Can you really build more muscle just by rethinking how you dose leucine and essential amino acids? Dr. Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D. — co-founder and principal scientist of LEUVATE™ — reveals the science behind protein quality, muscle protein synthesis, and why older adults may need twice the protein dose to get the same results as younger people.
Can you really build more muscle just by rethinking how you dose leucine and essential amino acids? Dr. Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D. — co-founder and principal scientist of LEUVATE™ — reveals the science behind protein quality, muscle protein synthesis, and why older adults may need twice the protein dose to get the same results as younger people.
We dig into mTORC1 signaling, sarcopenia, the 30g protein absorption myth, GLP-1 drug effects on muscle, and the clinical trial data behind LEUVATE™. If you care about muscle, longevity, or protein strategy, this one is loaded.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D. is an Assistant Professor of Health Sciences at DePaul University in Chicago and Owner, Co-Founder, and Principal Scientist of LEUVATE™. His research explores how protein quality, amino acids, and exercise interact to influence muscle adaptation, recovery, and physical function across the lifespan. He is the co-inventor of LEUVATE™ — a precision-engineered leucine-enriched nutritional formula validated across multiple peer-reviewed human clinical trials.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mike T. Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things related to increasing muscle, improved performance, improved body composition, do all of it within a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today on the podcast, we've got Dr. Daniel A.
Taylor. He is the owner, co-founder, and principal scientist over at Luvate, and they're doing some really cool things in the area of amino acids and protein metabolism So if you are a meathead listening to this, which I'm sure you probably are, muscle is one of the things everyone's working to change. And even for longevity, uh, aging populations, muscle is super important.
The fancy term is sarcopenia, the loss of muscle over time. So today we're talking about protein requirements, what are in [00:01:00] protein, such as leucine and other essential amino acids. Um, are there other ways you can deliver these amino acids that are still efficacious and work well in humans? And then we even talk about the research experience, starting a company, and then also some of the effects of GLP-1s related to weight loss.
There's been published data now showing that you do lose some lean muscle mass and lean body mass, I should say, and what does that equate to? And are there potential solutions for this? And I wanted to have Daniel on because I met him at ISSEN. Really great dude, had a, some really good discussions, uh, there recently, and what he's doing as a company I think is really cool.
Like, they're spending the money to do human trials and to do things the right way, and I think a lot of times in the sports supplement realm, we kind of only hear about the horror stories. [00:02:00] We hear about all the, the bad things and when things go wrong. And so when companies are doing something I think is innovative and useful and doing it the right way and showing, uh, data and working to do the expensive and time-consuming human trials to show that their products are efficacious, I want to do whatever I can to highlight them.
And we covered some pretty cool stuff here that is definitely a, a deep dive down into the weeds of amino acids, uh, but I do think it is useful. Uh, side note, as of this recording, I do not have any disclosures, uh, with their company or anything like that. Like I said, the main reason to have them on here is just to, to highlight some of the cool stuff they're doing.
And if you want more from me, uh, check me out on my newsletter, miketnelson.com/newsletter. If you get on the insider list, you get all the great stuff delivered directly to your inbox. So without further ado, here's Dr. Daniel A. [00:03:00] Taylor. Enjoy.
Hello. One sec here Hey, Mike. How you doing, man?
Hello, how are you? Hey, Mike. Doing all right, man. It's good to see you. How's your day going? Um, pretty good. I, I apologize for the little- No worries ... Zoom snafu there. I don't know what... It, it let me in. I tried with the passcode alone, and I couldn't get in. And then when it, it was, like, the ID number with the passcode, it let me in.
Oh. And then when you texted me, it just, like, cut off. Yeah, 'cause I went in, and I, I went out and in a couple times, and it says, "Do you want to end another meeting going on?" I'm like, "What other meeting?" And so I go back to- What other meeting? I go back to Zoom and I'm looking, and I'm like, "Okay." And then I realize, uh-oh, he's probably [00:04:00] in Zoom land at some other meeting and I just kicked him out of it and...
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: No, man, it's all good. All good. Technology, you know? Oh. You'll find this interesting. I, I'm trying to use a, an AI thing I designed to book the, the podcast stuff, and so in theory I had it all... I tested it and it was hooked up to everything else, and it was working, and then today it isn't. So, uh, we'll figure it out.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: But thank you for your patience. Yeah, yeah. No, no worries, man. How, um, how did you make out, uh, at the conference and everything? It was good. Yeah, it was, um... Like always, it's a good time, always a little bit crazy. And I always think that, "Oh, it won't be as busy this, this next time," and I'll come home and I'll be like, oh, back to normal after a day.
And man, I had, like, three... Yeah, I had two days I slept over 11 hours at night, and then I slept eight and a half the next night and felt normal again, so. Yeah. Yeah. All the travel always throws you off, and especially conferences. You know, you're on the go, [00:05:00] and meetings, and I mean, in your case, I mean, you were on stage- Yeah
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: too, so having to, uh, prepare for all that stuff. It just, it throws you off, and then you get back, it takes a few days to, to re-acclimate. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I always... I keep thinking that it doesn't, but then I also... I don't know if you're similar, but I love all the people there, and I love seeing everyone, and I love all the stuff that goes on, but then I also forget that, oh yeah, I don't interact with that many people on a daily basis hardly ever-
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: when I'm home. Yeah. Same. Same. I know. It shocks your system for a second, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, this is cool, man. I, I really appreciate and- Yeah ... meeting you and, uh, speaking at the, at the conference. And, um, you know, I've had a little bit of time to kind of look over your podcast. I mean, it's great stuff what you've done over the years, so I, I'm really appreciative you bring me on your show and, and speaking about this stuff that we'll talk about [00:06:00] today.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: So yeah, really a big thank you. Yeah. No, thank you. And, um, yeah, it's pretty informal, and we'll just, uh, start off. And, um, I have one question, and then we'll kind of get into your research, what you did with Stew, and kind of some of the stuff you got, uh, going on with the new product and- Yeah ... kind of go from there if that sounds good.
Yeah. You know, um, uh, now I sent out... Sorry, I sent out the outline stuff earlier this morning, just- I just got slain. You know, came back from the conference. Oh, that's okay. I was like, "Man, I'm- I didn't see it yet, so just, just tell me what you wanna cover right now. We'll get it in. Yeah. It's... I sent it over.
I think I put in three points. I put in the website stuff. You know, it's got my LinkedIn. Cool. Some, uh, links to, um... You know what? Let me close this window back here. I live in Chicago, so sometimes I get freaking- Yeah ... big trucks driving by. No worries. Hold on one second.[00:07:00]
Yeah, I, I, so I sent out this morning just website stuff, um- Oh, okay, great ... yeah, I gave some links, you know, where Luvate's being sold currently. Um, and I, I think for, for our podcast here, uh, you know, um, some of the main points I, I thought, I- and see what you think about this, but, like, the history of Luvate, how it came about, I mean, I have...
I mean, we're going back, like, really 15 years. I just... That's a story in itself just to how it, it- Oh, yeah ... kind of transitioned to where it's at now. I mean, there's, there's a bit of a story behind that. Um, and then I thought, you know, obviously it's, it's a leucine-enriched, uh, blend of essential amino acids.
That's what it's become. But really the driver of the formula's leucine. So if... I, I don't know if you wanna do a, a... We can do a, a brief history or breakdown on what leucine is and when, you know, when did it really hit the scene in [00:08:00] clinical nutrition and nutrition journals. Um, something like that. And, uh, you know, right now currently I've got a GLP-1 study, a whole body protein synthesis study on the go, uh, with Dan Morais of Toronto and David Church at Arkansas, so.
Nice. You know, I just put those three bullets. I, I figure, you know, what, it's 45 minutes to an hour long, that's probably gonna cover it. And, and anything that you have as well, um, you know, with the Flex Diet that you created and all that, if you wanna bring that in. How- whatever. So. Cool. Yeah. That's just what I had, had thought about, so.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: No, I think that's great. And I'll, I'll start off kind of with a, like, a higher level question, and then we'll get into a little bit how the research is done, and then get down to leucine and the Luvate and kind of go that way, so kind of like a broad picture that kind of funnels down, if that works for you.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You lead, lead the way. Um, I'm all good. You know, I, I just [00:09:00] started now doing podcasts this year, so it's- Oh, nice. That's awesome ... I'm start- I'm start- I'm starting to get the hang of it. Yeah. Yeah, no. All, all good. And you're good till... It's a year Central Time, so you're good till 10:30? I'm good, man, as long, as long as we need.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: All right. Perfect. All right. I'll do a short little pause here, and we'll be ready to go. Okay. Cool. Uh, welcome to the podcast. How are you today? Doing well, Mike. How are you? It's great to see you. Yeah, very nice to meet you at, uh, ISSN through some mutual friends there, mainly Dr. David Church and others.
And, uh, yeah, we had, uh, some good chats there, and I thought, "Hey, you should be on the podcast." And, and DC's also the, the podcast wrangler, so he gets all the cool- ... guests from me, too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I really, I really appreciate it. I thought we had some great conversations, so it's, it's a pleasure to be here with you.
Yeah. My first question is, can we really only use 30 grams of protein at once? That's a [00:10:00] good question. Can we really only use 30 grams of protein at once? It's, uh, it's how you wanna f- how you want to frame that question. So 30 grams of protein, first thing that comes to my mind is, uh, what kind of protein, the source.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Sure. Um, I, I think when we, we speak about the effectiveness of protein, we really have to start at the amino acid composition. Um, and particularly the concentration of the essential amino acids. All right? These are the amino acids that you must consume in your diet, uh, and they generate muscle protein synthesis, or they stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
Um, so i- is, is 30 grams really enough? Well, y- you know, if you go back into the literature and you look at the history of protein dosing, dose response studies, and particularly the framework that we're working around here is [00:11:00] longevity, muscle mass, muscle maintenance, physical function, strength. These type of...
These, these are the main low-lying fruit, uh, outcome measures, uh, that we're really kind of framing this question around. Um, so is 30 grams of protein enough? Well, then you have to look at, well, the amino acid composition, and, uh, what, who is, who is consuming this 30 grams? Younger individuals, so I would say from...
