Dr. Emily Werner — team dietitian for the Philadelphia 76ers (NBA) and Philadelphia Flyers (NHL), and Nutrition Affairs Sport Lead at Timeline — joins Dr. Mike to unpack postbiotics, urolithin A, and why mitochondrial health matters for pro athletes and everyday people alike. They dig into the real research behind Timeline's Mitopure, how Emily navigates athlete psychology and supplement fads, and why chasing $200K gadgets rarely beats getting the fundamentals right.
Emily Werner, PhD, RD, CSSD, IFNCP is Team Dietitian for the Philadelphia 76ers (NBA) and Philadelphia Flyers (NHL), and Nutrition Affairs Sport Lead at Timeline.
Dr. Emily joins Dr. Mike to unpack postbiotics, urolithin A, and why mitochondrial health matters for pro athletes and everyday people alike, digging into the real research behind Timeline's Mitopure and why chasing $200K gadgets rarely beats getting the fundamentals right.
Expect to learn what a postbiotic actually is and how urolithin A differs from other supplements, why old-school and new-school sports dietitians disagree on peptides and supplement fads, how chronic undereating quietly undermines performance in women's sports, what the current human performance research on urolithin A actually shows, how Mitopure is dosed and why urolithin A can't be reliably food-sourced, and why product quality and manufacturing integrity matter more than marketing claims, and much more.
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Episode Timestamps:
2:21 Welcome & introductions
6:09 What is a postbiotic? Pre-, pro-, and postbiotics explained
7:09 Urolithin A: the postbiotic behind Mitopure
8:19 How Emily started consulting for Timeline
10:11 Old-school vs. new-school sports dietitians on supplements
13:53 Peptides, anecdata, and why athletes ignore the data
20:05 The hardest lesson: letting go when clients won't listen
21:15 Money, ego, and athletes chasing $200K wellness gadgets
24:53 Chronic undereating in women's sports
30:48 Nutrition's real job: keeping athletes available to play
33:19 Inside Mitopure: Timeline's flagship urolithin A product
35:06 Mitochondria, mitophagy, and why they matter as we age
38:16 Diet, fasting, and exercise as natural mitophagy triggers
43:36 What the performance research on urolithin A actually shows
53:19 Aging, aerobic capacity, and Emily's 101-year-old grandma
55:40 Mitopure dosing: how much urolithin A and when to take it
57:14 Why urolithin A can't be food-sourced (and can't be faked)
1:03:19 Why product quality and integrity matter in supplements
[00:00:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Hello. Hi. How are you doing?
[00:00:13] Dr. Emily Werner: Good. How are
[00:00:14] Dr. Mike T Nelson: you? Oh, not too bad. I apologize. I was running a little bit late there, but yeah. No problem.
[00:00:19] Dr. Emily Werner: It's all goes.
[00:00:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I'm just gonna tape my little microphone down here so it doesn't move around and make any noise.
[00:00:29] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, can you hear me okay, or should I use headphones too?
[00:00:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Uh, I think it sounds all right.
[00:00:34] Does it sound okay to you?
[00:00:35] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, sounds fine to me.
[00:00:36] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. It should be all right.
[00:00:38] Dr. Emily Werner: Sure.
[00:00:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Cool. And let me turn off my phone, so everyone else will probably try to text me, of course, when it happens. Yeah.
[00:00:49] Dr. Emily Werner: I know exactly what you mean.
[00:00:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And remind me where you're at. You're on the East Coast, I assume, correct? Yep,
[00:00:55] Dr. Emily Werner: Philly.
[00:00:56] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I, I figured you were in that area 'cause you work with them. But, uh, awesome. Sweet. Any questions or anything before we get started? This is pretty informal, kinda same thing as before.
[00:01:10] Dr. Emily Werner: Nope. Should be
[00:01:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: fine.
[00:01:11] Dr. Emily Werner: All
[00:01:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: right. Perfect. All right. So I got that. I'm just gonna close a couple more windows- Well- ... just to make sure nothing, uh, gets too crazy.
[00:01:27] Do, do, do.
[00:01:32] The one time I don't do this, my computer gets all pissy at me.
[00:01:37] Dr. Emily Werner: That usually means you have too much on your computer.
[00:01:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, I know. I had a... My morning was sitting at the Lexus dealer waiting for new brakes and rotors, so
[00:01:47] Dr. Emily Werner: Oh,
[00:01:48] Dr. Mike T Nelson: no. I mean, I could do work there, which is all right, but usually it's more random stuff, and then by the time I leave I've got 800 windows open, so.
[00:01:56] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah.
[00:01:57] Dr. Mike T Nelson: All right. Perfect. I'll do a short little pause and, uh, off we go.
[00:02:03] Dr. Emily Werner: Sounds good.
[00:02:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Welcome to the podcast, doc. How are you today?
[00:02:09] Dr. Emily Werner: I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Thank you so much for being on here. Really appreciate it. We got to meet in person at ISSN, which was awesome, and got to see you speak there, and got to ask you all my crazy questions afterwards in the hallway, which was nice.
[00:02:26] Dr. Emily Werner: I love a good, crazy question.
[00:02:28] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And it's, it's funny, you're a good friend of our friend Gianna, and we so happen to be hanging at her place, uh, just outside of New York. So we went there for a podcast with Don Saladino, which was great, and Gianna's like, "Oh, you guys, if you wanna stay with us, you can."
[00:02:45] We're like, "Oh, yes, that'd be so fun." And the night before we're supposed to leave, um, I don't remember how we got talking about it, and we were talking about, um, some of the timeline products and things like that, and she's like, "Oh, do you know my friend Emily there?" I said, "No, I've heard her name, but I don't know her."
[00:03:02] She's like, "Well, I think she's giving a talk at ISSN." I was like, "Oh, no way." So- Small world ... she was kind enough to introduce us, and that was great.
[00:03:09] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, it worked out perfect timing. And the funny thing is I've, I've actually never met Gianna in person. We-
[00:03:14] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh. ... we,
[00:03:15] Dr. Emily Werner: we became connected by another mutual friend a couple years back, and, and now we, we collaborate together.
[00:03:22] You know, I send her referrals all the time, and l- I feel like I've known her for years even though we've never physically met.
[00:03:28] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, it's kinda, it's kinda weird how that goes. Like, I had that happen years ago. A guy I was working with in the supplement industry, I had talked to him, I think, off and on for nine years, and at one point he's like, "Hey," you know, 'cause I would test just N of one different supplements for him and stuff.
[00:03:46] Mm-hmm. And he's like, he's like, "Hey, I got this new supplement. I'm gonna s- I'm gonna send you. Do you mind testing it?" I was like, "Okay, sure." So he sends it, and it's in a, a clear container. He went to Home Depot and bought a Good Grips thing for, like, measuring glue and sticks it in there. No return address, no COA, no labeling, no nothing.
[00:04:06] And I asked him, I'm like, "Can you give me some idea what's going on?" Yeah. He's like- Spill ... "Well, I can tell you it's grass-safe, it's non-hormonal, but whatever you do, don't waste it 'cause it probably tastes bad, and it's ungodly expensive." And I'm like, "Okay." So I've, I had it sitting on my counter for a while.
[00:04:27] I remember standing over my kitchen sink, and I opened it and I'm like, "Oh, there's not really any smell to it or anything." So I put some in a tablespoon and took it, and I was like, "Oh." absolutely the most astringent thing I've ever had Oof Like, I've never had jet fuel, but it, it- That was the first thought that went through my mind, rapidly followed by, "Did I just poison myself?"
[00:04:51] Like-
[00:04:52] Dr. Emily Werner: Right ...
[00:04:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I've never met this guy before. Is this some nine-year catfish thing to get, you know, a crazy nerd to poison himself? And-
[00:05:02] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah ...
[00:05:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: and later I found out it was, uh, it was a ketone ester that actually Patrick Arnold had synthesized. Uh-
[00:05:09] Dr. Emily Werner: Which that makes sense for its, its smell
[00:05:12] and its-
[00:05:13] Yep. Yeah ... you know, but, I mean, my, my brain that has watched many a Criminal Minds episodes is reeling at the story you just told me.
