Nutrition and exercise coach Zach Moore joins Dr. Mike to strip fitness back to fundamentals — why most lifters overthink programming, how to build strength with minimal volume, and why gut health and micronutrient status quietly determine whether your diet actually works. If you've been chasing complicated protocols instead of the basics, this conversation is your reset.
Zach Moore is a nutrition and exercise coach based in southern Indiana, coaching clients online and in person.
Zach cuts through the noise of complicated programming and diet protocols to get back to what actually works — minimalist strength training, honest macro-setting, and paying attention to gut health and micronutrient status before chasing anything fancier.
Expect to learn how to build serious strength with far less training volume than you think, why chasing perfect programming conditions is often a waste of energy, how Zach sets carbohydrate and macro targets for real-world clients, when (and when not) to bother with micronutrient or gut testing, and why micronutrients matter even on restrictive or elimination diets, and much more.
Connect with Zach:
Website: zmoore.com
Instagram: @ZachMFitness
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Episode Timestamps:
[00:00:00] Dr Mike T Nelson: Welcome to the podcast, Zach. How are you today?
[00:05:18] Zach Moore: Hey, I'm good, Mike. Yeah, thanks a lot for having me.
[00:05:20] Zach Moore: I'm excited to be here.
[00:05:21] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, no problem. You're, uh, sweating your nuts off there down in Indiana, I hear.
[00:05:26] Zach Moore: Yes, yes. We have a crazy heat wave. Uh, it's like in the 90s, humid, like no air flow. So we were talking about our garage gyms and-
[00:05:35] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. ...
[00:05:36] Zach Moore: just how bad it is out there. But yeah, it's like a sauna when I get done.
[00:05:40] Zach Moore: Um, I'll like go do a lift, I'll come in the house for a second and go back out and yeah, it's pretty rough.
[00:05:46] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I, I tried doing that for a while, but I realized the more I went in the house, the less I wanted to go back out into the garage- Oh ... even during a session. So now I have a little lim- a little internal rule that I won't do it until I'm done with the session.
[00:06:03] Zach Moore: That's ... Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I have, I have a client actually who works in like a wood factory- Oof ... and all they have is fans, and he's ... It's hot as crazy, and he'll still come and train with me, and I'm like, "Man, you're so hot." And he said, "Even when I get home," he said, "I do not go in the house," because he's like, "My wife knows if I step in that house, I am not leaving, like, the couch."
[00:06:20] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, yeah.
[00:06:20] Zach Moore: I'll just be worthless. Um, and yeah, so I, I mean, I just get like an air on my face and then I go back out 'cause yeah, it's over if you get too comfortable.
[00:06:30] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and the worst thing is when I'm trying to do grip stuff, too, like you're... The- when it's really humid, like the sweat will run down off your forearms, and you'll take a towel, you'll wipe everything off, and I got fricking chalk halfway up my arms.
[00:06:42] Dr Mike T Nelson: And like after about two reps it's already like running down into your hands, and I'm like, "What am I doing? Th- this is like the-" "... dumbest exercise to do for this. Like maybe I should do-" Yeah "... singles and then do something else, I guess."
[00:06:54] Zach Moore: Yeah. Yeah, it's been pretty rough to manage. I also have backyard chickens, so-
[00:06:58] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, wow
[00:06:59] Zach Moore: yeah, moving them around and, uh, dealing with the heat, getting them water and stuff like that. But they seem to manage all right. They don't mind it too much.
[00:07:06] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, that's good. That is a pro I find of having the cold water immersion. Like since I've had it now, this is, oh God, this is six years I've had the converted freezer, which has still got more silicone than anything on it by this point but still works, is that doing that after you're done training, like I don't come in the house and sweat for like three hours- Oh, yeah
[00:07:27] Dr Mike T Nelson: profusely, even in air conditioning.
[00:07:30] Zach Moore: That is
[00:07:30] Dr Mike T Nelson: true. So it is kinda a nice way of just dumping all the heat. We could argue if that's the best from an adaptation standpoint or not. I guess it depends on what you're trying to do. But from a practicality of living my life, like even coming back in and having air conditioning, which is great, a lot of times you just have so much built up heat that you're just, you just sweat for hours afterwards even.
[00:07:51] Zach Moore: Yeah, you do. Yeah. And it also just sticks to you. Like even if- Yep ... you wipe it off, I feel like it just- ... still just sticks to you, so. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:01] Dr Mike T Nelson: Okay. Anyway.
[00:08:01] Zach Moore: So hopefully it doesn't last too much longer.
[00:08:03] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I hope not. Um, so related to that, the topic today is what are some things for better body composition?
[00:08:11] Dr Mike T Nelson: And I also find it interesting that related to what we were talking about at the intro, a lot of the people I've seen in the past with, you know, pretty good physiques, pretty good body comp, like it seemed to be the trend years ago that like most of them trained in the worst possible conditions known to man.
[00:08:29] Dr Mike T Nelson: I, I often wonder about that. I've talked to Dr. Pat Davidson about this, too, of what are we losing from an adaptation standpoint by literally sitting in air conditioning, driving in our air-conditioned cars, going to an air-conditioned gym, doing exercise? Like again, I think there's still a ton of benefits to it and, you know, my little argument from a physiologic flexibility standpoint is you should probably spend some time doing heat regulation because that is a capacity humans have.
[00:08:59] Dr Mike T Nelson: But it feels like you take that concept and you extend it forward now, and I even ran into this when I was teaching fitness experts at a two-year program here- is there's still this infatuation with, "Well, if I don't have this piece of equipment or I don't have the Glute Builder 4000, like, the, the, I can't get the physique I want or get the body comp I want."
[00:09:21] Dr Mike T Nelson: But you go back to even, like, before, you know, Dianabol and before steroids in 1950s, 1940s, turn of the century, 1900s, Saxon, all those guys, like, they didn't even have power racks. No. Like, they basically had some kettle bells, and, like, a bar was, like, a cool thing. Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of them, before drugs even, built extremely impressive physiques.
[00:09:42] Dr Mike T Nelson: So what are your- Yeah ... general thoughts on that?
[00:09:44] Zach Moore: Yeah, no, I totally agree, and I think it goes into this idea of, like, people just tending to overthink things nowadays and, like- Oh, for sure ... you know, a little bit of, uh- Mm-hmm ... program hopping as well 'cause that's the bad thing with social media is you see the next hot trend where...
[00:09:57] Zach Moore: You know, back in the day, I remember, like, finding a workout in a book and being like, "This is it." Like- Oh, yeah ... "This is the, the workout that's going to get me the results." And you didn't see what the results everyone was getting from that workout.
[00:10:09] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, you had no
[00:10:10] Zach Moore: idea. You know? So you trusted it, right?
[00:10:12] Zach Moore: You're like, "Oh, my God. This is from this guy. I know him. He writes these articles. I've seen a few of his client transformations." And, like, that belief and that buy-in, you know, you went in. You worked your butt off, and I feel like that's what those guys did, too. Like, they were just... They enjoyed it. They went in, and they, they knew they had to work hard.
[00:10:30] Zach Moore: Um, and I think, again, a lot of this optimization culture, like hitting from the exact angle, like, no doubt it's making a difference in, in bodybuilding. Like, the physiques- Oh, for sure ... you know, are improving, all that. But for just the average Joe, I think it, it often is a net negative. Like, you know, instead of just finding something you enjoy and working hard at it and not trying to optimize every single...
[00:10:52] Zach Moore: Like you said, driving in the perfect conditions and making sure you have the right equipment and, like, you know, like, not sweating too much when you're deadlifting 'cause- ... it's gonna mess up your grip, right? Well, find another exercise. Do it one-handed, you know? I mean, like, there's other ways around it. So, um, yeah, I think that's a huge problem nowadays.
[00:11:11] Zach Moore: Yeah, just- Again, just not trusting what you're following or seeing something new and switching and all that.
[00:11:18] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I see that with the rise of, like, more cable work now, which, which I like. I think there's a time and a place for it. Just obviously from a mechanical standpoint, there's some cool things you can do with cables you can't do with just sort of gravity-based stuff because of the cable, which is amazing.
[00:11:33] Dr Mike T Nelson: But, I mean, I only go to a commercial gym twice a week, maybe once a week now in the summer. Um, but even then you see the same... It tends to be younger guys who are kinda eel-shaped rakes that are just hanging out at the, the cable machine doing 14 different angles and-
[00:11:49] Zach Moore: Yeah ... you
[00:11:50] Dr Mike T Nelson: know, not using the handles and God knows whatever else.
[00:11:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: And I'm just thinking, like- I don't know, maybe eat a sandwich and do
[00:11:59] Zach Moore: some
[00:11:59] Dr Mike T Nelson: deadlifts Yeah Like, I don't know. But
[00:12:01] Zach Moore: I was gonna bring that up. So I feel like you had a newsletter on the deadlift, uh- I did, yeah ... not too long ago, how, like, effective it is. And like- Oh, yeah ... I totally agree. Like, so many people nowadays are like, "Why would you deadlift?
[00:12:11] Zach Moore: Like, that doesn't hit any one muscle, like, really well." What? Like, it doesn't hit your hamstrings as well as an RDL or it's, it's more taxing, the stimulus fatigue ratio, you know, like- Right ... all this stuff, and it's like Oh my God, most people aren't to that level. Like, they would build so much more. Just pick something heavy off the fl- like, I'm a huge fan of just kinda that simple stuff.
[00:12:32] Zach Moore: Like, it works. Um, and that's another issue I have is so many people, so many trainers online now have never trained people in person. Like, it just hasn't-
[00:12:40] Dr Mike T Nelson: Never Never
[00:12:41] Zach Moore: Like, not a,
[00:12:41] Dr Mike T Nelson: not a single time.
[00:12:43] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, when you only have someone, I mean, when someone only has time for, you know, three lifts a week or something, like, it's a great exercise.
[00:12:51] Zach Moore: Like, you're gonna get way more bang for your buck than, yeah, doing 50 different angles of a, yeah, cable pull or bicep curl.
