Today, I've got something out of the ordinary for you. I recorded an episode with my friend Marcos about my experience with plant-based medicine during my recent trip to Costa Rica. Some of these substances may change in classification in the next few years based on research about their therapeutic use, and I hope to spur more conversation about these types of treatments. Disclaimer: The information provided in this podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice. The content of this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical recommendations, diagnoses, or treatment. The use of information in this podcast is at one’s own discretion and is not an endorsement of use.
The Flex Diet Podcast is brought to you by the Flex Diet Certification. Go to https://flexdiet.com/ for 8 interventions on nutrition and recovery. If you're outside the enrollment window, sign up for my free newsletter, and you'll be notified when it opens!
Marcos https://www.linkedin.com/in/strongerfitness
Mike Bledsoe on IG https://www.instagram.com/mike_bledsoe/?hl=en
An Urgent Plea to Users of Psychedelics: Let’s Consider a More Ethical Menu of Plants and Compounds by Tim Ferriss
https://tim.blog/2021/02/21/urgent-plea-users-of-psychedelics-ethical-plants-compounds/
Amazon Conservation Team via Dr Mark Plotkin
Kambo Casita, Nosoro Costa Rica https://www.kambocasita.com/
Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) is a 501(c)(3) non-profit research and educational organization that develops medical, legal, and cultural contexts for people to benefit from the careful uses of psychedelics and marijuana.
Dr Rick Doblin of MAPS podcasts
Rick Doblin: Psychedelics | Lex Fridman Podcast #202
Joe Rogan Experience: Dr Rick Doblin
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1Z8lzhvHCMv0c8qZWXbzzK
Mitchell, J.M., Bogenschutz, M., Lilienstein, A. et al.MDMA-assisted therapy for severe PTSD: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled phase 3 study. Nat Med27, 1025–1033 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41591-021-01336-3
Selected References
Ayahuasca(1-9)
Kambo (10-18)
1. Dos Santos RG, Valle M, Bouso JC, Nomdedéu JF, Rodríguez-Espinosa J, McIlhenny EH, et al. Autonomic, neuroendocrine, and immunological effects of ayahuasca: a comparative study with d-amphetamine. Journal of clinical psychopharmacology. 2011;31(6):717-26.
2. Hamill J, Hallak J, Dursun SM, Baker G. Ayahuasca: Psychological and Physiologic Effects, Pharmacology and Potential Uses in Addiction and Mental Illness. Curr Neuropharmacol. 2019;17(2):108-28.
3. Estrella-Parra EA, Almanza-Pérez JC, Alarcón-Aguilar FJ. Ayahuasca: Uses, Phytochemical and Biological Activities. Nat Prod Bioprospect. 2019;9(4):251-65.
4. Orsolini L, Chiappini S, Papanti D, Latini R, Volpe U, Fornaro M, et al. How does ayahuasca work from a psychiatric perspective? Pros and cons of the entheogenic therapy. Hum Psychopharmacol. 2020;35(3):e2728.
5. dos Santos RG. Immunological effects of ayahuasca in humans. J Psychoactive Drugs. 2014;46(5):383-8.
6. Zeifman RJ, Palhano-Fontes F, Hallak J, Arcoverde E, Maia-Oliveira JP, Araujo DB. The Impact of Ayahuasca on Suicidality: Results From a Randomized Controlled Trial. Front Pharmacol. 2019;10:1325.
7. Dos Santos RG, Grasa E, Valle M, Ballester MR, Bouso JC, Nomdedéu JF, et al. Pharmacology of ayahuasca administered in two repeated doses. Psychopharmacology. 2012;219(4):1039-53.
8. Winkelman M. Psychedelics as medicines for substance abuse rehabilitation: evaluating treatments with LSD, Peyote, Ibogaine and Ayahuasca. Curr Drug Abuse Rev. 2014;7(2):101-16.
9. Palhano-Fontes F, Barreto D, Onias H, Andrade KC, Novaes MM, Pessoa JA, et al. Rapid antidepressant effects of the psychedelic ayahuasca in treatment-resistant depression: a randomized placebo-controlled trial. Psychol Med. 2019;49(4):655-63.
10. Schmidt TT, Reiche S, Hage CLC, Bermpohl F, Majic T. Acute and subacute psychoactive effects of Kambo, the secretion of the Amazonian Giant Maki Frog (Phyllomedusa bicolor): retrospective reports. Sci Rep. 2020;10(1):21544.
11. Roy R, Baranwal A, Espiridion ED. Can Overuse of Kambo Cause Psychosis? Cureus. 2018;10(6):e2770.
12. Majic T, Sauter M, Bermpohl F, Schmidt TT. Connected to the spirit of the frog: An Internet-based survey on Kambo, the secretion of the Amazonian Giant Maki Frog (Phyllomedusa bicolor): Motivations for use, settings and subjective experiences. J Psychopharmacol. 2021;35(4):421-36.
13. Rali P, O'Corragain O, Oresanya L, Yu D, Sheriff O, Weiss R, et al. Incidence of venous thromboembolism in coronavirus disease 2019: An experience from a single large academic center. J Vasc Surg Venous Lymphat Disord. 2021;9(3):585-91 e2.
14. Byard RW. Is voluntary envenomation from the kambo ritual therapeutic or toxic? Forensic Sci Med Pathol. 2020;16(2):205-6.
15. Peleg Hasson S, Shachar E, Kessner R, Shpigel S, Wolf I. Kambo-Induced Systemic Inflammatory Response: A Case Report of Acute Disease Progression of Cholangiocarcinoma. Integr Cancer Ther. 2021;20:1534735421999106.
16. Junior VH, Martins IA. KAMBO: an Amazonian enigma. J Venom Res. 2020;10:13-7.
17. Silva F, Monteiro WM, Bernarde PS. "Kambo" frog (Phyllomedusa bicolor): use in folk medicine and potential health risks. Rev Soc Bras Med Trop. 2019;52:e20180467.
18. den Brave PS, Bruins E, Bronkhorst MW. Phyllomedusa bicolor skin secretion and the Kambo ritual. J Venom Anim Toxins Incl Trop Dis. 2014;20:40.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 00:00
Hey, what's going on is Dr. Michael Nelson here. Welcome back to the flex diet podcast. And today we've got something a little bit out of the ordinary, vast majority of the time, it's myself talking or interviewing researchers and experts, and all things related to performance. And body comp how to do that without destroying your health. Today is a similar in those lines of trying to be the best that you can. And I decided to record an episode with my buddy Marcos from New York City here, about my experience doing some plant medicine down in Costa Rica, this past January. So myself and my wife went down there with a group of people. And we did I Alaska. And we also did a combo, or cambo, however you want to pronounce it. I was debating about even releasing this as an episode or not since one, it's a little bit off topic. So if you are not interested in those things, and you want to skip this episode, no worries at all. And I decided to record it while back and I've opted to release it. I think it'll be hopefully interesting to you. And we go through marcoses experience with different compounds and talk about myself my experience, and what sort of led up to it and background. Hopefully, maybe it'll a few between the two of us some words of wisdom, I guess you could say. And the main reason I decided to release this to was some of these substances will hopefully be changed in classification. And the next few years, maps has done a lot of great work, shout out to Rick Doblin looking at PTSD treatments, using MDMA to a different compound, also looking at the use of psilocybin. And hopefully these compounds will find better and more therapeutical use in the future. They are on track for that. Granted, that's still a while away. But something Michael Pollan brought up in an interview is that the culture in the US around any of these substances, is probably going to leg behind for quite some time. Just because we don't really have a lot of practice with them. So my hopes in releasing this is trying to spur more conversation about the culture and all the other aspects that go into it. And for myself, it was more of just the journey, something I started looking at over, man probably six years ago now think the first person ever heard talk about this was Mike Bledsoe had some conversations with him. And being the big geek that I am dug into a lot of research that I could find, and spend many years just reading primary research, I didn't really read a lot of other stuff. I didn't read any trip reports per se. People had experiences, I would definitely talk to him about it. But I wanted more of a guess kind of a scientific perspective. And I didn't really plan on starting with Iosco. To me that was kind of me maybe a little further down the line, but circumstances lined up and it was something that we were able to do. So, important disclaimer here. The information provided in this podcast is for general information purpose only does not constitute the practice of medicine or other health care providing services and does not include the giving of medical advice. The content of this podcast is intended to be is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical recommendations, diagnosis or treatment. And the use of this information in the podcast is that one's own discretion and should not be seen as an endorsement. Currently in the US iosa is a schedule one controlled substance in terms of scheduling, that is the sort of the highest level. So there are legal ramifications related to that. And even just sourcing, so if you set aside the legal things, trying to get good material in the US is going to be made much more difficult because it is a scheduled one substance. Now some areas have started decriminalization, which doesn't necessarily mean that it's legal, just means that law enforcement would not be their top priority. In terms of local enforcement, but as of now, in this recording, these compounds are still illegal. If you go to other countries where that is different, for example, we were in Costa Rica, you may not necessarily have to worry about legality, but it is becoming more of a popular kind of tourist destination. So be very careful and definitely do your homework. Anytime there is an increase in popularity. Of course, like all things, there will be people who are seeking to sort of cash in on that and may not have your best interest in mind. Having gone through this experience, I can definitely see many, many ways in which it could go sideways very fast. So proceed with extreme caution. Again, if that is something that you decide to do, legality and ethics and everything else aside, as I mentioned, there are very legitimate risks not only for safety, especially if you were on any other medications, as always talk to your doctor or your physician, and make sure that you tell them what you are doing, because there are real contraindications for it. So anyway, here is kind of my description of it, talking with my good buddy, Marcos, we talked about his experiences with these compounds, and then getting into my experience with it. And this is brought to you by the flex diet certification. If you want more information on eight interventions for nutrition, and recovery, these do not include Iosco go to flux.com fxdt.com, and you'll be able to get on to the waitlist. And we will let you know the next time it is released. That'll also put you on to the free newsletter. So enjoy this chat with my good buddy, Marcos. Hey, welcome back. And I'm here with my good buddy, Mr. Marcos. How are you sir? What's up? Mike? How you doing? Good. Good. Do you want to say where you're at and what you do if you want to potentially found?