[00:05:21] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And then later he... I did meet him eventually in person, so I told him this whole story, and he's like, "Oh, I'm so glad you didn't throw it up," 'cause I think he said at that point, like, one tablespoon cost him, like, thousands of dollars, 'cause he literally just synthesized it by hand just to see- Oh my God
[00:05:37] Dr. Emily Werner: you know, if it could be made, 'cause they weren't concerned about, you know, scaling or anything like that. It was just- Sure ... literally, uh, can we make this by hand and will any crazy human try it?
[00:05:48] Just, not to, not to drop another show, but this is some Breaking Bad stuff. Like, this is-
[00:05:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah ... yeah I don't recommend anybody do this.
[00:05:54] Dr. Emily Werner: This is a horrible idea in hindsight. Like, I don't-
[00:05:56] I was gonna say ...
[00:05:56] Dr. Mike T Nelson: recommend that ... your fate
[00:05:57] Dr. Emily Werner: that day was, was higher than mine would have been.
[00:06:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so tell us a little bit about how... Well, two questions, how you got to work with Timeline, and I guess a bigger question before you start there is this whole category now of, like, p- I think it's correct, postbiotics.
[00:06:16] Dr. Emily Werner: Is that the- Mm-hmm ... correct term? It is. Like, that might be new for people. We've heard of, you know, prebiotics and all that kind of stuff, but what is a, a postbiotic just kind of as a general class, and we can get a little bit more detailed about your work there.
[00:06:29] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. So I think the, the easiest way that I think of a postbiotic is chronologically with the other biotics, right?
[00:06:36] Dr. Emily Werner: So you've got prebiotics, which are, uh, things that help the gut bacteria. You've got probiotics, which are literally strains of the gut bacteria themselves, and then you've got postbiotics, which are a class of molecules that essentially if you eat the foods that are its precursor, it requires the gut to transform it into that nutrient itself.
[00:07:01] Dr. Mike T Nelson: So the nutrient we connected over, urolithin A, is a- Mm-hmm ... postbiotic because you can get it from its whole food sources like pomegranates and mixed berries, um, but it itself, urolithin A, does not exist in the natural world. It has to be converted from the gut, so that's why it's a postbiotic.
[00:07:22] Dr. Emily Werner: Are there other compounds other than urolithin A that are in this postbiotic category?
[00:07:28] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You know, I mean, yes. Um.
[00:07:30] Dr. Emily Werner: I just don't know of any that are products, I guess maybe is how I'm thinking about it.
[00:07:33] No. And I, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's just gonna be like more and more that's found- Yeah ... over the next few years. But like technically anything that the gut converts into something else could be considered a postbiotic.
[00:07:44] It's, it's not, you know... It, it, it's a, it's a great term that describes, uh, a point in the process of digestion, but it is, does not warrant its own like magical category, I guess I'd say.
[00:07:59] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And how did you come to work for Timeline? Obviously you have another, I guess you could say dual role there, being a nutritionist for some basketball team there in Philadelphia.
[00:08:10] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. Yeah. I, um, it was actually kind of through my job in, in Philadelphia, um, being a sports dietician, constantly being, um, requested to look into different products and, um, I had a coworker who came across Timeline back in 2021 and it was, it was not long after Timeline had launched Mitopure, their, their, um, flagship product.
[00:08:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And she was like, "I think this would be great for our guys. Um, what do you think?" And so I, I dug into it and I actually just ended up reaching out to the company and said, "Do you do wholesale?" Um, and then next thing I know I'm on a Zoom call with the chief medical officer, Anurag Singh, and the chief marketing officer, Federico Luna, and which for me in my field was kind of like normal.
[00:08:59] Dr. Emily Werner: I didn't think anything of it. Um, but then by the end of the call they were offering me a consultant position. And- Nice ... and it was, um, it was wonderful because I, I was always the type, I still am the type of dietician that like, I believe in food first, but not food only. And I would say that I was much more of a food only kind of dietician back then.
[00:09:21] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I never envisioned myself, um, consulting with a supplement company. But Timeline really opened my eyes, not only to just the benefits of kind of having an, a more in-depth knowledge of that world, but also broadening my horizons to more of the, um, let's call it like less Western medicine spaces, um, that I think that my...
[00:09:41] Dr. Emily Werner: I recognize my, my training both as a dietician and an exercise physiologist kind of kept me, um, sequestered in. And so now having, having worked with Timeline for, oh my gosh, has that been five years? Going on five years.
[00:09:55] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Nice.
[00:09:56] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, yeah, it really, it really has just like broadened my horizons and made me that much better of a practitioner.
[00:10:02] Dr. Mike T Nelson: How do you, especially as a PhD RD, how do you explain to other RDs who... What I've seen over the years is a lot of the newer RDs now are much more up to date. There's a bunch that do just only sports nutrition, work with teams, work with athletes. Right. But I sound like some old person, but if I go back, like, 10 or 15 years, I feel like everything was kinda outdated, and it was like, "Ooh, protein's bad.
[00:10:30] Dr. Emily Werner: It's gonna kill you." Yes. And, um, how do you try to, I guess, explain to older RDs maybe that you can still do a food-forward approach, but you don't necessarily have to throw all supplements in the trash bin, even though there's some that are, you know- Yeah ... probably not worth the money. There's a whole bunch of sketchy ones, but we've got tons of data now on great things like protein powders, fish oil, creatine, all sorts of stuff.
[00:10:56] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, absolutely. I, I agree with you completely. Even in the short span that's been my career as a dietician going on only 10 years, I've seen the shift. Um, I think a primary factor in that has been the, the vast expansion of social media. Um, I think that there are a lot more opportunities for folks like us to have these kind of conversations and get that stuff out there.
[00:11:19] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, because like I said, our training really begins in this super, like, tunnel visioned look on what nutrition, and sport nutrition for that matter, is. Um, but with the expansion of social media, just so much more access to information, I think that students nowadays, um, can learn so much more without really even trying that hard.
[00:11:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, which combats directly with the, what I believe is, like, the propensity for a little bit more laziness nowadays because- Yeah. ... information is so readily available. So it really is a dichotomy, but I think that the open-mindedness of dieticians nowadays, like younger dieticians is, is much more expanse than it was in my, even my generation.
[00:12:08] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, and having conversations with older dieticians now, it's still a lot of them have the, um, the same kind of notions of just, like, if it doesn't have 50 years of research or is backed by the FDA or USDA or something like that, like, I'm not gonna get behind it. Or, or, um, even working with some of, like, the dietician entities in my work with Timeline and trying to connect the two, they're like, "Mm, doesn't have enough research behind it, you know, to, for us to, like, feel comfortable being associated with it."
[00:12:41] And to me, like, I get where that's coming from 100%, um, but to me, the difference is that Timeline has over 15 years of well-published clinical studies, and we're talking, like, high impact journal clinical studies. Um, and, and- I, I can open my eyes to a bit more of... I think some people have the black and white, like if it's industry funded, I'm not even paying attention to it, and I just think that that's naive.
[00:13:07] I think it's choosing an easier path to just, like, kind of make your own life easier, and if that, and if that works, that's fine. I mean, there's a million ways to live life. Like, if you wanna be a dietician that way, and you get your clients, and you live your life, by all means. But for me, I am, I'm f- far too often faced with questions about what is new and emerging in our field for me to be able to just sit back and say, "Nope, it's easy.
[00:13:34] Divide it this way," or whatever. Like, no, I live in a gray area of everything.
[00:13:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and I think anyone who does any applied work, like, everything is gray.
[00:13:43] Dr. Emily Werner: Correct.
[00:13:44] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You know? I mean, I was talking on a podcast the other day- I had someone not really berating me, but giving me a bad time about, you know, SLUPP332 peptide that they wanted to take, but they were afraid of creatine.
[00:13:59] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. And I'm like, "What world do we live in now?" Like, four rat studies versus, you know, 530 plus peer reviewed studies on creatine monohydrate alone, you know? But it's just-
[00:14:11] Yeah ...
[00:14:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: it's not sexy. I get it. Like, it's not the in thing, even though creatine is kind of popular again now.
[00:14:17] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah.
[00:14:17] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, versus, "Oh, well that's all industry sponsored research," which some of it is because who's realistically gonna pay for the research?
[00:14:26] Dr. Emily Werner: Like- Exactly ... anyone who's done performance research at a university, there are places that do it, sometimes you get lucky, but most of the time it's sort of a, "Yeah, we got a bike, we got a bunch of exercise cards and, you know, metabolic things. We could probably do this study," and they just do it 'cause they want to do it.
