wanna admit that genetics matter, and I, I always just think in my job I'm trying to get people to the top of their own genetic subgroup.
[00:37:45] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. That's my main, um, that's my main goal, you know? There, there are some people where it's like, yeah, they're never gonna be... I mean, even with myself, I'm a, I'm a professional natural bodybuilder, uh- I, I won my pro card at a very big show, and I took second in my pro debut. And for someone with my own genetics, that's like a, a big deal.
[00:38:08] Cliff Wilson: Do you know what I mean? It's like- No, that's amazing. That's great ... I'm, I'm probably not, I'm probably never gonna go, you know, I'm never g- I'm never gonna place top five at the world championships or anything like that. But it's like, you know, what can you do with the tools that someone has? And it's like, it's, it's, uh
[00:38:24] Cliff Wilson: I don't know. I, I, I think it's where one ti- again, it's hard to get people to realize that sometimes the people that look the best, the best, did not get that from what they're actually doing. It's just what their parents gave them.
[00:38:36] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. It's like I, I talked to buddies about this too. The longer we've been doing stuff, the more I think you have an appreciation for how freaky the true freaks actually are.
[00:38:47] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like, it, it, it's just, you know, I made this analogy before, like- Seeing an NFL human who weighs 280, you look at him and go, "Yeah, definitely looks like an athlete. Definitely got a lot of muscle mass," and then you see them move, you're like, "What the fuck was that?" There's no way. Like, you watch that person standing there, it's like there's no way that guy's gonna move like that, and you j- you're like, "Well, what?
[00:39:14] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: That's possible?"
[00:39:17] Cliff Wilson: It is. It's interesting. Um, so, well, a- and it, it is true, so, like, uh, I played basketball in high school and a little bit in college, and, um, I was a, like, compared to the average person, a good basketball player. I'm much more suited for basketball than I am, like, bodybuilding in some regards.
[00:39:34] Cliff Wilson: Um, and so I played, you know, I, I was on Va- I was on Valparaiso's team, uh, so it was, you know, it was Division I and... But I, in high school I had played against guys that did eventually go to the NBA.
[00:39:49] Cliff Wilson: Oh,
[00:39:49] Cliff Wilson: nice. And, um, you know, 'cause I was on, I was on, uh, one of the top 50 AAU teams in the country in high school.
[00:39:55] Cliff Wilson: And, you know, I played against, like, Shannon Brown, who played for the Lakers, and, uh, I, we did play LeBron James' team. I didn't have to guard him. Uh, but, like- ... um, but the, the, but I did have to guard Shannon Brown, and he was still in high school at the time, and I remember the, the variance between us was wild.
[00:40:12] Cliff Wilson: Um- ... like, how fast he moved, you know what I mean? Um, the speed. And then I went to college, and I remember we would, in practice, um... Do you know who Bryce Drew was? No. Uh, so Bryce Drew, he, he played for Valparaiso and he, he played for the Bulls in the NBA. Oh, okay. So, um, he would come in and scrimmage against us 'cause his dad was the coach of, Homer Drew was the coach of the team, and Bryce was playing for the Bulls at the time.
[00:40:41] Cliff Wilson: I think he was just wrapping up his career at the time or whatever. And Bryce was about my height, about 6'2", about my weight, and so I always had to guard him in practice. And once again, if I go to a park anywhere, usually I'm just destroying everybody at the park, right? I can just pick up and destroy most average people, and I, it was completely hopeless trying to guard him.
[00:41:07] Cliff Wilson: I remember I would eventually get to the point where my only hope to stop him was trying to cover his eyes- ... so he couldn't, couldn't see the basket, but it still didn't make a difference. And, um, and I remember thinking to myself, I don't know, you know, a freshman in college, there are still times where you're like, "What if, you know, if I work hard enough, maybe I could get there," you know what I mean?
[00:41:31] Cliff Wilson: Maybe I can develop the skills and get to the NBA. And I remember a couple of times guarding these guys, and I'd think to myself, "They have something I do not have." Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like- Yeah, yeah ... there's, um, I, you know, like, there was a speed factor for sure, but even, like- Reflexes, timing, things like that, and I was just like, "This is next level."
[00:41:54] Cliff Wilson: You know what I mean? But yeah- Yeah ... I, you know, you know it's bad when you're trying to block the eyesight of the guy you're guarding. You're like- ... this is the final sta- this is the final stage of de- desperation.
[00:42:05] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Last bodybuilding show, a buddy of mine here locally, um, competed. Uh, actually had Dorian Yates train him.