Let's just start at, let's just start from adolescence, um, into, you know, maybe early 30s. And then let's, let's have that question as one part, and then the other part, um, is gonna be perhaps 35 and above, okay? Uh, so we have like a- So I'm in the old person group now. Yes. Yes, exactly. That's the, that's, that's the group where I'm in as well.
So, uh, l- let's separate that question into two groups. We'll just say here younger and [00:12:00] older. Um, and that changes in advanced aging obviously. But younger and older, and particularly let's start with the amino acid compositions, put that all on the table. Uh, so is 30 grams of protein enough? Well, what we know is that we have typically what we consume, if we get it from our whole foods or if we get it from supplements as far as protein, um, y- you know, we're really dividing it out into animal-based proteins and plant-based proteins.
Okay? In general- Animal-based proteins have a higher or a better amino acid composition compared to plant-based proteins. And that's just, they have more essential amino acids, and they also have more leucine content. That's not to say that plant-based proteins are no good. Uh, in fact, um, some of the product development that I've worked on with plant-based proteins, um, are [00:13:00] plant-based blends, you know, from using, uh, mushroom isolates with pea or rice.
You know, you get a pretty decent amino acid composition, um- Yeah. As long as you're using a blend and you're using a few other ones, and you use small amounts of one particular, like 20 grams of pea protein. Yeah, it may not be the best. Right. Right. So it... You know, equal blends tend to complement each other.
You know, obviously with plant-based proteins, uh, what you hear out there and what you see in the sources is deficiencies in lysine and methionine. Uh, so they can complement each other. You know, add beans and rice together. Um, that tends to be a higher quality, uh, protein. And you know, there's these classes of proteins, you know, PDCAAS scores, protein digestibility corrected amino acid scores, are done to quantify the, uh, the quality of the protein source.
So you know, soy, you're probably pushing around .7, and that ranges from like 0 to 1, the PDCAAS score. Probably at .7, maybe a little bit [00:14:00] above. You get into the animal-based proteins, they, like I said, they tend to have higher essential amino acid compositions. You're gonna get PDCAAS scores up to like .9, 1, around there.
For example, egg protein isolate or whey proteins. Uh, whey protein is the most, uh, consumed protein for, in sports nutrition, uh, markets. Um, so, so going back to that question, you know, is 30 grams of protein enough? Well- You know, enough in the sense do- does it, does it allow your skeletal muscle to recover, regenerate?
Uh, does it allow, particularly skeletal muscle, and that's why I, I, I'm saying skeletal muscle because when you think about it, it's the most massive, we could call it an organ, the most massive organ of your body. It's in fact linked directly to your endocrine system. So it, it produces, you exercise, you contract your muscle, you do some resistance training.
Uh, we now know that there, there are these type of cytokines out there, we call them [00:15:00] myokines or exokines, and they travel throughout the body, go to all to different organs, target tissues, and have positive effects. Um, so, so really, uh, what we know is that, um, in younger individuals, from a skeletal muscle perspective, um, and I say this again not to beat a dead horse but, you know, if your skeletal muscle is compromised, particularly we see this in aging, uh, you tend to lose your quality of life.
Quality of life is reduced. Your activities of daily living are reduced. Your mobility is reduced, uh, so you're not as mobile. You, you can't move around as efficiently. You know, daily tasks become very hard. And that compounds onto all the other kind of comorbidities that come along with that, like cardiovascular disease, um, even, uh, certain cancers or obesity.
Uh, these type of things all kind of float around [00:16:00] the unactive or inactive muscle, um, uh, lifestyle behavior. So maintaining skeletal muscle mass and its function particularly is, is key 'cause your muscle has, you know, it has organelles in there such as mitochondria. This is the powerhouse of your cells that produce your energy currency, ATP.
All right, so, so if we keep that all framework in mind, you know, it's 30 grams of protein I- is this, is this sufficient? Well, let's, let's see. Younger adults, uh, what we know from a skeletal muscle perspective, and a lot of the, a lot of these early studies, um, I like to always cite, uh, Daniel Moore's, um, 2015 study on protein ingestion in younger versus older adults and their, uh, muscle protein synthetic response.
Uh, it's a really nice figure in that paper. Um, and what you see is that in younger adults, roughly if you were to say protein dose per [00:17:00] meal, and if you did a little bit of math right here, you took your body weight in pounds, convert it to kilograms, divide it by 2.2, it shows that the muscle protein synthetic rate maximizes roughly around 0.24 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per meal.
So what does that mean? If you took your body weight and you, uh, divide it by 2.2, you got kilogram body weight, and you multiply that by 0.24, roughly, you know, some upper and lower limits, but z- on average 0.24, that's how much protein you should consume at every meal in order to robustly stimulate your muscle pr- protein synthetic rate.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And- So 220-pound mammal, 100kg's, you're looking at, like, 24 grams per meal, right? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And keep in mind, these, this study was done in high-quality proteins. So we're looking at whey proteins, egg proteins. Um, not [00:18:00] really much on that, that type of method, that analysis, not much strictly on plant-based proteins.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Right? So we gotta keep that mind. There's still gaps in the literature on this. But what we know from a high-quality protein, roughly, yeah, 24, 25 grams of, say, a WPI, whey, whey protein isolate, in younger individuals is gonna maximize their MPS rate. And keep this in mind. These studies are particularly, they're consuming this protein particular on an empty stomach.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Right? Usually arrive in the lab fasted, all that kind of stuff. Exactly, exactly. Uh, the, the absorption, digestion and absorption kinetics change when you include it into a mixed meal. That's some of the research that I've done, uh, that we could get into. So if we were, if we were to really have a control on this question, really control it as a study, we could say that 30 grams of a high-quality protein taken on an empty stomach in younger individuals is pretty [00:19:00] much gonna maximize their muscle protein synthetic rate.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: And if you maximize your MPS rate at every single meal, then your muscle mass is being maintained. And in the case if you're lifting weights or resistance training or doing some sort of combination of aerobic training with resistance training, you can gain muscle mass So, so that's the first part. So 30 grams with all that controlled, yes.
Yes, sufficient. Now, the second part, 30 grams of protein in, say, somebody that's 65, 70 years old Hasn't lifted weights since they were having... hasn't exercised since they were 17. Uh, doesn't really, um, live a healthy lifestyle as far as nutrition, eating a lot of, you know, perhaps, uh, high saturated fat diet, um, processed foods, [00:20:00] going out to fast food, eating regularly, um, not exercising- They may have orange fingers from Cheeto dust on their hands.
Yeah, got the, got the Cheeto dust on the fingers every single day. Okay, let's, let's talk about this group and, and, and advancing in age. You know, we like, we, we typically say, you know, sarcopenia, um, this medical term sarco, uh, meaning less flesh, Greek for lu- uh, or for flesh, uh, penia, lack of. Uh, so the dramatic or, or the til- de- deleterious reduction in lean body mass, particularly muscle mass, we...
There's some definitions behind that criteria, uh, to def- to diagnose somebody with sarcopenia, which is typically hand grip strength, um, uh, mobility such as like, um, like a stand up to go test, how fast they can walk. Um, and also looking at lean body mass typically nowadays through DEXA scanning, looking at appendicular muscle mass particularly.
[00:21:00] Um, you know, when someone falls b- below these certain criteria, we say they're sarcopenic. Uh, so individuals in that kind of swim lane, is 30 grams of protein enough? Uh, again, animal-based proteins are gonna stimulate MPS a little bit better than plant-based proteins, unless you modify the plant-based proteins.
Um, individuals that are living this type of lifestyle that are older, they're experiencing something that is just a part of being a human, part of the aging process, and we call this anabolic resistance. So th- particularly the skeletal muscle becomes resistant to the anabolic effects of dietary protein and amino acids.
So that means your skeletal muscle takes up the nutrients such as glucose. It's the largest site for glucose disposal, your blood sugar disposal. So if your skeletal muscle is resistant to taking up [00:22:00] nutrients such as glucose, that's type 2 diabetes. Um, if it becomes resistant as well, it's not taking up, uh, amino acids, or when it does take up the amino acids, those amino acids are just not, um, triggering the signal for your muscles to grow.
So you're not getting, uh, say, enhanced phosphorylation or stimulation of mTORC, the mammalian target of rapamycin complex 1, you know, a master growth controller pathway. That has to be activated- Uh, in order for muscle protein synthesis to be stimulated, uh, to grow. So when I say muscle protein synthesis, I'm saying muscle growth rate, how fast the muscle's growing.
Your skeletal muscle's always in a constant state of turnover. It's always building and breaking down throughout the day. The breakdown rate is kind of more less robust, more like this, whereas the stimulation rate can be, uh, more profound. Um, so someone that's older age, uh, [00:23:00] advancing in age that has that sort of swim lane criteria I just described, is 30 grams of protein enough?
Perhaps not. It perhaps may not be enough. It perhaps will stimulate MPS, but not robustly. And what we also know is as we age, typic- particularly in older age, um, and this is some data that I've looked at, you know, above s- say 55, 60, 65 years old, um, people tend to eat their meals as far as the amount of protein per meal, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, tend to consume their meals in a skewed pattern.
All right? Meaning that they consume less protein at breakfast, a little bit more at lunch, and a whopping dose at dinner. Okay I think there's an old, uh, Paddon-Jones study that looked at that, correct? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Um, and you know, [00:24:00] a, a paper that we published, this is a few years back, it was a perspective paper for the American So- Society for Nutrition, um, ASN Journal of Current Developments, or I don't know if it was Current Developments in Nutrition.
It wasn't Current Developments, Advance, I can't remember. It was s- I can't remember, but it was a ASN journal. You, you, you, you tend to forget the journals sometimes. Oh, yeah. They, they all have very similar names at times too. You get into the weeds on that, yeah. Um, so we, we put together a illustration, a figure, and we showed, we took the Dan Moore data, that 2015 data, which showed that younger individuals, you know, max out at about 0.24 grams of protein per kg of body weight per mil.