[00:14:44] Dr. Mike T Nelson: There isn't really, like, big science of performance that's like funding all these things.
[00:14:50] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, exactly, and that's the, the, the other issue is that things in nutrition and even exercise physiology change daily. Oh, yeah. Like, there's always something new. There's always things changing and, like, that's why people get so gruff about when the FDA and USDA put out the dietary guidelines for Americans and it, and it changes but doesn't change.
[00:15:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. They're like, "Well, I don't know what to believe." And it's like, it's like there... It always comes back to there are foundational principles that we know to be true, and then everything on top of that is in flux because the world is in flux and things are changing. So yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to get people to recognize, like, what I tell you today might be true today, but come back to me in a week and we might have to have a different conversation.
[00:15:40] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, and on the flip side, like you said, I had this discussion with one of my coaches, Adam Glass, and he was asking me, which is a good question, he's like, "Okay, so of all the research and stuff you read, like, what are some things that you read that, that legitimately changed how you practice?" And there are some things, but they're, they're really pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.
[00:16:01] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, we haven't really found something that eclipses exercise. We haven't really found something that helps with good solid nutrition, eating like an adult, and, you know, those basics have been going on for hundreds of thousands of, of years, so we would not expect- those to change, but it just, I get nervous 'cause it feels like everything is trying to be reduced to a 20-second dancing monkey on TikTok, and everybody's attention span is that of a gnat, and nobody wants to listen.
[00:16:29] Dr. Emily Werner: 100%.
[00:16:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah
[00:16:30] Dr. Emily Werner: And
[00:16:31] Dr. Mike T Nelson: athletes are no exception to this either, 'cause they're, they're humans just like everybody else.
[00:16:34] Dr. Emily Werner: Athletes are a very big part of that problem. I mean, problem is a strong word, but yeah, they have... They are human. They have attention spans just as short if not shorter, because they, on top of b- having access to the same amount of just information that we do, they're also being targeted by- Yep
[00:16:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: people in their life who are constantly telling them something, what they should do, "Oh, I heard about this new thing." And if it's not people in their life, it's the people around them that are then telling those people, that it's like, it's like they've got these three degrees of separation or more of people that are, like, trying to influence them in some way.
[00:17:11] Dr. Emily Werner: I've had to have conversations with athletes, like they'll come to me with something they see on TikTok or Instagram and like... And they're like, "Oh, what do you think about this?" And I'm like- I'm like, "They are not talking to you."
[00:17:24] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:17:25] Dr. Emily Werner: You, you are not the consumer of this post because you are in the, like, 1% of athleticism, and then on top of that you have to follow certain rules and regulations that the average person does not.
[00:17:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep.
[00:17:37] Dr. Emily Werner: And that's... And, and it's a really hard message for athletes to hear because, like, they see... Let's take peptides as an example. Like, they hear the great things and they see, you know, they know somebody who's done it and raves about it, 'cause that's all there is right now is anecdotal, like-
[00:17:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right ...
[00:17:53] Dr. Emily Werner: you know, anecdata, as people say.
[00:17:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, there's no actual clinical information about it, and on top of that, it is banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency. But athletes don't wanna hear that. They just- No. ... wanna, like, listen to their friend of a friend who, like, had really great success and it made them so much better. And I'm like, "That doesn't mean it's gonna make you better.
[00:18:12] Dr. Emily Werner: You're already in the 1%. You wanna be in the .5%? Like, that's what you're... Are you, uh... Are you striving for that? Like, what are we doing here?" And that's, I would say to your, your friend's question of, like, what have you read over your career that's, uh, actually changed the way that you practice, for me it's not even the nutrition or the exercise stuff, it's the soft skill type things.
[00:18:33] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's becoming a better communicator that I can get these messages actually, like, through the heads of these athletes because if you just stick to what is hard fact, you're gonna lose them 'cause- Mm-hmm ... people don't wanna... My, my PhD advisor used to say to me, "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind's made up."
[00:18:55] Dr. Emily Werner: Yes.
[00:18:56] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You know? It's that mentality.
[00:18:58] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. I had that interaction on the old Ind- Instagram the other day, and I was talking about, "Eh, I don't think Zone 2 is all that great," and guy's like, "Oh, you say all these things, but you need to back it up with data." And I'm like, "Okay, that, that's fair," so I put up, like, five studies of whatever.
[00:19:16] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And his reply then was basically, "Well, if you wanna be healthy and have good aesthetics, just do Zone 2 and lift." And I'm like, okay, so this didn't change your opinion at all- Exactly ... but you were mad that I didn't have data. The data I put contradicted your opinion, and now you just doubled down on your opinion again.
[00:19:35] Dr. Emily Werner: Correct. Correct. Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind's made up. Like, okay. That's-
[00:19:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah ...
[00:19:40] Dr. Emily Werner: that's how you wanna live your... And that's the other piece that you, you have to... To me, one of the true tests of, like, a good practitioner is the ability to just move on.
[00:19:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yes. Like,
[00:19:50] Dr. Emily Werner: let go and just be like, "All right.
[00:19:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You're gonna believe what you wanna believe, and that's fine. Live your life."
[00:19:56] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. That's been the hardest lesson for me to learn over the years because it, when you start, you're just so naive, and I thought, "Oh, you know, I've done a fair amount of exercise phys. This is all exercise phys, nutrition, metabolism," like, "I understand that.
[00:20:09] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I'll, I'll be good." And then you realize, oh my God, like most days, like 80, 90% of it's psychology and mindset when you're actually working with, like, live humans who, who give a crap. Like, by all means, you have to ha- know the physiology. You have to give them stuff that works or you're gonna be unemployed very fast.
[00:20:26] Dr. Emily Werner: But a lot of it is just getting them to do the better things that you want them to do, and I don't wanna say making deals with them, but trying to make it sexy or making concessions of, "Okay, you're gonna do this, but then are you also gonna let me do this?" And just figuring out, 'cause at the end of the day, if, if they're better, they're better, right?
[00:20:46] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. There is no optimal. You're not gonna fix everything overnight. Doesn't matter if it's general population, elite level athlete, whatever. They, they all have their own things. And athletes, I think, are sometimes even harder, 'cause they don't have the check of money. Like, a lot of the average person is usually limited by their budget of what they can spend money on.
[00:21:06] Dr. Emily Werner: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:07] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, I've seen people spend crazy amounts of money on what I think was this dumbest thing ever, and you get on a call and they're like, "Hey, I just bought this whatever thing for, like, 200 grand. What do you think?" And you kinda have to... And you can tell they're so excited about it, and you just don't wanna piss on their leg and tell them it's raining.
[00:21:25] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. You know?
[00:21:26] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I think, I hope it works.
[00:21:29] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, yeah. I'm like, "Oh, well, let me know how that goes, bro."
[00:21:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right, 'cause I- I've had an athlete text me before, like, I think he, uh, it was a couple years ago, but I think he texted me like a BPC-157 something, and they, and he was like, "What do you think of this?"
[00:21:45] Dr. Emily Werner: And I was like, "Let me do some searching." And then I was like, "Nope, definitely banned. Don't do this." Yeah. He's like, "Oh, I just wasted 50 bucks." And I was like- ... "A- that's me dropping a dollar on the street." Like-
[00:21:55] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right, right. ...
[00:21:57] Dr. Emily Werner: you're gonna be fine.
[00:22:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And it's also, I, I was talking to my buddy w- who you know, Dr.
[00:22:03] Dr. Emily Werner: Ben House, who I love. Oh,
[00:22:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: mm-hmm.
[00:22:05] Dr. Emily Werner: My buddy Dr. Tommy Wood a while ago, and I mentioned this before on the podcast too, but the more high-level people you work with, the more you realize how freaky the true freaks actually are-
[00:22:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm ...
[00:22:19] Dr. Emily Werner: and what they can do and perform on what I would consider is, like, eating like a fourth grader c- constantly, absolutely still to this day boggles my mind.
[00:22:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: One word: genetics.
[00:22:34] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. We'll never- It's crazy to see ...
[00:22:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: it's insane. And I, I hope in my lifetime we never truly understand it, because the minute that that understanding occurs-
[00:22:44] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah ...