[00:12:59] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I mean, my go-to for that is, yeah, use a trap bar. I think you can make an argument, I get your opinion on this too, of a trap bar's easier to teach, it's easier for people to figure out.
[00:13:09] Dr Mike T Nelson: Y- I get that it's a squat hybrid. It's not really a deadlift and a hinge and blah, blah, blah, whatever, but it's a compound lift most people can execute with rather decent form with not a ton of teaching, and you can put a, a lot of weight on it relative to other lifts. And I always go back to just the old-school Bill Starr five by five.
[00:13:32] Dr Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm, oh yeah. Like, if you want some mix of hypertrophy and strength, like, just push five by five, even if you only push it on deadlift. Like, I think you can make huge changes just by doing that. And again, it's not easy. It's definitely hard. It... I wouldn't say it's fun. I actually kinda like it, you know, but you just progressive overload.
[00:13:54] Dr Mike T Nelson: What is a load that you can progress in a safe manner? And if you can load it with more load safely, especially for younger audience members or people, yeah, like, do that.
[00:14:05] Zach Moore: Mm-hmm, yep. Oh, yeah. No, I totally agree. And, like, I don't know, so many of my clients have probably heard me say this, but I'm a huge fan of the quote, like, "Many people overestimate what they can accomplish in the short term- Yep
[00:14:16] Zach Moore: but they, like, underestimate what they can accomplish in the long term." And, like, adding two and a half pounds to the bar, like, I know it's simple, or, like, five pounds to the bar, like, that is gonna make a difference over the long... If you just stick with that and, like, really foc- I feel like we've just forgotten progressive, progressive overload.
[00:14:31] Zach Moore: Um-
[00:14:32] Dr Mike T Nelson: No, that's not sexy, Zach. What are you talking
[00:14:33] Zach Moore: about? Yeah, I know. I know. I know. That's not gonna be an Instagram post. I know, it's so boring. No, I know. It's so boring. That's why you won't see me on Instagram too much. Uh, for one, I'm, like, so contextual. I'm like, "Well, it depends on this and X, Y, Z." Yeah, yeah.
[00:14:44] Zach Moore: I'm really bad about social media. But, um, yeah. And then going back to the trap bar, it is interesting, like, you were... I don't know which direction you wanna go with that, but, um, I do like the trap bar. I mean, you know, I use it a decent amount. But I find that actually a lot of clients have more back pain with a trap bar.
[00:15:00] Dr Mike T Nelson: They can,
[00:15:01] Zach Moore: yeah. I, yeah, I mean, it's very c- because- I feel like with a trap bar, you can get your lats a little tighter, you can set into your glutes a little more, like, because you have to set back a little bit more. So I feel like with proper teaching, a straight bar- You're saying with a
[00:15:14] Dr Mike T Nelson: straight bar or with a trap bar?
[00:15:16] Zach Moore: With a straight bar, you can better engage- Got it ... your lats-
[00:15:19] Dr Mike T Nelson: That
[00:15:19] Zach Moore: makes sense ... and you can better kind of set into your hips a little more. And I feel like most people that say like, "Well, I don't have back pain with a trap bar," they're squatting it. I mean, they're doing like a, you know, basically a squat.
[00:15:28] Zach Moore: So I'm a fan of a trap bar, don't get me wrong. It's just, uh, you know, it kind of depends person to person. I find with good teaching, I can get a straight bar, you know, better.
[00:15:39] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I find that if I'm working with someone in person, my default would be if I have time to work with you, I'll definitely teach you how to do a straight bar deadlift.
[00:15:49] Dr Mike T Nelson: But I've also seen how many people screw that up- Like, yeah ... a lot.
[00:15:54] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:55] Dr Mike T Nelson: And the ... I, I think I've told this story before, but, uh, I don't know if you remember the old, uh, tactical strengths challenge that RKC used to have back in the day. Mm-hmm. So I think the entry one for guys was max deadlift, max pull-ups, and then number of snatches with the 24 kg in five minutes.
[00:16:13] Dr Mike T Nelson: And it was kind of a cool thing because you've got a 1RM lift, you've got a body weight relative lift, and then you've got, you know, sort of this pseudo-endurance, um, type thing. And so I remember doing that and I remember doing 123 snatches in five minutes, and I was just absolutely disgusting after doing that.
[00:16:31] Dr Mike T Nelson: Um, and then the second year, or no, was this the fourth year I did it, I'm like, "Oh, they have the elite one," which is, uh, max deadlift, was it pull-ups with 10 or 20 pounds, and then snatches with the 32
[00:16:45] Zach Moore: kg. Yep.
[00:16:46] Dr Mike T Nelson: That was absolute ... I think the snatches with a 32 kg, I think I only got like 65 or something, and I was wrecked for like- Yeah
[00:16:54] Dr Mike T Nelson: I don't even think I could stand up for like a half hour after that. It was horrible. But there's a guy there from, I think he came down from North Dakota, and we didn't know who he was. He's warming up, keeps going up in the deadlift. I'm sitting next to my buddy Adam Glass, and we, we see him just absolute round back, like a 455 deadlift.
[00:17:15] Dr Mike T Nelson: Just looked like a pooping dog. And we both turned to each other and we're like On one hand, that's incredibly impressive that he did not hurt himself and he's fine. On the other hand, I never wanna see that again.
[00:17:29] Zach Moore: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Oh, man, I've seen some... It's hard for me to go to commercial gym much anymore 'cause I'm just- Ooh,
[00:17:36] Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah
[00:17:37] Zach Moore: yeah, it's pretty rough. But I do remember that test. I feel like when I was an intern, do you know Mike Robertson? Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was prepping for that, and I remember his hands being all, like- Oh, your hands just get destroyed if you're not ready ... just toasted. And so I would, I would kinda mess around with him, yeah, yeah, and just...
[00:17:52] Zach Moore: Yeah, but that was a big thing back then. I mean, that was around, I don't know, 2010 probably. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Um, that's kind of the, the timeframe, but yeah, it was a pretty big thing. Um.
[00:18:02] Dr Mike T Nelson: What are kinda some of your go-to lifts that you find programming? Like, if someone says, "Hey, I want better body composition," so we could divide that into obviously getting a l- a little bit leaner at some point.
[00:18:12] Dr Mike T Nelson: But I think the other part that people forget is you probably need to add some muscle. Like, even if you take, I would say even the average female, if you can change their body comp by only five pounds, so if you could wave your magic wand and magically add five pounds of lean body mass and make them five pounds leaner at the same time, or for guys, like 10 and 10.
[00:18:34] Dr Mike T Nelson: Like, if you could add 10 pounds of actual lean body mass and lose 10 pounds of fat That is, like, a substantial difference that I feel like is underplayed currently- Mm-hmm ... where everything seems to be pushing to these extremes, where I think if you could just add a little bit more of lean body mass and lose some fat, like, you can look quite a bit different without these extremes.
[00:18:59] Dr Mike T Nelson: We're not talking about gain 20 pounds of mass and lose 20 pounds of fat. Like, it's not as extreme, I don't think, as what people realize to see a noticeable difference.
[00:19:09] Zach Moore: Yeah. Well, and we, and we can come back to this. I know we were gonna talk about nutrition, too. Yeah, yeah I love both topics, but, like, that's an issue I see with a lot of, you know, nutrition clients, is they just wanna lose as much weight as possible.
[00:19:18] Zach Moore: Yep. They're like, "I just wanna lose weight. I know that's what will make me happy." And it's like, "I bet you aren't- Yeah. ... gonna be super happy with your body comp if we get you very lean- Yep ... because you just don't have enough muscle." Um, so yeah, I think that needs to be a huge priority, is focusing on that.
[00:19:32] Zach Moore: And so, you know, as of right now, so I, I train some people out of my garage, and then I also have online clients that have full commercial gym. But, you know, I am... I like to keep it simple, so I always find some type of, like, squatting pattern that fits the person really well. It doesn't have to be a back squat, a front squat.
[00:19:49] Zach Moore: It can be a leg press, a hack squat. You know, I mean, I do like a pretty good compound, you know, type squat type pattern. Um, so type, some type of hinge pattern, you know, RDL, deadlift. You know, it can even be a hip extension on a 45 degree. You know what I mean? There's many different options. You know, an upper body horizontal push, upper body horizontal pull, you know, vertical push/pull.
[00:20:11] Zach Moore: Um, those are kind of the big ones, and then, you know, some accessories are kind of my go-to. But if someone's just really short on time, I keep it simple with, like, you know, a lower body, a push, and a pull. Like, upper push, upper pull, and then maybe one to two accessories. Um, and again, if you focus on that, like, progressive overload, most people can...
[00:20:31] Zach Moore: dang, they can get 80, 85% of their, I mean, maybe more, of what they need- Mm-hmm ... if they just do that for two years and try to add weight to the bar, and they don't need a lot of exercise variety. You just don't. Um, and you can get into that later if it's boring or something like that. But I mean, I'm like you.
[00:20:51] Zach Moore: I could do the same lifts over and over. Like, I don't get bored- ... of the... well, maybe, I don't know. You said that earlier anyways with the Bill Starr routine. Like, you like that. Yeah, yeah. Like, I can do similar things over and over, and I know some people can't, so I will include a little bit of variety. But, um, that's where people run into issues, too, is they wanna, they wanna switch exercise a lot because you feel like you progress faster.
[00:21:10] Zach Moore: But really that's just, right, that's just your nervous system. I mean, you're just kinda learning the pattern. You're getting better at doing it, as opposed to actually adding mass from- You know, progressive overload with it. Um-
[00:21:23] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I was laughing because I, I thought of the quote from my coach, Adam Glass, who I'm asking him, like, to
[00:21:29] Dr Mike T Nelson: So one of my goals is to pick up the 175-pound inch dumbbell. Um, so I, you know, asked him about, you know, specificity and stuff, and, and he's done it, you know, multiple times. I used to train with him here when he was in the cities and-
[00:21:41] Zach Moore: Oh, wow ...