That maxes out their MPS rate. And in that 2015 paper, when you look at the older participant data, there's a rightward shift in the [00:25:00] MPS respon- or in the dose response, meaning that they had to consume more protein to get the same robust stimulation at the MPS like the younger individuals, and that number came out to be 0.4 grams on average of protein per kilogram body weight per mil.
So when you looked at- How much protein needed to be consumed by younger individuals and older individuals. Older individuals have to consume more protein in order to get the, the robust stimulation of MPS compared to the younger individuals, and this is due to this term that we call anabolic resistance So is 30 grams of protein for older individual, uh, gonna be sufficient?
If it's plant-based, strict p- plant-based, like wheat protein isolate, for example, no, it's not. Uh, Stefan Gorissen showed a lot of that data in his dissertation out of Maastricht University, um, where he showed that, [00:26:00] um, in a wheat protein isolate, uh, feeding, uh, study, uh, FSR, fractional synthetic rate, MPS study, what he showed was that when you compared wheat protein isolate, 30 grams of protein ver- wheat protein isolate versus 30 grams of micellar casein, a milk protein, a high-quality protein, and you looked at the MPS rate, um, the, the 30 grams of wheat protein isolate did not outdo, wasn't better, didn't stimulate MPS as much as the 30 grams of micellar casein, and this was in older adults.
Now, if you dose the whey, the wheat protein isolate up to 60 grams, 60 grams was equivalent to 30 grams of micellar casein. Hmm. So 60 grams of wheat isolate on an MPS was equal to 30 grams. So what that tells you is that if you're gonna eat, if you're gonna take a supplement, like a 30 gram, [00:27:00] for example, wheat protein isolate, you really need to double it up.
If it's 30 grams, you need to take 60 to get the same effects, uh, in, if you're older individual. Now, so that's, these numbers fluctuate a little bit, but that's what we know. That's what we know about that that, that particular scenario right there. That was a really good question. Yeah. No, that's great. Um, a quick side note, what do you think of the Jorn Tromblin study that used 100 grams of protein- Yeah
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: talking about Maastricht from- That's, yeah, that- ... over there That's an- It published in Cell too, so it wasn't, like, published in some low-level journal from some just low-level lab or anything either. Right. No, Jorn, uh, I had a chance to actually, um, collaborate with Jorn. He came by McMaster, I don't know, for a semester or two- Yeah, I heard that
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: um, when I was there. So great guy. Um, I really like that study. You know, 100 grams of protein, looking at MPS over 12 hours. Um, you s- you s- What a pain in the butt to do too. Oh, man. [00:28:00] Yeah, the, those type of studies, you know, you have to get the participant in the room, and you're there with them all day long.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: You're looking at, what, probably a 16-hour day probably, would you say? Oh, yeah. It, it's, it's, it's, it's brutal. Brutal. It's brutal. Luckily, a lot of my stuff I did during my, uh, postdoc, uh, at McMaster with Stu Phillips, you know, six hours in the room, about six, seven. That's long. That's long. Yeah. I would tell the participant, "Bring, bring your computer.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Bring something to read- ... 'cause we're gonna, we're gonna have a lot of conversations today." Yeah. Um, but yeah, Jorn's study, that's a really, uh, well-done study. Um, and it shows that MPS, it really kind of... I don't wanna say it, it, it debunks anything, but it's really a, a, um, a follow-up to what we know about MPS as far as a, uh, as far as the, um, how, how long MPS is [00:29:00] stimulated throughout the day.
You know, this refractory period had, was spoken about earlier on that, well, you know, I think this was, um, Phil Atherton's work where, you know, they, they would dose people to stimulate their MPS rate. And then if they dosed them, like gave them hyperaminoacidemia, say through an infusion, um, you don't really see any change in MPS across that.
I mean, but these are screenshot type of analyses, you know. When you l- when you talk about muscle protein synthesis, you really have to talk about, uh, the unit behind that, which is percent per hour. That's like an acute study, uh, an acute MPS study where you're looking at between, you know, usually like five, maybe six-hour timeframe, or, uh, integrated MPS studies.
Those are the studies that I tend to do, was integrated, and that will allow you to look at MPS rates over days. Um, and so Jorn, they [00:30:00] looked at MPS rate over, I believe it was 12 hours, and dosed them at 100 grams, and definitely spiked MPS, but the interesting thing about that data is that it protracted the MPS rate.
It made it s- That stayed... I was shocked that it stayed elevated that long. Yeah. I would've not predicted that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you would think, like I, I was saying there, you would think that this refractory period, MPS gets stimulated, it comes back down, it takes a little bit, uh, time for things to kinda get washed out in the cell, and then to re-up the stimulation rate.
But that's, uh, our body doesn't work like that. It's very efficient at using the protein that you consume. You get a little bit of oxidation in the beginning, but then you get a ton of incorporation, uh, meaning the amino acids are getting incorporated into tissue, into lean body mass particularly. Um, and so that was a really nice study to [00:31:00] demonstrate that, uh, to demonstrate that the timing of nutrition, protein nutrition- I- i- there's a, there's a little bit of a, a question.
How do you need... Can you just consume all your protein just in the morning time and get it? Well, I, I think there's more to it than, than that, but it really does kind of throw a wrench in there that, you know, um, taking these larger doses of protein can maintain MPS rates across the day. So I- more follow-ups need to be done with that.
You know, how about when you add in, you know, physical activity, and you add in, say, uh, sports or, you know, lifting weights, you know, how's that change on the timing? You know, we... These are some things that we have to kind of look at i- in more controlled studies. But the, the message from Jorn's paper is that, that your body is very efficient at [00:32:00] using amino acids that you consume, protein that you consume, um, and, uh, throughout the whole daytime.
So that kind of, that kind of makes me think about, um, Rob Morton's, uh, meta-analysis, meta-regression paper that was published in 2017. Um, uh, and what they... That, that paper looked at, at that time looked at all of the controlled studies done, um, when people were lifting weights and on a protein supplement.
They looked at all these studies and did a meta-analysis, and the analysis particular was called biphasic regression, where on the Y-axis you have, say, changes, uh, delta changes in lean mass, fat-free mass. On the, uh, X-axis, you have protein dose, from- Mm ... zero all the way up to, like, three, four, you know, dose on the X-axis.
And when they, [00:33:00] uh, plotted these data in this type of ba- biphasic regression analysis, um, when they plotted the data, what you see is that there's a steady increase in incr- in positive changes, increases in lean mass to a point, and then it plateaus. And where that point is, if you extrapolate down to the X-axis, you can see what the protein dose was, and that special number came out to be 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day And there were some intervals, confidence intervals, upper and lower boundaries.
Upper boundaries are around two, 2.1. All right? So what this means is from these highly controlled studies, training studies with feeding most of it is whey protein, a lot of it's whey protein feeding supplementation studies that were done. Um, what it indicates is that [00:34:00] your lean body mass, or the amount of protein needed to maintain or increase lean body mass fits within a, a specific range.
Uh, and this is, you know, 1.6 is the average. You know, if you're lifting weights, uh, heavy, maybe up to 2.1, 2, 2.2, you start getting way out here into the three grammars, the four grams. Perhaps you don't, you don't see at least, uh, any improvement. It's like, uh, no improvements in lean mass, if you will. So taking in Jorn's data on this 100 gram bolus, um, and I believe that's what it was, it was a, a bolus- Yeah
over 12 hours. You get this, uh, heightened or protracted MPS rate over 12 hours. It still kind of falls within this meta-analysis, you know, on average 1.6 grams of protein per kg body weight per day is sufficient for increasing lean mass to a point, maybe up to 2, 2.2. Yeah. [00:35:00] Yeah. And if you translate that to English, I would say, what, probably .7 grams per pound of body weight, maybe up to the gram per pound of body weight if you wanna go really on the high end.
Yeah, yeah. That's about right. Yeah. And I think some of those studies too were also potentially hypocaloric, so I think some of them were kind of a... I'd have to go back and check, but I think there has been studies done where you slash people's calories overnight, and we have seen that the, you know, .7 grams per pound of body weight versus .35 is beneficial for protecting lean mass in a caloric deficit too.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So it kind of covers a lot of scenarios both for people looking to get leaner and also to try to add more muscle mass. Yeah. That's a really good point. Um, I, I hope I don't butcher the name, but Vayan, um, there's a s- there's a formula out there, uh, s- You know, I, I can say the name. I, I guess it's Nutricia, a European supplement company.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Um, and they [00:36:00] are, they do a really good job making a whey, a leucine-enriched whey protein supplement. Typically, it's around 20 grams of protein, maybe a little bit more, um, where they add in extra leucine to this. Um, in a scoping review that, uh, we published in Archives of Gerontology and Geriatrics, um, their Plus journal, um, we looked at all of the studies that examine whey protein, uh, leucine-enriched whey protein with, uh, vitamin D3 added to it on body composition, uh, strength and physical function in people with s- di- that were diagnosed with sarcopenia And, uh, that, this formula came out in a lot of the studies.
Uh, Bauer, uh, 2015 study was really the first one published on this type of formula in sarcopenic individuals, and showed improvements in physical function and lean body mass. Um, Verayan, uh, as well, sh- uh, p- [00:37:00] showed that people that were on a hypocaloric diet when they were consuming this product, um, tend to help them maintain, uh, lean mass as well.
So, so I, I guess that kind of segues us into the conversation a little bit about, uh, Luvate. Yeah. Yeah, tell us about- Yeah ... Luvate, and tell us about, uh, leucine. And also, you know, you mentioned you did some work with, with Stu Phillips in his lab too. Yep. So a side note- Yes ... is that these tracer or, you know, isotope studies, there's only a handful of labs in the world that are, are, are doing this.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And so my pet peeve is whenever you hear people online about, "Oh, well, this study, they didn't do this and they didn't do that," it's like, you know, like the Trewin study. Like, okay, so yeah, it would be great to look for longer than 12 hours, but w- uh, how are you physically even gonna do those types of studies?