[00:22:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: is, I think we're all headed downhill very quickly as a s- as a species. But yeah, that's what I, like, constantly not only remind players but remind, like, students or younger dieticians, and they're like...
[00:22:59] Dr. Emily Werner: I, I've seen people get, you know, all up in arms about players eating Chick-fil-A or something.
[00:23:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:23:05] Dr. Emily Werner: And I'm like... Or there's some, some that I've seen across the
[00:23:08] Dr. Mike T Nelson: board eating- Seed oils. Oh my God, take those seed oils away, right? There's, how many teams have done that now, and I'm like, "This is your priority for your season, your horrible season?
[00:23:17] Dr. Emily Werner: Seed oils are your number one thing?" Exactly. Like, oh my God.
[00:23:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Exactly. That's why I'm like, can we have a practical conversation about this?
[00:23:23] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah.
[00:23:24] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, this, this makes no sense. But like you said, there are enough resources to, to conduct our business in such a way that it is providing top products. You can easily remove seed oils and cook- Yes
[00:23:37] Dr. Emily Werner: with only olive oil, avocado oil. Like, we can afford to do that. But I, again, remind everybody, we're not the normal group. We're not the... You know, we are the 1% of athletics of, of, of what we can provide to, to our players. So it's like it's facing it with the reality of at the same time that we can re- you know, remove seed oils, they're still gonna go get Five Guys for dinner that night.
[00:24:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:24:06] Dr. Emily Werner: And that's just the way that it is, so.
[00:24:09] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. That's what I also... That's why I'm laughing, because you see these things go on. And again, well-intentioned, like, they have the resources to do it. Well- Yeah ... thought out from an execution standpoint. And then you see your athlete or whatever eating wherever they stopped at a drive-through on the way home.
[00:24:26] Dr. Emily Werner: You're like, "Okay, what are we, what are we doing here?"
[00:24:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep. Yeah. I've, my, my boss said it great once. Like, sometimes the best thing to do is nothing. Yep, and that's just how you... Like I said, you have to be a, as a practitioner, you have to be able to determine what is worth the fight and what is not.
[00:24:44] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. And unfortunately, like even with some women's sports, it's just, it's gotten way better, but I've just noticed just chronic undereating.
[00:24:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. You know? And then you've got, you know, sometimes very well-intentioned people in their camp or friends or relatives who are, who are just berating these poor women about food quality, and I'm like, "You're, you're probably not even hitting 30% of what you need to hit. Like, for God's sake, like if you want a hamburger, please have a hamburger.
[00:25:14] Dr. Emily Werner: Have a sandwich. Like, just start with some calories, please."
[00:25:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Exactly. People's, people's priorities are way out of whack. And I, and speaking of Ben House, I just saw a clip of a podcast he did recently, like it was on my Instagram yesterday, and he said something to this effect of like, yeah, you've got these people coming with questions about, you know, uh, the, the, the people who are not exercising daily and eating healthy diets are the first ones to say, "But dear God, I need my turmeric."
[00:25:42] Dr. Emily Werner: Like- Yeah. ... you know, where's my curcumin pills? Like, it's, it's, I, to me, priorities are you have to start with the foundation, and then that's, and that's healthy eating in general or doing the best that you can.
[00:25:56] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and I think a lot of that, I think people would be surprised at how much of even RDs work or sometimes PhDs, how much of the work is just logistics.
[00:26:05] Dr. Emily Werner: And I think this was kind of highlighted with the World Cup recently of, was it a team from Norway that was trying to import all their food? Norway, yeah. And, and people- Yep ... were just like, "Oh my God, how are they doing this?" Or whatever. But I mean, I remember a friend of mine was a nutritionist at the Sochi Olympics, and that was just a complete clusterfuck of just- Yeah
[00:26:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: and the teams that did the logistics well, which was excruciatingly hard because of the location and everything else, you could see that, again, anecdotal, but did a lot better. Right? Again, going back to the basics. Like, if you're just not getting enough calories period, or you get food poisoning, or, you know, whatever, you have something you're not used to or cross-contamination, you go down the list, like, I understand why teams that have the ability would try to control as many variables as you can.
[00:26:55] Dr. Emily Werner: That makes perfect sense to me.
[00:26:57] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Absolutely, one million percent. I agree.
[00:27:00] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for entertaining all my, my questions there. No,
[00:27:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I love
[00:27:04] Dr. Emily Werner: it. The reason I do that is 'cause you get a lot of questions from new, newer RDs who I think are expecting that, oh, we're gonna, you know, optimize their magnesium by 25 milligrams more per night, and that's gonna be the difference, and then it's this rude awakening of, oh my God...
[00:27:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, the first nutrition logs I ever got from a high-level athlete, I thought the coach was pranking me. I literally thought it was a, a joke, and there's a video camera somewhere. And I'm like, these are track athletes. I'm like, I know how fast they ran because everything is documented, and you can look it up, and you're doing that on this?
[00:27:43] Dr. Emily Werner: There's just, there's just no way. Yeah. And then you realize it's, you know, back to the basics. It's a lot of logistics. Yeah. It's the human nature side. It's the psychology, the mindset, and putting it all together.
[00:27:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. One of the things that students ask me all the time, like, "Oh my God, it must be so great working with athletes that are just, like, so motivated to, like, do all the right things nutritionally."
[00:28:05] Dr. Emily Werner: And I'm like, "Couldn't tell you 'cause I don't know what that's like."
[00:28:07] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Who are those people?
[00:28:09] Dr. Emily Werner: Like, that's not who I work with. Don't get me wrong, there are the handful that are-
[00:28:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, yeah, they exist, for sure ...
[00:28:15] Dr. Emily Werner: on top of it. They r- like, I, I've been locked in with players, for sure. And then there's guys where- They're gonna want chicken tenders at halftime.
[00:28:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep.
[00:28:26] Dr. Emily Werner: And there is not a thing I can do about it. And, and then they'll still go out and score 30, and it's like, all right, well
[00:28:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah, and
[00:28:34] Dr. Emily Werner: it- What's the big deal? Like...
[00:28:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and at some point it's like we still have to look at what the end results are and, like, figure out, kind of like pick your battles, right?
[00:28:45] Dr. Emily Werner: Exactly. You know, I had one athlete literally tell me he's not doing any of the nutrition stuff I recommended because he's still performing in the 0.5% of the elite, and it was pretty damn hard to argue with him about that. I'm like, "You got, you got me there. I don't know what you want me to tell you, man."
[00:29:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep. Like, "It's been great. You've got my number. Uh, call me- Yep ... if you ever need me." Yeah. "Call me with some changes." Like, yeah, absolutely.
[00:29:10] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. And then you do have the other athletes who are very much like dot their I's, cross their T's, very much like, "Okay, you tell me to do this, like you tell me to run through a brick wall, like I'm gonna run through the brick wall."
[00:29:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like those athletes- Yeah ... 100% do exist. I just think the general population thinks that's all elite athletes, and it's definitely not. No.
[00:29:30] Dr. Emily Werner: No, and I, and I think that even within this world of working with these athletes, the two different types of athletes, there are times where the athlete who thinks they're doing all the right things is still not performing as well as the one who's eating- For sure.
[00:29:43] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, right? And that's where you have to hard- have the hard conversation of like genetics and whatnot. But my argument, 'cause some, some people hear that and they're like, "Well, then why, why does your position exist? Why do, why do you even have a job?" And it's a fair question. But at the end of the day, to me, it comes down to longevity of the two.
[00:30:03] Dr. Emily Werner: Yes. Because the person who's not eating well is going to fizzle out faster and probably harder than this person who could have a steady career for a long time doing all the right things. And then on top of that, you go past the career point. Like, I tell my guys all the time, like, "Don't get me wrong, I'm here to keep you healthy day in and day out, but what would really be the goal for me as a practitioner is to see you be healthy- Froze right there
[00:30:34] Dr. Mike T Nelson: the rest of your life."
[00:30:35] Dr. Emily Werner: Oh. Say that again. You just froze for a sec. You said you're there to keep them healthy?
[00:30:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, so I t- I remind them I'm there to keep them healthy on a day to day, but that my real goal is to make them healthy the rest of their lives. I, I want to help them impart with knowledge and life skills and things that are just going to make them healthy long-term and not, not just in the short time period that they're w- on my team.