07:22
Yeah, I'm a New York based, personal trainer. Whatever that means. I think I've said this before on other podcasts, I just, I'm just some guy, man, I like helping people. I think at this point in my life, in September, it'll be 20 years that I'm training started when I was 14, September seven weeks nice. And I find I find those spaces where I can help people are just holding space for people very gratifying for me. So no matter what people want to do, whether it's to gain weight, lose weight, it's more of a, you know, transcendental connection that I that I make with people as cheesy as that sounds, but if anyone that knows me and my clients, they know we have a very tight connection and I think that really helps with like behavior change and then everything else externally that they want, like lifting weights and fitness. So yeah.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 08:18
So you're looking at a much more as a whole person, not just some guy or gal who just comes into lift with you know,
08:26
just gonna like tinker with your psychology and see what I could what we could upgrade and fix. Yeah, I guess.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 08:32
Awesome. And we first met Dr. Ben houses place down and Costa Rica. Four years ago. Now I lose track of time for or okay. And was that the bro week or were you at the other one? Okay, yeah. That was a that was a crazy time. Nobody died. So it was good. I almost died. lexar almost died. Yep, we had the incidence with a missing toe. You had a little, you want to talk about your waterfall incident slip on the waterfall.
09:03
I'm afraid of heights and deep water. So I figured, hey, I'm here with a whole bunch of my friends. So why not try to overcome two fears and one try to jump off a legend slip and just fell face first and sell a bunch of wet rocks.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 09:17
Yeah, and I was at top because I had been to that location before insane people almost fall and probably done a little too much. EMT stuff is did you see sea patrol for like 12 years. And all I kept thinking was something happens how do we extract people out of there? If something catastrophic happens and everyone's at the bottom? So I'm like, think I'm just gonna chill at the top and then I saw you go and disappear and I'm like, Oh my god, I was like oh shit. Cuz that's what everybody else thought. Yeah, cuz I couldn't see at the top. I could see you go off. I could see what happened then you just disappear and I was like
09:59
as I was coming I was thinking I was like, How the fuck am I gonna get out of here? We're gonna ruin everyone's trip. Oh, no, get up.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 10:06
But you were okay. You got out on your own power you healed. I mean, Dave Roscoe came on to save my ass. But yeah. And you were one of the first people I had talked to you about just even plant medicines and things of that nature I had. Some other groups are good friends with Mike Bledsoe and kind of people in those circles who had kind of talked about it. But you're like one of the first people I met in, I don't wanna say more of the fitness circles, but that we just started talking about it when we were we're down there. And what I really liked is you're super supportive and very enthusiastic, but not like everybody needs to do this, like now type person, which really scares me
10:52
to man need to I think a lot of the plant medicine, it's been like, so over sensationalized, it loses a lot of it's a, you know, I think there's, there's a lot of should be a lot of respect and reverence around these substances. And, you know, all it takes is like one celebrity after another, it's just like, sort of just like watered down and it just turns into something else.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 11:18
Yeah, do you think as I guess the popular maybe not the best word, but as it's becoming more popular? Is that something you've read about? Or what are your kind of concerns about it? Well, in terms of like resources, for sure.
11:32
And you hear a lot of people like Hamilton, Morris, Michael Pollan's Barris talking about it. Yeah. Or it's just, you know, this is a very limited resource. And it's like something so sacred and special. It's like, for me, in my case, I thought I needed it to overcome certain things in my mind. I don't want to say traumas, but whatever people want to call it. And it was throughout my process, getting there the journey beforehand, where I really just, you know, solve a lot of those issues by my own division before the medicine. And that was pretty neat. And then when I drank the medicine, the first four times I didn't get shit. And by medicine, specifically, really? Yeah. What if one she just blew me off into like, the 100th dimension, which was one of the more aggressive journeys I've had on my wasco at this point, now jack, like, three dozen times. Oh, wow. I don't really the number isn't important, but just giving you like, you know, like the only thing And out of those out of all of those I've had like a handful that have been just out of this world. The rest have been somewhat pleasant, more dreamlike, but
12:49
so yeah,
12:50
I think what's happening now is that people want this experience. And even now at the gym, you know, I try not to roll my eyes but you know, trainers like, Oh, you know, me a new client or their clients talking about mushrooms. You should go talk to Marcos, you know, man, my God, I went to this party last night and I was like, so cooked cooked up. I did like chocolate mushrooms. And it was crazy. And I'm just like, oh, like, that's not how you do it, man. What do you mean? I'm, like,
Dr. Mike T Nelson 13:19
that's completely different based on sudden setting. What
13:22
are your attendees? Sure. So Timothy Leary is the guy who came up with like setting setting right it was like I set my mindset, my mindset going down to Peru was like I have these things that I want to make better within myself, improve, get rid of certain things and just be happier with myself. So I had a mission. The setting went to this place called the way in and what else baru, which is all the way up in the mountains, really awesome, like, just mythical place. And that in itself is like, so magical and so special. You know, and I've also drank a yoga loft on top of a laser tag, and Brooklyn goes for the experience, which was exactly what I expected it to be. So that wasn't the right setting for me. But you know, when people are doing it, just like casual just to try it. I think that's very dangerous is it's not I can't pick off grandmas off the street and be like, Hey, lady, you want to go squat? It just wouldn't be just it's not efficacious. I think we're safe. Yeah, we tend to hear people having like weird, like, psychotic episodes, and I'm never doing that again. And it's just dangerous, man. It's not. You got to have a real concrete goal, at least in my experience, from what I've seen from other practitioners and people who have tried to
Dr. Mike T Nelson 14:53
do you think it's different going to another country because I was a historically Not in New York City, you know what I mean? It's much more indifferent in terms of environment, kind of where it came from, or doesn't matter as long as you have a good set and setting.
15:15
So this is tough, because probably the most powerful shaman that I've met is upstate, was Upstate. And it was a very, she, she's just incredible. She trained, she's she people trained, which is part of the Peruvian tradition. And they run their shop very, very tight, awesome place, it's just great. They really emphasize the diet, which is another big factor. And as far as I understand, as other places do, you know, they somehow acquire Iowa from certain places. As like with any other plan, you know, it depends where I grow in who's grown. A lot of those intentions in itself go into the medicine on how they mix it as well. There's many different vines, they add different things. So I equated to like, okay, so you'd like to drink, let's say, you like Long Island Iced Tea. And we'll use this as an example because it has different ingredients in it. It's like seven different alcohols. So now I could go up to the best 100 mixologists in the world, you're going to get 100 different Long Island iced teas, despite it being the same ingredients. So there's a lot that goes into that, where you get it from what vine, what's added, who's serving it. And you know, what, did you follow the diet, that's a big, that's probably To me, that's one of the biggest ones, I find that in going to Peru. For myself, personally, I was supposed to do the diet two months out, and I started diet six months out because I was so like, hell bent on doing this properly. For the first time in my life, I was actually going to commit to something 100% rather than half assing everything as I normally do. So that was super important. Whereas, you know, I've, you know, there's you could join groups on Facebook, they're like, Hey, Mike, you know, just so you know, we're Friday 555 my time You know, there's I was gonna ceremony tomorrow night. Oh, it's not I don't think that's it. I don't want to say it's a waste because everyone's experience is very unique. And I think with with a more proper set with proper with a better mindset, I think people will definitely get more out of it. You know?