So I think people don't have even any background what goes into the time, the effort, the [00:38:00] expense, the recruitment, all that kind of stuff to, to do a lot of these, these studies. It's more complicated than people realize, and by doing one thing, you kind of opt to not be able to do another thing by virtue of just g- getting the study done.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Yeah. Yeah, I, I tell this to our marketing people almost on a weekly basis. They, they say, "Well, we want to say this, and we want to say this claim about muscle protein synthesis," and, and, you know, and, and they're like, "We need to run a study." And I, I say, "Okay. Well, if you could pay for it, we can run the study."
I- Yeah, yeah ... context. And they're like, "Well, can we have it done in, like, a month?" No. Doesn't work like that. Yeah. You're talking about maybe a year minimum. So- A year is fast ... and that's fast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's time intensive. I mean, that's why not a lot of people do it. And, you know, a lot of these studies are done in university settings- And, you know, as a professor, you [00:39:00] got...
Y- you're teaching classes, and then you're having to handle different projects from students, and then also you have your service with the university. And you have to really be set up like a McMaster, like a Stu Phillips group, or like a Luke Van Loon. You have to have technicians in the lab. Yeah. You know, you have to have a full-on program dedicated where the university's supporting this, and they're allowing you to work with typically master's students, doctoral students, and this is their dissertation.
You know, this is all they're working on. S- that- that's how I was. Yeah, yeah. This is all you do Monday through Friday, and a lot of times on Saturday and Sundays. Yeah, a lot of times weekends too. Yeah. Yeah. So it, it's... it, it is, um, it's, it's, uh, not many places do it, uh, but, you know, there's, you know, the work's been...
a lot of work has been done. We have a lot of good insight on what's happening. Um, so yeah, a little... if, if you wanna talk a little bit about, [00:40:00] um- You know, uh, leucine, let's start with leucine and then we can get into, um, uh, LuVate and, and working and- Yeah, yeah ... Master and, and sort of what I'm doing now. Um, so leucine, you know, has been studied.
It was first identified in the 1970s as this branched-chain amino acids. A lot of people probably listening here are fam- familiar with BCAAs. Yeah. Which really started getting marketed in sports nutrition in the '90s. Um, you know, out of the BCAAs, uh, which is leucine, isoleucine, and valine, um, leucine was really identified in the '70s, uh, particularly in in vitro animal studies, rodent studies, uh, to stimulate or to, um, phosphorylate, uh, mTORC1, which is mammalian target of rapamycin complex one.
Uh, again, this is this protein enzyme, uh, that's in your skeletal muscle, uh, that when [00:41:00] it's phosphorylated, we mean... In biochemistry, when that happens, that means it's activated a lot of times. So it's activated. When mTORC becomes activated, muscle protein synthesis goes up. It in- it's stimulated, it increases.
So there's this signaling piece that happens first, and then you start to see the, uh, um, accretion or muscle accretion, the lay down of contractile proteins, for example. Um, so that research started in the 1970s and it was shown then that in rodent, uh, in rodent models that leucine was triggering the signal, uh, for the skeletal muscle to grow.
Um, but it really wasn't until 2006, um, uh, Christos Katsanos, uh, this is out of Bob Wolfe's group, uh, at the time. I believe this, they were at Texas Galveston. Um, that was the first study published, uh, that showed that leucine drives the [00:42:00] increase in MPS. It, it's the driver. In that particular study, um, since we're on it, and I'll, I'll back up a little bit.
Uh, well, let me back up first and I'll come back to the study, um, the Katsanos, uh, study. Um, leucine was found more recently, uh, about the past decade, 2015. Um, uh, David Sabatini- Mm-hmm ... uh, his group out of MIT, um, identified, uh, the author's last name was Wolfson, uh, identified, um, a particular class of proteins called sestrins.
And these sestrin, this family of proteins, uh, are found in skeletal muscle. And- When, uh, intra-- inside the cell, intracellular levels of leucine reach a certain threshold, certain concentration within the cell, um, what they see is that the MTORC, [00:43:00] uh, s- pathways, the protein signaling pathways for MPS, uh, become activated and stimulated.
And what they see is... What they saw was that leucine, out of all the essential amino acids, leucine was the one that, that interacted with sestrin. Fits into sestrin, into, like, you know, the lock and key. Like, it, it fits into this little pocket on this protein, this, call it a sensor, and it fits within there.
And when it fits within this, it causes a series of reactions with GATOR1, these other proteins, GATOR1, GATOR2. Um, and when sestrin-2 is interacted with leucine, it allows these, these pathways that are initially, they're blocking MPS signaling. They're blocking it when the leucine's not fit in at this high concentration to sestrin.
But when this fits in there, that blocking reaction is, is opened up. It's not blocking anymore. It is [00:44:00] allowing... It's a, it's called a signal cascade, right? This ca- Turning the light switch on. Yeah, you're turning the light- That's an oversimplification, but Yeah, turning the light... Yeah, exactly. Turning the light switch on.
And the more leucine that you include inside the cell, it's like a dimmer on the light. It starts to turn the light brighter and brighter. And so the signal gets lit up by leucine. Leucine interacts with sestrin-2 and allows protein signaling to occur, and that light to really shine bright. And then from there, you start gaining muscle accretion.
So you're g- you're building proteins inside the skeletal muscle. So that's what we, we know about leucine. And if I come back to the Katsanos, uh, study Um, you know, this was 2006 when this was published, and in that particular study, it was a younger individual, a younger group, and a older group. Okay? And they dosed them with [00:45:00] ess- essential amino acids.
It was like six, a little over six grams of essential amino acids. One of the, uh, experimental, uh, study products was enriched to 26% leucine, so it had like 1.7 grams of free-form leucine. And the other group had, I think it was like 41%. Uh, so that's roughly like 2 point... A little over two and a half grams of leucine.
Given to, um, a feeding study with muscle biopsies, uh, given to younger and older individuals. And what they see is that in the young- and this is an acute study, so looking at MPS over several hours. And what they si- they showed in that study was that in the younger individuals, the doses at the 26% or 41%, uh, leucine-enriched essential amino acids stimulated MPS in the younger individuals.
When you looked at the older individual data, it was only the 41% stimulated MPS [00:46:00] statistically. Hm. All right, so that, that just kind of goes back to that whole anabolic resistance piece that we're talking about. So really, that's the first study. That was the first study done in leucine in... Showing that it's leucine that's driving the increase in MPS through all those, those mechanistic underpinnings.
Um, so that was the first one. Uh, and If you, w- w- w- we can, we can s- I, let me talk about this one other study, and then let me get, come back to, um, Lou Vates and working with Stu, and a little bit- Yeah ... of history. Um, so if you fast-forward about, uh, less than 10 years up to two, 2012, uh, a really highly cited paper out of J.
Phys, Journal of Physiology, uh, Tyler Churchward-Venn. His paper was published, and this was a Nestle-funded study. Uh, they did actually two studies, but the first one published in 2012. And, and th- this was really where Stu and I, [00:47:00] uh, I guess, how would you say it? Um, uh, we met, but we didn't know each other.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. 'Cause that was, uh, when Tyler was working in his lab, I think. Is that correct? That's, that's correct. Yeah, yeah. That's correct. And so, so around that time, um, this is a good part to kind of segue my history into Lou Vates and, you know, sort of how I've, uh, come to, to meet you at ISSN, you know? It's all f- it's all connected.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: So, so, um, around that time, 2011 for me, I was... Uh, I started my PhD at the University of Nebraska out of Terry House's lab, Ex Phys lab, really good lab. Uh, it was great to see him actually at ISSN. It's been some time since I've seen him. Yeah. Um- That's one of the OG labs, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Yep, for sure.
You know, uh, so, so I started out at Nebraska and, you know, I was funded, my funding came from GNC. Got some funding from pharmaceuticals. Um, but around the time I [00:48:00] started my PhD in 2010, by the first seme- after the first semester, I had already started, uh, you know, really diving into amino acids and protein, uh, as far as, uh, developing a product.
Um, I always wanted to, to do the science i- in protein metabolism, uh, resistance training, exercise, phys. These are all the things that, you know, I was passionate about beforehand. I was a strength and conditioning coach. I was... Uh, my first job was I was hired by the Cincinnati Reds, and I was the head strength coach for the Dayton Dragons- Hmm
um, before I went back to school. Um, so I had... My master's degree was in sports medicine. I was a strength coach, CSCS, certified strength condition specialist. Um, did that for some time. Uh, by the time I was in, uh, Terry House's lab in Nebraska, we, uh, you know, I was, I was already going down the line. I wanted to develop something and study it.
Uh, and so that's what I ended up doing. And, um, and I'm coming back to the Tyler's, Tyler's [00:49:00] paper. Um, so around the time, you know, being very naive in startup business- ... uh, I started a business. Uh, and, and I, and I'm not gonna throw anybody under the bus, but, um, you know, it's... You really have to partner with the right people in startup.
Oh, yeah. It's such a, it's such a fragile, uh, thing, and if you, if you start off on the wrong foot, meaning, like, if you don't have good partners and you don't really have great cons- consultation, you're gonna spin your tires. Um, and ultimately, long story short, I stayed in Nebraska for three years developing formulas, working with a group of partners that wasn't, um...
It, it drove me out of the lab, to be honest with you. Uh, I left Nebraska- Because of the business on the commercialization side. Um, I always wanted to finish the PhD, which I did. So, uh, you know, after that sort of [00:50:00] startup business venture failed, a- and, and I say failed, but, but also succeeded because it failed that I, I left Nebraska.
I ended up living in Tijuana, Mexico for some time Oh, wow ... for some time That sounds crazy. Yeah, it l- it, it got kind of- It got kind of crazy. It definitely got kind of crazy. Uh, but I was a- I was able to regroup, um, and, uh, was admitted into Clemson University. Was able to transfer hours, still had the leucine-enriched protein essential amino acid research going on.
Got to Clemson, and by probably the second semester, I believe, maybe third, um, I started placing in pitch competitions. Uh, so I placed in my first pit- pitch competition that was hosted by Clemson, uh, it was called Launch Pad South Carolina, and, uh, got some cash, got some money, restarted a- another business.
Uh, and from that point in time is where [00:51:00] I, I was doing my dissertation stuff, I was doing exercise physiology, health promotion programs at Clemson, um, and was able to write a dissertation on that. Um, and around that time is when I reached out to Stu Phillips. I remember I was sitting on a, a, a park bench and, you know, I was just going through...