[00:42:14] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: You know, he wasn't enhanced, but he very impressive, won Mr. Wisconsin. Uh, and he's, you know, spent a lot of time and effort doing it. Super smart dude, and I think he was competing at a show in Colorado. I don't know if it was a national show or what, and he's like, "I'm going up this long escalator, and I see this massive dude at the top," and I'm going, "Who the hell is that?"
[00:42:38] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And he goes up and talks to him, and he's like, "Hey, you know, how long you been training? Like, what do you do?" And he's like, "Man, you're huge." He's like, um, I think it was Phil Heath when he first just did his Colorado show on, like, 10 weeks of training or something. And he's like- Good God ... "Yeah, I'd just been training for, like, 10 weeks, and my buddies told me I should do this thing."
[00:42:59] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And my buddy's looking at him, and he's like, "I honestly decided at that point I'm retiring." He's like, "I can't..." He's like, "I can't compete against that. I'm..." He's like, "I'm out."
[00:43:13] Cliff Wilson: It, it's... Yeah, some people just have it. You know, it's funny 'cause, like, uh, my, my girlfriend right now, she, when I met her, she did not train, but you can spot the potential of people.
[00:43:25] Cliff Wilson: Do you know what I mean? Oh, for sure, yeah. Like, you can, like, and sometimes it's like seeing a 7' tall person, and they're like, "What's basketball? I don't know." You know what I mean? And, um, and I, I remember when she was like, "Oh, I'm kind of interested in this." I was like, "I think you're gonna build muscle very quickly once you start."
[00:43:41] Cliff Wilson: And she's like, "Really?" I was like, "Yeah, I can just spot the... You know, after all these years, I can spot it." And it's like after six months of training, she, you can see, like, the separation in her quad. And- Oh, wow. And, um, like, yeah, just r- you know, uh, a- and that's from, like, one set of leg extensions a week and, like-
[00:43:58] Cliff Wilson: one set of squats. I'm not even joking. Yeah. Six months of training and one set. 'Cause I even told her, I was like, you know, she didn't know how big she wanted to get in certain regards, and so I was like, "I'd only do one set, though, with your genetics." And she got her, like, uh, you know, her DNA test back, and it, it said, it said in her DNA test, um, uh, you know, genetic composition found often in elite power athletes.
[00:44:23] Cliff Wilson: Oh, wow. And I was like, "Yeah, I figured," 'cause I could tell. And I was like, "Most people don't have a split in their quads after six months of one leg- Yeah ... extension for a week," you know? It's just kind of funny. Yeah.
[00:44:34] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And
[00:44:35] Cliff Wilson: that- But-
[00:44:36] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: But that's what's so hard, too, because, like, everyone is comparing- everything to everyone else, and you can't.
[00:44:44] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Everything is just like a, a snapshot of where they are now, so you don't necessarily see- Mm-hmm ... where they started either. You know what I mean? And so it's like you, we get the, the praise to the genetic freaks who maybe didn't have to work as hard as other people, which is fine. You know, that's just the way life goes.
[00:45:06] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: But then you, you see their training and you're like, "Oh, well I must not have to work that hard because it worked for this person or that person." It's like, but-
[00:45:15] Cliff Wilson: Yeah ...
[00:45:15] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: but you're talking about completely different case studies and circumstances and context- Mm-hmm ... and everything else too.
[00:45:23] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. You know, it's interesting.
[00:45:24] Cliff Wilson: I think about that often because, um, you know, if I even take my own... I, I have poor bodybuilding genetics. Like, my wrists are very thin. Yeah, me too. I have long nails. I don't know about bodybuilding.
[00:45:34] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah.
[00:45:36] Cliff Wilson: You know, but it's interesting because I think it would've been impossible for me to be the coach that I am if everything I did worked.
[00:45:46] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Sure.
[00:45:46] Cliff Wilson: You know what I mean?
[00:45:47] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah,
[00:45:47] Cliff Wilson: yeah. Um, and it's, it's interesting because I was, I was pretty obsessive with documenting. I, I guinea pigged on myself so much. And, um, I, my, my, my ex-wife was actually my assistant and business partner in a lot of things, and we still get along great. And I, I always joke with her because, you know, um, at the beginning of my career, I was so obsessive with documenting what I was trying, what were the results, and I have boxes and boxes of notebooks and notes and all of this written down.
[00:46:22] Cliff Wilson: And I mean, realistically, if I were just progressing and happy with how I was progressing, I never would've done that. But I always- Yeah, yeah ... I, but I always joke with her, I'm like, "Yeah, now as somebody who's, you know, coached hundreds of pros and world champions," I'm l- uh, you know, people are like, "Oh, of, oh, of course..."