[00:31:00] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. And usually I find it's a overgeneralization, but athletes that tend to be a little bit older kinda know that they're getting closer to the end of their career tend to pay a lot more attention. Because now they realize, like, oh man, like, if I love playing the sport, and if I could play this for two or three more years potentially, not only is that a good income, you know, a lot of the people who want the longevity really do enjoy doing it, and then they realize, oh, I better get my shit together.
[00:31:31] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Well, it's, it's because it's those guys who start to realize that doing the things the way that they had always done them doesn't get them as far anymore.
[00:31:39] Dr. Emily Werner: Yes.
[00:31:40] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I, that's why when I have veterans on the team that I work closely with, I'm like, "Hey, can you go tell rookie over there?" Yeah. Like, like remind him to do these things.
[00:31:50] Dr. Emily Werner: And I, I've had some great veterans in the past who have, like, helped me out because I, it's, it's all learning. You know, like, I, what I do on a day-to-day basis is not going to change their free throw percentage. It's not going to change exactly how fast they are on the court. It's really not. That's genetics, and that's training, and that's skills.
[00:32:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: But what I do on a day-to-day basis is going to help keep them available to play-
[00:32:17] Dr. Emily Werner: Yep ...
[00:32:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: in both the short term and the long term, and that's, that's all I really care about.
[00:32:23] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. And especially matters with, you know, especially in the NBA, playoffs tend to be pretty long, is that the, you know, playoffs are always by definition at the end of the season.
[00:32:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You know, pick any sport, a lot of people are, are, are beat up, even non-contact sports per se. Um, and then they start to realize, oh, okay, like, if this playoff series goes to seven games, like, I wanna perform in game seven, you know? 'Cause that's when it really matters the most, so.
[00:32:47] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, exactly. Nutrition requires the same amount of, like, training throughout an entire season that every other aspect of training they have does.
[00:32:55] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I, I believe strongly that the team that wins the championship at the end is the one that has the best longevity on top of, you know, team chemistry and skill. But, like, if you can stay healthy and you can s- get, stay on the court, you're probably gonna do pretty well.
[00:33:10] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, yeah. Um, so shifting a little bit back to, uh, to Timeline, uh, tell us about the main product you guys have there.
[00:33:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I've used it in the past, like we said, and it was one of the few things, and I don't get paid anything for this, that actually I did see a difference in recovery in HRV. You know, it wasn't like my HRV score, you know, doubled or anything crazy- Yeah ... but it was, it was noticeable. I had a couple clients try it.
[00:33:35] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, they noticed the same thing. And in all honesty, like a lot of the stuff I try- Just doesn't really do anything acutely, to be honest, you know? Yeah, yeah. Maybe it does long-term, maybe you just can't tell. Um, but it was one of the things where it's like, oh wow, that actually is a, a noticeable difference.
[00:33:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. So I think Timeline's flagship product is called Mitopure, and, um, and I think it ties in exactly to this, like, longevity and kind of, um, looking to the future type product. Um, because if you talk about acute awareness of how something, you know, affects you, caffeine's really the only thing out there-
[00:34:13] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah.
[00:34:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: you know, that people are gonna feel immediately, right? So like I, I think of supplements, like you said, in a little chronological kind of way. So when it comes to Mitopure, um, which is the same for your listeners, it's the same urolithin A comp- compound that we were discussing earlier that's a postbiotic.
[00:34:30] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, and its mechanism of action is in the mitochondria. So we all know mitochondria to be the powerhouse of the cell. Um, and on top of being that powerhouse, meaning like where all of our energy is created, the mitochondria are involved in just thousands of processes that have snowball effects on things like inflammation, um, disease progression, and, and really they are at the core of so many cellular processes.
[00:34:57] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, now what happens as we age and as we incur stress, our mitochondria become less efficient, and therefore less effective at whatever job they are meant to do. So that could be energy production in the muscles, um, that could be just kind of like keeping nerves and everything healthy, um, in our nervous system 'cause all of our cells except red blood cells contain mitochondria.
[00:35:21] Dr. Emily Werner: So like if that alone doesn't tell you it's important to keep them healthy, I don't know what does. But, um, what urolithin A does is it helps to trigger the mitochondrial recycling process, which is something that we do naturally as humans. Right now we are con- we are in this, um, r- recycling, you know, process within our bodies.
[00:35:41] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, it's called mitophagy, so if anyone's heard of autophagy is cellular recycling. Mitophagy is mitochondrial recycling. And doing good things like eating, um, a good diet, uh, and exercising and resting, you know, those things also promote this mitophagy process. But urolithin A has been the first compound that's been identified to target mitophagy specifically and kind of ramp it up.
[00:36:06] Dr. Emily Werner: So when you can recycle more mitochondria, they can... you, you can create space for mitochondrial biogenesis, which is the production of new mitochondria, and when the mitochondria are new, they are higher functioning and they can, they just are more efficient and therefore more effective. So that's kind of the shortest way to describe what urolithin A does, even though it is quite a story.
[00:36:31] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and to me it's brilliant that they sort of recycle a lot of the parts per se of the mitochondria. Yeah. It's not like you throw out the mito- oh, this guy mitochondria's used so we just throw him in the trash heap and try to recreate a brand new one. I think of it like the first car I ever had was a '84 Oldsmobile, and I think I got it, bought it from my parents with, God, what'd it have?
[00:36:53] Dr. Emily Werner: 200,000 miles or 185,000 miles on it or something. But instead of being a broke college student, I would go to the we pull your own parts and grab an alternator and, and put it in there. Yeah. Like I would get old parts from other cars and, you know, put it in there. It's kind of like your body doing the same thing of, you know, hey, this part of the mitochondria is still good so let, let's just keep that part.
[00:37:15] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, this one's gone to shit so let's take that out and swap this other part in and
[00:37:19] Dr. Emily Werner: Exactly. Yeah, I think, I think it's a great example of how brilliant the human body is because that it's, that is its own evolutionary mechanism, right? Because the mitochondria are so important and we need them across all of our cell types that we evolved to having our own renewal process for the mitochondria that doesn't require a full killing and recreation because that's a, that's a very energetically expensive process- Mm-hmm
[00:37:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: to do. So to be able to just like break it, break down the mitochondria and reconfigure it with parts of other broken down mitochondria, then y- and you can create new ones in that way, I, I think it's incredibly sophisticated of a, of a, of a physiologic process.
[00:38:07] Dr. Emily Werner: And what are some things in, you know, other than supplements that can help this mitochondrial process?
[00:38:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: 'Cause I think, like we talked about, supplements can be helpful, maybe peptides, who knows. But this is something that, just like we talked about with food and exercise are also doing, which I think sometimes people forget.
[00:38:26] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, and also, and also fasting, so the opposite- Yes ... of food intake, right? So- Yep
[00:38:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: um, those are the three primary things. Um, you know, an appropriate diet, right? So that's gonna mean a high polyphenol intake, um, polyphenols and ellagitannins. Um, and then there's, there's fasting protocols, um, that ... Intermittent fasting in general, um, has a lot of good research around it as far as triggering au- autophagy and mitophagy.
[00:38:53] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, there isn't like a specific amount of time that it takes. Um, everybody ... There's a ton of discourse about that. You could find an article to support anything. Oh,
[00:39:02] Dr. Mike T Nelson: yeah.
[00:39:03] Dr. Emily Werner: But, um, for me, I, I kind of just tell people that the human body is not meant to be constantly fed. It's, you know, it's, it's okay to feel hunger every once in a while.
[00:39:17] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's okay to do these things. Um, so I think that that's, that's a good reminder of, like, the way that it helps, um, certain processes take place. Um, and then like you said, exercise. Um, exercise also induces these types of processes because you're stressing the body, and that's a good thing to a point, but for the most part, um, majority of people are not overstressing their body from exercise, so.
[00:39:44] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, I think, and I could be wrong in this, that the longest time I found autophagy was actually measured from an acute intervention was they had a, I think it was the sleep low protocol where they brought people into the lab and they did these horrendously horrible glycolytic sprints, uh, you know, Wingate-
[00:40:05] Dr. Mike T Nelson: type stuff on bikes and prolonged exercise. They gave them a little bit of protein, tell them to go to bed, and they get them up the next day and they literally almost repeated the same heavy glycolytic work again, but they've stripped out a lot of the glycogen from the muscle. Yeah. And I think it was, like, 36 or 48 hours they saw some of the markers still elevated, which-
[00:40:28] Dr. Emily Werner: Okay
[00:40:28] Dr. Mike T Nelson: again, I would not recommend people go out and do this protocol because it's incredibly brutal. Like, the next session feels just absolutely horrifically bad. HRV will tank. Yeah. But from a mechanistic standpoint, it's kind of interesting 'cause you're talking about stressors, that doing those types of things in addition to exercise when you're doing it on depleted nutrients is a greater stressor, and we do see a little bit more, at least from a mechanistic response on that on a cellular level.
