In this episode of the Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with Denmark-based coach and hybrid athlete Andreas Stobberup to talk about bridging serious strength training with high-level endurance performance. Andreas shares his journey from peaking around 250 lbs with a 405 bench and 600+ squat to dropping to 205 and completing a full Ironman in 9:52—while continuing to coach athletes across disciplines. We discuss the reality gap between amateur and elite performance, how influencer culture often strips context from training advice, and why fundamentals still win: training, nutrition, sleep, and measurable outputs. We break down common misunderstandings around Zone 2 training, why pros don’t train the way social media says they do, and how strength athletes can intelligently add conditioning without compromising lifting. We also cover VO₂ max development, microdosing cardio, output-based tracking (times, power, lactate), and how to think about HRV and wearable data in context. If you’re interested in hybrid training, improving conditioning without sacrificing muscle, or understanding how to measure what actually matters, this one is packed with practical insight. Sponsors: Daily Fitness Insider Newsletter: https://flex-diet.kit.com/bfa1510fa8
In this episode of the Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with Denmark-based coach and hybrid athlete Andreas Stobberup to talk about bridging serious strength training with high-level endurance performance.
Andreas shares his journey from peaking around 250 lbs with a 405 bench and 600+ squat to dropping to 205 and completing a full Ironman in 9:52—while continuing to coach athletes across disciplines. We discuss the reality gap between amateur and elite performance, how influencer culture often strips context from training advice, and why fundamentals still win: training, nutrition, sleep, and measurable outputs.
We break down common misunderstandings around Zone 2 training, why pros don’t train the way social media says they do, and how strength athletes can intelligently add conditioning without compromising lifting. We also cover VO₂ max development, microdosing cardio, output-based tracking (times, power, lactate), and how to think about HRV and wearable data in context.
If you’re interested in hybrid training, improving conditioning without sacrificing muscle, or understanding how to measure what actually matters, this one is packed with practical insight.
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mike T Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things to increase muscle, improve performance, improve your body composition, and do all of it within a flexible framework. And today on the podcast, we've got all the way from Denmark, Andreas Sta, and we are talking about.
I guess you could consider this more of a hybrid athlete, although we kind of cover a huge range of, of topics. Um, so I had some really great discussions with him over Instagram and wanted to have him on the podcast. So he has done pretty high level things in both sports. So his peak strength in 2020 was just under.
Uh, six feet tall, 250 pound bench 4 0 5. Deadlift. Squat was well [00:01:00] above, uh, 600, uh, while still playing sports. Uh, and then he switched to Ironman endurance and worked out hard and ended up dropping, um, a ton of weight and went from a weight of two 50 down to 2 0 5 after six months. And after training for 10 months, completed a full Ironman in nine of 52.
So he is worked with other athletes and done both ends of the spectrum to a high level himself. So wanted to get him on the podcast to talk about all the different aspects that go into that. And if you're interested in learning more about him, we'll put all of the great links and. Everything there for you to check out down below.
Uh, and if you want to learn more about myself, you can do that also. And the best place [00:02:00] there is gonna be the newsletter. So I send out content, uh, pretty much daily, try to make them informative, just like the podcast. And then also, um, try to make them entertaining as well. So, uh, check those out below. And I think you'll enjoy this extremely wide ranging conversation from, oh man, everything from y lifters need aerobic work.
So VO two max old school, kind of bodybuilding, genetic freak, su train, uh, influencer stuff, measuring outputs, not hype. How do you individualize your response? Um, what are some ways to know limits when you're working with. Uh, everything from CrossFit athletes and beyond, and just a really wide range of stuff that I think you will enjoy.
So this is kind of a hodgepodge of all things kind of [00:03:00] hybrid athletics. So enjoy the podcast and as always, thank you so much for listening.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Hi.
Andreas Stobberup: How are you?
Dr Mike T Nelson : I'm good. How are you doing?
Andreas Stobberup: Good for, thank you for having me
Dr Mike T Nelson : so from your personal experience, what is kind of the farthest you've been on the. Like strengthen power lifting side versus all the way to the endurance side, because I know you said, and I've kind followed some of your stuff and poked around and it looks like you have pretty, I'd say significant experience both as an athlete and coaching other people on the, the spectrum, which is pretty rare.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, I think as a setup, I've been doing sport my entire life. But really fell in love with the bodybuilding, with the buying, the encyclopedia of bodybuilding with Arnold and yeah, the first, I, I got found myself over here. Yeah. And then, then the first video DVDI bought was right.
When [00:04:00] YouTube started, it was Ronnie Coleman, Oh, sure. Unbelievable. Yeah, and I watched that. So that was pretty much my training rash regime when I started lifting at 1213. But yeah, buddy. Yeah, I guess that really just taught me how to like, work hard in the gym, like really just falling in love with that and and learning intensity and work ethic in that perspective.
And then as the years went on, I went more and more into the, the science part of it. And also with YouTube and social media in general information was easier to come by. I've read a lot of on bodybuilding.com followed a lot of lane Northern stuff early on. Really?
I know. I've known Lane for many years. Yeah. And, and I think he also I kind of saw that [00:05:00] with him, like the, the scientific side, but coupled with the intensity with, with what he was doing. And then the first program I actually bought was was from Ben Colby and the MI 40 guys.