I'm, I'm doing business stuff and also research stuff at the same time. I'm reading papers, and I come across Tyler's paper, and I'm like, wow, this is exactly what I'm... This is exactly... I'd already collected data, so I had, I had blood data, and this is exactly what I was doing. And I saw that paper published and I was like, "Who, who, who is this?
Whose paper is this?" I said, "Oh, Stu Phillips." I was like, I've got to reach out to him. I've got to at least ask him some questions. I literally emailed him on a park bench and- ... I'd s- say within five minutes he emails me back. So yeah, St- Stu's a great guy. Uh, and I, I think he saw, you know, he was, uh, just in on this, this kind [00:52:00] of research was, which was suboptimal doses of whey protein with added leucine to it.
Um, that's really what Tyler's, uh, tho- those series of papers were. Um, so I reached out to Stu and, uh, ended up, uh, getting, graduated, finished out at Clemson. Um, did my, technically my PhD's in food technology, but I've got the background in exercise physiology. Uh, went up to McMaster- Uh, on a postdoctoral fellowship, uh, that was originally supposed to be two years.
Um, but at the time at Clemson, and like I said, when I had reached out to Stu, uh, about Tyler's paper, I had written a US patent on this formulation, um, that got priority as far as the provisional application, got priority in 2014, um, that I couldn't get claims on, and that's a whole nother story. Mm-hmm. We could talk, we could talk about that.
You know, I was involved with industry at the time. I was actually [00:53:00] trying to put the protein formula, the leucine-enriched protein formula into smaller serving sizes- Mm-hmm ... and that's what triggered me about Tyler's paper. Mm-hmm. And I was going the gummy route at the time. Mm. And, uh, you may have heard of RAP Protein Gummies that was launched by Ferrara Candy Manufacturer.
Um, unofficially I had a lot to do with that. Um- Oh, okay. Yeah. Uno- unofficially, unofficially. Yeah. Long story short, they wrote a patent as well, so, uh, we were butting heads on our patents. I had gotten priority on the provisional, but from my understanding they didn't give us any specific claims. I didn't get it.
Mm-hmm. I don't know if Ferrara got claims. I, I don't think they did. Um, so anyway, it's a blocking patent. Yeah, yeah. From a business standpoint it's good for me. It gives me a timestamp of when I started, had it patented, but that means nobody really can patent this i- in the United States. Maybe you could patent some claims as around the randomized trials, some data, but you can't patent the formula, least that's what the [00:54:00] attorneys have told me over the years.
Yeah. And attorneys get expensive fast. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they do. They, they, they sure do. They're very useful when you need them, but Yeah. They, they... They're a money, uh, uh, sink. They're, they drain our- Especially patent attorneys. Exactly. Exactly. Well, so, you know, uh- That was going on and, um, Stuart offered me a position, I accepted and went there and, uh, took a lot of the information that I had written in the patent, uh, the data, the blood data that I had collected, and, uh, we put it into a grant, um, which was funded by the Canadian Institutes of Healths, uh, for musculoskeletal research.
So that ended up keeping me there at McMaster for an additional two years. So I sti- stayed in my fellowship for four years, um, and had the funding and started running the human clinical trials on these Luvate formulations. Um, and you know, that's, that's really a little bit of the history of how the trademark came [00:55:00] about.
Um, you know, I've, I've had to change the names over the years. Um, right now we're going with Luvate, so leucine and elevated together gives you Luvate. Uh, I also have another, a brand name called Leucy, L-E-U-C-Y. Hmm. That's a registered mark. Um, you know, and so th- that, that's really what happened as far as the history goes on Luvate.
Ended up doing the fellowship at McMaster, running the human clinical trials, um, on leucine enriched, um, smaller doses of protein, whey protein, micellar casein. Um, did some more work, did some work for, uh, Leprino Foods Company. So I, I did the blood work for Ascent, their product now- Yeah ... that you can buy, Ascent.
I did their original research, uh, on that. Um, and so yeah, that, that's really, uh, what happened. The research went on. Uh, I finished up the fellowship, and that was, like, [00:56:00] um, the height of COVID. Came back to the States and, um, was looking for work. You know, it took some time to kinda get the business up to where it's at now.
I was a professor at Adrian College for a few years. Uh, continued doing research collaborations, and now I'm a professor at DePaul University in Chicago Uh, and, uh, really, uh, have, have found a really good partnership, um, and have manufacturing now. So Fit Foods, which is in Canada, uh, they own PVL, uh, and Mutant.
This is like more of your bodybuilder type- Mm-hmm ... of brands. Um, but they've launched, uh, Luvate in their Iso Clear, uh, formula. That's doing really good in, in Canada right now. It's being sold at Popeyes, basically the GNC version of Canada. Um, also it's being sold, right now I'm selling Luvate to a, a startup company called Take Control Science.
Um, [00:57:00] and they're selling to pretty much all the pharmacies here in the US. Um, so it's, it's just starting right now. Sales have just ramped up, uh, and, you know, we're, we're looking for brands. So it's an ingredient right now, uh, that we're, we're, we're putting together an ingredient. You know, we can get really good pricing on the ingredient.
Um, and that's, you know, we're gonna do some direct-to-consumer brands as well. Uh, one of the brands that is gonna launch soon is called Muscle OTC. Um, so yeah. So that's really what, what happened. Uh, we have a lot of, you know, the, the trials that went on, the papers, all that, is really supporting this leucine, uh, leucine dose, leucine-enriched protein or leucine-enriched essential amino acids.
Um, yeah. It, I, I guess this kind of brings us to the, the current study I'm doing right now on GLP-1 users. Yeah. And one quick question on Luvate. So if people are listening or they're in manufacturing or things, it looks [00:58:00] like if I were to guess, and you would know on this- Convenience is still a big thing, and I think, um, size is also probably a big thing.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So in theory, could you get, like, really tiny, like, containers with a fluid that would have luvate and enough amino acids to actually be effective now instead of having, like, a large, you know, 8 or 12 fluid ounces? There's always gonna be kind of the- Yes ... ready to drink market, but that's kind of its, its own animal.
I'm thinking more of just convenient more from, like, the sports supplement side. It's kind of one- Right ... of the benefits you can just kind of sort of, lack of a better word, concentrate it down into much smaller size overall. And that was the whole... That was really the point in doing it for me, going down this route.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: I wanted to know what is the minimum dose of protein needed with leucine or leucine and the essential amino acids, what is the minimal [00:59:00] dose needed to robustly stimulate muscle protein synthesis? That was the question that goes back for me to 2011. How much? Uh, because th- yeah, there is this convenience factor to it.
How can you make less protein act like more protein? Right. You know? Um, and it has a lot of applicability to different, uh, consumer populations because, you know, you're seeing with GLP-1 drugs, I mean, the, the thing about GLP-1, the main points behind that is that it is an appetite controller. It, it's, uh, it is a appetite controller.
That's what these GLP or GIP drugs do. Uh, you don't feel as hungry. So how can you eat less but still get the same effects as if you ate more? All right? And then, you know, from the whole, um, GI loading of food on the stomach, you know, a lot of people are throwing in 40 grams, 50 grams of protein. Not everybody can consume that at one meal.
If you [01:00:00] get into the clinical nutrition aspect, which is something I'm very passionate about, um, uh, in particular why we're doing a GLP-1 study right now, um, is that many people that they're in clinical settings or hospital settings, uh, they just cannot swallow that much food at one time, and you hear about it all the time.
And one of the things that is very difficult, um, especially in, um, uh, critical care situations, is dysphagia. You know? Mm-hmm. Losing the ability to swallow. Can't swallow. Yeah, can't swallow. So what do you do? And I'm starting to see it now that- uh, protein shots are coming out there Yep, yep. Yeah. I still have to critique their formulas, but this is, uh, this would definitely fit within that category, and I, I, I'm, I'm sure you've seen this, but, uh, many people have called this the year of, this year the year of protein.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Oh, yeah. The protein Maxine. Yeah. Yes, yes. And, and, you know, and when you look at the [01:01:00] pricing of protein, whey protein particular, it has been this... I have the stats here somewhere, but it's been- It's crazy Yeah, yeah Especially the past year. It's like, oh, crap It's, it's, it's crazy. I mean, you're looking at, you know, up to, like, over 14, 15, $16 per kilo when you go back six months ago, you're talking about four or $5.
Yeah. So, and that's because, you know, everybody's been talking about protein. I think the, the scientific community out there and industry has, has sort of come to a point to where we're able to... Like, the consumer gets it now. They understand, I need more protein. Um, and then- Coupled with the rising prices because your big companies like your, your Starbucks and your Kelloggs, everybody, they bought up so many, they bought up all the whey protein.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Yeah. And some places you can't even get in for two years. They're sold out for two years. Yeah. So, so, you know, a lot of brands, um, particular this is why, [01:02:00] uh, we decided to go down the ingredient route initially instead of direct to consumer, uh, with, with direct branding with a pro- product, which we're still gonna do, but to get us started, uh, in ingredient, uh, this really helps out brands.
So we can still say that, get the same claims that are published in the literature, published in our, our studies we, we put out there for Luveit. Um, we can still get the same benefits, but we could cut down the serving size by maybe 50%, you know? And we can save, we can save their margin. We can take their margins back to how it was before this, uh, this spike in price.
So we could save the companies, uh, on their margin, and we can cut back on the amount of protein needed in the formula. And now since this is being accepted by the consumer, we can fit it into smaller serving size, different delivery systems. Y- you're seeing gummies come out there. I really hope, [01:03:00] um, you know, I'm talking with a gummy manufacturer now, I hope we can see more of these gummy type products come out or shot style products or, or small RTDs, uh, or stick packs.
We're working with, um, some companies n- right now on stick packs. Um, so yeah, it, it, it really fits the consumer. It helps the consumer, uh, um, several aspects. It helps them not have to take in a large dose of protein all at once. It could be light and refreshing. Uh, we've made it... Uh, we've also made the leucine with essential amino acids without added protein and to, it tastes like almost like you're drinking like a juice.