[00:46:37] Cliff Wilson: Uh, oh, there seems to be more thing here. There we go. Um, you know, as I have all these notebooks and all these notes and stuff and the boxes of them, as somebody who's coached, you know, in, in hindsight, somebody who's coached all these, you know, winners and had a good career at this, yeah, it makes sense.
[00:46:54] Cliff Wilson: I'm like, you were sitting there watching me, someone who has never competed before, only been training for, like, a year or two, compulsively documenting all of this stuff. I was like, you're probably like, "Oh my God, what kind of psycho did I marry here?" But, um, but once again, I think it's like, in my experience, some of the people that I...
[00:47:15] Cliff Wilson: A lot, a significant portion of the people that I've coached that have become world champions, they have somehow combined this elite genetic ability with- They've almost convinced themselves that they don't have good genetics
[00:47:30] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah ...
[00:47:31] Cliff Wilson: that, that's usually the case
[00:47:32] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Especially when you're talking about the elite of the elite
[00:47:35] Cliff Wilson: Yes.
[00:47:35] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Yeah I, I, I really find that the people that I've coached that, that become either a world champion or, like, top three in the world, they, they have these elite genetics, but they always talk about... They're like, "Well, due to my disadvantages." Like- Yeah ... they think they, they... I don't know if it's a tactic.
[00:47:56] Cliff Wilson: I often don't think it is, but they've convinced themselves they don't have the advantages of these other elite guys, so they've gotta outwork them, and then, like, that's when you're really dealing with somebody who's, like, you know, they're ready to go to that next level. Um, and then after they get their first win, they kinda are like, they have the attitude of, "I can win," but it's more along the lines of, "I can't give them an inch."
[00:48:18] Cliff Wilson: You know what I mean? Because once again, they have these advantages that I don't. So it's interesting combination of the physical and the mental that leads to somebody being so great.
[00:48:28] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, and I think even just how- How they talk about it and how they set everything up. Like, some examples I think of are, you know, like Michael Phelps is very well documented to have exactly the same ritual.
[00:48:44] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: We can argue if that's good or bad, for how many years in a row, like unbroken, like just... Like one of his coaches said- Mm-hmm ... like he would even come in, like his towel placement on the bench would be the same, right? Just everything was the same. And again, there's gonna be a cost to, to that. Um, but you look at him and you go, "Yeah, that guy looks like he could be a pretty high level swimmer."
[00:49:03] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like he has, you know, there's been certain arguments about, you know, size of the feet and, you know, all this other kind of stuff too. But he put in all the time and effort to do all of the training on, on top of everything too. Um, so like the NFL, I think of like Justin Jefferson, who very talented, but his idea of s- status is to do whatever it is to have the team to, to win.
[00:49:29] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: It's never, "Ah, you know, I'm just gonna hang around and not do much for the next four months." It's always like, "What is the next thing I can do? How can I be a little bit better? What is the..." You know, even already being at the elite of the elite, those people tend to be either I need to work harder or it's always the next thing.
[00:49:46] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: It's never, "Oh, you know, I'm just gonna take 12 months off. Yeah, whatever, they're already paying me money. I'm, I'm good." You know- Yes ... which I always find it's, it's just even what they say and just the mindset is super fascinating.
[00:49:58] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. It's, uh, you know, i- it's interesting because I also see that in, um, coaching, you know?
[00:50:06] Cliff Wilson: Like-
[00:50:07] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Sure ...
[00:50:07] Cliff Wilson: I think there's a difference between the people that just wanna continually get better over and over and over again. Um, and you know, it's, it, it is interesting too with, with coaching, uh, at least in the bodybuilding industry, um, I feel like when access to information became more readily available, for the first five, six, seven years I thought things, um...
[00:50:36] Cliff Wilson: Competition in the coaching sphere in bodybuilding, I can only speak to bodybuilding-
[00:50:39] Cliff Wilson: Sure ...
[00:50:40] Cliff Wilson: um, but it got tougher. Um, I felt like my skill was raising, but at the same time the industry skill was raising and so it was like this, you know, I, I, it was an arms race so to speak. But for some reason, I wanna say seven years ago, I felt like the skill level of, of bodybuilding coaching started to decline.