Ben's a good buddy of mine. I love Ben. Yeah. Yeah. It, it was, it was real great. And that's like 10 years ago when I believe that the the way that they trained was quite new, like using this, yeah, at least in the body building, pro science world. Applying strength curves and all of that to training.
And that really accelerated my, my own training. And of course, just following the grades both natural and enhanced of course. But I started to focus on power lifting a bit [00:06:00] more after some time when you hit some plateaus. And then I, I peaked out at about as I said, 250 pounds.
Mm-hmm. I've been, I've benched 4 0 5 and dead lifted. Oh, nice. And squat and squatted north of 600 pounds for reps. So oh, that's great. So, so I, I've been quite, as far as, I, not as I believe I probably could, but spent five years just adding a few pounds here and there. And then then during that time I spent.
30, 40 hours a week on the floor training people and also coaching sports teams and, and so on. So I had a I've, I've trained a lot of people both from, children to to very old people and then [00:07:00] also also very talented people and elites. So I think I've seen the, the spectrum of people.
I've had the privilege of seeing a few of those genetic anomalies which I think is is an experience you kind of need to have. Oh yeah. Or at least, or at least like, try, try to be around them. Those people who just. Haven't trained before and just pull 500 pounds off the floor the first time they tried the deadlift.
And then it's like, yeah, yeah. When, when you see that, I think it puts some things into perspective that that you certainly don't get on on social media. Yeah,
Dr Mike T Nelson : I think that was Andy Bolton, right? One of the first guys to pull a thousand pounds. I think he said, correct me if I'm wrong, the first time he deadlift, I think was 500 and he squatted 400.
I think that was the [00:08:00] first time he touched a weight. Now granted, he, you know, added a lot of pounds to that over many years, but that's bananas.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah. Yeah. It's just when you see those people it's just it makes you question everything when you've trained as artist, you have both like 15 years.
Yeah. But but, but it's great. Great seeing it. But as I said, I, I then I kind of felt like I've maxed out and I've al always played a lot of sports. I'm quite competitive in that sense. And then with COVID hitting, I've always had this endurance or at least doing hard stuff. I kind of gravitate towards that.
And me and my friend, we we had the goal of of doing an Ironman. And I was not really paying much attention to. What people say is, [00:09:00] is possible or not possible. I just had a big brother who had done it, and he is set a time, and that was really the goal. And then then I think if I, then I, I know that having the, the knowledge of physiology and knowing how to find the information you need and then cobble it with just work ethic, then I just know if I apply it for a long time now, years, then you can move really far in another direction without having any like particular gifts in, in, in this endurance area compared to to strength.
Because the funny thing is I've trained with one of my best friends the entire time. We did the strength training and I ended up gaining [00:10:00] 65, 75 more pounds of muscle than him during those Oh, wow. 15 years. He's he is very good at the endurance stuff, but I think it just it, it shows like what, what you can what your genes can affect when you actually work just as hard as somebody else.
But now with the endurance side, like five years in, I've applied everything I know really. And starting to move towards what you would call respectable times. I know the longer it gets, the better I am. So the. That's one of the thing we discussed briefly is that there needs to be some sort of respect for what [00:11:00] pros or elites are actually able to do.
And I think I think social media with with influences, they they muddied the water there somehow. Like glorifying a a, a fast time in a marathon, for example. It's not that it, it's bad, but still from from a three hour marathon to a two hour Mel marathon, that's a really big.
Gap. But those are like another universes. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's, it, it, it's, it's, it's so crazy. But but I think a lot of the information on social media comes from this this middle part of the equation where influencers are almost they're capable of living like pro athletes without actually being that good.
Mm-hmm. And I think that can create a little [00:12:00] bit of trouble sometimes where they like I would say almost all Instagram posts, they have like this chat GBT feel of it now. It's you do this wrong. You should be doing this. This is the five training methods that I've used to do this. And I think that that
Dr Mike T Nelson : a lot of 'em don't
Andreas Stobberup: coach
Dr Mike T Nelson : anyone either,
Andreas Stobberup: so, no, exactly.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. That's the, the running joke on the inside is they can spend their whole time doing content and doing and telling you all these things and Okay. Maybe, or maybe not that applies to their ability, like you said, which I agree with. But like you said, if you haven't coached anyone or worked with anyone on the spectrum, like you don't really have a frame of reference of what's gonna be best for an individual.
It just feels like it's, everything is collapsing towards the average in terms of information. And if you can just pick out one thing that everyone hates [00:13:00] and then use that as like your hook to, to get attention, and then you could just say whatever you want after that. And nobody seems to. Crosscheck it to see, oh, have you used this method with anyone?
Have you applied this to anyone? Oh, do you actually make a living? Shocker coaching people? Do you, do people pay you money to get a result? And do they get a result that's, ah, no, he looks good naked. He is got an okay time.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly it. Like it's, it's this pro I think that everybody should be very proud of any individual achievement that, that, that they if they complete like a marathon or something, they should be, be really proud of that.
But there's this thing where people turn it into like this great achievement in the broader spectrum where they push not necessarily wrong knowledge, but but it has no no no root in, in science and no, actually it's not [00:14:00] applicable for, for people. So this. This thing of like, I've, they, they've run a 5K in 20 minutes.