[00:21:41] Dr Mike T Nelson: I think one day he was seeing, he had an hour to see how many times he could pick up the inch dumbbell, and he got, like, 63 reps or, or something just absolutely bananas.
[00:21:51] Dr Mike T Nelson: Like, most people can't pick it up period. Like, I have a- Oh, yeah ... 100-pound replica here, and I would say half of the people who train could pick that up. Like, I've had one person pick up the 135 who was not training for grip sport or something like that. So ... And I remember asking him, I said, "Well, what about all these, you know, different..."
[00:22:12] Dr Mike T Nelson: I was kinda joking with him, 'cause I've known him for years. I said, "What about all these different varieties and all these other weird grip implements and everything you see online?" He's like, "Maybe," but he's like, "The key is just to go out and pick up something heavy that looks like a round-shaped dumbbell, and to just do it over and over."
[00:22:29] Dr Mike T Nelson: I said- Oh ... "Oh, so Adam, that's the key to success?" He's like- ... "Yep, 'cause my autistic ass can go out there for an hour and just pick up a dumbbell and set it down again- ... and come back the next day and do it again."
[00:22:40] Zach Moore: Maybe that's my issue. I probably am on the s- I'm on, probably on the spectrum a little bit.
[00:22:45] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:22:45] Dr Mike T Nelson: But I find that is a, a key because, like, I've screwed up people's programs years ago by injecting variety when they were making really good progress, and I just felt like it was my own insecurity of, like, oh my God, why are they gonna pay me all this money and I'm just gonna tell them to do the same thing again next month, but just a little bit different?
[00:23:09] Dr Mike T Nelson: But the reality was I did them a disservice 'cause I actually, actually they got worse results.
[00:23:13] Zach Moore: Yeah.
[00:23:14] Dr Mike T Nelson: Well, and you- You know, you're always finding this fine line between let's give you the things that are gonna work to get you to your goal. If we can inject some novelty and some variability, by all means, we'll definitely do it, but we're not gonna do, like, these wholesale complete changes of your program every six weeks.
[00:23:30] Zach Moore: Yeah. No, definitely. And also too, many people, like, they feel like they're stalled if they don't progress every week, or like every- Yeah, which is ... even every second time. It's like, that's so silly, right? So if you, you know, like, let's say you bench 100 pounds, and then, you know, you set a PR, you hit 105 pounds.
[00:23:49] Zach Moore: It's not like the very next time if you do 105 pounds again, you don't make progress. Like, oh, that's no longer a stimulus. Mm-hmm. Like, I hit 105 pounds one time I, you know, it's not like it no longer is like a stimulus that'll build muscle. It's like, you know, it's crazy. You could do 105 pounds, you know, multiple times and that's still gonna be a stimulus for you.
[00:24:09] Zach Moore: So, um, I think people are quick to change too, um, you know, if they're not adding weight or reps every single time, you know?
[00:24:18] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And as you know, like, after you've been doing this shit for decades now, like- Oh ... I mean, I literally the other day did one more rep on an, an inch, a 135-inch with the two and a half pound counterweights, and I was stoked.
[00:24:34] Dr Mike T Nelson: I was like, "Hey, that's great." You know, like last week I picked up the 135 for five singles and s- my PR before that was four singles. You know, so it's like the, you're, you're liter- And that doesn't even happen every session, you know? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Those are, those are the good sessions. Those are the ones that are like, "Yeah, today was a great day."
[00:24:50] Dr Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm. I got one more frigging rep.
[00:24:52] Zach Moore: I know.
[00:24:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: And here- You know, but after a while that's, that's, that's progress.
[00:24:56] Zach Moore: Yeah. And you get... I, like, I don't know, like, I've heard of like Olympic lifters, like they're notorious for doing the same exact lifts over and over, right? And like even powerlifters and it seems like it, like- They'll, they'll be stalled for a long period of time, and then all of a sudden they hit, like a, kind of a breakthrough.
[00:25:12] Zach Moore: Whether- Yep ... then they'll, like, set PRs for a while, and then it's like a stall for-
[00:25:16] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yep ...
[00:25:16] Zach Moore: quite a while, and it's another breakthrough. And, uh, yeah, it's just crazy. I mean, that's why the ... I mean, again, we're talking about, like, really strong people. Like, but even the mental aspects of, like, imagery and, like, confidence and all that stuff is, you know, so big.
[00:25:30] Zach Moore: Like in other sports, you know, basketball, you start hitting some shots, feel like everything goes down, you know? Or golf, like, it just, it starts to flow and I think the same thing can happen with lifting, too. But-
[00:25:41] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And it, it seems like the longer you do it, the more non-linear it is.
[00:25:46] Zach Moore: Yeah.
[00:25:47] Dr Mike T Nelson: You know, like, I remember my axle was stuck at, like, 285 for quite a while, and it wasn't necessarily working out as my number one lift.
[00:25:54] Dr Mike T Nelson: And then I'd go away from it, and it felt like, oh man, I'm just, like, kinda, you know, starting over. You know, work sets were 255, 265 or whatever. There'll be this period of time where it seems like if you can hit ... So the thing I did on the last block was if I can hit 90% of my one RM, I think that's gonna transfer to my new one RM, even if it's not there that day, right?
[00:26:18] Dr Mike T Nelson: So if I could hit singles with 275, I could hit doubles with 265. And if I could just keep progressing the volume of that, maybe even only adding one more rep for the entire exercise session, and sometimes not even doing that. And then all of a sudden I had a whole run where I'm like, oh, I hit 290. Oh, that was great.
[00:26:37] Dr Mike T Nelson: And then it was like, oh, I hit 290 again. Oh, I got 295 to my knees. Oh, I hit 290 for the third time, you know? And so there's this weird non-linearity to it where I don't think if you're used to that or know that it's coming, it, it feels incredibly frustrating, like you're stuck, but you're, you're still making progress, it's just really slow.
[00:26:58] Dr Mike T Nelson: But that does transfer at some point, which I don't know how to predict that, but it, it just seems like that's the pattern.
[00:27:06] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah. It makes me rem- I don't know, it reminds me ... And again, I like just talking to you about, like, kind of the old times, 'cause-
[00:27:12] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh yeah,
[00:27:12] Zach Moore: I love that stuff ... we're both from, like, the same stuff.
[00:27:13] Zach Moore: But do you remember, like, Matt Perryman? Oh, yeah Like, Squat, Squat Every Day? I haven't heard of him in years. Do you remember, like, Squat Every Day? Yeah.
[00:27:19] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah,
[00:27:19] Zach Moore: I still think his book is, like, one of the ... I can't remember the name of it. And it's excellent. Uh, it's like mindset or something. Wasn't
[00:27:24] Dr Mike T Nelson: it literally, like, called Squat Every Day or something like that?
[00:27:26] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah. It was. Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:28] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:27:28] Zach Moore: Yeah. But- Yeah, yeah. ... I think that's a great book, like, really good. And it's not just about squatting every day. He has a lot of good stuff in there. But I did that. Like, I did a, a phase of, like, squatting every day, and I remember there were just phases where, like, I would just PR, PR, PR, and it would jump like crazy.
[00:27:43] Zach Moore: And then I would have times where it was super low. It's not super relevant, what we're talking about, but it just made me think of that and him, and I was like, "I wonder what he's doing." But I think it,
[00:27:51] Dr Mike T Nelson: it is relevant. I think people forget that- If you wanna get better at something, there's no getting around specificity.
[00:28:00] Zach Moore: Yeah.
[00:28:00] Dr Mike T Nelson: You know? So, like writing a program, if someone wants to get better at a trap bar deadlift, like Shocker, you're probably gonna trap bar deadlift as much as we possibly can get away with. And then at some point, okay, let's do accessory stuff and that type of thing, where it seems like more now it's like, well, I'm only gonna do that thing once a week, or I'm only gonna do it for
[00:28:17] Dr Mike T Nelson: 'Cause three by 10, God forsake, we haven't changed anything since DeLorme in, like, the frigging, what was it- Yeah ... se- 1957 or something like that.
[00:28:27] Zach Moore: That sounds right.
[00:28:28] Dr Mike T Nelson: I mean, decades ago, right?
[00:28:29] Zach Moore: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:30] Dr Mike T Nelson: And I'm like, if you can handle more volume, like there's nothing magical even about five by five. Like, I've, you know, I've taken sets of five on trap bars out to sometimes seven, eight, you know, nine sets.
[00:28:43] Dr Mike T Nelson: Now, granted, that's over an hour, hour and a half, and something you would progress to over extremely long period of time, and probably not needed for everyone. But there's nothing magical about three sets, you know? Yeah. If you can get more specific practice on the thing you wanna do, I think you're just gonna be, be better, and again, that's gonna drop off at, at, at some point, but, like, try to maximize that first.
[00:29:05] Zach Moore: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And that, I mean, that kinda speaks, too, about, like individuality. Like, you know, we often hear these references, or, like, there's these camps, right, of, like, low frequency or high frequency- Yeah ... or high volume or low volume, and there's these camps, and it's like, again, work with people.
[00:29:21] Zach Moore: Like, like, train people and you'll see that some works for some, some doesn't work for others. Like, some are just, they respond to higher volume or lower volume, or higher frequency or lower frequency. Um, I think that's really why you just, you need to stay in this a while and, like, take notes. I mean, again, if you wanna get better, right?
[00:29:40] Zach Moore: You gotta learn- Right, right ... what works for you. Um, try different programs, but you know, do it slowly. Like, definitely give it an honest shot for a while, and then, you know, change a variable and see how you respond to it. Um, but that's- How do you- I mean, that's why I love coaching, just figuring stuff out like that.
[00:29:55] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. How do you figure that out for your clients? 'Cause I have, in all honesty, found- A good way to figure it out, I mean, I, what I do is I literally program to their constraints, 'cause most people have a certain time that they can do, or frequency, or equipment, or whatever. So I have this whole list of, like, what are all their constraints?