[00:51:03] Cliff Wilson: Um- And I can't really figure out why that is. I don't know if it's... I don't know. Um, and it's interesting because, you know, I think that kind of like with training when it comes to, like, understanding of this whole process, I think the longer you do it, you can still keep improving, but the rate of improvement slows as you've learned-
[00:51:25] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: For sure
[00:51:25] Cliff Wilson: you know, more. And so my rate of improvement has slowed, but, like, just as an example, you know, um, wins have increased, and I don't think that's me. Um, I think that, you know, I'm doing what I've largely always done, but I think the field has diminished a bit. And, um, I think it's because... I don't know. I, I, I think it's once, once again because I think that, uh, sometimes people will mistake views.
[00:51:56] Cliff Wilson: You know, oh, people said that I like... Pe- you know, people will be like, oh, you know, I recommended four to eight reps and nothing else, and people like it. So then- ... kind of like you're kind of pigeonholed into only prescribing four to eight reps, and then other people go and prescribe only four to eight reps.
[00:52:11] Cliff Wilson: And then it's like, um... So i- it's very interesting to me. I'm kind of... You know, I've been in this industry long enough, and you've been in even longer than me. I'm kind of curious to see if things will come back around towards, um, you know, just searching for truly more effective practice or if it'll kind of stay in this spot for a while.
[00:52:31] Cliff Wilson: But, um, but I, I think it applies to coaching where it's like I think some coaches, 'cause there are some very good ones out there. That's not to say that there are no good ones. Yeah, yeah. There's some very good... There's a few coaches out there when I know they have a client in a show that I have a client, I'm like, "We gotta bring it."
[00:52:45] Cliff Wilson: Right? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And, um, I think that, um, those coaches I know, they are always- The, even if they're near the top of the industry, they are always acting like it could be pulled out from them at any given moment. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, you know, they have this drive where it's like they're obsessive about it, and, uh, it is, it is funny.
[00:53:08] Cliff Wilson: You, you also mentioned the autistic people. Um, I'm not sure, do you know who Austin Stout is?
[00:53:13] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I was just thinking of him. I love Austin. Yeah. He's
[00:53:15] Cliff Wilson: great. And, um, yeah, and it's like he and I were joking one time, 'cause, you know, I've, I, I helped, uh, I've helped Austin come into his last few shows, 'cause like you said- Oh, cool
[00:53:25] Cliff Wilson: no- nobody's objective, nobody's objective in the final few weeks, and I become his objective eye basically.
[00:53:31] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah.
[00:53:32] Cliff Wilson: And, um- Which
[00:53:32] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: is why I literally send photos out to other people. I've sent some to you in the past, I've sent some to other people, 'cause I'm like, "I know how much effort you put into this, and I can't...
[00:53:41] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I am not objective. I am just not objective."
[00:53:43] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. A- and Austin and I were joking where it's almost like every great coach, 'cause I consider Austin a great coach, and like every great coach that I've known, there's always, when you sit down and really get to talk to them, you, you know, particularly like when the camera's off-
[00:54:00] Cliff Wilson: Mm-hmm
[00:54:00] Cliff Wilson: there's always something, you're like, they're not a totally normal person. No. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, they're, it, everybody's d- like the thing that's abnormal about every great coach, and I, I'll fall into this category too, is like there, it's all different kinds of not normal. You know what I mean?
[00:54:16] Cliff Wilson: Yep. But I'm like, they're, I don't know if a normal person could do this job at the highest level either.
[00:54:22] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: No, I don't think so.
[00:54:24] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. It's interesting, though.
[00:54:26] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Also, I've often joked, like, and I've, I'll get some hate mail for this, like, they'll, then, then like my buddy Cal Dietz, I'm like, "Oh, he's a crazy man."
[00:54:36] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: People are like, "Oh, you, you're pissed off at Cal?" I'm like, "No, I mean that in like the literal sense." Like, he's borderline crazy, but he has like some of the, the best training stuff, and he's done things that people have, you know, never done before in the industry. So it's kind of like a weird compliment, because I think, like you said, at the highest level, like none, none of the ones I know are, are normal.
[00:54:57] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Right. And that's like a compliment. Like, if you called someone like, "Uh, that's pretty normal," they'd take it as like an insult.
[00:55:03] Cliff Wilson: Yeah, I know. I know. It, it, and it is so funny, because even like sometimes when I run my mentorship courses, um, every once in a while I'll get somebody in the course where even if their education level is currently very low, right, they're just like totally at the beginning, but sometimes they'll say something that strikes me as odd, and I'm like- This, this, they might have what it takes.
[00:55:28] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm like, they might have what it takes. It's just, um... I don't know. It, it's funny observing after having been in a long time where it's like, yeah, you gotta spot something a little bit off about the person to know that they could go far in this, in this industry.
