Dr. Mike T Nelson interviews Jeb and Dean from Stronger U to provide practical tips for both fitness trainers and fitness enthusiasts.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And topic Mike to Nelson here of the flux diet podcast. And today coming up, I've got an awesome episode with my good buddies, Jeff Johnson and Dean mr. From stronger. You and we talk all about nutritional counseling. And what you'll realize in the conversation is that is the title and the topic, but it's not your standard. The discussion of, I guess you could say nutritional, even coaching. So you want to listen to that. I was awesome to talk to those guys. Again, both of them are coaching people online every day. So again, it's always good to get information from the people that are in the trenches doing it, and both of them are super knowledgeable too. And then today it's sponsored by the flux diet certification. Again, shocker, if you're listening to this as of today, Thursday, September 17th, and we got a couple more days to get into this round of the flex diet certification.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
It is open until this Sunday night at midnight central time. So we've only got a few days left to get into the flex diet certification. This round closes on September 20th at midnight. So you'll want to go to flux diet.com and you'll be able to enroll if you're listening to this during that open enrollment time, if you're listening to this outside of that, and you can still go to flux diet.com, you'll be able to get onto the waitlist and the daily newsletter got lots of tips and great stuff coming for you there. And you'll be the first to be notified once it opens again. So flux diet.com F L E X a D I E t.com. Check out this discussion with my good buddies, Jeb and Dean. Alright, we're listening to the flex diet cast and I'm back. We're talking to him about nutrition coaching today. Got my good buddies Jeb here, and the Dean both of them worked for stronger. You and we wanted to talk about what are some practical tips if you're a trainer listening for coaching, and then if you're not a trainer, just a fitness enthusiast, I think it's always good to talk to people who coach people all the time. You can kind of find that, Oh yeah, that was kind of a blind spot. I never thought of it that way. So we'll start with John. Just give us a little intro on your background.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yes, I have a pretty varied background. Obviously I came into fitness kind of a nondescript way. I was I went to college as a a music student was studying theater as well. Ended up obviously therefore as a bartender played music for a long time songwriter. And then I actually decided at one point my wife was like, you need to get a real job because if you coming home at four in the morning, every day. So I actually went in and became a hairdresser and worked in middleweight in New York city was kind of a celebrity hairstylist had worked with a lot of like, you know, everyone from like supermodels to actors. Did a lot of behind the scenes stuff. Magazine covers, I pretty much, at one point I had clients on every major magazine cover there was, and it was completely unsatisfying.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I got into fitness. It was like, if that weird goal thing of like, Hey, you set your goals up and then you knock them all down. And you're like, wow, that actually didn't do anything. So I, I, I was, I was getting started, get into fitness in my thirties. I was in New York ended up through like a online group. I met this guy, Sean Hyson, who was a editor at Muslim fitness, men's fitness. And we had started working out together and he just kind of taught me a lot about fitness and I got really into it. And nutrition was kind of where I gravitated towards and ended up transitioning out of hair and into slowly into personal training some, some group coaching. And then I made the transition fully to nutrition a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Awesome. Hey, one quick question. Did you ever get to do Wayne static from static X's hair? You did Jennifer Aniston?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
No, I didn't do Jen Aniston. I did Derek Jeter's wife now. I did a lot of like big models, so luckily I wouldn't even know their name, but, but like they're all covers of magazines. Did you what's the dude, he was on that show elementary. He was the, he got the Irish name. I forget it. He had colored his hair in the off season, a wrong color and came in and was like, I need it to be gray again. I was like,
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Oh yeah, it's on Hyson is old school writer from back in the day. I remember reading lots of his stuff all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah. And I got into publishing because of that. So like, obviously I was right. I wrote for a lot of magazines still write for, you know, there's not many magazines left, but yeah. But I, I kinda came in that door and did some fitness tacking, which was a fun job. So if you ever saw like magazines, they had workouts in them. I was there like calling the models, like, Hey, this is what you know, a Squatch should look like. It's amazing how terrible a lot of those guys are at movement mean just awful.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yes. Did you have to use the fake plates?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
We didn't have fake plates, which is the really big issue when a guy had to front squat and he was like six, two, and couldn't even get the parallel. So I had to clean the, you know, 45 pound barbell up and try to hand it up to him and then try to get him to squat when he would just like, these guys would just go onto their toe. It was, it was amazing. I mean, these guys were like Adonises.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, but it's when you realize none of it matters,
Speaker 2 (06:23):
You know, honestly, the, all of the best all the best models I had were guys who did CrossFit, like if a guy did CrossFit, he came in, I knew that he could probably work through any movement I needed.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Cool. Mr. Dean.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Oh, this sucks. Cause I have to like follow that. I do
Speaker 1 (06:45):
In a hairdresser in Canada.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
No, like I'm not, I guess I'm, I'm over 30 now, but I dunno, I have that like typical bro, meet head ex college athlete football, and I need to stay in school longer. So I decided to become a teacher cause I, I didn't age out. So I had all this eligibility is like, ah, teaching is like coaching. I like coaching found out similar to jab. It just wasn't as satisfying. Like you think you like teaching, but really I liked coaching football. And when you teach in schools, you don't really do any of that. So you weren't teaching football. You're saying no, I was basically babysitting grade fours in gym class. Which was just, it's just awful. So very, it's a very unfulfilling, like none of them cared about lifting or nutrition or sports, so it's and now they have non-competitive. So like, if you don't want to compete, you kind of go on the recreational side and that's pretty much everyone.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