[00:40:58] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, absolutely. And y- you make a great point about, about protocols and, and l- let's call it RPE, rated perceived exertion, right? Like- When people ask me these things, I, I mean, like last year when a three-day fast was, like, all the rage-
[00:41:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yes. ...
[00:41:14] Dr. Emily Werner: I had, I cannot tell you how many coworkers I had who decided to three-day fast.
[00:41:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh. And they're like, they're like, "Emily, I'm gonna do it. Like, it's gonna be so good for me." And I'm like, "Is it?"
[00:41:24] Dr. Emily Werner: Eh. "Is it?
[00:41:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Okay. Cool. You know, like, live your life." Um, but to me, it, it's always going to come back to what's the point? What's the purpose? What is your reason behind doing it? Now, for these coworkers that I had that felt like they wanted to do a three-day fast, they felt like they needed to hit a reset button.
[00:41:43] Dr. Emily Werner: They're like, "I've been feeling sluggish. I feel like I can't do... I, I just, I'm, I'm not doing well moderating myself at this time, so I need that on and off switch." And I'm like, "Great. Go for it. I'm, wish you the absolute best of luck, and I hope you feel great afterwards," and they typically do. Um, and then I say the same to people who sometimes do just a 24-hour fast.
[00:42:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: They're like, "No, I just need a little reset," and I'm like, "That's, that's great for you." If that's, if that's how you feel like you need to live your life to get better, fine. If you start finding yourself in this cycle of, like, constantly feeling like you need to do these resets, like, let's have a conversation about how you're living your life that's getting you to the point of needing these resets.
[00:42:25] Dr. Emily Werner: But otherwise, if people can live a life of, of moderation and appropriate intake and, and just trying to pay attention to their health, they don't need to do these types of things.
[00:42:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I always think of the detox, like I always ask, I'm like, all right, y- yes, I, I, I agree that unfortunately we live in not the cleanest environment.
[00:42:48] Dr. Emily Werner: Are there pollutions? Yes. You can point to a lot of literature on that. But drinking some magical green juice usually promoted by a supplement company, I'm like, what, what are you detoxing from? Like, what is the thing you're trying to get rid of? And these are not medically supervised or anything. It's-
[00:43:05] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Exactly
[00:43:05] Dr. Emily Werner: it's a thing that here's the, the problem. Ooh, and here's our thing that solves the problem neatly, and it's always the single factor thing. And as you know, it's just rarely is anything that simple and, and straightforward in physiology. Yeah. It's just messy.
[00:43:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
[00:43:27] Dr. Emily Werner: Is there any performance data on Miralithin A?
[00:43:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: 'Cause that was one of the things when I was looking at, I know we discussed this at ISSM too, is that, 'cause my original thinking, and you helped change my thought process on this, was, okay, so we have, you know, bigger, better, badder mitochondria. This should then show up in performance. But again, I think I probably convinced myself of a little bit of a, my own simple story there.
[00:43:54] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. I, so short answer, yes, there are, um, performance studies. Um, three primary ones have been published at this time, at least in, in good reputable journals. Um, only one of which was, um, really related to Timeline, so as far as industry sponsored. But it wasn't even... Timeline will provide product. They typically- Sure
[00:44:16] Dr. Mike T Nelson: are not involved in, in protocols and actual execution of the study. Um, what has been seen across those three studies is- It's been a bit of variation. All three were completely different protocols in completely different populations. But I will say all three included what we could agree are at least above the weekend warrior type recreation athlete and all the way up to elite.
[00:44:43] Dr. Emily Werner: So this is n- like, the studies that currently exist are not, uh, at least the, the performance studies, those three were all done in people who have, who have trained at different levels. Um, some interesting information on cardiovascular improvements, um, from a performance standpoint. Little bit of changes in, like, VO2 max.
[00:45:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, some interesting stuff in strength. But nothing really that, like, all of a sudden jumps out and you're like, "Oh my God, this is, you know, the most amazing thing in the wor-" Like, it's not a- It's the
[00:45:17] Dr. Emily Werner: next creatine .
[00:45:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I, I mean, even, even creatine when it just started was- Yeah ... not, you know, you weren't seeing these types of...
[00:45:25] Dr. Emily Werner: You weren't seeing huge jumps in any sort of results. Um, so for me, the reasons I think that there wasn't anything outlandish that came out, which was actually a good thing because then you call into question, like, protocols, and it's not, it's not a drug. It's not like having these immediate acute effects.
[00:45:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um,
[00:45:47] Dr. Emily Werner: to me- You know, HMB free acid studies that I'm like, "Nobody thinks HMB free acid is equivalent to steroids, come on."
[00:45:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right. Right. Exactly. So where, where I think the... Issue's a strong word. Where I think the, like, kind of continued questions lie are, one, I think the longest length of, of any of the three studies was only eight weeks, so I'd like to see something happen further out than that.
[00:46:11] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, and, and do another set of the same kind of testing protocols that they did. Um, and then two, there is s- there's so much research in urothelial outside of sport performance, but that's related to just, like, general health. So specifically the immune data that are coming out, um, I find really fascinating.
[00:46:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, looking a little bit more into brain and just kind of like cellular turnover and, and then translating all of that into RPE. There were some interesting results in the paper that Louise Burke and her group did at the Australian Institute of Sport. Because for me as a practitioner, that matters. You know, ha- Oh, for
[00:46:52] Dr. Emily Werner: sure
[00:46:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: seeing a significant reduction in the perceived exertion during an exercise, and we're talking about this being in elite athletes, I fi- I think that that's huge. I, I, you know, if, if we can get the athletes to work harder, train harder, they are going to subsequently be better at their sport. You just might not see it in the acute design of a research study.
[00:47:15] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, so I'd love to see more studies including that down the line. And then the last thing I think to keep in mind with these types of studies is, like I mentioned, the athlete population. So you're talking about a group of people who are already probably operating at, like, not a... I mean, some could be a mitochondrial ceiling.
[00:47:35] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm. They could already be so efficient at their mitophagy processes that y- supplementing with urolithin A is only gonna increase them from, like, here to here. Whereas if you start with somebody who's more down here, you could bring them up to here, and that's where you'd see results. And that's why in the non-athlete studies, um, there, uh, there have been more robust kind of outcome measures that we've seen as far as muscular endurance and performance and those kinds of things.
[00:48:02] Dr. Emily Werner: So yeah, it's one of those, like, I, I think the real benefits of Mitopure lie in the longer term, um, foundational health in the same way that I see creatine falls into that category, um, than it does in, like, oh, can you improve my bench press in four weeks? Like, probably not.
[00:48:27] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Do you think there's any use to these mitochondrial testing things that are popping up everywhere now?
[00:48:35] Dr. Emily Werner: I know there's a couple different companies, and, you know, I've had one of the other researchers on here for one of the companies. I don't have any affiliation with them. I, I think I might have a discount code, but I didn't make a dime off of any of it anyway. Um, 'cause I so bad, I, I want them to work out, but everyone seems to have their own little twist on it, and it seems a little bit convoluted, and they seem legit, but on the flip side, I can't...
[00:49:01] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Other than for possibly genetic screening things, I, I can't point to someone I know working with high-level athletes that are like, "Oh, man, we use XYZ test and it's amazing. It's changed how we do our training and everything." Like, I don't... Maybe that exists. I, I just don't, I don't know of anyone doing that yet, and a lot of people I have access to, it's just not a, a money limitation or a time or they didn't think of it issue.
[00:49:27] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. A- and ti- I know Timeline, the researchers, um, at the, at the research institute in Switzerland have looked into these types of mitochondrial tests that are coming on the market that are just, you know, finger prick- Mm-hmm ... and what can you tell from it and, um, we've looked into it because obviously if there was something that we're doing what it says to be doing and doing it in the right way, like, that, that could be a huge research tool for sure.