Dr. Mike T Nelson 17:50
So and you think why the first four times you didn't get much was there something different on the fifth time or just kind of the way it happens? You know,
17:58
I think it was a pretty neat lesson for me and expectations. Yeah, I had been listening to a bunch of like, Alan Watts lectures I just listened to I didn't say anything. It's just,
Dr. Mike T Nelson 18:08
yeah, it makes everything sound amazing. You're like, Whoa, I can't remember when Vincent Price used to do the Scooby Doo specials. Yeah, everything is very like, you know, Oh, hello, Michael, you know, yeah.
18:21
So what's his face? I don't want to talk a lot about like Zen Buddhism. And at that point, I had, like, done DMT some San Pedro before I did I, uh, so I was a little bit, or at least I thought I was somewhat familiar with, like, what to expect. But it wasn't until the fifth one where she was like, dude, now that you're like, let me go. I got you.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 18:48
So he went back to the same place five times in a row. Is that right?
18:52
Well, no, that time that I went there. I was there for two weeks. That was Thanksgiving. 2014 or 2015. Okay. So there you drank two days on one day off two days on two days off.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 19:11
Okay, so in a row kind of
19:12
two weeks. And yeah, it was awesome. After I broke through, it was like, Oh, okay. It was very, extremely humbling, you know, because that's I think that's that was part of the lesson is like letting go acceptance. being patient. No expectations and then just complete surrender.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 19:33
Okay, what was everyone here? Yeah. And what was so different about the fifth experience then if you want to share it? I know sometimes people don't like sharing because it's a very personal thing.
19:43
No, I'm okay with it. It was it was the most immersive psychedelic experience that I had up to that point where, oh, actually, something was different. I asked the shaman If I could play my own playlist, what happened was the first four ceremonies I was in a year with other people, like a dozen people. And you know, people would have like amazing experiences like day one, you know, some chick is like, Oh my god, I saw my mom, I've never met my mom, she didn't allow to give birth to me like this crazy shit. And I'm over here, like, oh, cool, I can't wait for tomorrow. And on the fifth day, I was just so upset. I was like, Man, this is like, core shit. And someone was like, Hey, man, you're like, really, like, just, you just need to chill. You're like, little bit. Want to take? And I was like, Alright, we'll do he was like, we're gonna do a private ceremony. And I was like, Is it cool if I play my own playlist and on there, I had like a whole bunch of like, different. I had some Clinton and Sal on there. Hans Zimmer, and a whole bunch of other composers that I really enjoy. And after drinking just one cup, because all other nights I was drinking three cups. After drinking one cup, as soon as I lay down, it was like, I literally just felt like I got turned into like this, like stardust. And I just blast off outer space where everything is made out of gold. So it started with a scarab beetle just shooting across and me following it into this weird journey of intertwining dimensions and whatnot. Hmm. Wow. So that was, that was pretty neat.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 21:23
What was your takeaway from that?
21:27
You know, it left me with a with a, I want to say scary, but an immense sense of wonder and awe. You know, the fact that I was like, so insignificant yet significant. Like, I'm not shit, but I'm the center of my universe kind of thing. This weird, like dichotomy of, you know, how important we are to our current reality. But in the grand scheme of things, we're just a piece of, we're all the same piece. is beautiful. It was, as you know, a lot of these things very indescribable.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 21:59
Yes. And you just try to hold on a second, you get so many lessons, and you're just trying to like grab onto sand and just take what you can with you. But now that I've done it a few more times that like sense of family, family family already that comes with it is just awesome. And at time, most of the times it feel safe, other times get kicked in the balls when you when your intentions aren't pure. Can you maybe controls not the best word but feels like as you've done it more you can kind of guide the experience a little bit more or not so much.
22:40
No, because
22:43
you know, I also think because of our our physiology, like you know. And what we eat has a lot to do with it if you're fasted, you know, so I could drink the same brew fasted three days, nothing happens a breakfast, even if it's a vegan breakfast, the next day, and you know, even if you have like coffee or whatever, I feel like that changes the whole experience. So trying to control that is just, I think, a moot point. Which is why I have so much respect for like, proper guides and like shamans or anyone who's in that field, because it's the hardest thing I'll ever do. I don't know how you could drink a cup and then like, guide, you know, a dozen to two dozen people. While you're singing playing egos, like
23:29
just or instruments. it's mind blowing to me. I'm not I don't think I'll ever be at that level.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 23:36
Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a different level. You mean in the shaman that we went and worked with? After having an experience, you're like, I was talking to a buddy of mine on the way back, we went to talk to her the next day. And we're both like, I would love to see how she sees the world. Because it isn't how I see the world. You know what I mean? And it's just one of those things that's hard to describe. You know, it's just the things that she would say the things that she picked up on, you know, the interactions it was, yeah, it was pretty crazy.
24:16
I think some people are really just born for that to like to serve the medicine and it's just I think the word shaman is also losing its potency now because it's like, you know, you meet a guy who's meant to Burning Man three times better and like two tattoos. Sherman bro Chapman. Come to my penthouse. I'll give you some I Alaska. Which Hey, me, he may as well be like the most powerful dude on the planet. But chances are really, you know, you go somewhere to like Columbia and it's like, dude's over 100 you know, Centurions certain medicine that are just like, Hey, man, I don't even know is the best I can do and you're like, Okay, you just serve 50 people.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 24:57
Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if that To just become so consciously or I should say unconsciously competent, right? It's like asking Michael Jordan to miss a free throw in his prime. You know, it's like they know what they're doing, they can execute everything. But if you were to ask him to try to explain what they're doing, it's probably so subconscious at that point. I think it might be difficult. I agree. I agree. So your journey? Yeah, it's a little bit of a longer story. But I ended up going down to Costa Rica, and the sorrow went down with some other friends. And my wife, Jodi came with me. And she's fine with me talking about it. And it's one of those things I had looked into for quite a while, probably five or six years, you know, spend reading, I'm a weirdo. So I didn't look at much of any of the trip reports, or any of that kind of stuff. I just felt like, for me, that wasn't helpful. If someone had a story about it. I listened to their story, I thought it was super interesting. But to like random people, I didn't know like, their experience, I just wasn't that interested, because I didn't really know how it would benefit me. And I was afraid if anything else that may negatively biased me subconsciously. So I, I just didn't really read any of those I read, you know, go figure primary literature, you know, what's in it? How does it work, that kind of stuff, which doesn't really ever prepare you for an experience, but the biggest thing I wanted to know is based on the actual literature, you know, what are the risks? How do you mitigate the risks, you know, what are the potential upsides and I'd read about, you know, LSD and psilocybin and stuff because someone David knows, work and, you know, Imperial College of London, where they, you know, those people and stuck him in an MRI, and you see, like, massive changes to areas of the brain, like the default mode network, and, like stuff, we had no idea what's really going on before. So to me, just as a, something to understand neurosciences is super fascinating as a research tool also. So, so did that and kind of the plan in my head was, at some point when the time is right, maybe start with the small dose of psilocybin mushrooms and, you know, kind of gradually go up for you know, from there, and I wasn't in a huge hurry to do any of that, per se, that use cannabis. But, you know, still pretty mild compared to a lot of people, especially with edibles. Like the highest dose of an edible I've ever had is like 15 milligrams, which, for some people is like nothing. Um, and we had the opportunity came up, some friends of ours are going down to Costa Rica, we had a business meeting down there. And so like, Hey, you can stay after for another day, you know, we all did it. Last year, we went to this place, and they kind of checked out and I was like, okay, and the people in the group are very analytical, very precise, especially what they were doing and based on some of their past careers, one of the guys being in high level tier one operator in the military. So I'm like, Okay, if, if they're okay with it, they've already did it, and they're inviting us as an option to come back wasn't required, then, okay, that's a pretty good stamp of approval, right? if something went bad, or you didn't really trust anyone, you sure as hell are not gonna invite your other good friends you're doing a business project with to come down and be like, hey, let's go do this thing. And even then, I