So it's, it's just, anyways, it wasn't hard. It was enough for me, but long story short, I quit that became a trainer similar to Jeb. I kind of just kind of felt, I was always in love with lifting and being a meathead. So it was an easy transition because training was just an extension of my teaching slash coaching. So I just took that approach of the stuff I learned as a teacher and just kind of applied it as a trainer and then kind of within two years, opened up my own studio. And then within two years of that closed my studio and I've kind of been online nutrition since. And the closing of the studio was more, my business partner moved to Australia and I was doing so well online that it logistically and work-life balance wise made total sense to just, I don't do the nutrition thing. And again, nutrition and fitness are kind of the same in terms of how I viewed them in terms of importance. It's just, I find you can get a lot more leeway and a lot more leverage with people with nutrition as opposed to training. And that's just the way I found to be a better effective coach for the stuff I wanted. I got so much more out of the nutrition side personally. And so yeah, I just kind of doubled down and now we're here.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, that was my first question. I'll start with job. Is, do you only talk about nutrition or do you run into issues where there's someone else doing their exercise or how do you kind of, I guess sort of balance that cause like me personally, I very much just like only doing
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Exercise or only doing nutrition because I tend to find the other thing is the limiter, but I also know that you have clientele that are coming in with different expectations and the people I work with too.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah. So we don't have a ton of prequalification. So Dean and I both are working with a huge swath of, of gen pop people generally. I mean, I do have, I have a couple of like elite athletes, like, like world title, people that are, you know, like strong man and strength sports, but that's rare. Like most of my, and Dean's clients are going to be like you know, a, a middle aged woman from the Midwest who you know, does Peloton a couple of times a week. So for me, a big thing is my own ethical kind of constraints are that like, I look at things very holistically. So even if I'm not programming their training, I'm always kind of harping on like, listen you know, I'm here doing your nutrition, but it that's one piece of the puzzle. And if we don't align these other things up, we're not gonna, you know, you know, like something like you talk about Mike a lot, you know, it's like robustness and resilience.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Like my goal is to create a more resilient human, right. So I can do that through getting them into better nutrition. But if they're not working these other things, which are, you know, behavioral, psychology, psychological training, like there there's, there's going to be a lot of gaps. So, you know, if someone does Peloton, it's like, cool, all right. So you're doing Peloton, great. Do that three times a week. Hey, let you know, you got that Peloton app. Let's throw in some of those upper body workout they have. And I don't really care if it's five pounds. Cause it's someone who probably, they're not gonna go to the gym and, and bench press, they're not being mentioned, you know, three 45%. So even just getting them doing something, but creating that holistic environment, I think is something I constantly harp on. Whether I'm the one dictating that path or not.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Cool. What about for you Dean? Yeah, I'll kind of second. All of that. I think. So we have mutual friends and Ben hose and he always talks about getting people triple on the tree with them. I like, I kinda, I coined this myself, but I like to give people a stick and make them triple on it. And so essentially a trip on your own stick that doesn't sound quite like it's like riding a bike and I'm literally going to throw the stick at, at their spokes and like they're going to trip on it. Well, it's one of those things where like, especially with a lot of the research we've done is like, exercise is good. It's kind of what it comes down to. I think we talked about that on iHeartRadio, try and transition into like lifting heavy and being a body builder and step gen pop it.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Like literally doesn't matter they could do, like Jeff said, they're a string it's on the Peloton because more extra size or more frequency is going to be better. And it's like, what metric are they using? Let's just increase that. And then I mostly untrained to just starting very low when what they going to do, ends up being the biggest thing. So we talk about nutrition and I always have the pillars of like, we have a Mount, we have exercise and then we have steps or moving outside of exercise. And the big thing with the food stuff that ends up being the easy part, especially when they're coming to a nutrition company to essentially go on a diet, they think they're gonna eat less. So we give it to them on a silver platter. What I try to do is emphasize really early on that these things might be important and I'll just bring them up in a sense, like, especially if they're already doing something, that's my end.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
And I'll just tell them to increase that or increase their wattage on a Peloton. And then if I can get them and kind of here's the stick is, do you track steps? You probably should track steps here in six months. The people that I have that are most successful, long-term two years down the road track steps and they get more over that time. And so they start to think, okay, that's not that hard to do. And so I like to kind of I don't wanna say lot. I have a lot of long-term clients, but I try to use examples of stuff, talking to them, not like I'm telling them to do it, but these things are helpful. And then they almost start to gravitate towards that on their own. Hey, what kind of tracker should I get? Hey, do you think Peloton is enough? And then once we have that relationship, then it's just a matter of fine tuning it. And I think the biggest problem that people have with exercises, they think there is a perfect way to do something. And realistically, especially with the people we deal with, they just need something, something that they like and enjoy and are going to do. And once you have that, you have a starting point at least.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
And do you try to get tricky with them and send them stuff like, Oh, I saw you have a new tracker. How many steps did you get? Or I've done that to clients. Like I've noticed online, they bought a new garment. So I'll email them like, Hey, how many steps do you know, stuff that I have? I know I'm going to talk with them about, but I kind of want to see where they're at initially and try to get them to ask me about it.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
I like to think of myself the villain. So this is the stick to it's like here, like like my job is to kind of tell you to do something more. And so like I'm lately, like you're going to hate it. You're going to get sick of me telling you to get more steps. I don't care if you get 4,000, I'm probably going to tell you to get five and that's just going to kind of how it's going to be. And they just kind of expect that I'm going to poke at that. And then they'll just try it. That's how I do it. It tends to work. I usually make myself the villain in a nice way. Cause I do video reviews when I go over stuff. So they hear me say it like that. And then it tends to work out because no one's going to try to do, like, especially when it's like steps, people know when they're low, they already know they're inactive.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
When they see it visually with 2000, they're like, well, what should I get? And I'm like, yeah, like normal is like 6,000 and I could just throw it any number that's more than 2000 the book. Oh. And then the, the thing. So yeah. And like, I don't, you know, more about the research of it, but I think a lot of the stuff was like 6,000 is a good starting point, especially in your flex diet. That's kind of where I started do that. And I look into research and it's like that, and then more is just better. And you can't really get too much. Cause I have my stepfather in law gets 30,000 steps a day, but he was tired of work. So he's at the Lake. And so like that's crazy. He just pieces and goes for walks and most of the lawn twice a day and just say, , just this year. But like even he's fine. He's fine. Like he can't, you can't do, you're not going to be in in the hospital. Over-Training steps generally. So it's kind of like more, is always better. I kind of use that and then people kind of end up in their upper echelon at some point down the road.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah. I think the main constraint always comes with is time. Yeah. Because it's the biggest time suck because it just takes a long time to do.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