That, that, that's great. But if you talk to a coach that coach people who run a 5K in 13 minutes, that's an entirely different ball game. And I think that's where people need to be aware of how to coach the, the different populations really. Because I've, I can guarantee you, I can make the perfect training program and diet and I've done that for a lot of people, but I've just get, gotten the feedback when I was young, well, I'm not doing that.
So then you're off to off to a rough start. And that really taught me a lot about how how I think that, you, you, you have to be careful not to take your [00:15:00] own passion and then just force it down the throat of people who are not interested in it, if they just want to be healthy. But with, with with the clients you have and, and your audience, I think it's it's they are interested in testing different things out applying the science on, on, on, and testing all different things.
Like I said I think the biggest benefit for most people with doing like an ice bath is them not being on the phone. But, but again, I think that's mainly the point I'm making is that you can do an ice bath five times a week if you really enjoy it. But if if you think it improves your health and performance more than actually exercising 30 minutes, five times a week, then you're off the mark.
And I think sometimes [00:16:00] influences push the magic pill a bit too much now. So, so that's my long intro to, to where I am at the moment. But but I think I've been following your stuff also for a long time. Oh, thank you. And, and and try basic training. Really, enjoyed that and applied it a lot.
Like I, I think I've been so lucky of being able to, on the journey from the beginning with some people when the information comes out. So you've been able to pick what really fits with your coaching philosophy along the way. And I think it's it's, it's great when when, when smart people disagree because you get some real good con conversations out of it.
So that's why I really enjoy hearing the podcast you have when you have some of these people on that I [00:17:00] don't think get enough attention in the training world because of yeah, I guess they're just not influencers in that sense. So I think it's, I feel lucky and privileged to be on because it's it's it's an, it's a world for me that means so much. It's, it is a big passion for me. And I think with strength training and now endurance I think where I'm at now in my life, I start to understand what I've heard. Some of you people that are a bit older than me talk about like during the years where you, where 10 years ago I might have disagree, but now like you grow into it and learn from what's been said.
I think that's really a, a cool full circle moment for me at least.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. No, that's great. And yeah, I mean, on the podcast I just, [00:18:00] it's generally people I just want to have a discussion with or people I've had really good discussions with in private that I think other people need to hear and. You know, if I get someone super famous that I want to talk to, I'll have 'em on the podcast.
I'm not gonna turn down any exposure or anything like that and more exposure I can get. I'm definitely all for, but I don't want it to be at the expense of the conversations. Like, I think so far, I've had one person who was a cold intro and that was only a referral from somebody else. You know, another ones have been, you know, a couple referrals from people I trust.
And then you look into their stuff, you read their stuff, you're like, oh yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. Like, this'll be a, a fun conversation. And then, you know, kind of back to what you were saying about people in their times and stuff like that, it's, it's this weird dichotomy, I think, like you mentioned, to be happy about what your, you know, personal best and your personal records are and, you know, constantly getting improving as an [00:19:00] individual.
On the flip side, then also being realistically of how you stand up to what the elite people in that field are doing. And I think you can do both, but I just see more people yelling from the rooftops that they're training methods are the best, but they're unfortunately doing it in sports that you can go look to see what the best times in the world are.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah,
Dr Mike T Nelson : exactly. It's a little bit harder with, you know, soccer and football and, you know, fuzzy sports like that. And, you know, I remember being in competing in grip sport in Finland and it was amazing opportunity. You know, I got a special invite to show up, but on the flip side, I was under no illusions that I was gonna win or beat any of these people.
And I got my ass handed to me, which was fine. It was just, it was great just to be there. And everyone was super cool and super nice and so helpful. And there was actually a crowd of a ton of people at this, you know, finish resort and it was an amazing experience. But people are like, aren't you? [00:20:00] Kind of mad you didn't win.
I'm like, no. Like I, there's nothing that's gonna, I'm gonna do that's magically gonna add like 150 or 200 pounds to my actual deadlift to, you know, to compete in some of these events. But to do it and to have the experience. And then I think also just to see what's possible. You know, like in here, I spent many years lifting with Adam Glass.
So to watch him pick up the, you know, inch dumbbell for hundreds of reps some days, you know, it's like, oh yeah, okay. I guess it is possible. You know? So I think now with video and other things like that, if you want to go search for it, I think you can find a lot more things that are being done. So I think on one hand it does make it easier than ever.
But I, it seems weird to me how. Some people will put someone up on a pedestal for a certain performance or time when it's, it's good, but not really as amazing as what the person [00:21:00] says it is. But again, maybe it's just people believe everything and just want to hear and confirm their bias. Very similar to what you said about I'm a big fan.
I think ice baths are useful, but I'm under no illusion that they're replacing exercise. I think red light is useful under some circumstances. I think it can be very good single digit percentage, probably at best. You know, you're not replacing sprints or intervals or lifting or, I dunno what it's like in Denmark, but in the US if I hear.
One more person claimed that this peptide does, you know, things for your mitochondria and they never mentioned fricking aerobic exercise. Once I'm gonna scream again. There might be benefits, there might be times and places. I've used peptides in the past, you know, with a physician. But I think sometimes it's, we lose track of the, the basics are always gonna be the basics and are always gonna be working.