was like, Ah, man, I don't know. Like, I didn't want to start with Iosco, That, to me was still pretty freaky. You know, just based on the handful of experiences I've heard from people. And so God, I talked about it. And the more I thought about it, like the only reason I wouldn't do it at this point was, I don't know what I would find, right? There's always that nervousness of like, what were you learn? Maybe it's something bad. And the more I studied, I'm like, oh, doesn't really ever a bad trip, per se. There's unsafe trips, and there's a lot of shit that can go sideways, especially after having done it. Oh, boy, there's a lot of shit that can go sideways. On I'm like, okay, so we talked about it. And I was like, yeah, let's, you know, I also think about if I flash forward into the future, you know, four months later after everyone's done it, and I didn't do it what I regret not doing it, especially having had the opportunity there at that time. I'm like, Yeah, I think I probably would have regretted it, you know, so I'm like, Okay, so that's probably good info to do it. So we get out there and we had done combo in the morning. So read this great place in Massaro, it's actually combo casita. And we go out there we have all the groups data at this opposite house, just overlooking the jungle, beautiful place. And so they took like three or four people at a time to do combo. And so we didn't really, I didn't know much about combo at all. I asked the facilitator, they're like, well, we recommend you do combo in the morning and then do the Iosco ceremony in the evening. So I'm like, okay, whatever. you recommend that sounds good that people are like, Yeah, we did it last year, it was good and like, Okay, so here's your money, sign up, walk over there. And even then I was still in my head. I told God, I'm like, if I walk in, and the shaman is there for the combo ceremony, which she was, and every fiber of my body is like, nope, this is a horrible idea. I'm like, here's all my money. I'm out. So like, even up until that point, I was still like, if I'm not, you know, feeling secure about this, or, you know, 100% sure that they have the best interest of the group in mind, then keep my money, I'm out, I can make more money, I'm not worried about it. So we went in, and she was super nice, super great. And combo for people don't know, is, I don't know if it's really considered a poison, but it's a peptide secreted by a frog. And you put a burden like three, three holes, sometimes more in the side of your arm, typically, like into another locations. And they apply this, you know, peptides in there. And you have a pretty strong reaction to it. When, when we got there, I didn't know anything about it. So we're getting ready and there's a practitioner that sits next to you. The shaman comes over and she looks at each person and she's like, Alright, take your shirt off my guide. She pokes on my shoulder, and she tells the apprentice who was there next to me who was administering it. She's like, yep, closer to lymph nodes make strong. I'm like, Oh, that's, I don't know what this is. Might be a bad idea. And so we're going through and doing it. They'd put it in some eyedrops. I don't know if you've ever had those before. Oh, you did? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, cool. I have not done that. It burns like hell. It's like I dropped the burn. Like how you supposed to help with vision. And I don't know what all but I'm like, Okay, sure. Whatever. You know, I did. I'm just like, I'm whatever you think is best I'm in. And then they did ropey which is Oh, yeah. Yeah, like, yeah, I've done that. That is not fun. That was intense. And this is before the combo. So to give you the eyedrops, you're sitting out, you're looking over the jungle, they do the ropey, I can't remember which order it was in. And all of a sudden, this tobacco goes up your nose, they're like, okay, don't inhale, it, just just let it hang out there. And you feel like this immense burning, your eyes are watering and felt like someone stuck my head in a vise and was just like, trying to close it for about five or eight minutes. And while this is going on, the two other people had started just a little bit ahead of me, I look up and the guy in front of me, all of a sudden just turns white and just just pass the straight out. I mean, he was sitting down, he's on a bad, you know, nothing, nothing bad happened to him. And then all of a sudden, I see the guy to the left and me this is right before they do the burn for the combo on me. And he starts looking funny. And he sort of you know, crawls over to his side. And the apprentice who's next to me, she's like, okay, when we do this coming up right now, just don't pass out. I don't want you to pass out because she's getting nervous as people are just, you know, in there dropping like flies. So they, you know, burn the three little holes in your arm, and they stick it in the basically the burn hole. And that's fascinating. Because if you if you because in my brain, I'm thinking about why are they doing this? Why are they burning your skin? But the more I thought about him like it's actually kind of a no, it's a perfect but a brilliant delivery system. Yes. Right. So now you've got three entry points. You're going literally right into the bloodstream. It's very fast acting as you've had it done. And initially, you just feel this warm sensation coming up. And then all I felt was this super intense pressure. Like I can feel warm. I looked down on my skin was turning red. I just feel this sensation coming all the way up, man, they keep going and she's like, okay, just let me know, don't don't pass out. And I remember seeing like, okay, the world is about the size of the pinhole right now. A couple minutes later, and she's like, Okay, that's enough. And then literally as soon as they wiped it off, like everything like started reversing almost like instantly. Did you Berge I didn't, the people the two other guys did. So they also give you this papaya juice to drink and there's some other things that go on. And I didn't feel nauseous like at all, which is crazy because the guy in front of me threw up the guy next to me, threw up the shotgun goes over to the guy next to me and she looks and he goes up parasites. It's like what he's like yeah, you have parasites. It's just pointing to this stuff he had, you know, thrown up in the in the bowl. I think why they do combo is that initially people will purge they would throw up during the combo ceremony so they probably don't as much in the evening. I didn't have any of that. So I don't know if you did your condo. Oh, I threw up. Yeah. Which is super common, I guess.
35:07
Yeah. Or just feels like volcano. And it's just, it's crazy because I've done some. I've done a whole bunch of happy. Oh, and the last one that I did recently, which was when the Colombian shaman was the wildest version I've ever done of it. As soon as I was doing it with my brother. And I see my brother going through it. It's his first time doing her band. It's like, at this point, I've done it a shit ton of times, and I'm just like, Yeah, man, whatever. Like you're just like, you just breathe. Just breathe. You're fine. And I just see my brother's face just like swell his eyes coming out of every pore all barely breathe. And I'm like, dude, like, relax.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 35:46
You know, puts the
35:49
the pipe in my nose and just blows through it. I thought someone shot me in the head.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 35:53
Yeah, I was getting deeper into
35:55
my own shit. I was worse than my brother just saw for one nostril.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 35:59
Oh, wow.
36:02
So yeah, I can't believe you did all three in a row. I'm curious. So curious about some hunger.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 36:07
It all happened in such fast succession. I can't really tell you what was different from each one, you know, because it was all kind of part of the ceremony. They did. But after we had we were hanging out at the house. So Jody had her experience, which she's like, yeah, and part of it. I had to, I had to get up and use the bathroom. And so I went to use the bathroom in my face was all swollen. She's like, I looked like a frog. And they're like, Oh, yeah, that's just frog face. That happens. Oh, yeah. You know, because you get like a reaction. You just get a lot of intense swelling from it. Like, I didn't have to use the bathroom. I think that would have freaked me out quite a bit. Yes, we went to I can just hanging out at the house. We were the last group to go through. And I watched a sermon it was at night. And it wasn't anything to do in the house. I didn't bring my computer didn't really bring my phone because I was like, well, it'd be good time just to hang out with people. I didn't really, I guess I was more careful about what inputs I wanted to lead in. I'm like, this would be a great time just to relax to unplug. I'm not doing any client stuff. They know I'm off the assistant coaches working with them. I'm not be contacted. Nobody can get a hold of me anyway. And I'm like, I'll just probably journal a lot. You know, I brought a book to read maybe if I get really bored. And so I slept for a while read. I had all these plans to like write all this stuff out of my head. I wrote nothing. Like nothing, which is very odd. For me. Jodie was super tired. So she slept almost the whole afternoon. Just like I've never felt that calm in my life is weird. And it's great. Because you're in a beautiful environment, you're hanging out at a house overlooking the jungle. And I thought that was super weird, right. And that kind of happened to everyone in the group. Like they were all super much more quiet and reserved, but not like spaced out or anything like that, like everyone was still very present. But they it didn't seem like the outside world was bothering people as much. Everyone's focused for ceremony. Right? And that could be a part of it, too. You know, because the couple of people had done it the year before. A couple people had not. So it was this mix of people who had done it and people who hadn't done it. Did you feel kind of weird and more clear after doing combo?