[00:30:15] Dr Mike T Nelson: So, y- you know, if someone says, "I only have a half hour, five days a week," you can't write a program that's an hour, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're just shooting yourself in the foot. Um, but let's say they've got an hour a day, six days a week, like, you know, something like that. They got access to most equipment. I just start them very low on volume, like one or two sets, and then I just scale them up until either run out of time, their HRV goes off a cliff, or they send me multiple emails about how they hate their life because they feel so beat up.
[00:30:44] Dr Mike T Nelson: And then I'm like, "Hey, we probably found what your volume is for now, so let's back you off and then just, you know, kinda wave you up and down." Have you found a way, or what do you do to try to determine, like, how much, even just simply volume they, they should be doing?
[00:30:58] Zach Moore: Yeah, so it's almost identical to you.
[00:30:59] Zach Moore: I mean, I will really start on the low end of volume. I mean, uh, uh, as far as sets anyways. Right, right, as sets, yep. And I wanna make sure someone's training hard first. Um, like make sure they're putting in the intensity and stuff like that. Yeah, they're doing quality effort. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then I will usually change one variable at a time.
[00:31:15] Zach Moore: Like, I will, you know, like let's say they always say And I'll usually ask them, like, "Do you feel like you could do another set here?" Um, you know, or the next day, like, "Where do you feel most sore or tired?" Or if I notice a performance drop-off in, like, their upper body pushing or, you know, something like that, then usually I know that's not the next one to change.
[00:31:35] Zach Moore: But if they just always seem fresh in a particular body part, then that's the one I'll usually add to first and just see how they respond. Um, and then I'll usually pick another area, and I'll just kinda wave it up like that. And, uh, and some people can handle a lot. I mean, even with just not a lot of rest period, um, which again, I am a fan of rest, no doubt, but, like, if they can still perform like they have been with a little bit less rest, then I will push them, you know, to try to get in more in less time.
[00:32:03] Zach Moore: Um, and I'll just kinda wave it like that until we find a good kinda sequence. But yeah, if they start getting joint issues, there's a lot of things that come into it. They may need that volume, but they just-- maybe their joints don't handle it or something like that. Sure. So, um, you know, a lot of variables there with that.
[00:32:20] Dr Mike T Nelson: If you find that they're not able to recover as well and their rest periods are long, do you find that that's, do you think, an aerobic limiter at that point potentially?
[00:32:31] Zach Moore: So yeah, yeah. I mean, that's usually my first thought. Um-
[00:32:35] Dr Mike T Nelson: It could be a bunch of shit, but
[00:32:36] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, it definitely can.
[00:32:38] Zach Moore: I mean, if they don't have the ability... And I was just listening to, uh, you and Nathan Jenkins', uh, podcast- Oh, oh yeah. Thank you ... you know, a while back, and you guys were talking about, well, he's a former colleague. Well, we, we've all, we're former colleagues over at Rapid, and, uh- Yeah, yeah ... so he and I talk sometimes and stuff, and you guys were talking about, you know, just the aerobic system being important just in its ability to help you recover between high-intensity efforts, you know, like CrossFit and stuff like that.
[00:33:00] Zach Moore: So definitely, that can definitely be, you know, a limiter with some people. Um, and usually I can tell, or I just know from their background. Like, "Are you doing anything aerobic?" Yeah Then it's probably that, right? Whereas if they're, you know, already a sport athlete, and they're, like, doing a lot of stuff or something, then I'm like, it's probably just an overall, like, recovery issue, not your aerobic system.
[00:33:22] Zach Moore: So usually you can make a pretty good guess, um- Just knowing, knowing the client and kinda what they're doing outside of that.
[00:33:31] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Uh, last movement question, then we'll go into some nutrition stuff. Um, any favorite exercises for... We'll just split it roughly between upper body and lower body. I mean, for mine, like I've...
[00:33:46] Dr Mike T Nelson: For me, like, the pairing of dumbbell bench press of some form and one- one-arm dumbbell split stance rows. Like, for God's sakes, take your knee off the bench. Like, I don't know what people are doing with that. It, like, bugs the crap out of me. Just do it from a split stance. You'll feel better. Um, and then lower body, I, you know, obviously I like goblet squats, front squats, if people can do them.
[00:34:05] Dr Mike T Nelson: But lately, if people have access, I think, to a belt squat machine or even a hack squat machine that feels good. Unfortunately, I know there's a ton of variability in the way the hack squat- Yeah ... machines are designed. Like, you'll get on some and they feel like trash, and some that feel good. So if it feels like trash, no matter what you do for moving it around, like, just don't use it.
[00:34:25] Dr Mike T Nelson: But those have been kinda my favorites for a little while now in terms of programming.
[00:34:31] Zach Moore: Yeah. I mean, personally, I love front squats. Like, that's like my favorite lift. Yeah, I think if you can do it, front squats- Yeah, if you can do it ... are extremely underrated. But yeah, some people, it's just, they just can't hold the bar.
[00:34:39] Zach Moore: I mean, like, clean grip, cross arm, it just doesn't- Yep ... fit their body very well. Um, so if that isn't a go-to, then I love, uh, hack squat is my favorite. But like you said, it has to fit them. I have yet to find a good one for me. But I haven't trained a lot of different gyms. Yeah. I finally found
[00:34:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: one at the gym here.
[00:34:54] Zach Moore: Okay.
[00:34:55] Dr Mike T Nelson: It, it feels pretty good. Yeah, you're lucky. But 90%, 'cause I have stupid long femurs, it feels like trash.
[00:35:01] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah. See, I have a super long torso, so like-
[00:35:04] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh,
[00:35:04] Zach Moore: okay ... um, I'm actually built to squat like front... That's why front squats are awesome for me. Yeah, yeah. Um, but still, I don't know why a hack squat just does not...
[00:35:12] Zach Moore: And leg press, it's hard to find a good leg press for me. Hmm. So anyways, hack squat, front squat, and if they just cannot do that, um, I do like a Bulgarian, but again, it has to be the right person, right? I think you can really hit, I mean, you can really challenge the lower body with a Bulgarian. Um, so those are probably my big three there.
[00:35:31] Zach Moore: Upper body, to be honest, I have a... So a client gave it to me. I have a Smith machine in my garage.
[00:35:37] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, okay.
[00:35:37] Zach Moore: And I just lo- I mean, a lot of clients just, like a s- like a, an incline Smith press- Hmm ... I find just works for a lot of pe- it almost, like, forces them into the right position. I mean, if I get- Oh, sure
[00:35:47] Zach Moore: the angle right and I teach them elbows under the bar, just so many people have, uh, do really well with that, like, just in terms of pure strength and adding some muscle. You know, there's a lot of stability there. Um, so I like that one. Also just like a single arm bench press. Big fan of that. And then, um, man, pulling, that's a good question I think I'll go with what you said.
[00:36:11] Zach Moore: I mean, I like that a lot. I like a lever row, um, or like a meadows row, but sometimes- Like a meadows row? Yeah,
[00:36:16] Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah ...
[00:36:16] Zach Moore: but I like, I usually I have them support maybe with the other hand if they just aren't- Yep ... good at hip hinging or back issues. But man, a meadows row, really, I love. I mean, personally, I love that one.
[00:36:28] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. That's awesome. And my last pitch is, uh, if you've ever played with a Voltra One from Beyond Power, it's like the little cable machine in a box.
[00:36:36] Zach Moore: I've seen it.
[00:36:37] Dr Mike T Nelson: It's so fun, 'cause you can do, like, super heavy eccentrics, isometrics, et cetera, and I've just been playing a lot with more eccentric loading on accessory stuff, and I think that's, like, super untapped for people that are a little bit more experienced.
[00:36:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: And then even for newer people, I'll just put it on a slight eccentric, and it's amazing how much it cleans up their form, because now I'm doing a longer time under tension, and they feel the more resistance against it. There's just something where it, maybe it's the time domain, maybe they just have more time, maybe they have more feedback or whatever.
[00:37:12] Dr Mike T Nelson: Um, but I found for those two uses it's been super, super helpful.
[00:37:16] Zach Moore: I think that would be really helpful, especially, I mean, like, beginners, like you said. L- and, like, like some of my older clients. Like, the eccentric is what they just really, they just wanna, like, rush it or just to have- Yeah ... more control over it, and that is a downfall to the Smith machine is, like, you know, there's hardly any, there's just not as much eccentric.
[00:37:34] Zach Moore: At least mine, there's hardly a- any eccentric loading. But, uh, yeah, I need to look into that. I'm gonna make a note actually.
[00:37:40] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I, I'm an affiliate for him, too. Shout out to, you know, Elliot and those guys. But it's- Oh ... it's one of those things when they f- I, I first talked to him about it, 'cause I did the Triphasic 2 book, and I'm like, "Hey, it's a good way of doing eccentrics and stuff."
[00:37:52] Dr Mike T Nelson: And, uh, he was super cool. He's ... I, I said, you know, "Can I try one out?" And he, they ended up, um, sending one to me just as a demo, and I'm like, "Oh, that's cool." And after, like, 30 days, I wrote back to him like Yeah, I just love this thing so much, so just invoice me the price. I'll just, I'll just buy it.
[00:38:14] Zach Moore: Yep. Yeah.
[00:38:15] Dr Mike T Nelson: I know, but it's- I need
[00:38:16] Zach Moore: to- ... super fun ... I need
[00:38:17] Dr Mike T Nelson: to
[00:38:17] Zach Moore: probably invest in one. I'll have to talk to you about that after this-
[00:38:20] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah ... '
[00:38:20] Zach Moore: cause I think it'd be helpful for my gym.
[00:38:21] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Awesome. Um, so related to body comp, like I know nutrition could be a whole bunch of stuff, but what are kinda your... What's kinda like you find your big sort of go-to to start with nutrition?
[00:38:35] Zach Moore: Yeah, so I mean, the first thing that I work with clients on is, I mean, I think I stole it from Eric Helms, but like informed eating. Like, I think- Mm ... so many people just aren't aware of- Oh, for sure ... what they're doing, right? And I mean, nutrition, we wanna like do as little as we can with it, but like it's a huge part of...