[00:55:42] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And I think you, you kinda have to do that because there's so many different areas you can go to.
[00:55:49] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Even with bodybuilding stuff, you could go into more of the psychology. You can look at, you know, like Austin's doing a lot of the functional stuff with blood work. You can look at the training, you can look at the research, you can look at obviously nutrition, supplementation, rest, uh, uh, sleep, research with HRV.
[00:56:04] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: How do you manage, you know, fatigue? Uh, there's tons of stuff you can go into that are actually to some degree needed, I think, to be at the highest level. And so it, it's just the, to me, it's just this never ending thing of these little areas you can go into and... 'Cause at the end of the day, you...
[00:56:26] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Bodybuilding's a weird thing, and I stole this from Austin Stout. It's his quote of, he's like, "We're, we're trying to make, like, the best race car we can, and then we're gonna crash it, and we're gonna try to make sure that it doesn't get as much damage, but we're definitely gonna crash it."
[00:56:41] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Y- you know, I guess maybe, maybe the, one of the ways I could bring it, uh, together is, like, every year in my coaching process, and I, I, I guess I, I would like it if more people did this in the fitness spot, but, like, I kind of...
[00:57:00] Cliff Wilson: I, I audit myself.
[00:57:01] Cliff Wilson: Mm.
[00:57:02] Cliff Wilson: Um, I, I r- at the end of every contest season, I run through an audit and I, I ask myself, "What did I do this year that really worked?" Um, like, "What did I do well? Um, what needs improvement? What did I do differently that I'd like to keep, and what did I do differently that I, I think I need to get rid of?"
[00:57:21] Cliff Wilson: And, um, I'll also look back at my... There's a few clients. I- sometimes they're not even the clients that win. They're the clients that I felt like they were as good as they could possibly be. Um, and I look back at my email exchanges with them. Did I say certain things? Did I not say certain things? How was my pacing?
[00:57:40] Cliff Wilson: What were the changes like? What kind of training did I have them on? And I kind of- ponder that. Um, you know, like, what did I do well there? And then I also look at the ones where I felt like I maybe left a little bit on the table. Do you know what I mean? Like, they could've been a little bit better. What did I do wrong with pacing?
[00:57:56] Cliff Wilson: Uh, you know, what could I have done better? Sometimes it's harder to look at, it's hard to look at the ones you felt like you missed an opportunity with- Yeah ... but, but you've gotta, you gotta do that stuff. And I, and then, then I go back to what I said I, I, what, what do I know? What do I think? And what am I sure that I don't know?
[00:58:13] Cliff Wilson: Um, and it's like, I find that that kind of keeps me improving every year, and keeps my knowledge base and skillsets improving. And I think that, you know, even if you're not coaching, even if you're just doing this for yourself, it's a worthy endeavor to kinda look back in your more recent memory and kind of run through that audit process.
[00:58:31] Cliff Wilson: 'Cause it, it does force you to be better.
[00:58:34] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And also just- You kinda like the after action report, like, okay, how did things go? What were some things we did well? What, what were things that we could, you know, do different? I think that's a, as much as everybody wants to have all the wins and everything else, like the times I've learned the most from were absolute trash bin catastrophes.
[00:58:59] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And at the time, just horrible. Like it just... And then, you know, and a lot of times it wasn't necessarily for any one particular thing, circumstances, whatever, it's a combination of things. But those are also the times you probably learn the most too, as, as just utterly painful and sucky as it is.
[00:59:18] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:59:18] Cliff Wilson: It, it is, it is interesting. And, and that's the other thing too, is like sometimes I think the ability to take a failure or a loss or, you know, and just eat it and learn from it and keep moving forward is such a big thing. And it's funny because like there've been times where I've had failures or whatever, and in the moment it seemed so heavy.
[00:59:39] Cliff Wilson: Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You're like, I... Because you're the only person bearing the full weight of this. Mm-hmm. And then it's like a couple years later, nobody even noticed, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, and it's like, it's like this is funny in hindsight and, and it's, it's interesting. Um, they seem to usually, people seem to usually remember your successes more than your failures.
[00:59:56] Cliff Wilson: Um, I think as long as you continue to produce successes at a higher rate- Mm-hmm ... but it's like, you know, like you said, but then those successes come from learning from those mistakes you made along the way.
[01:00:07] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. It's the catch-22 of if you didn't make those mistakes, you wouldn't be where you're at. Like, one of the little phrases I like is just fail forward as fast as possible, right?