38:27
Definitely weird. In the first part clear. It probably took me like an hour for me to feel clear after
Dr. Mike T Nelson 38:36
Oh, yeah, you feel miserable for a while. There's no doubt with the wrap. Hey, I at least this last time that I did it it. I think if anything was probably like too strong. I feel like it's sort of like really sort of encroached on my eyes ceremony. Because it was like this was like, right before I Oh, okay. I was like super jittery. Oh, yeah. I was like, Jesus, I was just like, we just hung out the house. And you know, you're usually fasting by that point. So yeah, like a little bit hungry. But I'm like, Yeah, whatever. And so we go over in the evening for the ceremony. And we get in, and the shaman was there. It was interesting to see just the different icons and stuff that they had. So what we did is a form of called demain. So DNA is from Brazil. It's a I guess, maybe church isn't really the right word, but it's a religion down there. And one of the things I was super concerned about is what you had mentioned, you go to different places, they may put something extra in the iwoca. It may be from a different line, they may brew it differently. And I kept thinking in my head, I'm like, okay, so if all these crazy tourists are coming down for this, and I'm some unscrupulous person, and they're all expecting This expectation right everyone wants to feel like they got their money's worth. And part of the culture around it is people purge and people throw up. So I had heard stories of people putting, you know, tobacco and other things in I wasco to make sure people purge and make sure they get their quote, unquote, money's worth. And so that kind of worried me a little bit. I'm like, I don't know, if they want to have other stuff in there. This particular branch, they just, you know, they just use quote, unquote, pri wasco, which isn't really anything per se. But they don't really add any other additives. And that's where they get it from, it's cooked for like seven days and people this whole process that goes with it. And I felt better knowing that okay, at least, it's coming from a legit source. I'm in another country, it's not illegal down there. I don't have to worry about some shady character trying to import God knows what like across the border and all that kind of stuff. And we get there and there's just, you know, symbols of like Jesus on the cross, there's this crazy looking frog, just all sorts of different symbols, there was a Buddha. And I remember as a ceremony was starting looking at this this frog, and thinking, don't stare at the frog, you're gonna have like dreams of like crazy frogs coming after you and stuff. So I was like, trying not to look at the the frog per se cuz I was like, paranoid, for some reason, there's gonna be frogs and my dreams. The place was set up interesting was super small. There's maybe only 1234567 people that did it. They had, like at least five or six other assistants, they called guardians. At first, I was like, why do you need so many people for this? And actually setting stuff up? You know, this is how much I know. Right? And as she's setting stuff up, she's like, okay, you two guys over here kind of by this door. And it says open air complex with the pool. And it just faces the jungle. So there's no other than the main door, which is another side, there's, unless you're scaling up a jungle foot wall, no one's coming in from the other side. But it was nice. It was very open, like you felt like you're kind of sort of in nature, but kind of not. And there's two other people on the other side, Jody and another person were there. And actually setting stuff up. She's telling the Guardian, she's like, okay, you watch this right side, and she had stacked most of the people on the right side. And she had everyone on the right side, except for one other person on the other side, then I'm on the right side. And there was this guy, Rob, who was right by the this kind of open air doorway. And I asked him, I said, Well, what what's your job, he's like, I kneel here, and I protect the space. And he was very serious, like, super nice, dude. But he was had this kind of serious look on his face, like he meant business. And I'm like, that's kind of weird, like, Who's the hell's gonna scale through a jungle and come in in the middle of the night. And I thought it was kind of weird, but I'm like, whatever, you know, they're doing their thing. So they started the ceremony, and we pick up little cards, we read the card, and it's like, communion normals. So the first person goes up, first person for my group goes up, you know, she gets iwoca drinks, it sits back down, next person goes up. So we each go up in succession, one after the other. And they're playing music, they're, you know, having all sorts of stuff going on. And then all of a sudden, the first person just starts crying, and just sobbing. At this point, I'm still, you know, kneeling, and she's kind of going through stuff. And then all of a sudden, the next person, she starts losing her shit. And then all of a sudden, you hear the third person go, and I'm sitting here going, Oh, it's like being on the ocean, seeing the tidal wave coming in. And I know about how much time was separated from when they got, you know, the first dose, and there's a guy to the right of me, and thinking, Oh, shit, here it comes. Okay, just just breathe, you know, it's gonna be fine. It'll be cool. Everything is safe. You know, don't worry about it. Again, next week is like super quiet. Nothing happens. So all of a sudden, an hour later, I'm like, Oh, I don't feel anything at all. Like, the whole left side of the room is like super quiet. And you go up, she's like, Do you want another another cup? I'm like, sure, whatever. I don't know. You tell me like I'm here. You guide me. She's like, sure. gives me another cup, my great. And the second person, just all of a sudden, if you ever heard the sound of someone choking on their own vomit. That was the sound that she made, which if anyone's heard that your first thought is like, Oh, definitely very fearful. It's like the only time in the whole ceremony. I was like, really freaked out. And so everyone is honor like instantly, and the shaman is holding her and she's going, come back to your body come back to your body. And the guy next to me is an EMT. He stands up and stops like halfway. I'm going there's people there helping her. You know, I don't know what's going on. They got it under control. I'm not messing with the ceremony. And that was like the only time I was like, super nervous. She's just going through just a lot of shit. I'm like, holy man, I've seen some shit boy. Yeah, like yelling shrieking, almost like an exorcism. That's what if you didn't know anything, you would swear that's what you were seeing, right for some people. And I was like, Oh man. And so the person next to her she's here start sobbing. And she comes around again, this is like, right before I got my second dose. The guy next to me is like super quiet. He had, you know, laid back down after this event. She goes up and she goes, are you you know how you doing? He's, she's like, do you want a second dose? And he's been like, super quiet this whole time? He's like, no. I'm like, Okay, I guess he's gone through some shit too. But it was interesting to see how some people were very outward, vocally crying, I don't wanna say loud. But other people like him were super internal. Like, he wasn't even making a peep. But he was obviously, you know, going through some stuff. This goes on for a while there's you know, playing a bunch of tunes. And she comes by She goes, how you doing? I'm like, yeah, I'm still kneeling at this point. Everyone's lying down. I'm just like, just like, really? I'm like, Yeah, she's I got here. I have another glass like, okay, fine, whatever. So I have a third glass. And I'm watching everyone just lose their shit, you know, as it's going on. And like a half hour after the third glass, I'm thinking, you know, similar to you. I'm like, okay, so I came all the way down here to have whatever experience this is, and maybe my experiences that I don't get an experience. Like, maybe that's what this is teaching me that that's part of the drill. And then after that, I was like, oh, but I actually got to witness everything that happened to everyone. Because a lot of people were completely out of it. They sure didn't know anything that was happening to anyone else in the room. I got to see people, you know, sit down, stand up, move around, walk around how many times they went to the bathroom? And I was like, okay, so maybe that's the deal. Maybe that's my takeaway is that I get to witness all these other people like kind of working through stuff. I was like, okay, that's, that's pretty cool. She comes by again, she's like anything going on? I'm like, this is no, not really. I said, I feel a little funny, but like, nothing, really nothing. Like No, just like, okay, comes back in the fourth glass. And I'm like, okay, whatever, you're, you know, I'm following your lead, like, Cool. All right. And so this point, I'm like, okay, maybe I need to lay down, maybe just need to close my eyes. Maybe I'm just trying too hard. You know, cuz all the other people were like, upright, and they lay down and just start sobbing, you know? And like, okay, so I'm laying down laying down. Yeah, there's like, 45 minutes into it comes by again. She's like, how are you doing? I'm like, yeah, you know, like, I feel something, but not much. She's like, no visions. And I'm like, No, no visions. She's like, no visions. And I'm like, no. And she's like, oh, and she goes off, comes back with a fifth glass. And I'm like, okay, whatever glasses, huh? How big are the cups with like, you know, average size? I don't know. They look, you know, normal size. And I'm like, okay, and I remember her. I'm kneeling. I remember taking the cup. And as I finished drinking it, it wasn't even like, all the way done. All I hear is a picture of her face. And she goes interesting. And like the whole world like just disappeared like baloney. Like you were, it felt like you were sitting on a dock that just disintegrated. And you dropped through the earth somehow. And King cups for your first time. Yeah. And I woke up on a beach in South Padre with Jody drinking coffee. And we were hanging out kiteboarding. And there's this little voice that goes, this is it. What? Like this? Is it? Like what I mean, this is it? Oh, this is what I was searching for. Right? Cuz I didn't know what to expect. Like, one of the questions I had is like, Am I on the right path? Am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing? But having this sort of weird trauma in the past that I should be dealing with that I've just maybe don't even know about? Yeah. And I was like, oh, oh, cool. You know, the voice or, you know, sounds like a voice is like, no, this is this is it? I was like, oh, okay, that's pretty cool. And then literally, I got stuck in the present day. Like if you ever watched an old school VHS like tape recorder that got stuck on a loop. It was the weirdest thing where I sort of knew what was going on in the room. I could see people move I could see people get up. But then it would just loop they would just loop over and over and over and over like the same things just kept happening. And once in a while I get like a little vision like that and then just like being stuck in a room. And it wasn't like you know people have like Knights or like you can't Sleep, you know, and you're awake. And it was literally like four years of just being stuck in what felt like the present day. Yeah, because time doesn't exist in that space. No. And we have no hard to explain that to people who haven't felt it. And all I kept thinking was, the sun will come up at some point, just chill, just breathe. The sun will come up at some point. And eventually it did. But it felt like for it felt like four years. And I was thinking about and I was like, it was almost like, oh, here's your less than dumb ass. You're okay. You're supposed to be more present. And I'm gonna give you four years to practice like being more present. I like that. Yeah, that's a great segue. Yeah, and in weird stuff happens, like during the ceremony. I remember once someone gave us advice beforehand, she's like, and if you have to use the bathroom, get up and use the bathroom. And I'm like, What the hell kind of advice is this? That's like the dumbest advice I've ever heard. And I remember lying there after, like my read before my fifth glass going, you know, I kind of have to use the bathroom. You know, I should use the bathroom. I don't know if I really need to use the bathroom or not. But I think I do. And this feels like it goes on forever, right? It's probably like a few seconds. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, she said, if I need to use a bathroom, I should get up and use the bathroom. So get up. And one of the other guardians was a shorter person. And but this one, I kind of feel that it wasn't I hadn't stood up the whole time. So I don't know how my motor skills are, I felt a little funky. And I get up a little wobbly. And one of the Guardians was helping you could see the look of like fear on her face thinking I was just gonna pull over and just, you know, tumble her into the floor. Here. She obviously gets the bathroom, I get in. And so we're just sensation to know you're definitely under the influence of something. But you can still walk around and move. It's it. That part was weird. And I remember standing there taking a whiz going. This is the best wisdom of my entire life. This is just like pure relief.