And that's the funny thing with exercise, we're talking about steps, but I kind of pair the two. Like even though I separate them and I've almost found the exercise, it doesn't matter. As long as they're doing it, they always get, especially with that loss clients, they always get more results with the step part because it's usually the part with the most leverage because you work out where it takes us years to see progress in certain things. Like it took me a whole year to put on like eight pounds, all muscle. And like, I didn't really get that much stronger. And as a lot of work, that's a lot of time for very little, I guess, results where steps is like immediate, it's like 2000 and 4,000 double what 2000 is. That's like my bench increasing two times, which would never happen in my lifetime. So it's just a higher leverage point. I find.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah. I find that too. And I've even found some, we'll say more neurotic lions that they're already relatively fit, but they're at 15,000 steps a day. And if they get 14,000 steps a day, they lose their . And so some of those people, and again, these are the absolute outliers of the outliers. I'm like, can you regulate yourself with like 12,000 steps a day? Cause, cause they've like taken the concept and gone so far to the other, other extreme, but you know, most of the time you're constantly pushing people up, not bringing them down
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Well, but I think that's a big conversation that we have within the nutrition sphere as well is, is, you know, we talk a lot about you know, mostly what we do is tracking macros, we're tracking weight. And I think we in, in what is relatively a younger field, I think this online nutrition, coaching Mac macro coaching in particular is that people, most people haven't really taken much time to examine the downsides. And what you're describing right there is, is what something starts off as an internal regulator of like, Hey, I'm going to use this external number to start to internal internally regulate myself. All of a sudden it shifts into a completely external thing. And now the focus becomes these, these metrics rather than the purpose behind them, which was to start to, you know, regulate our, our, our, our behaviors in our, in our environment. So that's a big, you know, concern. It's a big concern of mine. It's something that I'm constantly working on because of the people we work with.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
Well, that's where it's like, that's why I don't like to use specific numbers or specific weights and stuff. I like to kind of come. Like, I feel like if I, if I'm saying the right things enough, like, and I'm like, yeah, Moore's kind of better. Right? Or like increasing your exercise frequency or intensity or increasing your watch even a little bit, talk about it in generalities, because then they're like, okay, this is a good thing. I should do more as opposed to, I need to do 1000 hundred and 15 steps more because that's 1,114 steps less than last time or whatever. You know what I mean? Like to get neurotic, all that stuff for like, you know what, I didn't get that. It was 200 Watts thing in the Peloton and I got 202 last time and I'm . It's like, no, like it's good.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Like, and so it's like, I like to talk about it in nonspecific, even though they know, I know stuff about lifting, like I do video reviews I'm big. Like they know I'm in fitness and have a fitness podcast and all this stuff. And they want like this like really specific answer. And I don't do that for a reason cause it doesn't work like, and Gemini and I don't really take on programming clients anymore in terms of weight loss or sorry, in terms of fitness and lifting and all that POS partially because that coaching element doesn't have as much leverage as this nutrition movement, general fitness stuff that we do at strong, you has a way better leverage. And the people that we work with that do exercise and you, you have a, you have a training business, like lifters are crazy. And like people
Speaker 2 (18:43):
You get into DeLorean tend to be crazy too crazy,
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Even though it's helpful. And if they like it, I'll push it. But I'm also not going to the stick. I'm putting it into their bicycle tire, isn't powerlifting or CrossFit or getting an erotic exercise and competitive. I would rather do it kind of a way in which you have said, which is talk about the stuff that works without getting erotic.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah. I have a little rule that the more competitive someone is, the more likely they're crazy. And if you go into the aesthetic side of that, you know, physique competitors, whether it's male or female, like the first thing someone will ask me if I do fuzzy coach and I'm like, yeah, I've done a few people and I'll tell them flat out like to their face, but I don't work with anyone. Who's just crazy. And if they're crazy, they kind of look really scared and run away. And if they're kind of, sort of saying like, you'll still talk to him, but the reality is that's true because now you're trying to get to a high level, which is going to take, you know, some discipline and you got to do things specifically, but now you're in a sport where you're graded on how you look on top of it. Now you're dealing with a subpopulation who tend to gravitate into those areas. You're, you're going to get some people who are crazy that, I mean,
Speaker 3 (19:56):
And you can bias that as a coach, which is like, where it becomes dangerous. It's like, if you start talking about someone, Oh, you could've got one more rep or, Hey, I saw your workout. You could have done this better. The top people do this. You can almost negatively impact their mindset to make them crazy because they're experts and they have this trust in you. You really have a lot of impact on that part of the equation. So I feel like I just don't want to be dangerous. And I know the stuff that works without kind of, I guess, building crazy. I don't like someone's gonna listen to and be like, ah, we're not crazy. It's like, no, you're not crazy, but it's not also helpful for Betty who has two kids in her van and plays soccer, Dixon, soccer practice. It's not helpful to be there.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah. The other thing is, is that Dean and I both can say that people like that are crazy because we are both like that. And we are both crazy like that as a crazy person, myself. I like the messaging threads that Dean and I look like, we'll start talking about something and he gets so into the weeds about stuff that doesn't matter at all, but that's just where we're going to go. And so we can look at me and be like, listen, you don't want this. Like, you don't want it. I like, we, we have a job that we can actually leverage that stuff. Like you have a real job, you have kids, you have things don't, don't, don't come down this road.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Like I'm trying to backtrack at this point. Yeah. Hopefully that helps you. But like I like and I don't think that most, I don't wanna say most coaches, but I think a lot of us get into it because we like this and we want to push it on people. But once you kind of get past that stage and have some self reflection on your journey, you realize that most people aren't like you and that's okay. And that's probably the people you're dealing with because in order to deal with the people that are like us, you have to be at the top of your game or you have to be good at marketing or whatever. You have to get an in somewhere. Like we don't work with the best of the best. And like we could, but like generally that's not the reality. It's like the trainer who goes in and wants to coach the in Baltimore, Ravens, like you're never going to get that job. And if you do, you're going to be the top of the top of the top. And you've been that person your whole life. And so you kind of have to have this understanding of we work with normal people. And so don't be me.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