[00:38:51] Zach Moore: I mean, I always tell people like, "Eat like an adult." Like, if you're an adult, like you have to brush- ... your teeth. You have to, you know, take a shower. You have to do stuff you don't really do. And I feel like we don't wanna think of nutrition that way. It's like- No ... oh, we're gonna like, I don't know, give people issues by tracking their food.
[00:39:07] Zach Moore: And again, you have to make sure it's the right client, right? But I do try to bring some awareness with that, whether it's logging, whether it's tracking. Um, again, I mean, I don't know h- how... I think your audience is more advanced than this. You know, we can get into the minutia of like- Yeah, yeah ... just an overall starting point.
[00:39:23] Zach Moore: Like, let's get informed about what you're doing in terms of your behaviors and eating and stuff like that. And then it's, for me, it's always looking for the big rocks. Like, hey, you're not getting protein in each meal. Like macros are obviously pretty important. I mean, I don't think the carbs and fats ratio is that important, but, um, protein.
[00:39:40] Zach Moore: I also too, like- Again, I think a lot of clients, they wanna chase this fat loss goal and, you know, but a lot of people can make a lot of progress if they just fuel themselves adequately and train harder.
[00:39:55] Dr Mike T Nelson: Um-
[00:39:55] Zach Moore: Oh, for
[00:39:55] Dr Mike T Nelson: sure ...
[00:39:56] Zach Moore: so I'm a big fan of, like, getting clients, once they're at a reasonable body composition, of eating enough food to fuel themselves.
[00:40:04] Zach Moore: Like, I agree, like, you know, I mean, people, a lot of people are scared they're undereating and stuff like that, and I think that can be a thing. But, um, you know, I'm more just like make people aware, like, we have a range of calories that we can eat and maintain our weight, and many people are on the low end of that range where they have the ability to eat more to push their metabolism, push their output, um, and to see better progress.
[00:40:30] Zach Moore: So, um, so it kinda depends on where they're at in their spectrum. If they obviously need to lose weight, we need to, we need to attack that. But for a lot of people, you know, they're kinda in that skinny fat or just they haven't been training that hard, like, fuel yourself for a while, train hard, don't chase a ton of fat loss right now, and then, you know, we can pull the calories back later once you kinda get a little bit of a base going.
[00:40:52] Zach Moore: But I think a lot of people can, can recomp. I mean, I really do think they, they can do that. Um.
[00:40:59] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. That's why I love talking to practitioners like you that do exercise and nutrition at a high level because to me, they're just so... And it's probably 'cause of my background, like I did exercise physiology and then my research was in metabolism, but- They're just so intertwined, and unfortunately, whenever I see, in general, people who only do nutrition, it's like they don't care what their out- output is, and you see clients just do less and less over time.
[00:41:25] Dr Mike T Nelson: Now they're holding onto less lean body mass. They can't train as hard even if they wanted to train hard because their caloric deficit is so high, and their ratios are kind of skewed, and then they get just stuck in this area where they, "I just feel crappy. Now the gym sucks. I don't wanna go anymore." And it's like, well, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.
[00:41:44] Dr Mike T Nelson: Like, yes, at some point if you're trying to step on stage or something like that, then yeah, there's, there's extremes at any point, but like you said, for most people you can just eat more, eat more of the right things. Like, you can do more. Your performance can be better. You have a better stimulus to add more lean body mass.
[00:42:01] Dr Mike T Nelson: You're actually burning more calories because your output is higher. And just that general... I remember reading the G Flux article by John Berardi years ago that, like, just changed my world of like, oh. Oh. Oh, yeah. And I remember looking at all my clients who were poor bastards, especially the women- ... we're at 1,500 calories, and I'm like, "Oh, I screwed up.
[00:42:21] Dr Mike T Nelson: I'm so sorry." Yeah.
[00:42:23] Zach Moore: Well, and it's really interesting, too, like, you know, 'cause I've worked with a lot of pro athletes, and especially with them, like, they already have the output, right?
[00:42:29] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yes.
[00:42:30] Zach Moore: And when you- Yep ... when you tie the nutrition with them, it is crazy the changes in... Like, they see crazy recomp results.
[00:42:37] Zach Moore: Like, we've s- Oh, for sure ... I've seen some dexes on some of those guys. It's like, how did you do... I mean, I know they're genetically blessed, yes, yes, yes, da, da, da. Yeah, but still. But also, like, when you tie the nutrition with, you know, the right output, you know, it's crazy. And I'm not saying everyone needs to train that much.
[00:42:51] Zach Moore: You have to, again, you have to tie the nutrition of what they can actually do and stuff like that. But I also find, too, and I've b- I've felt this, right? Because I've gone through, you know, cuts and gaining phases and stuff like that, and, like, you can get to the stage where you feel okay. Like, you know, you're kinda in this deficit and, you know, you're just walking around, day-to-day activity is okay, and you feel all right.
[00:43:12] Zach Moore: But, like, you're kinda in just this low metabolic state. Like, you're just, I don't know, you just, you, you feel okay to, like, do your day-to-day tasks, but, like, if someone asked you to, like, go for a hike or, like, go do a workout or something like that, it would be, like, a struggle. Like, it would. Yeah. But you don't notice it because you don't, you don't put in that effort.
[00:43:32] Zach Moore: And when you actually fuel yourself with the right foods and, you know, manage digestion and all that stuff, like, you can, you can go harder. You can put in a workout. And I think, uh, too, like, with people who are already working out, you know, I see the difference in the intensity, right? With enough fueling and stuff, 'cause someone may be in there and they feel like they're going hard and like, "Yeah, I mean, I'm burning and I'm, you know, getting a good sweat."
[00:43:55] Zach Moore: But, like, there's definitely a difference between being able to give it, you know, really push yourself and not.
[00:44:02] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and that's the benefit of working with higher level athletes is that they know their outputs, right? And I think that's the hard part about even just, you know, clients who generally exercise.
[00:44:11] Dr Mike T Nelson: And I get it, with, like, weight training and things like that, it is harder to document. You don't have to go nuts per se. But it just feels like, oh, if you went to do and did a row and you did a 2K, what's your time? Well, I don't know. It's just, it always feels hard. Okay. Like, but are you getting better over time?
[00:44:29] Dr Mike T Nelson: Is your heart rate changing? You know, things that, where the machine is already giving you an output. We can argue if that output's correct or not, but relative to that machine, you're, you can see if you're getting better or, or worse. Um, but a lot of times they're like, "Well, well I don't know. My, my previous trainer just said just go hard."
[00:44:47] Dr Mike T Nelson: And I'm like, "Okay, that's good," but you know, I'm kind of this weird stickler where I wanna know what was the output, what did you do? Not that it's, like you said, it's not gonna change every session or even week to week per se, but are we gonna trend in the right direction or not? Are we gonna keep this on maintenance so we're not losing too much?
[00:45:04] Dr Mike T Nelson: And that gives you the ability to kind of, you know, iterate with the nutrition side then too.
[00:45:09] Zach Moore: Yeah. Well, and too, like, I think there's some truth to this notion of, like, chase, like, if your goal is body composition, chase performance and not, like-
[00:45:16] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yes ...
[00:45:17] Zach Moore: body composition. 'Cause one thing with athletes is, like, many of them eat like trash.
[00:45:21] Zach Moore: But- Oh, of course ... they fuel themself based on their efforts, right? They're like, "Man, I didn't, you know, like, I just had a hard workout. Like, I'm ravenous." So they'll, like, go and get a ton of calories, right? 'Cause they need to fuel themselves or, like, they're hungry. Or, like, you know, maybe they didn't feel as good that day, so they'll, like, drink on a Gatorade.
[00:45:38] Zach Moore: They're like, "Man, I'm low energy," so they'll grab a Gatorade from the sports coach or something like that. So they fuel themselves for that effort, and that's why they can go hard each time. But I mean, it doesn't always work out the best for them, but when they have really good nutrition it works out. So I feel like with a general pop person or a body comp person, they more dictate their training from their nutrition.
[00:45:58] Zach Moore: So, like, they may have a workout on paper and they have their nutrition on paper, or they have, you know, they eat a certain way, and then they're, you know, they have a workout maybe. But their intensity will then scale down because they're not eating enough, right? There may be, like, they have a workout, it's 3x8, 3x10, and they may do that, but they're not giving near the effort.
[00:46:19] Zach Moore: And they don't know what they've done before, right? Just like you said, you're like, "Are you getting better?" And they're like, "I don't know. I finished the workout."
[00:46:24] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:46:25] Zach Moore: You know? Um, so like if- I did the thing. You know? Yeah. Well, that's a good start. Yeah. So I think if you chase performance and have goals, like, hey, I wanna hit a, you know, whatever, 315 front squad or, you know what I mean?
[00:46:35] Zach Moore: Just throw out a random number. Um, then many times, you know, you'll, you'll eat if you know your performance is off or something like that. So I think that's another good, like, setting goals and stuff like that around performance can help
[00:46:49] Dr Mike T Nelson: How do you determine how many carbohydrates someone would have? I feel like that's the hardest one for me to figure out.
[00:46:55] Dr Mike T Nelson: Like, we have pretty good research on protein. We've got some pretty good info on fat in terms of, you know, what you need to keep your hormones and all that kind of stuff going on, but I've just seen ranges in carbohydrates that make no sense whatsoever to me. I've had, you know, natural female competitors for physique, I think she weighed 125, super strong, three weeks out from competition eating 250 grams of carbs.
[00:47:22] Dr Mike T Nelson: I've had a dude, strongman competitor guy twice her size that h- he maxed out on, like, 260, which I'd say generally is low for that sport. Um, but... 'Cause I, years ago I kept thinking it's gotta be muscle mass, it's gotta be body size, it's gotta be output, and all those things I think do matter, but I just, I just find, like, on an individual level, the variability from one person to the next is just kind of bonkers.