[01:00:17] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Like you're gonna make mistakes, but okay, what did you learn from it? Like how do you set it up? And even with programming, I think of, okay, like I'm gonna go this route, but if I know that doesn't work, by the way I've constrained it, I know the next answer after it, right? Where I feel like in the past I didn't think those three steps ahead.
[01:00:35] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I'm just like, oh, this guy said this is the best program ever. Let's just do it. You know, where over time I think you get more strategic of, okay, well let's, let's, let's push it a little bit. Here's the risks that's involved, you know, is it okay? If that doesn't work, let's go this direction. I think you get a little bit better at prediction of what could happen in the future too.
[01:00:55] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. You know what, man, you, you nailed something too there is like, I, I do think that that's, well, and it's interesting because you have had so much formal education and it's like, it's interesting because I think that there's the ability to rethink. 'Cause it's like, I'm sure you've done this where you've met, you've met- Not every person with a PhD is equal.
[01:01:16] Cliff Wilson: Do you know what I mean? It's like- Oh,
[01:01:17] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: yeah, yeah ...
[01:01:18] Cliff Wilson: uh, and, you know, sometimes I try to tell people, like, um, and, and it's like I think one disadvantage of me being, um, like, having a self-directed educa- education is like, um, I'll get a piece of, like, information, right? And it's almost like a puzzle piece, and I don't know what it connects to, if that makes sense.
[01:01:38] Cliff Wilson: Um, I'm like, "Oh, that's interesting. Now what do I do with this?" You know, whereas, like, in school, there's the such this advantage where like, well, th- they go, "This connects to this." Then you're like, "Oh." But I think some people, and this is where it's like the, you gotta just still, regardless of what direction you take, you gotta be able to do the work 'cause it's like, okay, you gotta get to know it.
[01:01:56] Cliff Wilson: Whereas, like, when I go the self-directed route, I'm like I have to think about this piece. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Because I don't know what it connects to, so I have to figure it out. So it's like, you know, somebody with me- like me, I don't have that formal education, so I don't... There's no way I would ever be able to have as many puzzle pieces as you, having gone through the formal schooling.
[01:02:16] Cliff Wilson: Does that make sense? So it's like- Yeah,
[01:02:18] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: yeah ...
[01:02:18] Cliff Wilson: I think the, the, the deal I always try to tell other people that are going the self-directed route, but even, even... I have some people in my mentorships that, you know, have like masters and stuff like that, is like, I'm like, "Don't lose sight of the fact that you still need to see the big picture."
[01:02:35] Cliff Wilson: Like, you know, I have fewer puzzle pieces than somebody with their PhD, um, but I spend a lot of time trying to get the big picture. Um, and I feel like some people get so... And like we talk about the people online, where they're just like, "Oh, you know, I should do this many reps and this many sets," and they're just trying to like gather pu- as- puzzle pieces, and they never actually take the time to like look at what they have.
[01:02:57] Cliff Wilson: And so, um, I, I think it's just this endeavor where it's like you're just continually gathering these bits of information and trying to hang them in a way that makes sense, and then you can identify what the big picture you're looking at is.
[01:03:11] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, I think of those people as collectors versus integrators.
[01:03:16] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And usually the big red flag of a collector is someone who has every acronym after their name, and they're usually like just ACE level one, or they're like things you could do in eight hours. You, you know what I mean?
[01:03:33] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:03:34] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And there's like 14 of them after their name. I'm like, oh, poor bastard.
[01:03:39] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like, they're just collecting information, thinking that the collection is gonna solve their issue, and like you said, they're not figuring out where to put the right pieces. And they've been sold the lie that if they just collect more info, that'll solve their issue, and it, it... Yes, you need info at some point, but then you have to learn how to actually apply it and integrate it too.
[01:04:01] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Which, you know, sometimes can be easier said than done, but that's where the hard part comes in, I guess.
[01:04:06] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah, and I think that's the application. I mean, that's the... Like you, that's what actually determines what's, what's working and not. And the downside, I think, of a formal degree is also that you can become hyper rigid because you were literally taught that this is the way, air quotes, you know, this is the linear line of thinking, this is the end result of that, and it becomes very easy, I think, to dismiss other data in front of you.
[01:04:34] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: You know, the first time I saw a guy do a max Wingate test with a moxie on his quad, and I saw that after 30 seconds he went from 80% oxygenation to 13- I was like, "Whoa. Either this device is the world's biggest piece of crap 'cause it says it's using a ton of oxygen, or everything I learned about anaerobic exercise is probably not correct."
[01:04:58] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: But it has to be one of the two, and so of course my knee-jerk response is, "Oh, that device is a piece of shit. It can't work," right?