[00:49:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:49:53] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, as, as a, there has not been any relationship formed, I'll tell you that. So yeah, I think, I think like you said, there's more and more companies coming on, onto the market that say that they can do something that no one else does. Um, I, I'm sure at some point something will be invented that can do what it says it does, and then maybe it'll make its way into s- the sport world, and somebody will think it's the next best thing.
[00:50:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: But at the end of the day, is it gonna change all of a sudden how training is done, how nutrition is handled? Mm. No, I'm not gonna bet that. I don't, I don't think so. To me, it's always gonna come back to foundational
[00:50:31] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah, and even just the looking all the way from mitochondrial function, however you wanna decide to measure that in research, doing a biopsy and doing an actual metabolic cart test.
[00:50:42] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I think Sandro Milan was the first one who just published that type of study set up a few weeks ago, and I think that's the first time that had ever been published in the same actual study.
[00:50:53] Dr. Emily Werner: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You know, trying to link all the way from mitochondria all the way to you- Actual human ... as a human organism, like what actually changes.
[00:51:01] Dr. Emily Werner: So even something- Yeah ... like that that, you know, seems to be relatively foundational, we're m- we're still very new. And then I talk to friends who are more mitochondrial researchers, and I get more confused because they're like, "Oh, the mitochondria and everything is just way overdesigned." Like, you're never really...
[00:51:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's never a rate limiter during exercise. This might be me putting words in their mouth. But yet we kn- they also all agree that it's super important, though. You know? Yeah. So it's like we know it's important, we know it makes a difference, we know that it goes bad in detraining. We know it's better when you train and use supplements and other things like that, but it's, there just seems to be back to that massive gray area in the middle where people are like, "Yeah, I, I don't know."
[00:51:47] Dr. Emily Werner: It
[00:51:47] Dr. Mike T Nelson: be- yeah, and like I, I think that that's because if you go, if you just go back to basic physiology, like these cells have thousands of mitochondria.
[00:51:57] Dr. Emily Werner: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:58] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And we, like I said, we have this evolutionary process for the health of the mitochondria. So it's like we were already designed to be taking care of our mitochondria.
[00:52:08] Dr. Emily Werner: And yes, there are clearly things that we know are a detriment to our mitochondrial health outside of like disease and genetic disorders, and there are things that we know are going to help it. But do the, is that range of what actually makes a difference in a person as far as what s- what will translate to their better performance, like that could look completely different across every person.
[00:52:33] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And that's why I, I think more and more research is gonna get into this area is because it's, it's a little bit untapped. I think nowadays, like we said, money drives research. Um, so I, I do see more and more that will come out, and I think... I just hope that practitioners still take it back to just basic physiology.
[00:52:53] Dr. Emily Werner: Does it fit with the theory of what we know to be physiologically true? And then let's go from there.
[00:52:59] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I mean, like we talked about with high-level athletes and them getting towards the end of their career, maybe it's just- Maybe it has a benefit, but it's increasing that sort of physiologic headroom at the top.
[00:53:10] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. And, you know, when you're younger, you're probably not running into a capacity issue, but, you know, I started thinking about this, I'll be 52 in a couple weeks, that, holy crap, maybe now as I get older, that's super important, because we know that aerobic fitness definitely does go down. You know, I think about when my grandma was 101, we would still try to, you know, take her for walks, and she would, you know, get out in her little walker as best she could for the longest time.
[00:53:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: But you could set her watch by literally the time that she could go was about 20 to 30 seconds. You know, pretty... You know, you could argue about is it aerobic, anaerobic, but she, was all she was really left with was, like, more on the anaerobic side. Mm-hmm. And once that was done, like, she was, like, just physically done.
[00:53:58] Dr. Emily Werner: So I, that always sticks in my head of, like, well, maybe just try to keep it as high as we can for as long as we can.
[00:54:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Well, and that's, that's where Timeline has seen some of the more robust answers- Yes ... of these research question is in the older population, because it's, it's folks that are already at a mitochondrial deficit in some way, outside of a genetic disorder, of course.
[00:54:21] Dr. Emily Werner: Yep. Those are the ones who see the benefit from it, because it can trigger the process in a way that no other part of their lifestyle typically can. So that's, that's where I, I think the most benefit for Mitopure comes in right now, um, on top of, like I said, just that foundational piece of, of generalized health.
[00:54:42] Dr. Mike T Nelson: 'Cause, like, I supplement my athletes with it. Um, it's, they're in high, high, high stress environment. They are over training in a lot of ways a lot of the time. Um, so that's why I think Mitopure makes sense in that population, because I'm trying to keep them healthy, trying to keep their immune systems healthy, which I can confirm.
[00:55:03] Dr. Emily Werner: Like, I've had guys who just haven't, didn't get sick all season, you know? Which there's a million factors as to why, but-
[00:55:09] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Sure ...
[00:55:09] Dr. Emily Werner: I think that's a contributor. Um, and then other guys who, you know, might be post-injury or post-surgery or something like that that need, you know, a little bit of extra help. And yeah, I have, like, it goes back to the beginning of our conversation.
[00:55:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I have the resources to be able to, um, spend on this kind of stuff, and I get the buy-in from the players, so it, it, it makes sense.
[00:55:31] Dr. Emily Werner: And what is a common, uh, dose typically of it?
[00:55:35] Dr. Mike T Nelson: All of the research is in 500, uh, milligrams or 1,000 milligrams, so up to a gram. I use a gram 'cause my guys are huge- Yeah ... giant humans.
[00:55:45] Dr. Emily Werner: Um- Larger mammals.
[00:55:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Larger
[00:55:46] Dr. Emily Werner: mammals.
[00:55:48] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I could probably even go higher than that, um, just given that the research that exists and especially the immune data was all done in, in one gram dosages, um, in general population. So but I, I think a gram is probably plenty.
[00:56:01] Dr. Emily Werner: Is that divided doses, or does it matter?
[00:56:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Doesn't matter, no.
[00:56:05] Dr. Emily Werner: Doesn't matter. With food, no food.
[00:56:07] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Doesn't matter. No, there's no bioavailability issue, um, which is the argument for why the supplement exists in the first place 'cause you can, you can produce urolithin A on your own if you eat, uh, foods, a lot of foods really high in ellagitannins. Um, but Timeline actually has a paper that shows it would take six glasses of pomegranate juice to produce the same amount as a single dose of urolithin A in a person, and that, that person would have to be a natural producer on their own and have the right gut microbiome- Mm
[00:56:34] Dr. Emily Werner: which nowadays that's not likely. A lot
[00:56:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: more rare.
[00:56:38] Dr. Emily Werner: Yep, not, not super likely that we, uh, have the right gut microbiome to actually create this postbiotic. So that's, that's another reason why I lean towards supplementation because, one, if I could get my guys to eat enough polyphenol- ... it would be awesome.
[00:56:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: That'd be amazing.
[00:56:55] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. Um, but two, then, then even getting them to do that, um, would require them to have the right gut microbiome, and I just, I don't see the likelihood of that.
[00:57:05] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And we also talked about that urolithin A as a compound can't necessarily be patented, but the process and everything around it to produce it is, and because...
[00:57:19] Dr. Emily Werner: So I'm starting to see more urolithin A products pop up on the market. Just like anything else, like you, you know something, "Oh, this is good." Then someone else tries to produce it or- Yeah ... it's a catch-22 also with supplement research. Like I understand why people do proprietary blends even though I absolutely can't stand it.
[00:57:41] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I'm not a fan of it at all.
[00:57:43] Dr. Emily Werner: Yep.
[00:57:44] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Their argument is, "Well, if we disclose all the ingredients, then someone else just rips us off," which unfortunately does happen. I don't think that's a good enough reason to only do proprietary blends. I think that's just you can hide way too much crap in there, and you have no idea what you're getting.
[00:57:59] Dr. Emily Werner: Yep.
[00:57:59] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, but it's this, always this thing of like, you know, a company like Timeline does a lot of the research, which is very expensive, time-consuming, finds the thing. And as you know, a lot of times making the thing in an efficient way is where m- a lot of the IP is. Like I worked for some consulting for, uh, Tecton ketone esters and- Just to produce the BHB, Blended Diglycerol, has taken them millions of dollars and over, like, 10 years now to try- Yep
[00:58:29] Dr. Emily Werner: to get it to the point where it's actually even marketable as a compound at a cost that's not astronomical.