It's just how do you make [00:22:00] those principles work for you as an individual. And I think that's, that should be the basis or the start of any program. And in, by all means, like I use red light, I use a lot of other stuff with, with clients when it's useful, but I'm not gonna have them start there and be like, ah, let's just do red light.
Ah, don't worry about exercise.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, no, I, I really I completely agree. I actually, I actually think that like with, with amateurs or like beginners, they, they just need to. Get moving just to do something. Sure. Fun, something they enjoy. Strength train a couple of times a week would be great. But really just start to get moving.
And then I think you hit this, this sweet spot with like where you get, where you become intermediate. I actually think that's where you get the biggest benefit of doing all these extra things when you're like when you have [00:23:00] if you strength train three times a week, you have a couple of days of cardio and you enjoy like doing sauna and ice bath and red light therapy or whatever else that you either it's you, you, you can measure a benefit or you just get a big placebo effect of it, then I think it's, it's, it's really it's really worth, to keep doing.
Then I, I see like the, the more advanced people get, again, like the more, it kind of goes back to the basics. Like then it becomes more and more like volume, like trying to push that as far as possible. The nutrition part or really like, just trying to get in and enough calories becomes like the a, a big focus point and then more sleep, it becomes like the biggest focus point again.
So I think it tends to swing [00:24:00] back a bit when you start to become like, elite or like pro and especially the world world's best. Not that they don't do supplements and all of these things. Yeah. But but they won't they won't do a nice bath if it means that they have to skip two hours of sleep, that's not happening.
So so I think that's, that's one of the things I've found at least is that I, all my life, I've tested all the new gadgets, all the new stuff. I've done like cold showers like for years. Like just that as I finish a bath with that and then just warm up naturally after that.
And and I've, with endurance, I've applied a lot of heat training trying to do that stuff. Where, where, where we know there are big performance gains. But I've also had like the oral ring. [00:25:00] I've had that for eight years now, I think. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, I saw it. And I've slept with it for eight years, so I have that data and just testing.
A lot of stuff out that I think is important when you're like if you're passionate about it. The, the big thing with with pros is that they have a team of experts around them. And I think when you when you're not at a point where you, you are that privilege to have like an expert in all the areas, then you need to gravitate more to like get the advice of like people who know more about a lot of different stuff because you get big benefits of just doing something, like getting 80% of the way will give you a lot of benefits where the pros will spend almost all their time of like doing very few things, a hundred [00:26:00] percent.
So I think I think that's where where. It like the pendulum, it swings back when you reach a certain point, then it becomes you need to do more vol volume. You need to do it, and by that you need to eat a lot more. And and and then by default sleep a lot more. And if you don't do that, you'll just end up injured and no small gadget or anything can, can fix that.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And you've probably seen that, I've seen this with a few times, I won't name any names, but high level athletes who have a lot of money. It seems like the progression is exactly what you said. They, they almost get a little bit too fancy for their own good and there's no one in charge of coordinating these different teams.
Like, you know, they may have their own nutritionist, they may have their own agent, they've got a guy doing skills, technical stuff. They've got a lot of times a myth, a therapist of some form that travels, you know, [00:27:00] with them. And maybe a lot of times they employ, they go visit someone and they say, oh, this X, y, Z recovery thing is the thing you need to do.
And then they add another person and another person, and pretty soon you realize that the basics train of their training and the output quality of their training is, is unfortunately going down. And then their performance usually doesn't do good for a season or two. And then they, they, they see the light and they go, oh.
And then they go back to basics again. And then it just, the cycle kind of, sort
Andreas Stobberup: of repeats
Dr Mike T Nelson : over time.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah. And, and I think that that goes back to like, I, I think a lot of people who are not like emerged or in an industry, like they really follow like cycling or running or something like that, they don't really know what the best of the best are doing because they, yeah.
A lot of times they're not public with it on purpose. Yeah, no, I, I like, like when you see some of the, the pros, there's this thing about some [00:28:00] two training now that's everywhere where it's like oh yeah. It, it's just the, the thing that they think all the pros are doing. But the, and the five zone model, like pros are doing zone one, they're not doing zone two.
Like there are, they have such exceptional high outputs that doing top zone two work is extremely difficult, really. There's this Norwegian cyclist, Jonas Abrahamson, he just posted he did like eight times 20 minutes of LT one work with that's 1.2 millimoles lactate for him. And his average watts was 373.
So, so, so I think that might not mean a lot to many people. It's so bonkers. But, but that's, that's his top zone two, and he does eight times, 20 minutes of that. Like, just [00:29:00] imagine that if you have to do that output for five hours in a row, which he can do but what's the limiting factor there? How many cals can he get stuffed in his head every day and during training just to keep that up?
So I think people misinterpret that. He actually also just today posted like two weeks trainings camp where he did like 60 hours of training those two weeks. And and he did like 47 of those hours in song one. And then he had like some intervals all over the place. But that's really like I think that's what people are missing.