[01:05:04] Cliff Wilson: Yeah.
[01:05:05] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And later I find out, oh, no, what I learned was not really correct.
[01:05:10] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Y- y- you know, it's, it's interesting because I think that there's... So I've known some coaches that are somewhat effective having gone the formal education route, but then there's a couple that, you know, I, I would say, um, I, I tend to be harder on the coaches, you know, having gone the formal education route myself I probably tend to be a little harder on the formal...
[01:05:31] Cliff Wilson: on, on, I, I'm sorry. H- uh, having gone the self-directed education route, I tend to be a little harder on those that are also self-directed. It's like, 'cause like that's the path I traveled and I feel like there's a, you know, a certain way you should probably do things. Um, I- but I have a lot of respect for people when they've gone the self-directed education route and they really make their best effort to understand the science behind what they're doing.
[01:05:57] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Not just pure observation.
[01:05:59] Cliff Wilson: Yep.
[01:05:59] Cliff Wilson: And then on the other end of the spectrum, like, um, I respect those that have gone, um, deeply into the formal education route. Like, I think of you, um, Peter Fitchen, um, you know? Yeah, Peter's great. Yeah. Love Peter. Um, but that also have this incredibly open mind, um, because I think sometimes I view, um...
[01:06:23] Cliff Wilson: W- with the self-directed group I think sometimes there's this, um, lack of understanding, you know, uh, to a degree. And then sometimes I think when I've seen people that have gone the formal education route there's a rigidity that I see. Mm-hmm. And it's like I, I really respect people that have been able to take their path but avoid the pitfall that comes with that path, so to speak, and it's, it's not easy.
[01:06:48] Cliff Wilson: But like, you know, like I said, you and Pete. And, and by the way, and Pete is one of those guys. So funny enough, I've coached Pete for 12 years now.
[01:06:58] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Oh,
[01:06:59] Cliff Wilson: that's
[01:06:59] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: wild.
[01:06:59] Cliff Wilson: And... Yeah, I've coached Pete for 12 years now and, um, he was just starting his coaching journey. He was finishing his PhD when I started coaching him, and then just starting to coach.
[01:07:11] Cliff Wilson: And Pete is one of those coaches now when he has a client at my show, where I have a client in it, I think, "Oh, shit, I need to really bring it." Like, Pete has gotten to be such a formidable coach I'm like, "We gotta, gotta bring it when Pete's bringing somebody to the show."
[01:07:27] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Oh, that's cool.
[01:07:28] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. That's
[01:07:29] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: awesome.
[01:07:29] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. But, um, no, I, I, I think, uh, I think it, it is a, a process that is, um, never-ending, but once again that's the fun part.
[01:07:41] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And that's good with the application is you get to see sort of an end result too, you know? And I think that's helping to close some of those feedback loops also, which is super helpful.
[01:07:53] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. No, I agree.
[01:07:55] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Awesome. Well, where can people find out more about everything you got going on? And, uh, you got the app going. You've got a lot of social media stuff. Tell us all about it.
[01:08:04] Cliff Wilson: Yeah, yeah. Um, I'm mostly... My social media's mostly on Instagram. Uh, it's, uh, @cwteamwilson. And, um, yeah, I, I do have my new app out, the Raw Intensity app.
[01:08:14] Cliff Wilson: I got the logo on me there. Um- There you go ... the, the, the idea behind the app was that not everybody can afford a good coach. And, um, you know, the, the app is focused on the people being able to follow the training programs that my champion bodybuilders follow. It's always like you wanna be able to see what, you know, pro competitors are using and doing.
[01:08:39] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: This is kind of like your chance to follow along with those. Um, and I do have my new book coming out in, uh, about a month here. So I'm actually- Oh, tell us about that. Yeah. That's
[01:08:49] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: amazing.
[01:08:50] Cliff Wilson: Yeah. You know- Congrats. Yeah. I, I... So, uh, several years ago I wrote a bodybuilding book with Pete, Dr. Peter Peatling. Yeah, that's right.
[01:08:56] Cliff Wilson: Yes. Um, we wrote it and it was, it was good. It's done really well. It's been translated into five different languages now, I believe. Oh, awesome. And, um, and so this book is not a bodybuilding book, but it... You mentioned it before. We do so much psychological coaching in this-
[01:09:12] Cliff Wilson: Mm-hmm ...
[01:09:12] Cliff Wilson: uh, process because once again, you need your mind to be stronger.