52:09
It's so funny, because so many times people tell me like, you know, I don't want to do that. Or I don't think it's for me because I'm gonna lose my mind. Or I'm gonna shit myself. And I'm like, yeah, first of all, at least in this one specific case. I've seen you fucking drunk. Yeah. Then this is way easier if you've been drunk, you can for the most part control any psychedelic altered state of mind, in the right with the right amount, dosage and all that stuff.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 52:36
Yeah. Um,
52:39
but yeah, I even you know, you'll do it a few more times, maybe. And every time the whole bathroom debate. Like, there's like a real thing I know. But I don't want to miss out on the initial takeoff. So I'm going to stay here a little bit longer and right. You just stay there forever. Because, you know, you sort of fall into the like this like lucid state where you just sort of fall back like you said, it's like the floor disintegrates underneath you. And you just get blasted off into the fifth dimension. And different like reels play different dimensions or whatever, different visions. And then you're out, you snap out of it. You're like, Oh, shit, I gotta pee. I gotta get out. Yeah. It's very weird.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 53:24
Yeah, and I remember also lying there, like, probably right after I had the fourth glass or so. And hearing people just all of a sudden, just like, you know, losing their shit. And I remember lying there Normally, you would think, Oh, my God, what's happening to that person? Like, Oh, I'm so worried about them. And you know, of course you have a lot of serotonin and other neurotransmitters are being altered. I remember lying, they're gone. Yeah, that's right. You go girl, you get those demons. Like I'm so proud of you. I'm like, so happy for all of you. Because you know that everybody did it by they volunteer. They did it out of their own freewill. No one was forcing them to do it. And you know, a couple of people, they were like, really, really nervous. One person tried to rebook her flight out the day before, because she didn't want to do it. And that was interesting of the sensation of just feeling like I'm just sending them love and making sure they're good. I know they're safe. And I'm just so happy. I'm so grateful that they're doing this for themselves. And yeah, that was a super interesting thing. And I just kept thinking I'm like, Wow, that's so cool that I get to hear what other people are going through that I get to kind of be a little bit of a witness to things happening.
54:37
Which is cool because what happens is a lot of times you're the the guide that was next to you. That was kneeling and said I have to protect the space. You think of it as a container right? Like Yeah, field and when he's protecting it from his like outside energies that may be coming in or things you know that come out of you guys that are going off in To the period space or whatever. So it sounds very Hocus Pocus to be Oh, yeah. But I swear to God, it's someone real.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 55:11
Yeah, that guy like during the ceremony. I also remember lying there going. I'm so glad that dude's there. I'm super stoked that he's there doing his thing. You know, we're like before I'm like, I don't know, this is kind of weird, you know? Yeah. Killer frogs coming after us. Yeah,
55:29
what ends up happening is, it's almost like a, it's a very chaotic orchestra, in the sense that you have all the guides, you have the shaman, you know, she's singing or maybe some of her helpers are singing while other people are like trying to like corral and take care of everyone. At the same time, the people you're drinking with the people that are under the influence of, you know, you'll have maybe the whole room crying, just sobbing. And it's the most painful, heartfelt, like deepest sorrow. Oh, yeah. And then that influences everyone else's ceremony, just the power of sound. It's super, you know, sad. Someone laughs everyone starts laughing. It's the weirdest sort of like ebb and flow of, of noise and sound that really influences what you're going through.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 56:20
Oh, 100%. And I remember lying there also going, ah, I'm so glad I'm not here with a bunch of dickheads. Because I had this flash forward to, you know, not knowing any of these people go into some place that it may be a great place that, you know, does 40 or 50 people, and I was so grateful knowing that I know all these people, for the most part, I know, they signed up to do this. I'm sharing this space, you know, with them. I'm so proud of them doing it. And I knew that they were all there for the right reason. And that, to me was like, super reassuring also, because of exactly what you said.
56:54
Yeah. And this weird thing happens, right? Like you were you may have been, like, cool with those people like I like yeah, like we do business together. But after that one night, you guys that's like such an inexplicable bond that you guys have now where it's like, next time you see those people to assist, you know, hugs and love and everything. Yeah, and that was offered you love together, you were sad together. It's
Dr. Mike T Nelson 57:19
It's a weird mix of emotions. And the timing of it was perfect, the sun sort of coming up. And, you know, people kind of had a little bit more of an earlier experience than I did. So they kind of got up and the sun's coming up, and then just kind of went out and sat by the pool. And once I realized that was back in the present space, not the wasco loop, or whatever I was in. It was literally like, boom, now you're back. Like you're waiting for the loop to repeat, and it didn't. And I realized, Oh, the sun's coming up. Like the second the sun came up. It sounds just bizarre is that I was like, I was back. I was just back in the present. And I remember getting up and going next to them. And I remember hearing everything that they went through and I just went up and gave him like a big hug. And Jodie was still not up yet. So she got up after I gave her a big hug. And I just sat next to you know, a friend of ours, and she just put her head on my shoulder and I was like, oh, it just felt like you were so proud of like all those people for because I got to see all the ships they went through. So I just felt like super proud that they you know, opted to do this. They did the hard thing. You heard all the things. You know, the one girl who they were saying come back to your body. I asked her I said, you know what happened? She's like, I died. I'm like, what she's like, no, I literally thought I was dead. Oh, and hearing her I'm like, Yeah, I I believe you.
58:51
Man, I've been through some shit. One of the last times that I drank actually, when it's a full of electric shock. Whoa, there's a cat in the place where I was drinking. And I saw it earlier in the day and I was like, Oh, cute cats. I like cats, but I'm just super allergic to them. Okay, and what happened was after drinking may have been two cups, three cups, I don't remember. But I had to start purging I hugged the bucket. Yeah. Where the cat was around. No, no, two minutes later. I'm like,
Dr. Mike T Nelson 59:28
Oh, no.
59:31
So my face is swollen. I look like Will Smith in hedge. Just Walden. The shaman comes over and she just starts doing some crazy shit that I've never seen. You know, leaves rattling the
59:45
show.
59:47
And for the first time in my life, it felt like my body was possessed like I was like, looking at my body from above like what the fuck is happening like my body was doing its own thing moving on its own was a pretty wild. Every experience is different man, you know, we're gonna get
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:00:05
I know. And that's the that's the weird thing. So we were talking to the Guardians The next day, and they were nice. And we went up to the house and hung out and got some food. And I asked them, they're like, how you doing? I said, Oh, I'm pretty good. And every one of them was like, You drank a lot? Like, I don't know, I'm just here, you know, doing what she recommended. I don't know what a lot a little is. But to your point, I think it's so variable that I'm sure I could easily show up the same place the same, I want the same thing. probably have one glass and just be in God knows where, you know, so.