Then they see this 80 20 rule of zone two and they start doing that where you have like a guy who's never trained before who's like only able to walk around because his heart rate is going to spike. It's like, no, you don't need to do zone two. You [00:30:00] just need to do zone four or five. Like just get your heart rate up.
Just try to get in shape before you start to do anything else really. So I think that's that's one of the one of the other reasons of of social media influences it in a bad direction because trends get spread around when that's not really what the. Are doing, and it doesn't really apply to amateurs either.
So that's that's just an example of it. I can see for myself, like the good thing about the, or ring if you agree, if it's accurate or not that's probably debatable, but I can see my resting heart rate has dropped 15 beats the last five years. And my HRE has doubled and I've also measured that with heart rate strep.
So I think if you apply science and [00:31:00] what and you know a little bit about physiology, I don't think you need to have a PhD such as yourself. But if you're, you're just science interested and try to follow people that are actually knowledgeable about. What they're doing. I think you'll get much more out of those few hours you train compared to like following some influencer who's actually doing it full-time.
But they get paid by Instagram and not because they are sponsored Nike athlete. Something like that.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And if a tip for people listening is if, like you did, if you just measure output, you, you will kind of figure stuff out over time, right? And you can have like a direct output, like a time, a performance.
You could look at lactate, you could baseline 2K on a rower. There's a whole bunch of obviously bike tests. You know, pick, pick something, just even average heart rate over your zone two, whatever it is. And then measure like [00:32:00] some surrogate outputs, like resting heart rate, HRV, respiratory rate. You know, whatever, some of these markers you can now get from the Ora ring, which I really like very easily, like for basically zero cost once you've acquired the device.
And it is maybe a membership cost, but but typically I see people are like, oh, I did zone two and it's amazing for you and it'll help increase your VO two max and your aerobic capacity. And well, I feel better. I was like, okay, like show me, show me your before and after numbers. Like, show me what was your VO two max?
We can argue about the method you used to do it, but just pick something 12 minute Cooper run test 2K in the row or whatever. You did your zone two, two to three hours, how you measured zone two and then eight weeks, 12 weeks later, what was your difference? And I, I did this a while ago and it kind of pissed off a bunch of people, but the only people who I saw anecdotally.
Report any increase in VO two max were people who were very high level [00:33:00] cyclists in this case, and I would argue most of them were probably overreached. And the fact that you just had 'em do zone two was like a de training thing to get 'em back to a semi-functional athlete again. Right? I don't, I'm not convinced even in that case, the zone two was all that beneficial.
I think they got a result from it. But no, nobody could put even an end of one of like, oh man, I did a lot of zone two and my aerobic went up by this. And I'm probably guilty of this. I mean, you go back three, four years of my stuff, you can find that I was a big proponent of zone two and I, I did a fair amount of it.
I tried doing a fair amount with athletes and people of all types and the more I kept reading the research and even then we were still doing some interval work. I, I just started becoming more and more convinced that it just wasn't doing anything. Now again, is zone two again, better than nothing. Of course.
Like if the average person did more movement and it's not high intensity, I do think there's a benefit to that, but in terms [00:34:00] of benefit of aerobic capacity or max or whatever you wanna look at, I just, I don't think it, it, it transfers that well either.
Andreas Stobberup: No. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, it's just this thing that you need to train all the zones.
You need to hit all the different intensities that you're planning to train, and then of the more you train, the easier, most of it just has to become for you to tolerate the volume. Correct. Because volume really is like the, the, the. The thing that will enhance your performance the most, like path with intensity.
But, but like really people who will do a ton of volume, they will just, they'll be good and because of all the volume they do and, and that'll take you really far. But then people get this trend of we'll need to do less and then more intensity and then it sort of swings back to [00:35:00] like we need to do all the different intensities, like sweet spot training or like lactate threshold training especially LT two training.
But it all comes from like the best athletes in the world with like. Some of the studies is like 1500 hours of training a year for some of the best endurance athletes in the world. And you are probably not gonna be able to recover from doing like the bodybuilding workouts of of green or Dora and Yates or whatever if, if you're not on a ton of gear because that's what it's it's, it's suited for them.
So like tolerating 40 sets of volume for your chest, that takes many years to be able to, to do that. And and I think that that's, well, I, I'm also very guilty of it, like like seeing people and then trying to apply that to myself [00:36:00] only to realize that they are completely, it's a completely different ball game that they're playing.
And then, then I think what learns you the most is when you have clients that you actually train during a long stretch of time. I've had clients for, for 5, 6, 7 years. And when you see what, what you're able to do with different people both with endurance and strength training, like just switching it up when you work with them for a long time you can see that physiology is, is the same for everybody basically, but how well people, respond to stimulus is very different.
But that doesn't mean that it's not the same mechanisms that that are working.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. The biggest thing, the two things that jump out to me on that, which I've told [00:37:00] before on the podcast is. Seeing Stu Phillips present at A CSM and God, what was it? It was like 2004, maybe 2005 was in, I can't remember directly, but it was in Washington and it was the first time I was able to see him present.
Had read a bunch of his stuff for years and he presented this graph of one of the first studies they did looking at chronic response to hypertrophy training. And I think they were looking at I can't remember the program they're looking at, but I think it was a 12 week study. And nutrition was relatively fixed.