[00:47:47] Zach Moore: Are you talking about... So I know you're asking directly about carbs, but are, are you also assuming calories are constant? Like, with those
[00:47:54] Dr Mike T Nelson: two people- Yeah, that's the hard part too, is that even their caloric needs seem to vary quite a bit too. Yeah. You know, and that probably goes back to, like, Levine's stuff with NEAT and the, you know, the people who are kinda thrifty versus non-thrifty metabolism and all the different theories with that.
[00:48:10] Dr Mike T Nelson: But yeah, it seems like even just if you go simpler and just go carb- just total calories- And I get it, the equations will generally estimate from lean body mass, and I get it. On a population level, I think those are okay. But I just find on an individual level, it, it just... I've had way too many outliers where the equation that was supposed to make them lose weight made them fat.
[00:48:35] Zach Moore: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:48:37] Dr Mike T Nelson: Does that make sense?
[00:48:38] Zach Moore: So that's why I like to start with where someone's at first. Yeah. Like, I like to see roughly where they're at. I mean, let's assume we have that information first. Then I usually won't make big changes to that. Like, I'll usually skew... If I feel like they're a little on low on carbs or, and high on fat, I'll just kinda skew that.
[00:48:54] Zach Moore: Same with calories. If I feel like they're undereating relative to where they should be, you know, and they're not, like, super overweight, then I probably will try to work those up, just depending on body composition goals. Um, I mean, so that's a little bit of my kind of approach. And normally with fat, you know, I'm usually...
[00:49:12] Zach Moore: And I agree with you, I've seen everything. Like, you know, I've experimented with keto, I've exper- I mean, you name it, I've, I've done it. Um, and I personally do do... I mean, I have, I have IBD, so, like-
[00:49:23] Dr Mike T Nelson: Okay ...
[00:49:23] Zach Moore: I, uh, I have to be pretty cautious and, like, I'm... You know. Anyways, um, so that's one reason why I just do a little better with a little bit f- more fat and less fiber.
[00:49:33] Zach Moore: Um, but, uh, most clients it's somewhere in, like, the 20 to 35% range for calories. I usually do it based on percentage. Um, and then I set carbs last typically. Hmm. So if someone's more of a high intensity type athlete, then I usually keep fat on the lower end, um, so I can push more carbs. And then if someone is more sedentary, then I, I more experiment.
[00:49:56] Zach Moore: I like to run experiments to see how they feel. Um, I'll even shift fat across the day. You know, maybe they prefer more, you know, fat earlier in the day if they're not, you know, more sedentary, more mental cognition and stuff like that, and I'll push carbs later just for more relaxation. Um- You know, kind of stuff like that.
[00:50:14] Zach Moore: But that is my general approach. But I'm like you, I've seen some crazy... I mean, I've had some people that, you know, I usually don't go below, like, um, about .3, .4 grams per kg, uh-
[00:50:27] Dr Mike T Nelson: Okay ...
[00:50:27] Zach Moore: as far as fat. I usually won't... Well, I think .3 is the bare minimum I would-
[00:50:33] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, 'cause you start running into hormonal issues- Yeah
[00:50:34] Dr Mike T Nelson: and all sorts of stuff at that point.
[00:50:36] Zach Moore: Yeah, yep. So, uh, I don't know if I've had one that low, but, like, if I saw that and someone, like, preferred it, I still would-
[00:50:43] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:50:44] Zach Moore: You know, I'd have to see some blood work and stuff, um, and just ask about libido and all that. But, uh, so yeah, that would be the bottom end, around .4 kg as far as fat, if I had to go that low, um, for, like, a competitor or something like that, and everything else would go to carbs.
[00:50:59] Zach Moore: Um, does that answer your question- Yeah,
[00:51:01] Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah ...
[00:51:02] Zach Moore: as far as the
[00:51:02] Dr Mike T Nelson: carbs? Yeah, and I think there's also still this myth that, "Oh, bro, if you eat more carbs, they're gonna turn into fat because of insulin." And I'm like, if... And you know this, right? If you go back and look at, like, the Atkinson studies they did many, many decades ago, and these were not athletes.
[00:51:18] Dr Mike T Nelson: Like, I think at one point in one of the studies, they had them take in 900 grams, I think, of carbohydrates, like four or five days in a row, and basically very minimal of that went to fat, like, so de novo lipogenesis. Like yeah, towards the end of it, you did start storing more of it as fat, but- I think it's underappreciated how beneficial carbohydrates are for performance, and they're not gonna d- directly convert to body fat.
[00:51:47] Dr Mike T Nelson: Like yes, calories in, calories out, all that stuff still matters, but we also have the thermic effect of, you know, those conversions and things like that. And if you're getting a, like you talked about with output, if you're getting a greater output with it, you paradoxically in some cases might even be a little bit negative because- Mm-hmm
[00:52:03] Dr Mike T Nelson: your output is now so much better, you feel better, um, et cetera. So it's, it's hard because, you know, output relates to input and input relates to output. You're not... I think people think that, "Well, my metabolism is just static and it ne- never changes, and we should just be able to figure all these numbers, and I give you your magical macros you have for the rest of your life," and it, it just doesn't work that way.
[00:52:27] Zach Moore: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, and many people when they think of carbs, they're not thinking of just carbs. They're thinking of carbs and fats together, right? Oh, of course. They're thinking of like desserts and- They're thinking of like muffins and
[00:52:36] Dr Mike T Nelson: cake and
[00:52:37] Zach Moore: Yeah, and like, I mean, if you eat a potato, do you eat a plain baked potato?
[00:52:40] Zach Moore: No, you're putting sour cream or cheese- Yep. ... or butter or... You know, same with toast or, you know, almost any carbohydrate you're not doing. So in a way, I feel like low carb is just easier for people because it- Sure ... it just takes some foods off the table that are usually paired with fat that makes it hypercaloric, right?
[00:52:58] Zach Moore: Yep. If you take anything away, if you just did a super high carb, low fat diet, it would also be, you know, very hard to overeat. Like potatoes, I think they rank the highest on the satiety index- Yeah,
[00:53:08] Dr Mike T Nelson: the old potato diet.
[00:53:09] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Or rice. Have you ever heard of Walter Kempner and his rice diet? Yes.
[00:53:13] Zach Moore: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Same thing. So, I mean- Same thing ... yeah, exactly. White rice and fruit. Yep. You know, like- ... it's just so hard to overeat that stuff. Um- So again, I think you just have to be mindful, and I do tell clients this, like, if you're gonna have a lot of carbs in a meal, and this is for more of a general, like keep the fat on the lower end, right?
[00:53:31] Zach Moore: Yeah. So, like, if you get a, you know, a bu- like, a bunch of potatoes or, you know, whatever, like, maybe have a, you know, a New York strip instead of a rib eye, you know? Or like, you know, just be mindful of the fat intake a little bit. Um, but yeah, fat is the easiest macro to store. I mean, we store- Mm-hmm ... it super easily.
[00:53:49] Zach Moore: Dietary carbs are very rarely stored unless, like you said, DNL or something like that. Um, but that's just if you way overdo it. So, um, again, I think, again, it's just hard to choose good carb source for people. You have to prep 'em, like potatoes- Yep ... take work, rice takes work, you know, beans, legumes, uh, whole grains, all those stuff are great, um, but it just takes a little more effort, uh, for most people to kinda, like, fit that in and make a meal taste good.
[00:54:16] Zach Moore: Whereas like pasta and lasagna and, you know, spaghetti and, um, uh, hamburgers and, you know, all that stuff is easy, but it's a fat and carb bomb, right? It's, it's always those two together. Um, so yeah. Yeah. Definitely just learning... I think just learning to cook is a huge skill, or meal prep service or something like that.
[00:54:37] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I feel like I've turned into a banana pusher lately because my excuse now is, "Oh, but I can't eat more carbohydrates, and this one has fat and I need to prep," so I'm like, "Eat a banana."
[00:54:48] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like- I'm like, "Microwave a potato." I mean,
[00:54:51] Dr Mike T Nelson: I, I've even that, you know? Yeah, microwave a potato. Do something like that.
[00:54:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, banana's awesome. Like, if you want the easiest of easiest, like pretty decent, we could argue about micronutrition, portable, like you don't need any food prep, you can just have it sit. You don't even need refrigeration. Like, have a banana is better than probably what you were gonna do otherwise.
[00:55:09] Dr Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:10] Zach Moore: Yep. Yep, exactly. So I mean, I'm boring. Like, I'm a huge fan of just balanced meals for the most part. Yeah, yeah. Again, sometimes I will skew things a little bit, but you know, for example, like if you give someone just a meal that's, you know, super high in fat, like fat slows digestion, so again, you could feel sluggish, a little slower, a little blah.
[00:55:29] Zach Moore: Um, so again, spacing fat intake out across the day just gives you more steady energy. Um, fat also, because it slows digestion, right? It, it provides satiety between meals. Mm-hmm. So, you know, you can last a little bit longer. Um, whereas carbs, you know, they give you a little quicker energy. I mean, this is basic for a lot of people, but a lot of people don't think about this stuff.
[00:55:49] Zach Moore: You know, I tell clients like, "If you're ravenous in the moment, don't go for a handful of nuts or, like, nut butter." Yeah. Like, that's not gonna hit you quick. Have a piece of fruit that's hydrating, that's- Yep ... you know, got some fructose, glucose, like that'll hit you and that'll satiate you. But if you're gonna have to then wait another five hours to eat, like, you know, get some protein and fat in you, um, too, like that's gonna delay- you know, absorption and all that stuff, and just keep you full longer.
[00:56:16] Zach Moore: So, um, again, we also just don't wanna be snacking all day. Like, for optimal digestion, you know, your migrating motor complex, which basically is just, they call it, like, a, a sweep. It sweeps through your stomach, your intestine, and moves things along. And every time you eat, that basically doesn't work. It doesn't...