And it's more satisfying to be honest. I mean, there are some cool things like working with some top level athletes in that you get to tell them what to do. It's not a, it's not a discussion like for, for our gen pop people. It's like, Hey, like what are you like, how can I help you to do what you, that's going to make you better with the top athlete? I'm like, they're like, Hey, can I have a cheat meal tonight? What's your weight? Nope. You don't get that. You know, you're eating, sugar-free jello. Right?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
You want this or not. And I don't think like, like I said, when you're talking about general fat loss, especially I think the big thing and like, I don't know what you didn't really ask this, but it's like, I'm trying to get people to look at things outside of the confines of the program, which is a lot of times people are starting out at 12 weeks. Like I, I straight up say like, and I speak in a way where like, Hey, like six months down the road this is what this kind of person looks like our 12 months. Now. I want them to look at it. Long-Term cause fat loss. If you try to get your goals at 12 weeks again, you're breeding crazy. Like, is it like the person who gets that is the athlete that Jen has. Who's going to strictly follow everything.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Who's single, who's in college. There's nothing else to do. But this has a job where they can kind of pay to do stuff. Like they're not most people aren't that person. And so most people are going to see that 12 group results where they, where they get shredded in 12 weeks. And we've had clients that do. But we also know that we know it when we see it, it's like, it's almost, you can see it in 10 seconds. Like, Oh, this guy's going to do well. Like he nailed everything. Like he got shredded in 12 weeks. You, you instantly know within the first week. And most people aren't that. And that's not a bad thing. That's actually a good thing because we have the ability to change their lives without them, I guess, being crazy, which is where a lot of things end up going when, when they don't have that help.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah. And I think people forget that the average person, and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense at all, their goal is literally, okay, how can I eat and look good and do the things I want to do and have my health be in check. It's not do I need to my broccoli. Right? I mean, that's not
Speaker 3 (23:49):
No radio. When he was like the top search things was like, how do I get jacked without lifting the top two terms? Cause like that in like the top Google terms, that means that that's what most people want. They want it like, look jet. They don't want to do the work. Like that's the reality. Like that's, that's, that's the pipe dream. Hmm.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
And, and that's that's, you know, that, that talks to speaks to another issue that we face is that people have very unrealistic goals when they come in, because they're like, Hey, I don't, you know, this is what I want. It's like, Oh, you know what? This entails. Right. I know you saw some transformation pics on my Instagram, but these people did all the stuff that nobody wants to do. And that's just, you know, that's the reality. And there's also, you know, let's just throw in, there's a lot of genetics involved. Like some people are just gonna, you know, do it. Yeah. Yeah. If you follow a bodybuilder, I mean, it's, you know, that's how it worked. You know, I get, cause I, I really liked following bodybuilders and you know, you see a guy who's, you know, five foot, six and two 70. I'm like, man, how can I get like that? You know, like that guy's arms are great. Why don't my arms look like that?
Speaker 1 (24:57):
It looked like my legs
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Flex Lewis. And I'm like, man, if I could just get like shoulders like that, come on.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah. And then you see pictures of Lee priest when he was 18, before he did any drugs. And you're like, I could probably do all the gear in my life and train forever. And I went and looked like him when I'm 18, there's just no way, you know,
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Michael Hearn is 16. He's like monster, like, yeah. So you're right. It's just like, there's so many. Co-Factors like, yeah, it goes back to those people who were like, I'm going to do yoga because I want that long lean muscle. And it's like, okay,
Speaker 3 (25:32):
That's the conversation that we have to have without saying. So, because especially like, are you Betty, whatever. But Betty signs up strong use, you can work with Jeb and I or whatever. And like, we're going to straight up say like, you want to look like that. Like flex Lewis looked like this, blah, blah, blah. I can go through this whole story about how that's not realistic. Then that's where the stick helps. And like talking about goals in six, like in longevity and how this is a long-term thing. And I like the line expectations right at the beginning without having the talk about that, they're crazy or sorry that their expectations are, are way too high. And so it's a process that everyone's kind of different, but that's the same thing I find is that people's expectations of what 12 weeks looks like is not what 12 weeks looks like.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
And that's probably the hardest thing to do. And that's probably that is on the coaching aspect on how you do stuff. But again, I it's, it's gotten easier over time, especially with video reviews and in calling and stuff as opposed to just written email and that's kind of, that's, that's the biggest barrier I find, especially when someone is coming, no matter what, pick any nutrition, even someone coming to you, they have an expectation on what this thing is. And it's really, you have to line up expectations on what's going to happen. Otherwise it's not, it's not going to work like unless they're just freak athletes.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah. And I, I even struggled with that in terms of, I have a few kind of after pictures, but I so far to date, I haven't put up before and after pictures, I'm not saying I never will. I cause I'm very cautious of what is the expectation I'm putting out with people coming in. And the reality is what I saw a lot more certifications and have group coaching and everything else if I did that. Sure. But I have a bunch of photos I could use. Yeah. Am I at the point where I want to do that yet? I know I, because I, I have a bad feeling of the expectation of what that's going to get coming in. And it's, again, it's not a bad thing. I'm not saying people do that are horrible. But like you guys were saying, you, you have to be cognizant of the expectation that's that's coming in and what you're working with.