That's how IsoClear is kind of selling their clear protein right now. Yeah. Juice, light and refreshing. You can add a little- BAs in general taste bad. Like I was telling you, I think it's you or David at ISSN, I bought some years ago- And I was just playing around with it, and I thought, "I might try to use it in some products for formulation."
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And I, I always... I'm an idiot, so I'll buy the raws and just try the raws by themselves just [01:04:00] to see how heinous some of the, the stuff is to kinda give you an idea of what you're dealing with. And some are not too bad. Like, creatine's not too bad. Choline's not too bad. But some of them, like the essential amino acids, I opened them.
I'm like, "These smell like cat piss." Right. And then I'm like, "Well, I'll just throw some dry scoop in my mouth," and I'm over my kitchen sink. And as you know, they, they just do not mix well in and of themselves, and so I'm coughing, like white dust all over my kitchen. Now I'm inhaling the dust through my nose.
The taste is God awful, and I'm like, "This is horrible. I'm not doing shit with any of these." Yes. Yeah. And, you know, companies... And I think what we've done a really good job at is we work with some of the best flavor houses. Like, we're working with OSF, um, as our flavor house. We work with Fit Foods. Um, and we really are using the best flavor systems out there, um, the safest flavor systems.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Um, we, we try to go as much [01:05:00] natural as possible. And manufacturing's come a long way over the- Oh, yeah ... just the past decade. It's come a long, long way. Huge. So you could get a really good supple tasting amino acid supplement if done correctly. Um, right now, it's... There's, there's not many companies doing what we're doing.
There are a few and, you know, I like to hold our flag high and say, you know, "Well, what our differentiating factor is that we're using top ingredients. We're, we're making it taste good safely, and we're, we're running human clinical trials on all of our SKUs." That's our, that's our thing. Um, I have a family-owned medical clinic in North Carolina.
It's been there for almost 40 years. It's called White Bone Medical Associates. Um, and it's, it's located in the southeast corner of North Carolina. It's, it's one of the largest privately owned, uh, medical clinics in North Carolina. And, uh, we have over 2,500 active patients. Um, for the [01:06:00] past 15 years, we've been doing studies for Novo Nordisk on their- Oh, yeah
diabetes drugs. And so, uh, what, what I'm doing now is really is I'm contract- I'm just going to my, my clinic. It helps me avoid a lot of red tape with the university. I go through IRB still. Yep. Um, I, you know, I have everything third-party tested, so, you know, I disclose any conflict of interest. But, uh, what's really helping us i- in developing products that c- the consumer can trust is these clinical trials, and I think that's what the consumer is asking for now.
They, they b- they can read the label. Now they wanna see the validity behind it. You know, is this product being studied? Is this original research? Is this done in-house? Or are they just citing a paper from 10 years ago that was done in older women and then they're selling it to athletes? You know, these are the things that we want as a company, we wanna make sure that we, we draw a line in the sand.
Uh, we [01:07:00] try to make it specific to who we're selling to. Um, and that's, you know, that's what we're doing with this GLP-1 study right now Yeah, and it, before we get into that, it seems like the market is very bifurcated now. Like, I've seen more scrutiny, I think in a good way, of supplement companies, of asking, you know, "Where is your research?
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Where is this done on human trials?" Like, what's actually... Do I know what's actually in the product is in the product? And- Mm-hmm ... I think there's been a lot of beneficial things in that area for sure. And then on the flip side, we've got, uh, buddies selling peptides out of the back of their van, and people just sticking them in themselves with, like, no thought whatsoever.
So it, it's just- Right ... my head sometimes feels like it's gonna explode because it's just so... And I've had this happen from consults from the same person who is berating me about creatine, and they're like, "Oh yeah, I bought some peptides from this guy and, you know, I, I wasn't really sure how much to mix it, so I just [01:08:00] mixed it wrong and just shot it in my knee 'cause my knee hurts."
And I'm like- Oh, my gosh ... what the... What world do we live in? You know, this- We're, we're in this peptide wave. Uh, GLP's at the top and, but also you have peptides that are supposed to, uh, enhance testosterone. You have peptides that- They do everything ... do e- every single thing. And they're coming from unvetted manufacturers- Yep
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: like you said, being sold by Joe Schmo out there out of their truck. And- Yeah. ... i- it's, it, it's, it's like the Wild West. It's like the Wild West. The snake oil is, is here. Um, a- and that, that's the thing with, with these peptides. And, you know, it, it's been, it's being marketed. You know, when you think of a peptide, a peptide is a amino, a bond that bonds amino acids together.
Yep. You know, di- and tripeptides have been around forever, you know? Uh, uh, but now we're able to look at all the different kinds of, like, non-proteogenic [01:09:00] amino, amino acids and through, um, through, you know, pharmacological methods, bind these things together and, and call them peptides. Um, so it's... That, that is gonna, I, I say, over the next 10 to 20 years, that's a wide open field of study that's gonna be specific to certain categories.
I mean, does this, what does this peptide do to your, to your joints? Or- Yeah ... what does it do to your testosterone levels or your androgens? And what does it do to, oh, a variety of things? I mean, I, one peptide that really comes out in mind right now that, um, that I, I think is, has the beginnings of some good legit data is di-leucine.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah, some very interesting studies that have been published on that. Yeah, yeah. And that's just a leucine bound to a leucine. It's a... I mean, that happens naturally occurring in protein anyway. Um, that's one. Um, you know, the MPS data, when you compare a lot of these, [01:10:00] like HMB or di-leucine and you compare it to leucine- There's really not- Yeah.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Yeah ... there's really nothing much. I mean, if you look back at some of, uh, you know, some of the Mc- McMaster studies on HMB versus leucine, you look at the MPS rates, it appears that leucine still stimulates MPS to a higher extent. Yeah. But HMB does too. Maybe there's some data on muscle protein breakdown on the HMB.
Di-leucine, you know, there's some ear- there's really early studies, some better than others, but the MPS rates tend to be stimulated. Uh, but it really all comes back to leucine. I mean, HMB is a derivative of leucine. Yeah. You know, it all, it all comes back- Is what? Second downstream, is that right? Mm-hmm, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It gets broken down to several constituents of, um, really leucine is... We- we- s- I say leucine's a food. I mean, it's, it's naturally occurring. Um, and, you know, all, [01:11:00] all these other kind of MPS promoters, really it all comes back to leucine. I mean, our, I- I feel like our human body figured this out through the process many, many millennia ago.
Oh, yeah. Use leucine. I- it's just, uh, it does the trick. So, um- Yeah. Yeah. And tell us about the GLP study, 'cause I know we're talking- Yeah ... I was talking to DC at ISSN too, is that with some clients I have or consults I've done with GLPs, their protein intake is just so low. And like you said, I get it, like, "Well, I can't eat six ounces of chicken breast in the morning.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I'm not even hungry yet." It's just, just... So we go down the list of, okay, maybe you can use a protein supplement, and even in some cases, let's go to a thinner protein supplement, like some of the clear proteins, whey protein isolates, et cetera. And sometimes just volume of fluid is sometimes an, an issue, so there's only so concentrated you can make it.
And then soon we're down to, okay, let's get 6 to 15 grams of essential amino acids at once that just basically mixes [01:12:00] into water just to try to get something in so that you don't have this massive loss of just muscle- Yeah ... mass due to low protein. Yeah. Well, all right, so let's, let's start on this GLP topic, and let me start first with, um, what do we know about a LuVate-style, uh, l- what do we know about a s- leucine-enriched essential amino acid blend on muscle protein synthesis?
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: All right, so Ajinomoto, a huge manufacturer that makes amino acids out there, um, they have a ingredient called L40 that stands for leucine-enriched 40%. Um, there's another group out there, Amino 9, that makes a amino acid, uh, leucine-enriched amino acid supplement, uh, ingredient as well. And there's us, Luvate.
Um, so the MPS data, some MPSA has been done on just a small volume of leucine-enriched essential amino acids, meaning at about three [01:13:00] grams, roughly about three grams. You know, we really have dialed in the leucine, uh, to a dose that not only is effective, but it's palatable like you said. Yeah. I mean, it tastes like cat piss, right?
Yeah. So, so we dial it... A lot of my, my research has been done at 1.5 grams of free form leucine. Mm. Crystalline leucine, 1.5. Now, there's some data showing you could even go a little bit lower than that. But 1.5 s- tends to be, uh, enough for across the different body sizes to robustly stimulate the signal, the protein signaling.
So, um, what we do know from, uh, Ajinomoto is a study was done that looked... It was in older females as well, so you have to keep that in mind, um, that it stimulated MPS acutely over the several hours, three, four, five hours or so. I have to look back at the study. But it did stimulate [01:14:00] MPS, um, as if they consumed a high dose of protein.
I believe it was, uh, 25 grams of whey protein. I, I hate if I get that wrong, but I think it's about that much. It's gonna be close. Yeah, pretty close. A whopping dose, just a whopping dose, uh, again, in older females, is stimulated. So that, that, that's proof of concept right there that, you know, these doses, even without protein, can stimulate MPS for several hours Um, and, uh, what, what we're doing right now with our GLP-1 study, and I believe I, I gave it to you the link of the registered- Yeah
clinical trial so you, so the listeners here or viewers can go and check out the trial and look at the protocol themselves. Um, you know, leading up to that, uh, myself and several, uh, students of mine that are really good, and I, I, I'm gonna give them a shout-out, Ader, Asaria, Jack Mitchell, Jack Lee, and Matthew Lees out of-- Matthew [01:15:00] Lees is in Stu Phillips lab at McMaster currently as a post-doc.
Um, we're writing a scoping review paper on all the, all the studies in GLP-1 patients that h- that have been done, human clinical trials, registered human clinical trials that have been done, and particularly when a GLP-1 drug is taken with exercise or- Mm ... some sort of exercise plus nutritional intervention, and that's key.
Yeah, yeah. That is really key. And, uh, you know, I can share the paper. We're still writing it, so I'm not gonna tell too much about it. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but, you know, we've ran a, a systematic search, uh, following PRISMA guidelines. So we, we did a risk of bias analysis on our studies. We looked at close to 500, uh, publications out there.