[00:56:33] Zach Moore: It stops working. So, you know, you don't want food just lingering in your intestine, um, for a long period of time. You want digestion to be moving things through. So I think time between meals is really important. So again, that's where balanced meal is just boring, but uh, it's really kind of kind of what's important.
[00:56:53] Zach Moore: So many people are running into digestion issues nowadays, and again, I think it is a lot of, it's, again, our food culture definitely, but there's also the restrictive diets and things like that that just, you know, kinda run people into issues as well.
[00:57:08] Dr Mike T Nelson: And as you know, like, and studies support this too, that people just don't register snacking.
[00:57:13] Dr Mike T Nelson: Right. Like, it just doesn't seem to register, even on dietary recalls and all that kinda stuff. And, and I remember traveling recently and I bought these little containers of the, of the Blue Diamond almonds or whatever. And I thought, "Oh, this'll be great. I'll just throw a bunch in my bag or whatever." And I'm on the plane eating, I'm going, "What'd they put, like 12 almonds in this fricking bag?"
[00:57:36] Dr Mike T Nelson: And I look at, like, one serving, 120 calories or whatever and I'm like, "Oh yeah, I, I even kinda forgot that that's not many nuts."
[00:57:45] Zach Moore: Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. That, I tell clients that all the time. I'm like, "10 almonds is like- ... you know, a, a lot." Uh, you know, it's like the calories in almost two apples or, like, an apple and a half.
[00:57:56] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. So. Um, yeah, as we wrap up, talk to me a little bit about micronutrition. How do you... Do you do any fancy testing with that? Do you emphasize it? Like, what do you do with the more on the micronutrition side?
[00:58:08] Zach Moore: Yeah, so it depends on client's goals. I do have a lot of clients that I do test, uh, well, yeah, that I do recommend testing.
[00:58:16] Zach Moore: But for most, for a lot of people, I just, I have them track. I'm a big fan of Cronometer. Um, so-
[00:58:21] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, love Cronometer.
[00:58:22] Zach Moore: Shout out to those guys ...
[00:58:23] Dr Mike T Nelson: Cronometer's-
[00:58:23] Zach Moore: Great dudes ... yeah, yeah, definitely. So it's one of the few, um, food tracking apps that allows you to see the micronutrients. Mm-hmm. And so for a lot of clients, I'm just helping them find big gaps there.
[00:58:33] Zach Moore: Like, if you log in m- Cronometer, and also too, you just have, you do have to be careful. Like, you wanna use the NCCDB. Uh, like, if you, if you type a food in their database, there's gonna be multiple options to choose, and the source, you always wanna choose the NCCDB 'cause it has the most micronutrient information, essentially.
[00:58:53] Zach Moore: But, um, you know, with that way, you can really see where a client's lacking, and I am big on micronutrients. Like, I probably, probably focus on that just as much as the macronutrients because, I mean, for one, satiation, how you feel, energy, performance in the long run, that totally depends on micronutrition.
[00:59:13] Zach Moore: I mean, to take food and convert it to energy, you need micronutrients, and many people don't think about that. Like, you can have bottlenecks, all that stuff. So, um- Yeah, so I'll usually look for gaps and just seeing where they're missing the most, and I'll try to plug that in with whole foods as much as possible.
[00:59:31] Zach Moore: Um, I'm not huge on supplements. Like, I will have some clients supplement, but in very, very rarely. Um, I like to really try to get it from whole food as much as possible. Um.
[00:59:43] Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Do you find there's any micronutrient testing that is useful? I, I don't know. I go back and forth on it. I find some things, yes, other things, I, I don't know.
[00:59:56] Zach Moore: Yeah. Yeah. So, I, yeah, when I was talking about the te- I actually don't have people do micronutrient testing very often. I more do, like, sometimes, uh, just bl- basic blood work. Sure. I, I'm with you. Like, I almost never... If I, like, see symptom-wise, um, or if I just find they're always low or something like that, then I will.
[01:00:17] Zach Moore: But I more just try to get them to hit the RDA, uh, at a minimum for that, for that. Yeah. Because I'm with you. I've seen it all over the place, and, um, I've tried to plug in holes, and I'm not seeing a difference with it. Um, so yeah. And most clients just don't wanna even mess with it anyways.
[01:00:38] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Even, like, organic acids testing, like, I, I so want to believe the theory, and I want it to be true so bad, but I just- I could give you case studies where I think it makes a difference, and others where it had made no difference at all for the added expense and complexity and everything else.
[01:00:56] Dr Mike T Nelson: So I can't... You know, something like that test, which is a little bit different, like I, I don't know. I still can't make heads or tails out of it.
[01:01:02] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm the same with gut testing. Like, I don't-
[01:01:05] Dr Mike T Nelson: The gut testing's all over the board.
[01:01:06] Zach Moore: Yeah, I don't do that. Um, if a client brings it to me, I'll look at it, but I can usually figure, I mean, I can usually problem solve, and usually it just tells me what I already know from having them track.
[01:01:18] Dr Mike T Nelson: Correct. Like, "
[01:01:18] Zach Moore: Oh, you're low in acromania," or like, "Oh, you have a lot of, you know, you're lacking XYZ." Well, it's like, well, yeah, you eat absolutely zero fiber or like- Yeah ... no fruits and vegetables, you know? Like, I don't know. It just, it would tell me what I already feel like they should be doing as far as intelligent nutrition.
[01:01:33] Zach Moore: Like, almost never is it like, I don't know, you need to eat a, some obscure food or like do something crazy off the walls. It just doesn't happen. Um-
[01:01:43] Dr Mike T Nelson: And even then, like, you're probably gonna do, like, a rotation of th- of the common offenders- Yeah ... out anyway. Yeah. So even if their gut testing is a disaster, yeah, I'm probably gonna pull gluten from them.
[01:01:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: I might pull dairy. I might pull, you know, different things. But whether I had a gut test or n- or not, I'm, I'm still gonna have to do the thing. If it's an irritant to them, I still have to remove it, you know, from their diet and see how they feel and all that kind of stuff. So on some level it doesn't change a lot of what I would do, like, day to day with someone.
[01:02:14] Zach Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And that's what, I don't know, it's just, that's why coaching is so important, like, having that experience of working with different people, seeing what works, what doesn't work. And, uh, it's all over the place. I mean, I've seen just crazy results of You know, some people tolerate some foods.
[01:02:31] Zach Moore: I'm like, "Oh my God," like most people struggle with that, and like do totally fine with it, whereas someone else is totally different. Um, but the goal is to, to broaden the diet as much as possible eventually. Um- Yeah ... and I do find success with that. Like, you know, going very slow, but introducing things that they don't do well with, and just building the bacteria to digest those things, especially certain fermentable carbohydrates.
[01:02:53] Zach Moore: Um, people have the ability to digest those again. You just have to do it slowly over time, um, and ensure, again, ensuring good gut mo- gut motility. Like that's, that's another really big one, just ensuring you're going to the bathroom every day and, and things like that I think is really important.
[01:03:10] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, 'cause I feel like people will do...
[01:03:12] Dr Mike T Nelson: So I view like carnivore as kind of like the end of the road of an elimination type diet. But once your gut is better, even if, and I have done carnivore with certain people, like you said, the goal is to put these foods back in over time. That doesn't mean if broccoli was your biggest offense, you're gonna day one cook a pound of broccoli- Yeah, exactly
[01:03:30] Dr Mike T Nelson: and see if you can handle it. It's like, no, let's just go real slow. Let's make sure it's good. If it's not, we'll change, we'll try something else. But the goal isn't so that you have to eat carnivore the rest of your life. It's a tool to help, uh, with some people with some things, so.
[01:03:47] Zach Moore: Well, it's the same thing with a low FODMAP, right?
[01:03:49] Zach Moore: It's- Same thing, yeah. Or AIP or
[01:03:52] Dr Mike T Nelson: low FODMAP or- It's
[01:03:52] Zach Moore: not meant to be a, it's not meant to be a long term... Yeah, long term. And yeah, I've done carnivore personally, just my IBD, and it was, yeah, it was amazing actually for me. Um, but yeah, you can slowly introduce just some general things over time and, um- Yeah, like I said, we wanna be resilient.
[01:04:07] Zach Moore: We wanna have the ability to digest a lot of different things. Um, and it seems to be that people are healthier when they do that. But again, I still... I'm not quick to dismiss. I don't know, um, you know, if someone lived on a limited diet to say that they're gonna have more issues. Like, I, I don't know that.
[01:04:24] Zach Moore: But I do wanna see mi- I do think micronutrients are, are very important. So even, you know, a restrictive diet, I think you need to go out of your way to find those foods that kind of fill the gaps, uh, with what you're missing.
[01:04:38] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And also, most people shouldn't be taken down by broccoli. Yeah, no. Like, all these people running around online that are like, "Broccoli's the worst food for you ever," or whatever, whatever.
[01:04:47] Dr Mike T Nelson: The oxalates now, I guess, are the bad evil thing. Yes,
[01:04:50] Zach Moore: goitrogens and yeah.
[01:04:51] Dr Mike T Nelson: You know, and I'm like, uh, okay, like could you find people where that's an irritant? Of course you can. Does that mean everyone should live in fear of these foods with a normal healthy digestion? Like, no.
[01:05:04] Zach Moore: No, no. That's where, yeah, just it's an every diet camp.
[01:05:09] Zach Moore: But, uh, yeah, there's no, no bad foods technically.
[01:05:14] Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Appreciate it. Any quick tips on sleep that you found have been s- implement?
[01:05:22] Zach Moore: Sorry, you f- you froze on me. What,
[01:05:24] Dr Mike T Nelson: what were you- Oh, um, quick tips on, uh, sleep that you find that people can implement? Because, so I find whatever I can do to increase their quality of sleep first, because trying to get them to sleep another one to two to three hours per day or whatever, 'cause if Bob sleeps four and a half hours a night, oof.
[01:05:43] Dr Mike T Nelson: Like finding any amount of time in somebody's schedule's already hard enough, but if I can get them to sleep a little bit better, that's usually where I, I would start.