1:00:44
So something else I will say, at least in my, in my mind, it makes sense that everyone has a different affinity to like a different plant or meadow. Sure. So like weed 50 milligrams for me, and I'm going to be done for the for the rest of the night. If someone's smoking weed, like down the block, and I smell it, I get like contact Hi, I'm fucked. You're sensitive to weed. But mushrooms, I could do a shit ton and have an amazing experience. What I was good various differently. And I find that with certain people, it's just way different. Yeah, whether it's your masculine derivatives, I began, whatever it may be. It's just you don't know where you're going. It's just like, Alright, this is the one for me.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:01:26
Yeah. And I asked him about it. I said, you know, does that mean anything? Should I've done anything different? And they're just like, no, it just happens to some people. You know, it's your first time. So there's no way to know what you're like you said your chemical makeup is what are your detox pathways? You know, who knows? Right? It's just there's just a lot of variables. And it was definitely something they they said they see on occasion, that's definitely not the norm. But, you know, it's, it happens. I'm like, Oh, okay. I think you'd like to taste. It actually wasn't bad. you're one of those people. I can't I was one of those. Everyone's like, Oh my god, this is gonna be like, you're gonna be licking dirt. And I was like, I can just like Jaeger Meister.
1:02:05
As soon as I smell it, I'm ready to gagging every time I go to the relay, or the Mesa, whatever they call it. Yeah, whatever they want to call it. Every time I smell it, I'm
1:02:15
just like,
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:02:17
it was thicker than I thought. That's one thing I was kind of surprised at. So
1:02:22
it's interesting because in the sunset central diamond church, they I do think they use the least
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:02:29
amount of additives, added additives, but it's my understanding too.
1:02:34
As far as I know, there's certain practitioners of Santa I made that actually get up and dance. While they're under the influence of if I can do that. I'm more of an introspective guy. I want to go inside and set myself and you know, travel off to Alice in Wonderland.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:02:51
Yeah, the guy next to me after he had his little experience, like he kept getting up and wandering around, you know, out by the pool kept coming back. I was interesting to see Jody get up and use the bathroom a bunch of times, because she was doing it more for gut healing. It was fascinating to see people move so different. Like the one girl had the big experience, she was, you know, very lot of trapped tension kind of upper chest breather. And before she kind of had that breakdown even after to watch her get up and go to the bathroom, she moved completely different. No tension in her traps. like to just be able to witness and the deceit different things like that Jodi got up went to the bathroom, more times than she remembered. Then her head position was much better, it was more back in neutral. And it was Yeah, it was just interesting to see that and the guardians all had kind of like a white sort of gown on. And right before I had my fifth glass, I was like, Oh, it's like they're there. It looks like they were on little conveyor belts moving around. You know, because they all kind of moved very similar and you couldn't see their feet because of you know, the gown and just look like they were little ghosts that are just kind of just like moving around in the place. Yeah, you have your aura ring on while you were? I did. Yeah. Did you check the numbers on that night? How you slept? Yeah, I didn't really sleep at all. I did a little bit towards the morning HRV was all over the place. Right? You could see it was not much not much. Like you know, completely crazy like you know when I was having that experience, and it wasn't nothing was really that out of the ordinary per se. I did have my watch on but I tried only to look at the time once because I didn't want that to kind of screw with me and that was like 420 in the morning for some reason. So in time I remember because I had I had this idea that if I kept looking at the time I would feel like I was stuck in the buddy of mine called it oh you were stuck in the eternal now. Like the turtle now I didn't even know there's like a name for this stuff. You were taking it anyone the beach apparently. Right? So I tried not to look at it in hindsight. I probably would not even have brought my watch I, I just didn't think about it, you know, but it was so dark in there. I just turned it off and just didn't really look at it. And then the other part that was interesting was you talked about singing, they had very interesting music, just a super wide eclectic mix. At one point, they played a mix of hallelujah by Leonard Cohen. But it was a female singer. And this is probably right after I had my fourth glass. I remember lying there. I'm like, I love this song is like one of my favorites. And you don't have that idea where you're kind of singing along to it. But you think that you're, you're kind of lip synching to it. And the next day, they're like, who is the guy singing during the night? And all the gardens are like, No, none of us were singing. And there was a male voice and it was amazing. And I'm like, Oh, I remember like, kind of following along to the song. And the other guy next to me. He was out cold. Turns out it was me. That's awesome.
1:06:00
Yeah, you're so
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:06:02
I was like, oh, weird. So you have these things that stick in your head of like, oh, maybe I should try singing again. I don't know. But it's like, Yeah, kind of freaks me out. And it so happened, we got an email the other day. And then we got engaged to project 86. They're having their final album. And so you got to bid on some stuff as a fundraiser for the record. So Jody and I are doing date with the band on one of their tours. And part of it is we get to sing a song with him on stage, which absolutely terrifies me. But after all, those things kind of lined up. I'm like, I can't like not do that, you know, just because of the significance and how it turned out and the timing and everything else. So it's just interesting how, you know, you're maybe more aware of certain things. And the other really weird one was I so I made a bunch of notes on you know, like takeaways, things like that. And I was like, Okay, I work on being more present, you know, just more meditation. And the next day, I went back and looked at my notebook, and I forgot I had written this note down, and I put listen to mastodon later albums.
1:07:09
I'm like, what, like, what,
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:07:12
where is this from? This makes no sense whatsoever. like screaming from the abyss. He's like, Hey, brother, listen to it. Right? And I'm like, I'm like, Okay, I'm like, Ah, you know, I like their stuff before the first album. The second album, I thought was really good. Crack the sky. After the album, like, I don't know, I just can't get in there stuff. But like, whatever. You know, it's a song I kind of like their tunes. I'll put them on. Like ever since that experience, like I convinced now they're like the best band on the face of the planet. Like appreciate all of their later stuff. I've like listened to on repeat, like ad nauseum. One of their songs like literally almost makes me cry every time I hear it again. It's funny. And none of their music was played during the ceremony. Like there was nothing about it at all. But it's almost like you're listening to it. Like you've never heard it before. And you're like, I knew that had three vocalists but I never heard like, the harmonies like this and the time change. It was even now it's still just trips me out.
1:08:09
She ation for sound. Post, like, a very impactful ceremony is insane. It's crazy. I, in a few ceremonies I've had I mean, I want to say the privilege but like, after the ceremonies have been close, we'll have that. You know, you're still loopy, sort of in that space. Yes. Some part of you left there. I'll pop on some headphones, and I'll listen to some like neoclassical stuff. And I'll just start fucking sobbing man. Yeah, like, horizontal tears coming out. Just because sound is just so powerful.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:08:46
Yeah. Yeah. And they gave us part of the soundtrack that they use, which was kind of cool. And I haven't been able to listen to it yet. Like, I'm sure I will. You know that because it's just it. I've been saving them for if I get to a point where I'm kind of forgetting about the experience, and I feel like I'm not living the lessons that I learned from it, then I'll go back and listen to it because I know it's gonna put me right back to where I was. So I'll remind you Yeah, I appreciate that.