We've whittled it down to 17 papers that are in the swim lane of they're taking a GLP-1 drug. They are also doing some sort of exercise intervention. They may also have a, a nutritional intervention, [01:16:00] uh, on top of that. What these studies are showing is that when on GLP-1- And exercise. That is the golden ticket.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Mm. That is the ticket. It's not the GLP... Uh, um, that is the ticket on maintaining lean mass, particularly muscle mass, and physical function, and also all the benefits that come with, around with that. There's, uh, s- there's some studies on bone mineral, uh, content that's improving when you do this. We know this already that you, you do resistance training or some sort of, uh, a circuit training, right?
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: You're, you're stimulating your bones to grow. Um, also blood work is looking great when you do exercise. I mean, the exercise is driving a lot of these improvements. The GLP-1 drug is, is suppressing the appetite. Yes. That's what it's doing. Uh, so we're, we're writing this paper right now, and we're just seeing when GLP-1 is done with exercise, these people tend to maintain their lean mass better.[01:17:00]
You have to remember that people that are on GLP-1 drugs, a vast majority, a large chunk of these people come off of the drug, and when they come off of the drug, they put the weight back on within a year. Yeah. There's been a f- a couple studies have shown that actually now. Yeah. So we have the, we have actual data on that.
Yeah. Yeah. It, it's, it's very common. Um, so to be on a GLP-1 drug and really to maximize the effects, uh, the motivation has to be there. There has to be a lifestyle behavioral modification. Um, it, it really comes down to that. You really can't beat exercise. I mean, you, you really have to understand that exercise is probably the best, one of the best drugs out there, if you wanna call it that- For sure
uh, for, for maintaining your health across a lifespan. And this is widely known. Um, so, so people on GLP-1 drugs, they're going... They're not gonna eat a lot. Now, some [01:18:00] studies that have recently been published on GLP-1, uh, and looking at outcome measures such as, uh, good proxies for muscle mass, um, are showing that, you know, the individual's losing lean body mass, but remember, your lean body mass is not just skeletal muscle.
It's your organs. It's your connective tissue. It's your water that you hold. You know, this is all lean body mass. A large chunk of that's muscle mass. What we're seeing is that the body weight to lean mass ratios are not as affected as- As you would think. The general rule of thumb is that, you know, within the first six months, someone on a GLP-1 drug's gonna lose roughly 25% of their lean body mass.
Okay? But then when you kinda, kinda try to tweeze, uh, out the muscle mass part of that, it's not as bad, it's not as pronounced, but it's still there. It is still there. And if a person doesn't address that, they will [01:19:00] continue to lose muscle mass, and that leads to age-related detrimental loss of, um, muscle mass across the age, or age-related loss of muscle mass, sarcopenia.
You know? Uh, so, so these... this is things that someone on the GLP-1 drug needs to be cognizant about, because it's not only people that are overweight or obese that are on the drug. You're seeing it now, you're seeing people like Venus, uh, Williams. Yeah. Uh, you're seeing people out there that are, I mean, that are, in particular females, that are not really in bad shape, but they're on the drug anyway Yeah, so I wanna lose 10 pounds.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I just go take a GLP-1, you know? Yeah. Eh, it's like a common thing to do now. Yeah, I'm just not gonna eat. Yeah, so a- a- that's, that is a concern. Um, and, and so what we're doing right now in this GLP-1 study, um, we want to address this as, I would say, as a proof of concept on the, our Luvate formula, which is, uh, the [01:20:00] leucine-enriched essential amino acids.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: And I haven't said this yet, but particularly we also enrich it up to, uh, 800 IUs of vitamin D3. Hmm. Now, we know that vitamin D3 is, it's a fat-soluble vi- vitamin. You need to consume it at a optimal level, otherwise you're gonna run into a lot of problems as far as skin problems. We also now know, actually, it was just published, uh, a few months ago, um, a paper, uh, that was looking at, uh, vitamin D, the amount of vitamin D needed to, uh, promote muscle protein synthesis.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Hmm. And yeah, and th- this just came out. Um, what we do know is that you have vitamin D receptors in the skeletal muscle located on the nucleus and located, uh, on the mitochondria and inside the mitochondria. And we know the mitochondria is the, like, we call it the powerhouse of the cell. It makes your, your adenosine triphosphate, your ATP, your energy currency that [01:21:00] the cell, that's the, that's how, what your cells run on is for energy.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Um, so we do know that, uh, MPS is, is a, is, uh, increased or is promoted when optimal amounts of vitamin D are present in, in the formula. So we've, we put that in, um, and what the vitamin D is doing is it is restoring the, um, the muscle anabolic pathways. It's really restoring these pathways, and particularly what it's doing is, is helping mTORC1 become phosphorylated or activated.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Hmm. It's helping in that process. And what, what this newer study is showing is that, um, it really helps on the initial protein signaling. So they measured MPS rate, like, over several hours. They saw the most pronounced effects on the signaling within the first 60 minutes, the first hour. Hmm. So the vitamin D, uh, this is something we've known, and now I'm, I'm so glad to see that the study, uh, was, was finally published.[01:22:00]
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Um, I'm sorry, it's slipping my mind who, who did the study. Yeah. No, that's all right. I'd have to look it up. It just, it was just published. I think- I like to say that some, uh... Well, we'll get there. But yeah, it, it was just published out. So, um, the Luate formula includes the vitamin D enrichment as well. So in this GLP-1 study that we are currently doing, um, is at our, um, at my medical clinic, and, uh, it's in males and females.
And our- we're doing, it's a tracer study, so we're looking at whole body protein synthesis rates. It's very similar method that the dilucene study was done. Hmm. Um, I'm working with, uh, Daniel Moore of Toronto, um, and David Church out of University of Arkansas. So we're having blood work done, so we're looking at amino acidemia, the amount of amino acids and concentration.
We're looking at lucinemia, the amount of leucine in circulation. Uh, it's a tracer [01:23:00] protocol. Uh, for this particular protocol, we're collecting breath samples, and we're measuring it over, like, a five-hour period. Uh, serial blood draws, serial breath samples. And so we're gonna be able to... The, the, the tracer's gonna come out in the breath.
So this whole, um- method, uh, is that when you consume a product that has protein or a- mi- amino acids essentials, then, uh, some of that gets oxidized, broken down, and then when that oxidation stops, it kind of plateaus off, that's means that the rest of those amino acids are getting incorporated into the skeletal muscle particularly.
So whole body protein synthesis is a great proxy for skeletal muscle, um, protein synthesis, particularly because we're using a leucine tracer, and leucine is pref- it acts preferentially. It likes to be taken up by the skeletal muscle. So, uh, that's our study currently. It's a three-arm study. Uh, we're, we're going head-to-head, [01:24:00] so we're really gonna show...
I- I- we wanna show in GLP-1 users, you know, the potency of this formula. So we're, we're going head-to-head with a positive control. Normally you wouldn't see an industry- You're not using water? Yeah. They usually see something like, yeah, like water or a placebo. Uh, we wanna go head-to-head. Whey protein. Yeah.
We're gonna go against, uh, 24 grams of whey protein concentrate. Oh. Uh, so yeah. So it's a positive. So we know we're gonna get stimulation with that dose. Yeah. We're gonna... We're going head-to-head with Luvate without protein and Luvate at 12 grams of protein versus- Hm ... 24 grams of whey protein. So- Interesting
yeah, really excited to see what those results turn out to be. Yeah. Um, it'll be, uh, one of the first of its, its, its kind out there. So we're really trying to get this out, uh, this year. We've already started data collection, so that's going smoothly. Um, and yeah, we wanna, like I said, Luvate, we wanna be as legitimate to the consumer as possible and show the [01:25:00] consumer, you know, these are the results.
Uh, this is what you're getting, you know? There's no fluff. There's no... We're not citing other people's work to get our claims, you know? These are direct claims that are coming straight from our business. So real excited about that one. Yeah. I'm super excited to see that. And I mean, you could make an argument that even if it comes out equivalent to the protein dose w- per volume, and ease of use, and all the other, you know, benefits, that's- that's still a win in my opinion.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: It's a win. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly, and that's, that's what we're- We're hypothesizing. You know, we've, uh, have worked with a, a great group of researchers on this right now. Very, I say, seasoned people that- Oh, definitely ... understand the protein metabolism, uh, uh, mechanism. So I, I think we're gonna s- show something very, very useful and, um, exciting for the consumer, you know, in GL- taking these GLP-1 drugs.
No, that's great. And a side note, I think it was, was it four years ago now? It was [01:26:00] 2020... Yeah, 2023 I was giving a talk at ISSN, and so we had the little speaker dinner the night before and had some, you had some free beverages at the bar. And I remember standing there have, uh, Dan Moore and, um, David Church were having a discussion about protein and exercise for- Probably like an hour and a half, and then we got s- closed out of the bar 'cause the free bar like shut down.
And so we got kicked out of there, and they were, they were still going back to the hotel, looking up studies on their phone, like arguing back and forth about whether the exercise or protein or total amount and, and again, like they agreed on 95% of the, the things they were, were talking about. But it was pretty fun to watch and just see that even experts in their field who have done those studies multiple times, they don't always agree on 100% of everything.
There's always the interpretation and someone has read one study, maybe the other person didn't, they hadn't seen it. And again, it was a very civil, you know, [01:27:00] conversation. Obviously, they know each other. But it was fun to, to watch them go back and forth for, for hours on end of like a, a nerd battle. Yeah.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Well, that's... We're, we're a bunch of nerds, you know, we, we're passionate about this stuff, so- Yeah ... and like yourself, so it's, uh, it's fun to talk about. Um, yeah, I, I really think that the science, some, the, the foundational science has been done. Now what we're seeing is more, uh, precision engineered formulas that are being studied.
You know, new ingredients, uh, but really dialing in the formula and, and really the top companies, the ones that are gonna succeed, and that's what we're, we're expecting to succeed, I, I say we already have success, we're in sales, um, is that we're gonna continue to do studies. You know, we're gonna continue down this road of, uh, doing human clinical trials on our formulations to show, uh, to show the proof is there.