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I think whenever I post a transformation, which I do a lot less now than I did before, I think I was I think earlier on in my nutrition coaching, I probably overvalued my my coaching and undervalued the what the client was really doing because I've now learned, well, I've now learned that my biggest transformation photos are not me being a good coach. It's just the people that just did it. Like it's like, those are not my coaching. My coaching successes are the people who've lost 10 or 20 pounds and kept it off for a couple of years. You know, that really is. But, but I, you know, I would post more of those, but yeah, now it's like one of the big things I post is like, listen, these are not normal results. This dude is a machine. Like literally all he needed was a little bit of oversight to understand that like these things are what work and these, these, you know, real simple. And they're usually like, they're all like data driven people, especially the guys, like one of my guys is a pharmacist. One of them works. You know, they work like tack. Like their guys are super like, Oh, you just giving me these numbers and that's all I need to do. Oh, this is easy. They make their own spreadsheets and charts charts. So, you know, that's the, that's, it's all I think with a caveat, it makes it a little bit more ethical. But yeah, that's a constant, that's a, that's always a dilemma with me.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Well, it sucks because of the way a lot of this stuff works. Right. Especially because we have a system and we have, we have an app that's out and like they're in there, they're putting data in. So it's like, whatever way you coach, they're still putting that weight and they're still counting macros. So they're still getting that data in the ones who kind of freak out about it. It's kind of, you're going to get that problem because they have to go through that. And once you kind of find a way to sidestep it. And so a lot of the times it's like all straight up, say like, I look like someone will be worried about the fact that they, the gain half a pound this week, but they lost two pounds. Anyways. There'll be like a gain like two pounds of the day. And I'm like this face right here.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Like, and I'll be on video. I'm like, I'm not worried because I've seen this enough times where like, that is how it happens. And I just have those realistic expectation talks almost because I'm talking at the screen, I'm not talking with them. I just kind of tell them in my head, this is how I objectively think about it as a coach. And there's a reason why I'm not worried because it's one day or one week I'm looking at months. And again, I'm kind of preaching that long-term thing so that they don't freak out about it. A lot of people still freak out about it and they'll have those conversations, but it, you also have to realize that people are going to feel that way anyways. And I'll try to empathize. I'm like, listen, I sound like a Dick, but I still empathize with you.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Like I understand when you see that you're putting the data in and you're like, it's not moving. And you have to literally put that number in five days a week. Like I get it. That being said, that's the hard part, the hard part isn't counting the macros or getting the exercise for you or counting your steps for you. It ends up the hard work is like mentally getting over the fact that you're gonna be frustrated every time you see the scale and I move. So that's your, that's the leverage point in which you pull in that case. And so, I don't know. I find like that tends to work, but that is also a huge problem, especially with data-driven I guess, coaching, which is kind of what we're talking about. A lot of us do.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah. And I, I sent this email to a client literally last night of very similar thing, you know, the scale and up and that whole discussion and all the emotion that surrounds it. And I wrote back that I, I understand this I've, we've worked with many people like this before, or I said it, but just keep in mind that the scale, the data doesn't have any emotion, the scale doesn't get mad at you. The scale doesn't care. And I a hundred percent understand this, a female client that this sounds exactly like a data-driven engineering nerd, which is me. I get it. I totally understand that this is going to be your visceral response to this message. However, it's still true, you know? And it, it, cause I'm trying to get them to cognitively divorce, a little bit of their feelings from data because they're just mashed up altogether and just from media and from everything else that they've ever been taught, it's like, can you, cause I want them long-term to have an objective way of looking at it. I was saying, Oh yeah. Wow. You know, I am off track a little bit, but I know how to get back on track and I'll be okay. And Oh, I didn't turn into a worthless person overnight
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Or being on track doesn't necessarily mean weight loss in an acute setting. And that's kind of the one thing is like hard work is like, when you're frustrated, it's like, literally do the same I told you to do last week when things were good. It's like, get your steps in, get your exercise and count your macros. It's like, it doesn't matter. You may gain weight and that's still to be my answer and you're going to hate me for it. That's my job to tell you that's the answer. And so I almost offload, I basically tell them, I don't care about their feelings while also telling them that like, this is the reason why, but doing it in a nice way or way, they're like, man, this guy's a Dick, but I don't get there. Cause I just kind of, I talked to third person or talked to like this person that exists. That's not them, even though I'm talking about them. So it tends the world.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
You know, I think you, you come, we come back to that, that process of talking, especially to women about, you know, issues with scale or body image and those things and, and you know, our mutual friend, Lisa Lewis, one of the things that I love that she always says is, is this a feeling or is this a fact? Yes. And when we look at this and she, you know, you look at the scale and you're like, I feel like because that's generally these emotive people that have a lot of trouble with dealing with these, the data not lining up with their expectations is they often leave with that. I feel it's like, okay, well, is this a feeling? Or it's a fact because your feelings are valid and they emotions are, and they're going to be things that are there. But at the end of the day, they're not factual and they're not data.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
And so we can't conflate the two. And I think if people start to be able to separate that, they start to realize that like, okay, my feelings are valid. Like me feeling like this is okay, but it doesn't change the fact of the matter that, that the scale is up. And that is due to some kind of circumstances that may be environmental. They may be behavioral. They may be you know, hormonal. They may be whatever it might be, but that is the reality of the situation. So let's look at what possibly could be leading to that.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Usually just like the long way of saying like your feelings don't matter, even though they do matter to you, if you said it like that, they'd be like, okay buddy, with tattoos, Jack dude never had any trouble.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah. Well, trust me, I've had lots of very poor conversations in the past that did not,
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I have to, right. We have to go through, I have to screw it up to, to learn it. Like, you know, you have to have taken someone's Teddy bear away on accident.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