[01:05:51] Zach Moore: Yeah. Yep. Oh, goodness. I mean, I'm really big on, like circadian rhythm and light. Mm-hmm. I do think that makes a huge difference. So first thing in the morning, if you can, just get some light in your eyes.
[01:06:03] Zach Moore: Yep. Like light is, it's what's called a zeitgeber, but it, you know, signals to your body that, hey, it's light. It's day. It's like time to move, be up, be ready. And then at night, limit artificial light as much as you can. Um, you know, I think those are really big. I think right now anyways, for me, temperature.
[01:06:22] Zach Moore: Mm. Like temperature is really, really big 'cause it's so hot. If I'm sweating, like I just, I can't sleep. Um, so I mean, those are two big ones that I focus on with a lot of people. Um, and then it's just having a wind down routine. Like as much as possible, like be consistent with when you get up and go to bed, as much as you can.
[01:06:44] Zach Moore: Even if it's four hours, like be consistent with those four hours because your body will learn that routine and rhythm and, um- You know, and you're more likely to fall asleep, uh, if your body knows that it's that time. We're just so random with what we're doing. Your body doesn't know if it's night, if it's day, if it's supposed to be running from a tiger or, you know, relaxing.
[01:07:05] Zach Moore: Like, it just, you know, it's kind of all over the place. So I'm really big on consistency with, um, going to bed, getting up. Again, within reason of what someone's schedule allows.
[01:07:15] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Do you use anything to cool your, your bed at night? Do you use, like, a Ooler or Eight Sleep or anything like that?
[01:07:22] Zach Moore: No. I'm such, I'm such a tightwad that I haven't invested- Even though I know that stuff is so important.
[01:07:28] Zach Moore: Um, I have one client, we need to talk about this Shiftwave chair. He is like... I know you've messed with that. Well, we need to talk about it- Yeah, I got one right here in my living room ... offline. I know. We can talk offline about that. But it's, like, changed his life. Like, he is like- Oh ... it is the greatest thing in the world.
[01:07:41] Zach Moore: Tell
[01:07:41] Dr Mike T Nelson: me about it now. Uh- We'll just
[01:07:42] Zach Moore: leave it
[01:07:42] Dr Mike T Nelson: on the podcast if you want to. Yeah, I
[01:07:43] Zach Moore: mean, he just... Uh, but that's all I got. I mean, he just uses it throughout the day. I, I have one of my pro athletes that loves it. Um- So it just seems to be a game changer. I don't know a ton about it besides, you know, I mean, just nervous system kind of manipulation, if you will.
[01:07:59] Zach Moore: Um, but how have you found it? I mean, made a big deal? Yeah, it's,
[01:08:05] Dr Mike T Nelson: it's one of those things. So I first met the guys at the Parker University conference last March. And you know how you go to these conferences, and the conference was amazing. Like, uh, great speakers. Got to see my buddy, you know, Kelly Starrett.
[01:08:16] Dr Mike T Nelson: Dan John was there, a bunch of people. Uh, Andy Galpin was there, Dan Garner, all those guys. So super fun, wonderful time. Conference was amazing. And towards the end of the first day, it was a two-day thing, I see this thing that says, "Oh, you know, regenerate your, your nervous system," or recovery, regenerate, something like that.
[01:08:35] Dr Mike T Nelson: And my first thought is after you've gone to a bunch of these, you see lots of vendors, you're like, "Okay, whatever." Like, I'm... It sounds bad, but I'm just used to kinda being disappointed that the, the feeling, the sensation, the data just never really matches the claims. But I'm like, "Hey, you know, I'll go and check it out."
[01:08:52] Dr Mike T Nelson: And, and I tried it for just 10 minutes, and I was like, "Oh, that was pretty cool. Like, I could actually feel a difference in just, like, 10 minutes." And so I ended up talking to the guy there for a while, and he said, "Yeah, you know, you should just come back tomorrow." And so the next day, I, I got my wife, I snuck her into the conference on the last day.
[01:09:11] Dr Mike T Nelson: I said, "Honey, you gotta go try this thing," 'cause I'm like, you know, maybe it was just me. Maybe I'm just a weirdo. I respond to this. And she was like, "Oh, wow, this is, like, super cool." And so then I pestered the poor guy for like two hours with, like- Yeah ... all my questions about, "Well, how does it work, and what does it do?"
[01:09:26] Dr Mike T Nelson: And oh, you look at HRV. Well, you could gate it to HRV with biofeedback. And they're like, "Oh, yeah, we're already working on that." And the long story short, I just kept pestering with a bunch of stuff. And so since I've been able to use it more chronically, the biggest thing I've noticed, and especially with clients, is to downregulate I think is super beneficial.
[01:09:47] Dr Mike T Nelson: Because, like, yes, all things being equal, do you need technology? No. Could you go outside and do a Zen-style meditation, stare at a tree or, or... There's plenty of things you could do. Yes, but God, getting people to do those things is so incredibly difficult. Or my, my sales pitch for the chair now is that, okay, if you have it, just do this protocol, tell them what to do, and this amount of time, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever.
[01:10:13] Dr Mike T Nelson: And my pitch to them is you just have to sit down and do the thing, you know? So you get over this, like, inertia of, oh, you know, meditation, my mind always wanders and this and that, and it's kinda hot outside. And you know, like all the things you think about why you don't wanna do it. Um, and there has, there's some upregulation programs that are pretty good that do, like, some Wim Hof stuff.
[01:10:34] Dr Mike T Nelson: But I found the, the downregulation makes a big difference. And the, the thing that surprised me the most was on all my sleep metrics, doesn't matter, I've used Garmin, I've got a Soltec device, I've got an Oura- Whenever I do, like, a downregulation protocol during the day for 10 to 30 minutes, my deep sleep at night is almost always substantially better.
[01:10:57] Dr Mike T Nelson: Not by, like, a couple minutes- Okay ... by, like, quite a bit better. My deep sleep normally at night on any wearable is just trash anyway. But the thing that surprised me the most was it didn't matter necessarily when I did it during the day. Like, I could do it at 11, I could do it at 2, I could do it at 5. It...
[01:11:13] Dr Mike T Nelson: Th- the time of day didn't seem to make- Oh, man ... any difference. Because I always thought if I do it before bed, then it'll be beneficial because I'm in a more parasympathetic state to get more tran- translation and deep sleep, et cetera, and that is true. Um, and I've noticed that with a couple clients too.
[01:11:28] Dr Mike T Nelson: And then the last thing is, um, even people I've had come over to just do hands-on sessions and stuff, um, I've had them, you know, try it out, and the crazy part is, like, everyone who's come back again is like, "Oh, I wanna do that again." Like, they actually wanted to do it, which is pretty rare to get someone to want- Yeah, yeah
[01:11:47] Dr Mike T Nelson: to actually downregulate.
[01:11:49] Zach Moore: Yeah, yeah. And that may be the biggest benefit for him too. Um, but yeah, he just loves it. He even, like, spoke for them. They sent him an extra one. He's like... I don't know. He's big into it. Yeah. So he always wants me to ask you what your favorite tracks are and all that stuff.
[01:12:03] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[01:12:03] Dr Mike T Nelson: We'll talk offline. I'll give him whatever I've been doing. So, um-
[01:12:05] Zach Moore: Yeah ...
[01:12:06] Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah. And full disclosure, I am an affiliate for Shiftwave now, so if people have any questions or, or anything like that, and just because I'm like, "Well, I'll... You know, I'll be promoting it," because it's... You know, rarely do you run across stuff where it works, and acutely the person reports that they feel a difference.
[01:12:24] Zach Moore: Yeah.
[01:12:24] Dr Mike T Nelson: Like, I like red light, I like some other stuff. I think all... There's a lot of things that can be beneficial, but you don't feel a big difference after a single session. And I think if you feel that difference, that makes compliance so much easier for people to do the thing that is beneficial.
[01:12:40] Zach Moore: Yeah.
[01:12:41] Zach Moore: Yeah, I think I have three clients, and all of them say, yeah, acutely they feel, they feel a big difference, and just chronically they... I mean, they love it. Yeah.
[01:12:49] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Cool.
[01:12:50] Zach Moore: Cool.
[01:12:50] Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Well, where can people find out more about you now that we did our Shiftwave commercial?
[01:12:55] Zach Moore: Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, so I'm, I'm-
[01:12:57] Dr Mike T Nelson: Which is cool.
[01:12:57] Dr Mike T Nelson: I love those guys.
[01:12:58] Zach Moore: Yeah, so I- Tell us more about you.
[01:12:59] Dr Mike T Nelson: Where are you at?
[01:13:00] Zach Moore: I have a website. There's hardly anything on there right now. It's just zmoore.com. Uh, I think I'm on Instagram as Zach, Z-A-C-H-M, Fitness, ZachMFitness. I don't post a lot, but you can find a link to, you know, reach out to me or my email or anything like that, and I love to talk about this stuff.
[01:13:18] Zach Moore: Super passionate. Uh, like I said, coach people online, in person, nutrition, exercise, um- Yeah. I think that's it.
[01:13:25] Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. And where are you at in person if people wanna stop by and train in your hot garage?
[01:13:30] Zach Moore: Yeah, so I am in good old Southern Indiana, uh, where Larry Bird grew up.
[01:13:34] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh,
[01:13:35] Zach Moore: okay. That's about the only thing that people know.
[01:13:36] Zach Moore: It's about an hour north of Louisville, an hour south of Bloomington, Indiana-
[01:13:41] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, okay. Cool ...
[01:13:42] Zach Moore: where IU is, Indiana University.
[01:13:44] Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. And they can contact you through the website then?
[01:13:46] Zach Moore: Yes.
[01:13:47] Dr Mike T Nelson: Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, buddy. I really appreciate it, and, uh, thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge.
[01:13:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: I really appreciate it. This was great.
[01:13:54] Zach Moore: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Mike.
[01:13:56] Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Thank you.
[01:13:57] Zach Moore: Yep.