1:09:22
That's so cool, man. It's It's awesome. You know, I keep running into people that for the most part, everyone that I've met that has done I Alaska have been just awesome people. And now that more people in my circle, they're doing it and they're like, Marcos, oh my god. It's it just makes me happy. Yeah.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:09:46
Yeah. And thank you for letting me share it with you and stuff too. It's a it's kind of nice in everybody there to have like the we had the whole next day off. So we just got to sit around and talk about our experiences. We went and hung out at the beach. We had Probably another day and a half before we left, which, to me was just perfect. You know, we're hanging out in Costa Rica a beautiful place. And some of the people who didn't do the ceremony this year did it the year before. So it was super helpful to just share the experience of people that you knew, understood what was going on. And like kind of what you observed and what they went through and their experience and what you noticed. And I mean, that was like, really interesting. And we met another guy who was there. He was there. He wasn't doing wasco he was doing. Oh, I'm liking I begin, or Iboga. Which, that scares the shit out of me. But that's, that's Yeah, yeah, he was there. And we're asking him about, he's like, Oh, you've done a bunch of times this before the ceremonies, like, yeah. And he's like, but I don't talk about it. Like, you don't talk about it as like, no. I said, Do you talk about with your wife at all, when you go back? It's like, No, I don't talk about anyone. And I said, Well, why not? He's like, Well, I think it diminishes its value. And I'm like, maybe, you know, who knows, I mean, each have their own. But at least to all of us, we thought it was super nice to be able to share what everybody wanted, wasn't required. And to be with people who had a similar experience that year or the year before. And just to kind of pull different things out. And even just talking to those people, you know, six months later, you still pull stuff out. You're like, Oh, yeah, that thing? Yeah, yeah, that's gonna have,
1:11:31
yeah, where you know, you'll be listening to a song or podcast or something. Or just one of those like, moments of just like, oh, shit, I totally forgot that. I saw this in a vision or something. Yeah. That being said, I do think that sharing circle sad songs, or whatever you want to call them are super important. Especially for first timers. Yeah, you can normalize the experience. You know, sometimes with things on your own. You're like, what the fuck just happened? Yeah. I'm going crazy. And then here, everyone, you're like, wait, this guy saw the same thing? I did. So did she and Oh, okay. It's cool. I, to me, that's one of the most integral parts of the whole ceremony. And that starts now your integration process because you just haven't been appreciation and respect for everyone that went through something similar like you.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:12:21
Yeah. And it's trippy. The people had similar experiences, right. So I was talking to my buddy, Rick, I was telling him what happened. He goes, Oh, yeah, you're stuck in the eternal now. I'm like, this is a thing. Like you knew about this. And so we had like, an hour long conversation about it. Like, I didn't even know that was a thing. Like, oh, yeah, it happens a lot. And it's like, oh, just lift or Boris, this cosmic serpent just keeps going keep right. Yeah, yeah. You know, the Native Americans with pod. Especially the Navajo, it's super disrespectful to ask them about their ceremonies. That's what I've heard. Like, they don't want to share anything about it. The the response I heard was, well, it was for us. You weren't there. Go fuck yourself, so to speak. You know, they didn't say in that language. But it is a very big personal
1:13:08
experience. Meaning that you know, you're in there fighting your demons. And that's like your own battle. You don't have to like, talk about it.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:13:16
Yeah. But yeah, I'm looking forward to try that myself someday if it ever happens, but yeah, have you done mescaline? I've done San Pedro. We do so it's so chuma Valens beautiful man San Pedro is like super pleasant. It's if I were to describe it like your best tie your best tipsy with a little bit of Molly and like your best like mushroom. It's like very, very hard centric. The first time I did it, we did a crazy amount which was way different than all the other times I've done it. And I felt like remember the movie Avatar when like the whole world is just like pulsing together. Yeah. That's what it felt like the earth and the sky were connected and everything is just like talking to you. The same very like throbbing energy and it's overwhelming but more in a in a happier way. Rather than like a like a just shocking or you just like, What has happened? Yeah. I'm very pleasant,
1:14:27
I think.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:14:29
Yeah, buddy of mine. He's still down in Peru. I think that's the main one. He's studying to use. He's been down there for a couple of years now. So cool. Yeah. He's just like, I'll be right back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you done I begin or Iboga No.
1:14:49
That one vowel gets tricky. So Hamilton was just went recently took a bone to do it.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:14:56
I saw that episode if people are not familiar watch channel. Morrises pharmacopoeia. Love that show so good.
1:15:05
So him and my mentor friends and they Okay, cool. And it's, uh Yeah, I don't know if I need it at this point in my life. It's one of those that's again, it's I think it should be reserved for people who really are looking for healing. I don't Yeah. I don't know if I want to suffer that much.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:15:27
Because it's long acting too. And there's potential some cardiac toxicity potential.
1:15:30
Right. So now when you do it in Mexico, or in Canada, you got to be strapped to like, you know, monitored art stuff. nurses in there, and doctors are one that I think it's usually the nurses and the doctor. Because it's very, very
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:15:45
powerful. Yeah.
1:15:47
I like how Marvel movies sort of have a little bit of like, psychedelic Yes,
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:15:51
there. Yeah.
1:15:52
Panther. I'm thinking, I don't know, but I'm thinking they're trying to equate that to like, I began in Gabon, right. It's like, you drink it, you die. It's a very masculine voice, they use your the narrator in your head, which could be God, your higher consciousness, the plant, nobody knows. Really. It's, it's open to interpretation. And yeah, then you're like, you know, you get to see your ancestors and everything you've done before, which is what I heard is very similar to Ibogaine. So maybe someday, but yeah.
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:16:29
Yeah, it's interesting. And that's, that's great that they're doing a lot more research on all these compounds. Now, then, obviously, maps was looking at psilocybin for different indications, MDMA will hopefully be approved for PTSD, they just had a really good study in nature science that came out in May. That was pretty phenomenal. So, so long ways to go. And it's probably kind of long overdue. But kind of back to we talked about earlier, my, my fear with all of that is that, especially as you're treating intractable PTSD, with people that have a risk of suicide, the population by definition, someone unfortunately, is probably going to take their life. And if they're doing it on a particular compound, it may give sort of a black eye to potential everything, or I just get worried about something going sideways. And it's showing up in the media and causing a hole to all the progress and just having done just, I was just the one time, man, there's a lot of stuff that could go wrong, so to speak to so I don't think it's anything people should tread lightly do your homework and make sure you know what you're getting into.
1:17:46
Yeah, and and when doing your homework, you know, like, for me, I thought this was going to be a magic bullet. It's not it's part of a journey. It's a very strong suggestion. So depending on your state of mind, this can definitely help push you for better or it could lead you to ruin and despair. And I've seen that happen for people that you know, why isn't this helping me Oh my God, I expected so much out of this, oh my god, I'm just like the worst human and it just spirals into a pretty big black hole. Do your research, you know, all the all the plants are very different, you're gonna get different things out of them. That your medicine workers, shamans or whatever. And if they don't vet you, that's a problem. It should be extensive reciprocal kind of vetting process and ask all the questions you can also I think, as best as you can try to follow the diet. So you had mentioned something earlier that I want to talk about as well. In Peru, what they do is they don't add swag, they do add maybe a little bit of tobacco to certain nightwalkers or they'll give you mapacho which is wild Peruvian tobacco use they make you drink a shit ton of it. Followed by three liters of water on all fours to purge gotcha Westerners to then we have a whole bunch of toxins and energies and whatnot that we have to expel out of our body. Which then it's easier for the idea to like take root literally or figuratively in your body and start starts to work. So I think the diet you know that the cleaner your body is the more that it may help. At least I think so. Yeah. So
Dr. Mike T Nelson 1:19:28
that was kind of the reason they said doing combo first is that it cleans you out makes you more receptive to it. You know, most threat man, that's so cool. Yeah, most people did did purge during that. And we have one person who you know, was that to go through the ceremony and he just wasn't, you know, a good fit for reasons we'll leave out of the conversation but he was fine with it. So I agree with you that it should be definitely a two ways two way street to me Cool, man. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. I really appreciate it. Thank you for all your support and everything. And thank you for being so willing to share your experiences to us. It's been great. I'm so glad you. You're on this side now. Welcome to the team. Yeah, it's a it's been interesting. You know, it's like, you never know where you'll end up or you know what you'll end up not doing but it's a it's been good. And God says to say hi to so Jerry, what's out and Hello. Cool, man. Well, thank you so much. And I'll do a better job keeping in touch with you too. So looking forward to hearing more stories more journal. Have a good night. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. I really appreciate it. On this one, especially I would love any feedback pro con indifferent. I know it was off topic here. But like I said in the intro, my goal is to hopefully try to stir this more intelligent conversations around these. Hopefully, they will be legal ish or more legal in the US coming up. My fear is that the culture and sort of the container and everything else that goes into it may be lacking behind. So if we can start having some of these conversations earlier, I think that will help facilitate everything else that goes into it. As I said in the beginning, this is not to be seen as endorsement of something you should do. Proceed with extreme caution. Do your homework, it's not something I would cavalierly recommend to anyone. And in the US. These are still currently scheduled one substances least Iosco is, which does make it illegal. There are also other concerns related to conservation of resources. So I'll put another link to a great article on that. But any feedback, I would really appreciate it, you can find a way to reach me, I'm sure or put notes below this episode, subscribe on your favorite podcast listening area. Huge thanks to my buddy Marcos for having this conversation with me. I really appreciate it. He was one of the first people after Mike Bledsoe I had talked to about this and he was always very supportive in a very rash and intelligent manner. He was not like, Yeah, you got to go out and do this right away. But he was just explaining how it was beneficial for him, and was very encouraging for me to look into it further. So thank you all very much for listening to this podcast and allowing me to share this episode. Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. Thank you so much. We will talk to you all next week.