It's going to be easier for me. Like I'm having a kid in January, like now I can use that too, but it's like the second you don't have kids, you don't understand what it's like, that kids will you. And like, so you have to find other ways to kind of get them to the same spot without it being that conversation. And that is hard. And I think that that does take reps and most people who haven't coached anyone, even outside of nutrition, that's a really hard skill to get, even in, in football coaching for me or personal training or whatever thing you're coaching in. That's, that's just the baseline skill as a coach. And it's not, it's not just solely correlated with nutrition coaching, you know what I mean? And that's a hard skill to get without life experience, period, or experience.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah. Even in Jocko, Willink, and his book talks about, if you're in a leadership position, you're trying to make decisions. Can you detach from the emotion and the situation and look at it objectively to get the best answer, you know, and what you were saying. Dean too reminds me of Travis mash talking about he's like, if he's like to him, like having a background in physiology and then number two or one might even be having empathy as a coach is like, if you have empathy, you're probably going to be a pretty good coach. Like we can teach you all the other stuff. You can learn a lot of, all the other stuff too. But I think that's something I know I kind of had to learn along the way. It's like, I, I did. But like you were saying job, like once you, you know, take someone's Teddy, bear away multiple times, not on purpose, you kind of learned that, oops that didn't work so well when you want to do
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Well
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Within that same scope. Two is we have to be aware of, of, you know what, what kind of empathy are we engaging them then Ben and I were talking and he called a teenage empathy, like feeling that, like, if you're feeling what someone else is actually feeling like you're gonna, you're not gonna last long. And that's that book, the case against empathy, I think which, which has some really great points in it. And I don't bring it up much because I get eviscerated every time I say that, maybe empathy in certain ways. Yeah. Cause I'll say empathy is not that kind of empathy is not good. And people are like, but I want to feel what the world feels like, cool, go feel it. But you're going to burn out and you're
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Not going to last.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And it's people that come to the, helping these helping fields a lot of time are those types. And when I say like, listen, a compassionate empathy where you can say like, Hey, I understand it. But like, I, I'm sorry. Like I'm not, I don't want to feel what you're feeling. I don't want to be sad because you're sad when I'm done with this, you know, this review of your check-in or whatever it is, I'm shutting that off and I'm moving it on because I have to now work for somebody else.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
I'm lifting weights after this conversation. But like also being able to explain the, I honestly just tell them straight up, like, like you said, I just tell them that like, because I think like one of those things is honesty. Like people can redo too, and you can feel the people that have that, like they're just in it full on. And clients love that. I don't think it's that helpful personally. Right? Like long-term, co-dependence, I don't think never ends up working. I won't talk too much about that because that would pretty much off half anyways. Umut I think having honesty and saying, Hey, I'm having empathy here. Like I get it. I understand it's also my job to do this. I like to let them know what the I'm thinking as a coach, let them know all my coaching secrets. I'm not hiding anything.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I'm literally saying this because I care, but B I'm going to football practice after this and that's happening regardless. So like, do you want to know the truth with kind of scaffolding or logically adding in things based on your life? Or do you want me to just feel your feelings and like, like people react to that. Cause you can have that conversation in a productive way. You don't have to hide everything. And you also don't have to just give your heart to people either, because I think that either one of those spectrums aren't helpful.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah. I mean, I remember in the past I used to work with a lot of moving stuff with people that were in pain and the only way for at the time for me to figure it out was to literally, like I had a couple of more than one sessions where I'm like can you just sit there? I'll be right back. And I literally went around the corner and moved. Like they moved where they couldn't see me to try to figure out like what was going on. I'm like, Oh, that, so my way of dealing with it was to try to get inside their head and do everything the way they were doing to solve it. The part that I really screwed up and I would not recommend anyone do this is I started attaching to their issues. And if I couldn't get them out of the pain, then I was a for weeks on end because you know, the last nine people that came through, it worked amazingly well, how come it doesn't work for Bob?
Speaker 1 (38:42):
And I'm, I must not be able to figure something else out. And I ended up dropping out it, it stopped doing all that together because I couldn't handle the failures because I was taking them personally. And then if you fast forward and like any skill, if you, if you get better at it and you are taking on more and more difficult cases, at some point, you're probably gonna be left with all the people you can't solve. Right. I mean, as you sort of climb up that, that whatever that ladder is. So I took like five, six years out of it. Didn't do any hands on work, did nothing. And then once I started getting back into it, it's like, okay, I didn't even start doing, I stopped doing histories. I stopped doing people would walk in cold and I would literally tell people I'm like, all right cool.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
We'll try some stuff and see what happens. And they're like, no, you're supposed to fix my issue. I'm like, Nope, I'm going to do the best I can. You've got two hours. I'll do whatever I can to help you if it works great. Awesome. If it doesn't, here's all your money back. Sorry. I tried. And most of the time they were pretty accepting with that and odds are, I got a lot better results too, you know? So I think it's that fine line of yes. You can be empathetic. Yes. You can understand what they're going through. Yes. You're showing them compassion. But at the end of the day, you're not trying to take on all of their issues, which I see a lot of trainers and coaches do because they've been taught that that's what caring looks like is like, man, you're going to burn out like so
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Fast and get like, get this. So like your, and again, this is my personal opinion, but you're almost doing them all. Long-Term like disservice. Oh. And that's hard to wrap your mind around because you're like I'm coming here to help them out and do everything. I can move up that line of thinking for me a lot of times, not every time, but that's the thing that's going to make them not successful. Long-Term because what happens when you're gone? And so you end up building that codependency, which is again, can work, but what happens if you quit coaching or are they like don't have any money and all this stuff. So I like to think of it in those terms where it works acutely and very, for short periods of time. But again, if that's your inroad to get to the other end, that's like having an idea of where you're going.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
But if it's just, if you're just hammering empathy and compassion and giving your all on to everything, but I also, it makes you, it sounds like I'm being lazy when I say that, but I'm doing it systematically in a way where I get where it's going to go. Yeah. Doing less. Sometimes it's doing way more for them, which again, works both ways. I get paid more to do less. I also have to use my brain to do it systematically, but they get more out of it. It's like a win-win, but it's hard when you explain it that way, like you, you sound like a lazy piece of , but I like to think I'm smarter than that. But