No, actually it wasn't. I take that back. They had hit a minimum amount of protein. That's some minimums to hit, but that, that was it. They just didn't want anyone to have super deficient protein. And he shows the scatterplot. Most people are kind of in the middle. There's two people that are like one or two standard deviations way above everyone else.
And there was one poor bastard who technically got worse. And I remember looking at that graph going. What the hell happened to that poor bastard at the [00:38:00] bottom who somehow got a little bit smaller and these two people at the top and the two people at the top, he called the beef brothers, or these two guys who were brothers lived on a farm and, you know, everyone did the same program, but they just got astronomically more response.
And so that's what then led him and I think it was one of his grad students Daniel West to look at the hormone hypothesis thing. Well, maybe if some people have more of a higher hormone output or doing exercises post, you know, squat and things like that, which all turned out to be, it didn't really matter a whole lot.
Maybe it's androgen receptor and a bunch of other things now. But there was clearly we can argue about the reason genetics, my nuclear domain, who knows. I'll link to a podcast with Dr. Mike Roberts where he talked about a lot of these things and he's way more the expert in that than I am. But there was no doubt that these two people did dramatically better on the same program.
And so if, if you're [00:39:00] taking that program and you're one of the people on the average, yeah, that was cool, you get a pretty good response. You know, if you're those two freaks at the top, you get an amazing response. And if you're the one poor bastard on the bottom, I'd argue this is probably the worst program for you to do.
Right? And I think that's using research then determined on an individual basics. And I stole this line from Sean Casey, like research points the way, but me search tells me the answer. Like knowing about research and knowing about mechanisms and knowing what generally happens is awesome. Everyone should be more educated on that.
But that's kind of your starting point. And then you need to iterate from that. And the art and the skill is, okay, which direction do I iterate? Does this person need more volume? Do they need more intensity? Is a nutrition issue, is it their sleep is a disaster? Or you know, sometimes you work with athletes for a while and you realize.
Oh my God, this person has sleep apnea. They're getting time in bed, but their quality is crap. So, you know, that's the whole art of coaching and training is figuring out where are all these rate limiters that we can kind of [00:40:00] just keep removing and giving them for their physiology. What is the best air quotes program for them?
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And that's also where like a coaching experience comes in. Like, yes, you've seen, you've seen those people. You, you know, you see the patterns, how to Yeah. You, you know how to deal with them. But, but that's also where you see like some of the science-based, community, they, they not all, of course, but some tend to like just post like the result of some studies and like preaching that as but that's the new gospel.
Like, bro, you're not doing it right. You, this new study came out, we were all wrong the whole time. Yeah, yeah. So, so, and then it's like I, I kind of get that, that. That like the, the background I had, like, I, as I said, I started like looking at Roddy Coleman and Al Schwarzenegger and, and I Green and all of those people, and it's like, yeah, they work really hard and they're on a lot of drugs and doing [00:41:00] all that.
But even people who would take the same amount that they do and, and, and and do the same training program, they'd never look like that. So, no, it, it, so it's like you, you know that that's the thing that there are those people out there and as you, as you say, we could probably take that one poor bus bastard and give them.
All the rocks in the world, and it probably ever average. So that's where you, like you, you, you have those people. So pairing that and, and then I think that science will take you a lot of the way, but you really need to, to work really hard. And if, if it needs to go head to head I'm in the camp that hard work will beat the science.
Because at least if you just do the simple things like eat well, sleep [00:42:00] will, and work really hard, then then, you can have the best training program in the world and apply that, to a t. But if you are always at 10 RER, then, then it's not, it's not gonna happen for you. So, so I think that's the, the perfect combination we talked about, like the ability to read and understand science and then use it to hypothesize why some things might work extremely well for some people and why it won't work for somebody else. Even that you haven't done any any scientific research papers or studies on that thing.
If you have like a scientific body of knowledge, then you can sort of like pick things from, from each and try to use that to help [00:43:00] an exceptional athlete get even better. Or p or a person who, who it's not, nothing is working for them, then you can try to like, turn everything on its head and maybe do the exact opposite of what a scientific study would tell you to do.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, I like my little phrase I like is applied knowledge with violent consistency. Like you have to find a way to have the knowledge, you have to find a way to apply it. And even then, if you have like the best training plan, like you still have to execute it. And for a vast majority of people, you have to do that day in and day out and day in and day out.
And there's, you know, the same but different. Make it a little bit different. Don't break anyone, don't get any overuse injuries. But you know, there's a whole art and doing that. And I remember asking my coach Adam Glass once about, I said, well, hey, I, if I go on these little forums, they tell me to do all this other stuff and this and this small thing and this thing and, and I said it, [00:44:00] it appears after watching you for, you know, the better plus of a decade, plus that.
You can just do the same but different thing over and over and over. He is like, he's like, yep. 'cause my autistic as could come out here and pick up this damn dumbbell for like 80 reps in an hour. And that's a training session.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah. He's like, because
Dr Mike T Nelson : my goal is to get better at picking up the dumbbell.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's that's also my own experience. I'm really good at doing the same stuff over and over again. Which is quite good when you, when you're trying to do something with ultra running, then it becomes one of the things that you just need to be good at. And that's actually just one other thing that, I, I've told a lot of clients when they just.