[01:09:16] Cliff Wilson: And, um, I actually wrote it selfishly because at a certain point I was like, you know, rather than just giving this information to each client bit by bit, I'd kinda like to just have one full text of everything I'm trying to instill into them. Mm. If that makes sense. Um, I meant it to s- I, I started off with it being, um, kind of a short- You know, will read, but it grew, and now I have, like, 200 cited sources and it's, like, 250 pages.
[01:09:48] Cliff Wilson: Oh, wow. And then... But, but then I also wanted to make sure it was scientifically accurate, so I had it reviewed by, um, two PhD psychologists to make sure the information is also- Oh, nice ... ac- accurate, so, um, so put a lot of work into this. And, um, once again, it's not a bodybuilding book, but I think it will benefit bodybuilders and anybody that really just wants to get the most out of themselves in a very difficult endeavor that they are going for.
[01:10:12] Cliff Wilson: Um, yeah. And
[01:10:13] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: what's the name? Where can we get it?
[01:10:15] Cliff Wilson: Uh, I will... The name is gonna be, it's gonna be called Becoming Unrivaled.
[01:10:19] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Mm.
[01:10:19] Cliff Wilson: Um, I'm gonna warn people, it's not your s- typical, like, self-help. It's not a rah-rah, you can do it kind of book. It's more of a... It's a pretty deep dive, if that makes sense. Um, and, uh, I'm gonna sell it first on my website.
[01:10:32] Cliff Wilson: Um, it's teamwilsonbb.com. And then, uh, later on I'll be putting it on Amazon as well.
[01:10:37] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Oh, cool. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, we'll definitely make notes and everything in there. And depending on when this is out, it might be live so people can, uh, pick it up. And yeah, I'm excited to read that. I think that's a, a huge area, especially to have that kind of resource- Yeah
[01:10:49] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: for new coaches and people getting into the industry, and even people who are just doing difficult things, whether it's any type of physique sport, competition, et cetera. I think it'll be super useful.
[01:11:01] Cliff Wilson: Yeah, you'll... So that's actually why I left bodybuilding out of it, um, because I felt like, you know, while I know a lot of coaches use me and Pete's bodybuilding book, um, sometimes it can be hard for them to recommend the book to their clients- Right
[01:11:16] Cliff Wilson: because they may do things a little bit differently than we do, and then they're recommending this book that may contradict something they're prescribing, and then they have to explain the contradiction. Yeah, yeah. Um, and so my goal is that this book will also make coaches' jobs easier where... 'Cause sometimes clients put a lot of responsibility onto their coaches to fix their mental deficiencies.
[01:11:39] Cliff Wilson: Oh, yeah. And, and you mentioned- ... there's a lot of routes you can go in specialization in coaching. Like, you know, maybe someone else has chosen the route of, like, you know, the integrated health aspects or the functional, uh, aspects, and it's like not every coach can be highly educated in everything. Yeah. So this is kind of a way to maybe outsource a little bit of that without stepping on your own toes in terms of a methodology standpoint with your diet and training.
[01:12:04] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. That's great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for all the info. I'll highly encourage people to check out the app, the website, and the book that's coming out. And, uh, thank you so much for all the great stuff. I really appreciate it. This has been fun.
[01:12:16] Cliff Wilson: Thanks. I appreciate it, Mike.
[01:12:18] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Awesome. Thank you, sir.
[01:12:22] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. We really, really appreciate it. Massive thanks to Cliff for coming on the podcast and discussing all of the great sort of and the, almost the philosophy of sports and physique and just doing hard things. Uh, make sure to check out his book. We'll put a link down below.
[01:12:42] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Depending on when this comes out, it should be live, if not, uh, live very soon. I'm super stoked, uh, to give this a read. I haven't seen it yet. I'm super excited, and I will definitely, uh, pick it up. Check out his app, all the wonderful things he's got going on. If you want more from me, go to miketnelson.com/newsletter.
[01:13:01] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: You can hop onto the free newsletter, got tons of great stuff that go out pretty much daily, and would love to have you there. If you can have a few minutes or a few seconds, give us the old thumbs up, likes, downloads, uh, especially if you could give us a subscribe over at the YouTube. Granted, vast majority of this podcast is definitely audio, but trying to get above 1,000 subscribers on YouTube, which would be amazing, so if you can do that for us, we'd really appreciate it.
[01:13:32] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: As always, thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Really appreciate it. And if you have someone who may enjoy this one, share it online. Make sure to contact or tag both Cliff and myself so we can say thank you. Send it to a friend. If there's anything we can do to help you out, please let us know.
[01:13:53] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Thank you so much for listening. We'll talk to all of you next week