Speaker 2 (41:21):
My blog post this morning in my email was literally about this. And it was like, you know, when people come to you and they state like, Oh, so like, let's say someone wants coaching. And they say, well, you know, I'm an introvert. So I need someone going to reach out to me or I don't have times. And I'm like, so let's look at the reality of what is going on here. Do you really think you're going to find better success if you wait around for the entire universe to stop what it's doing catering to you, or do you think maybe the changing yourself within the environment might be a higher level of success? And I think that's a big part of what we do is I explain to people like, Hey, guess what, what you're doing, doesn't work. What you've been doing, doesn't work. How can we get you to do something better? And I know that we're, you know, it's a very long circuitous route to get there. But I think so many people think that we are coming in to fix them. And it's like, no,
Speaker 3 (42:13):
At the same time, I know you're very similar. Like if someone, like, if you kind of switch it around and someone reaches out and someone's putting in the work, we'll give our all, it doesn't feel like we're draining the cup. And so like a lot of the strategy for that is someone's like, I need you to message me every day. Right? Like send me reminders. Like how about you messaged me like twice a week and come to me with a question and stuff. And it's just, you're kind of testing them. But if they do that, I'll give them everything they want. I'm not adverse to doing more work if it gets them there, but I'm also not going to do the work. I'm totally pumped. And it's like, what we talked about when, when you, when you've been mentoring me, like as I've gone through my career and it's like, you kind of tested me, like you would send me emails and stuff.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
I didn't, I kind of knew you were doing that. But like what, again, like you're, you're seeing who wants it enough and it doesn't take that much. Like as long as you're trying, we'll give you everything that we got for the most part. I'm still gonna go lift, but it's a way better relationship because then it's not codependency. It's, it's more of a mentorship and that is what coaching is. And so if you can't get there, I don't really believe you're coaching. You're just doing everything for them. That's, that's not the same thing as coaching someone, in my opinion, like at all.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Yeah. And I've made this mistake before in the past too, like I would have clients that led me down rabbit holes of micromanaging their stuff. And I felt like I had to answer their question. So like fast forward through 17 emails, I was on email all the time. I'd make sure to answer them within a half hour. And I would look back and I'm like, wait a minute. I'm micromanaging like three milligrams. They're fricking zinc. Now is this where we ended up? And meanwhile, they're eating like 60 grams of protein a day. And I looked back and went, Oh , that that's my fault. That's not their fault. Like they, their brain wanted to go there and I just let them go there. And I, in essence enabled them to get a bad result. It's like, Oh .
Speaker 3 (44:05):
But like, that's the thing. Like, those are like the trials that we go through to kind of get to this point. And like, I guess the hardest thing as a new coach and like, not that we're giving advice to new coaches, but like to get into this field, like there's a lot of work that has to happen just personally and experience-wise, and obviously you have to go through those mistakes. So you're obviously not gonna end at the point in which we're saying, but hopefully you can get there faster. Cause I don't think like all those ness ups that I've done and like all my fields teaching included and as an athlete, those things helped me get to this point. But I was also had I kind of dissolved my ego in some elements to kind of get there too. Because once you realize that it's cool to have a fancy physiology degree and learn about nutrition and all this , once you realize none of that stuff really matters when it comes to into then you're good.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Like then that stuff is additive. You can use that to help the other stuff, but you got nothing without that coaching relationship. And like you said, it comes down to 40 grams of protein to a hundred grams of protein. Honestly, most people did that. Especially like the females that we deal with. Like, not that we only deal with female, but it, most of them eat over a hundred grams of protein and had to figure that thing out. Most of them will lose weight without any coaching. Yeah. Like it ends up being that simple for a lot of people. It just doesn't sound. It's harder to do. It's easy for us as that you need to do this, but that's where coaching comes in. But it is simple. The elements are very simple. It's almost like it's almost silly how simple it is. Umnd I always come back to that and Joe and I talk about it all the time. It's just like, , there's not actually not that much included here. Move more workout and like eat the right amount. Like, I don't know what else is there. Yeah. Getting them to do it, getting them to do it.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah. That's the key. That's like the whole key. Yeah. And I've even taken to doing that with very short responses. Like I'll tell someone, okay, you're going to do a 2000 meter test on the rower and it's going to be Tuesday. And they're like, Oh, I don't want to do this. This is horrible in the past. I'd give them every physiologic reason why we're doing this. Why we do the assessment? And I stole this from Chris Voss. Now I just write. Yeah, I know I'm an with a smiley face and send an email.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
They secretly love that Ryan, when Ryan gave me BFR eight by eight Zercher squats, 30 seconds arrests pursing him. But I felt, you know, but I was crushed and I was like, I kinda like this. So they people like that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
And you like it. And like outside of like the crazy people, like we talk about crazy. Most people don't actually give a about why it works.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
But even
Speaker 3 (46:34):
The rowing that you'd give them on the physiological response, they're coming to Mike T. Nelson. You know, when I'm a coach, I'm a fitness trainer. I'm gonna go to MC the one, all this stuff. They don't really want to do that work if they did, they would have already learned all this stuff you learned. It's mostly your client. And I, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but most people don't really give a . Even though they think they do. It's like, do you know what it means to give a ? That's like a two-hour seminar that you have to go over three times and write notes down to even get what Mike's email said. Do you really want to do that? And the answer will be no, if they're really truthful.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think like Jeff said is true. Is that your view coaches is glorified translators. Like, okay, what did they ask? Ooh, what did they truly want to know? And then I'm going to measure, what did you do? Because that, to me tells me more than everything else, because we've all had the same thing, right? Client complaints for 17 paragraphs, about how a 500 meter on the rower, eight by eight searcher or BFR, whatever was horrible. But they did it to me. The fact that they did it is more important than the 17 paragraphs. They get your response and you're like, cool, bro. Like, I've done that too heartfelt email. It's like, this is why I don't really care. And like, I know I'm, I'm trying to be empathetic, but like the reason why I don't care, maybe you need to understand why I don't care. Cause it doesn't matter. And once you get to that point, like you're good.