Talk to me like how you're able to do it? Well I braided a [00:45:00] habit for a long time, and then I also say that I think my brain is just wired for some things like mm-hmm. I, I really, I, I just I can't not move, like try to tell them as easy it is for you to sit down as hard as it for me to to not be moving.
Like, I, I want to do that all the time. And then people tend to gravitate at what they're good at or what they want to do. For sure. If you, if you've taken enough time. So I've been active all my life and I always will be because that's just the, the thing that pushes me or interests me also. So you can't really it's difficult to teach.
So so I think a lot of the people who's, who comes to me for coaching or people I've coached is really just to they get [00:46:00] quite surprised sometimes of like the training program they get. They think like, all right, now it's iceberg salad and ice cubes for a year, and then 7, 7, 7 training sessions a week.
And then they get quite surprised when it's no three times a week. And we won't even touch what you're eating until you at least are able to show me that you can drink a glass of water the first thing in the morning and then show up for your training sessions. And, and then then you start a, you, you kind of start from there and try to people want to go from zero to a hundred.
All the time. And I think that's where you need to balance it out because you will get people on the other spectrum like me, who will tend to need to be pulled back a bit. Mm-hmm. Like it's difficult to take a rest day. It's difficult not to do [00:47:00] something. And that's just a personality type more than anything else, I think.
So that's also from coaching experience. You see that with people. And when you get some of those the, the guy I told you about who just pulled 500 kilogram or like no 500 pounds off the floor. The first time he also pushed like the sled with 600 pounds. Like so I just told the guy, you should, I know one of my friends is coaching American football and said, yeah, you should, you should try to you should try and go and do that.
And he did that and he just loves it. Now he's coaching that and oh, nice. Yeah, so like you just, and he had had a rough time just trying to get into exercise, just trying to, to to [00:48:00] learn it. And I just told him, yeah, you can lift this heavy stuff, push it around, throw some sandbags around, and then you can go and you'll see when you.
I grab or get a hold of a normal person and try to throw them around. You'll see something you're really good at, that you're much better at. And as soon as he saw that, like it's a huge success. So why would I try to force him to pursue power lifting or body building or like losing 50 pounds when that's not that's not worth anything for him long term.
Now he's found a sport that he likes and will keep doing hopefully many years going forward. So again, that's also like I think where I have evolved as a coach, like not like trying to have this thing, everybody should train like me and follow my philosophy [00:49:00] all the time. Like, you also need to like be aware of what you always tend to.
Push people to watch training. And you also pull that clientele to watch you, that wants to train like you. And you have to be able to be very good at like saying no and point people in other directions. Like, I won't go into any any advice on, on drugs or extreme weight loss categories.
I push people in other directions, like I think that's very important to be able to do as well, like knowing your limits. I'm very good at certain things but a lot of other things in the training industry, I wouldn't I, I won't even start to do that. I won't, I, I'll never train a CrossFitter.
I, I can teach him endurance and I can teach him strength, but I. And teach 'em how to clean. So like a clean or snatch or anything like that. So that's for [00:50:00] somebody else. So so I think that's that's one of the best things that you you can learn for through coaching hundreds of different people really.
Also you learn who, that you just need to say no to no to training.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, I mean, the CrossFit athletes I've worked with, which I really like, but in all those cases, they had an Olympic lifting coach. Like if they're coming to me and they're like, Hey, I want you to watch my video of Olympic lifting, I'm like, then neither person for that.
Or, you know, hardcore pharmacology for professional bodybuilding. It's like, yeah, probably look at some of your lipids and do a bunch of other stuff. But in terms of like this drug versus that drug, I don't even know anymore because I haven't educated myself and I'm personally, I just, it's outside my wheelhouse and I don't personally want the risk of advising on that.
You know, it's just like, go, you know, go find somebody else. Right. And so everybody kinda has their [00:51:00] own, I think, limits of what they feel comfortable, because at the end of the day, you want to be useful to that, that person. And that's why I think having a network of other people or knowing, okay, I, my knowledge extends to about this realm, but.
I know this person I can talk to who can translate it, or you may need to go see them or do a consult with them. You know, I think that you can still be a good integrator of things and just knowing where is your limit and if you have a good network, you know, where you can get the answer for that is always super, super useful.
Yeah,
Andreas Stobberup: I completely agree. That's where you, when you see like professional athletes, they have like the network of different experts that they use for, for different areas of their life really. And that's also where it can become like mind buckling when you hear professional athletes talk about something, some things they do and some things they don't do.
Like you can, you can like identify like this [00:52:00] huge gap in their team or whatever's happening where like professional athletes who. Doesn't take creatine, for example. Like you can, like, and then you hear them talk about it where they have absolutely zero knowledge about it because they've just been this machine who's just, they take a program and they execute and they execute, and they've just done that, year in and year out, like but they've never researched themselves or, or really like applied it.
They just do whatever people tell them to do. So that's, that's a, that's probably a whole nother thing, but I'm sure you've encountered that as well, where like you have people who are exceptional at what they do, and then they. They have these huge gaps in their their strategy for performance.