[00:58:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep. Yeah, and that's one of the biggest barriers that most people tell me to taking Timeline for them is, is its cost. Mm-hmm. And, and I hear that, and I, I know for a fact Timeline's act- like, actively working on that.
[00:58:51] Dr. Emily Werner: Um, but part of it, yeah, it's the production, and it's an uncompromising, like, need for quality and for, um, just, just the utmost safety in what we're doing. And that's another reason why, like I mentioned at the beginning, you know, I'm very glad to have been brought under the Timeline umbrella because it's given me an insight to just- The production process or just the li- the logistics that goes into all of this, and really seeing how different Timeline is in terms of the research arm of the company that exists and runs, not independently of the company itself, but just, like, as its own arm, and, and the dedication to research of those folks, and then how beautifully that ties into then the business side, and how things are marketed, and how we are just so strongly rooted in, like, not making claims that we can't back up.
[00:59:48] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I think that that's so rare in the supplement space.
[00:59:51] Dr. Emily Werner: Definitely.
[00:59:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And, and just an unra- unwavering dedication to quality as well. And yeah, so at the end of the day, the price is high, and I, and I get that, and it's unfortunate, and I h- I genuinely hope it becomes more affordable someday. But at the end of the day, like, it's, it's just not there yet.
[01:00:11] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. And it's a bugger too if you're the company spending the money on all the research and everything, and doing things, you know, by the book and making sure you've got good QC and all the wonderful things and GMP, blah, blah, blah, and then you see some other competitor sell, "Oh, but trust us, it's urolithin A, bro," at, like, half the price.
[01:00:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And then if it doesn't work, then people are like, "Oh man, well, I tried urolithin A and it didn't do shit for me." It's like, well, do you actually know what was in there?
[01:00:39] Dr. Emily Werner: Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, and I know Timeline keeps track of all these new ones that pop up on Amazon all the time, and they're actively in litigation against these groups and, like, it's a, it's a constant conversation within the company.
[01:00:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And, and it's a small company too, so it's, it... Trust me, they are paying attention to everything because one thing that they told me from the start, they were like, "We care about our integrity." 'Cause once you lose that, you have no- Oh
[01:01:04] Dr. Emily Werner: yeah, you're toast ...
[01:01:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: exactly. So like, and that was what made me so comfortable working with them, and it has continued to make me comfortable and, and, and proud of the fact that I work with them because I think they're...
[01:01:15] Dr. Emily Werner: Not only is it a really unique product and, and niche and, like, like you said, the patent exists, um, to kind of protect them a little bit, I- it's the integrity of the group and, and the dedication that they all have that I, I think makes them really special.
[01:01:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, because once you've had a little bit of a peek behind the curtain, like the analogy I've used is, and I've, oh, let's see.
[01:01:39] Dr. Emily Werner: I've heard of this happening. Um, you get a certain raw from China, it doesn't meet QC. Mm-hmm. Maybe it's off by a certain percentage. If you don't have a lot- a small company who is not as concerned about your name, you're like, "Ah, we'll just roll with it because if we don't, it's gonna cost us X amount of money."
[01:02:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: In one particular case, I won't say any names, uh, the raw supplier said, well, they litigated back and forth, and they finally said, "Oh yeah, yeah, we screwed up. It wasn't to your spec," and they could get rid of it. They're like, "We don't want it back." You know, and, and, you know, to the company's credit, they didn't use it, you know?
[01:02:22] Dr. Emily Werner: But now you're sitting on a lot of money and a lot of raw to get rid of. You know, is anyone really gonna check you at the end of the day? Probably not, but it comes back to is this the right thing or the wrong thing to do? And I, I think that gets underappreciated, especially when supplement companies are fly by night, show up, and who knows what they're doing because to, to do everything by the book and to follow the way you're supposed to, it's expensive.
[01:02:55] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Like, all of that is an added amount of cost, and I think that is the right way to do it, and there are companies who definitely do that. Um, but I think a lot of consumers don't realize that that, that is an expense. It's not just the raw material that goes into the product.
[01:03:10] Dr. Emily Werner: And that's why I'm grateful to have conversations like this because it's, it's maybe one more person that can hear this and recognize all that goes into it and it's, it's not as simple as it seems.
[01:03:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And so that's why looking for a reputable product from a reputable brand is worth the money.
[01:03:26] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. Yeah, especially when it's something you're going to ingest, you know? Yeah. So that's why I always tell people, like, for God's sakes, like, do your homework, you know? Like, there's, you know... And in general, if you go with a bigger name company who has a lot to lose, you're, in general, probably gonna be much safer, you know?
[01:03:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. It's just these-
[01:03:46] Dr. Emily Werner: Yes ...
[01:03:46] Dr. Mike T Nelson: smaller companies that show up, and again, it doesn't mean that they're bad. It's just I- Yeah, I have a lot more due diligence on my part, and some of them, like at one company, I made them wait like nine months to see if they're even still around.
[01:03:59] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah.
[01:04:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You know, it's like, yeah, I did whatever I could.
[01:04:02] Dr. Emily Werner: I'm probably gonna slice that on it for like nine to 10 months just to see what did they push, what is their marketing, what are they doing, are they still around? Like, how are they... You know, w- how are they just kind of operating? 'Cause that gives you an idea of kind of what their integrity level is.
[01:04:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: 100%.
[01:04:19] Dr. Emily Werner: Yeah. Awesome. Um, well, tell us some more as we wrap up here about where people can potentially find you if you wanna be found, and tell us all about- ... uh, timeline and Urolithin A and their products.
[01:04:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You know, uh, as far as Timeline goes, it's, uh, timeline.com. I, I think their website's fantastic. Lot of like-
[01:04:36] Dr. Emily Werner: It's actually really good.
[01:04:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I like it.
[01:04:38] Dr. Emily Werner: It's really nice, right? Yeah. Yeah, it
[01:04:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: is.
[01:04:40] Dr. Emily Werner: It's really easy to navigate. Um, there's blogs up there for anybody who wants to learn a little bit more about either the product or just kind of like health topics in general. Um, I will point out to your listeners that there also is a skincare line associated with Timeline, um, because they found that Urolithin A can be absorbed through the skin, and your skin have a ton of mitochondria- Ah
[01:04:57] Dr. Mike T Nelson: that benefit from it. Um, and interestingly, the, the world of clinical research in skin is- It's crazy ... if we thought supplements were the Wild, Wild West, skin is the wildest west you can think of. Um, and so Timeline has taken that same dedication to, to quality and quality research, um, into the skincare world.
[01:05:16] Dr. Emily Werner: Uh, I love their products. Live and die by it. Been using it since we created it, and, um, I think it's fantastic. I've put my mom on it, my sister on it. So would recommend to anybody who loves... It's, don't get me wrong, expensive. Um,
[01:05:29] Dr. Mike T Nelson: but- Sure ...
[01:05:29] Dr. Emily Werner: if you love a luxury skincare that has good clinical research, and all that research is online, you can see the befores and after pictures, 10 out of 10 would recommend.
[01:05:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, uh, and then as far as me, I have a LinkedIn. Um, I have a we- Of course ... I have a website. Yeah, my LinkedIn, you can just search my name, Emily Werner. Uh, probably my credentials afterwards, PhD, RD, CSSD, IFNCP. Alphabet soup, as my- There you go ... siblings call it. Um, but, uh, then h- my Instagram is, like it's my personal one.
[01:06:00] Dr. Emily Werner: It's, it is public. People are welcome to follow me, but I'm not very good at like posting education pieces. Um, I'm much... It's, it's my personal. I'll post what cool foods I ate, what, you know, where I'm traveling to, and, and great opportunities like at ISSN. Um, but yeah, I don't, I'm not great on like spending the time to make content, um,
[01:06:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: to- Yeah
[01:06:21] Dr. Emily Werner: but-
[01:06:21] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I'd say you, you got enough things going on, so you know. A little bit. I wouldn't feel bad about that at all.
[01:06:26] Dr. Emily Werner: No, a little bit.
[01:06:28] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This was super helpful.
[01:06:32] Dr. Emily Werner: No problem. Absolutely. Happy to be here.
[01:06:34] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Thank you.
[01:06:35] Dr. Emily Werner: Mm-hmm.