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Well, I think there's, there's the big difference there that I think between the nutrition and the fitness stuff though, is that in nutrition? The biggest problem is that we don't actually know a lot of times what they do. We have a pretty good inkling because you know, if you're 200 pounds and eating 1200 calories and not losing weight, probably not eating 1200 calories. So that's the hardest part then is to be like, Hey, how can I bring? Because a lot of people come to this thing for the solution. And especially within like the stronger you community, I kind of have developed this reputation as someone who talks a lot about behavior. And I, I deal a lot with like skills to kind of help. And so I get a lot of people that come to me with this expectation that I'm going to fix them and they come to me and in the first week I'm like, okay, here's your homework, boom, boom, boom.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
And they're like, what, why do I have to do all this stuff? And I'm like, you want to try to intervene in these issues you might have with emotionally or whatever it might be. We're going to have to develop some skills. It's gonna require a lot of practice, a lot of work. And you're probably gonna have to put more into this than someone else. Who's just going to count macros. And we might not even, so they don't get that. They don't get that fix. And they're super disappointed. And they're like, well, and I'm like, yeah, that's not what I do. I don't fix anyone. I just give people tools. And if they can utilize these tools, they might see some change. And I don't even know. I don't know how many of them actually see the change either. Like there's, you know, that's, that's up in the air, you know, we don't even know what really is successful. I mean, that's the one thing about like behavior and psychology and stuff is that we don't really know if anything works. Like we kind of have some, you know some inkling from some research, but we still don't really know. And it doesn't seem like, you know, it just helps. Hopefully people feel better about what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Yeah. Cool. We'll have you guys back on again. Cause I thought it was fascinating to spend 45 minutes talking about nutritional coaching and we really didn't talk about nutrition at all, but that that's the reality. I mean, that's the part that you think you have to, you have to have some type of system of working with it and yeah. Does the physiology matter? Absolutely. But the psychology matters too. And as much as I'm an exercise physiologist, I'll be the first to admit that mindset and psychology will almost always Trump physiology and our coaching aspect. So I'm glad you didn't have any questions for us today. So that was good. Yeah. These six essential amino acids didn't go.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
Yeah, no clue anymore. I'm going to refer to my one note.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Cool. So we're going to be, we'll find more about you guys.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Well, we've got our PR, we've got our podcast slash YouTube channel, the pump, which we started off with as a kind of research thing. And we turned into just head shit-talking www.foodonthemind.com stretch, talk mainly about behavior. I have a daily blog and a daily email that goes out just free, basically a lot of free stuff. And then on Instagram at Jeb Stuart Johnston.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Yeah, mine's easy. I'm just on Instagram at [inaudible] G U Edo dot power because I was a powerlifter at one point, I think I got to change it at some point it's going to be like ITO surfer or like I'm a I'm I'm doing jujitsu now. Sound like a washed up. I'm trying to figure out where the next name transfers into. It's probably just like loser
Speaker 1 (51:31):
And it's been 45 minutes and we don't know how much you've dead lifted in the past.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
That's true. It's 734 pounds. Seven 34. Okay. Got it. So seven 45, seven 40, 40 my base. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Kilos. I know it's confused. It's competition seven Oh five. So yeah, I'm not that strong anymore. . Cool buddy.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
Awesome. Well, I gotta run. Thank you guys so much for being on here and we'll have you guys back again. I really appreciate the conversation and it's always super nice to talk to people who are literally doing this on a day by day basis in the trenches too, which is cause to me, that's where you're in essence, you're getting paid to get a result and if you don't get results, you don't get paid. So you learn real fast. What works thanks for having us. Awesome. See you guys take care. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the flexor diet podcast. Hopefully you enjoyed that conversation there with the good buddies job and a Dean from stronger. You, they do great work there over at stronger you. Yes, I do some online coaching myself, but if you are looking for general nutrition information, I would highly recommend them.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
And if you're still listening, you still have a chance to get to the flux diet certification. It's still open as of this recording. It's Thursday, September 17th, you have until this Sunday night, September 20th at midnight, to get into this round of the flux diet certification. And you will be able to email me directly through there. If you have any questions about the material 30 hours cover eight different interventions from protein fasting micronutrients. Obviously we're covering all the macros protein fats, carbohydrates, sleep, some stuff on exercise and neat. And I think you'll really enjoy it. All the feedback I've gotten so far has been awesome. And to date we've literally only had one refund that was someone who purchased the course and attempted to go through it in three hours and said, you didn't learn anything new and wanted his money back. So we gave him his money back but that was the only person so far.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
So go to flux, diet.com, F L E X, D I E t.com. You'll be able to learn a complete system of how to use nutrition for online or even in person work, especially now I think having some component of your business, especially if you're a trainer or a gym motor online is going to be essential and you can do a lot of the nutrition stuff online. Even if you have an in-person gym. In fact, that's what I would recommend because it does take a little bit more time and interaction, especially with clients who may only be training once a week, once a month in your facility, even if they're there three or four or five days a week, they still have another 23 hours to go home and mess it up. So having some guidance, having them work with a coach, having them learn what they need to do for better body composition and performance is going to be key because as you know, vast majority of people coming in to gyms are looking for performance and especially body composition, though, if you're listening right now, as of this recording, September 17th, you can go over to flex diet.com and enroll in the flex diet certification.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
Open through Sunday, September 20th at midnight central standard time. If you're listening to this outside of that time, you can still go to flux diet.com, get on the wait list and the newsletter for next time. Thank you so much greatly appreciate it. I love all the feedback you have any comments or anything, please hit them up, leave them on the iTunes there or wherever you want to submit reviews. Talk to you again very soon.