Um, and I... That's what the consumer wants. [01:28:00] Um, and, you know, uh, there's, there's also, uh, the different proteins that are coming out now. You... New s- new categories out there, clear proteins. Yeah. And what I'm learning now, and I've been meeting with manufacturers on getting a clear protein supplier, is that, you know, these are, these are vegetable-based proteins.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Hm. They're vegetable-based, and the manufacturing's come a, a long way. They've been able to filter out, from my understanding so far, the non-nutritive factors out of the, out of the plant-based source, and it is, uh, make it clear. Uh, there's a process to that, um, but I mean, the, it's just gonna keep happening.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: I mean, the innovation is there. You know, when you're selling a product to a consumer, right, n- taste is the king and queen, right? Yep. Then after that, it's like you're looking at, uh, the, the smell of it, the, the appearance of it, the packaging, the claims, you know, all these [01:29:00] things are... This is what decides, uh, within, within a couple seconds, usually one to two seconds, if the consumer's gonna buy it or not.
So, um, yeah, I, I'm really pleased with the direction Movate is going and our Muscle OTC brand that's gonna be coming out soon and- And yeah, I, I'm really excited to... Maybe, Mike, we, we can talk more once we get the results from this- For sure, yeah ... new one study and, and talk again on this. Yeah. Yeah. And your, your thing about taste is, is so true.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like, so when I do consulting for other companies, it's, no matter how good your product is, and I've done some work in the, the ketone space, especially with, uh, ketone esters, which, holy crap, you wanna taste something that tastes bad, like try 1,3-butanediol. It... I've never had jet fuel, but the first time I had it, I had some of the original stuff that was synthesized by Patrick Arnold for Don D'Agostino through a different guy.
I thought I poisoned myself. I was like- Uh-huh ... this is [01:30:00] absolutely horrendous. Um, and so one of the other companies I worked, did some work with, they had one that was, it wasn't amazing tasting originally, but it was so far ahead of what was on the market. And now the version they have is, is pretty darn good.
You know? So to see something... And they used a different molecule slightly, which helped. Um, but even in that space I just kept telling them, like, "Yes, yours is much better on taste, so right now, like, I would push the hell out of that and just do, like, taste test comparisons and all sorts of stuff." Because there is a very small amount of the market that's still hardcore, that'll, you know, take cat piss amino acids.
But that is such a tiny fraction of the market that, like, it... If your product doesn't taste good now and, and doesn't smell good, and have a good mouth feel and all that kind of stuff, it's gonna be virtually impossible to have any mass appeal. It is just- Right ... not gonna happen. 20 years ago, yeah, maybe.
Like, people put up with a lot of [01:31:00] crap then. But now, like, no way. It is just- Yeah ... just not gonna fly. Right. And y- you know, um, uh, Mike, I, I just wanna mention this. Um, you know, this formula, you know, leucine-enriched essential amino acids, uh, with protein, you know, it did catch criticism, but not for the leucine or the essentials.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: It, but it caught criticism years ago, and you'll probably hear this and you'll hear... I, I hear this from manufacturers. I'm hearing it now. You know, they, they'll say, "Well, you know, your formula is really protein spiking." Or yeah, protein spiking. Or amino, I, I don't know what they call it. Pro- yes, protein spiking.
And I have to correct these manufacturers very, very quickly that... And I want the viewers to understand this, that what we're doing here is not protein spiking. What is protein spiking? What happened, uh, oh, you see, it was, it was a big thing. I mean, it's been a big thing, but 10 years ago a lot of [01:32:00] lawsuits were going out.
Yep. Um, and, uh, the protein spiking with that, what people were doing was to try to increase their margin by putting in some, uh, other amino acid like a glutamine or a glycine or something that, you know, a non-essential amino acid- Yeah. Some were even sticking creatine in because it'll register as nitrogen somewhat.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And the PDCAAS score, like we said, uh, the protein digestibility correct amino acid score, uh, that score is based on nitrogen. Yep And so what they were doing is they put in a very cheap amino acid, uh, into the formula, run the PD CAS score, show that the PD CAS score is way high, and then try to say that it's this high-quality protein when it's really just collagen.
Yeah, yeah. I hate to beat up collagen right there, but it's true. Yeah. But if you're buying whey protein and you get collagen, that's a completely different thing. It's like- That's a different thing ... yeah, I, I'm using them for different things. Yeah, yeah. So I just want the consumer and the, [01:33:00] and the viewers here to understand this is not protein spiking.
Uh, leucine and essential amino acids have been studied since the '70s, and we know that Particular leucine is the, like, the foreman at the job site. He, that, he, he or she blows that whistle, and then all the other essential amino acids and non-essentials are like the bricks going into the wall. That's different from protein spiking.
Protein spiking is you're not getting the foreman blowing the whistle at all. There, there's no work being done. So this, I, I, well, I wanna make that very clear to the, the listeners here. This is not protein spiking. This is precision engineered, um, amino acid protein, uh, doses. It's precision engineered with leucine essentials, vitamin D3, with protein, and we try to always select the, the higher quality proteins.
I think also the plant-based proteins that has its, its pl- its place there. For whatever [01:34:00] reasons, many people don't wanna consume a animal-based protein. That's fine. You could put this still in a, in a plant-based protein, and this is where we're gonna continue the studies, is that it can make that plant-based source better as far as, uh, stimulating, uh, muscle protein synthesis.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for all the great info. I really appreciate it. And, um, if manufacturers are interested in using your, your product, how can they contact you? And, uh, any other general information- Yep ... for general listeners? Yeah. Uh, check us out at luvate.com, L-U-V-A-T-E.com. Uh, that'll show a lot of our, our clinical work and what's going on right there.
Daniel A. Traylor, Ph.D.: Um, if you, uh, reach, reach out to me, you can always get in touch with me on my LinkedIn. Uh, the luvate.com has our contact information there as well. Um, and also check out Iso Clear, uh, being sold by PVL, uh, up in Canada. Check out their website, see what's going on there if you're in Canada. [01:35:00] Pick you up a Iso Clear.
And check out Tape Control Science, uh, tapecontrols- uh, science.com. Uh, you've got it all, be down in the description, but they're- Yeah, I'll put it in the notes ... yeah, they're selling, uh, I have to say that, uh, Tape Control Science is making a really nice product. Uh, they're W- they're using WPI. It comes from Mullins, which is out of Wisconsin.
And the reason I love Mullins is I'd say it's probably one of the best whey proteins in the United States. Uh, Mullins is a family-owned business. They actually, uh, within a couple hours, two hours or so, uh, where all the dairy farms are, the milk comes directly to the company. They, they, they process 80 million gallons a day.
Oof. And, you know, when you're learning about the sources of whey protein, you realize that some companies, they have to source from across the country. Yeah. So it might take days before they get the milk there. And so if you want a nice fresh, clean whey protein, [01:36:00] check out Tape Control Science. They use a great whey protein isolate by Mullins with our Luvate formula in there.
Um, and also the Luv8, we, we make it with creatine and without creatine. Take Control Science is doing it with creatine. Uh, so check out luv8.com, reach out to us, uh, manufacturers, brands, uh, and be in touch with us. We can really help you out on product claims, and we can also help you on your margins and reduce the amount of, uh, protein needed in your formula, especially in this whole, uh, whey protein, uh, uh, s- uh, crazy spike that's going on right now in pricing.
So there you go. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for everything. We really appreciate it, and that was great. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Yeah, Mike, thank you so much. It was great to be on your show, and I hope to come back and talk to you soon. Yeah. Thank you so much. Okay.
Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Huge thanks, Dr. Daniel A. [01:37:00] Taylor, for coming on the podcast and explaining everything that's going on with Luvate and all the great stuff he's doing and the breakdown of how much protein do you need, different circumstances, what are all the amino acids, uh, doing, and especially if people are using GLP-1s, what are some of the other recommendations and things you can do?
So we do know that to reduce the risk of lean body mass loss with GLP-1s or even someone doing sorta crash diets, exercise or stimulating muscle and protein are probably the top two things that they can do. And even within protein, getting in, uh, leucine and essential amino acids So make sure to check out all the great stuff he's got going on there.
We'll put all the links and everything down there. If there's anything I can do to help out, please contact me. Uh, as I said at the beginning, as of this recording, I do not have any disclosures with them currently. Uh, I [01:38:00] do with some other companies, but nothing related to anything going on in this podcast other than I do some affiliate work for Driven Nutrition, which does sell, uh, sports supplements and a few other, uh, companies.
But wanted to highlight all the great stuff, uh, that they are doing and doing the human trials and trying to work and show evidence that their product is efficacious. It's kind of the catch-22 in sports supplements that you don't necessarily have to do human trials per se. Uh, we want data and wanna know that it is, uh, safe, so they're going above and beyond and working to do great stuff there.
So huge kudos, uh, to them, and all their contact info and everything is there down below. Anything I can do to help out, please let me know. Uh, if you do contact them, uh, please tell them you heard them through the show 'cause that helps us with promotion and getting this into more people's ear holes. If you want more stuff from me, go hop on the free newsletter, miketnelson.com/newsletter.
It's [01:39:00] where all the information there goes out. We have good free stuff, uh, for you. Sometimes super nerdy, but always try to make it, uh, practical and research-based so at the end of the day, you know what to do to increase body comp, performance, and health. So thank you so much for listening. Really appreciate it.
Uh, if you could do us a favor with the old algorithms, subscribe, download, like, send it to a friend, uh, give us a shout-out online. Make sure to tag, uh, both of us in it so we can say thank you, as we really, really do appreciate it. And like I said, it really helps us out, uh, get better distribution. Uh, if you happen to be one of the few people that watch us on the old YouTube channel, if you could subscribe there, that would help us out a ton.
Trying to get past 1,000 subscribers. I know 90, 95% of people are on audio, but if you are one of those handful of people on YouTube, if you could hit the old subscribe button there, makes a huge difference. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. We really, really appreciate [01:40:00] it. Got a ton more great stuff coming up.
Thank you so much. Talk to you soon