It could even just be like not even eating enough protein like this, these things that doesn't make any sense that people haven't told [00:53:00] them but it's because they've just always been used to just following a plan. And that's also why they are elite, the best in the world because they've just executed for years.
But but yeah, that's, I think that's the biggest thing in like today where you see, like with social media and amateurs and prose and people who are very science minded, that people who are just like working really hard just en enjoying what they do. I think the, the big problem is that it's become this, this muddy water where people don't really know what's the best advice and for who and, and and when, and people, yeah. Take something as, as gospel when it, when the science haven't been applied really. So that's that's a, a big thing. Especially for me, like I thought that I wouldn't do long endurance events, but as soon as I started [00:54:00] like getting just in a bit better endurance shape, then everything just becomes better.
It's, it becomes much more difficult to get out of breath between sets. And you just try to apply that. And now I just do a ton of endurance training and extremely little strength training because it's not my limiting factor at the moment. Yeah. So, so I, I'm not spending. Much time on that. But that's not to say that endurance athletes shouldn't do strength training, but, but you need to look at what the limiting factor really is.
I'm actually still to see a good study that shows strength training improves endurance performance when they've controlled for volume and intensity. I'd really like to see somebody do the study where they, they take a group that does two hours of [00:55:00] sprinting and he'll sprints a week compared to doing two sessions of strength training.
Because I think you'll be quite surprised that the elite endurance athletes, they are. Extremely weak when they have to squat, for example, like mm-hmm. Like their body weight is tough for them to squat and it's like 140 pounds maybe. So the limiting factor is the lower back in that case.
So I, I'm baffled that people don't put them in a machine instead and try to do something else. And control for a great structure program like doing hill sprints and, and speed sessions. They might be doing that as well, but at least control for volume and intensity. But as an amateur, when you start to move into endurance exercise, you should most definitely be strength training.
So that's like, some, if, if you took this out of context, then. [00:56:00] Somebody could hear, oh, I shouldn't do a strength training. No, that's not applicable to you. That's because I spent 15 years like strength training to build this up. It might come as a surprise, but muscle is really hard to lose when you've worked really hard to get it on.
It's incredible how that's my limiting factor. And and I probably won't be able to lose more than 15 pounds more. Then that's probably it for me. So I'll always be a heavy endurance athlete, but but I won't have well what have, but I haven't had any issues with with the injuries or anything at all.
And that's because you have a great strength base. So if you want to get strong and in good shape when you get older, you need to do both. There's no way around that. But that's a hundred percent sure.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, and I think of some of my basic thoughts on weight training for strength [00:57:00] for endurance. And then I have an endurance question after this is I think people don't have a clear reason for why they're doing the strength training.
So I bring it up into, okay, maybe we wanna do some, not really contra specific, but things you're not getting accomplished by doing. We'll take running, for example. I probably would do a lot of full range of motion squats. I would probably have 'em do a belt squat or something like that where their low back's not a limiter.
I'm not gonna load it up. I'm probably have 'em do reps. I just want 'em to keep that nice range of motion because they're executing a partial range of motion all the time. Consequently, I, I'll probably, if I can have 'em do like like some macal diet stuff like sports, back squat, partial range of motion, bottom position, top position, you know, watch their film.
Where do they, when they get fatigued, where do they start losing structure? Where do they start? Losing specific strength. I'm not saying that, well, if you just back squat, we'll solve all those issues. I think it's, [00:58:00] yeah, if you're really weak, yeah, you probably would. But as, as you get farther up the, the spectrum, I find it just becomes more specifiT
Or for cyclists, we do a lot of, you know, upper body thoracic work and pulling and seated cable rows and one arm and all that stuff. It's not to add more muscle, it's just to, yeah, you, you look like a bent over, like cashew all day because that's the position you're in. Can we just get you outta that position a little bit to try to keep you healthy so you don't have spine issues and neck issues and you can't fail your hands, you know, two hours into a ride and stuff like that.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. It's, it's really a, like, it should be based around like a mobility and activation. A lot of what you do, like really getting in Yeah. End ranges of motions and so on. But like the thing of like doing partial squats with like 150 pounds when you are somebody who's able to, to [00:59:00] run like a marathon in two hours and 10 minutes.
Yeah. That just, you, you should really know about false production and, and so on. And, and it, and it's, it's, it's quite clear that when you see somebody, they get coached by somebody who's not experienced in training strength training, like power based sports, at least, like if you have like anything where active or like.
At 10, 20 seconds or less. You really need power. You really need a different kind of strength training. But as soon as you start to do like the long endurance stuff, it becomes something completely different. You need to do like your five by three with the 150 pounds in partial squats is not beneficial compared to like you sitting in, in the leg press doing full range and trying to really put some weight on the [01:00:00] machine.
At least that's my opinion. And I, I, I think it's I would like a it's not that, the other thing is, is not a fine thing to do. I just think that you could apply it much better because you, you, for most endurance athletes, they don't enjoy. Doing strength work? Oh God, no. They ate it usually.
Yeah. Yeah. So like the biggest bang for your buck really. And then have them do like calf races and walking lunches as part of their warmup routine. And do some pushups and pull ups, do some body weight stuff. I think you're golden along for a long time. Really. If you are injured, it's a different story.
Yeah. But I actually also think that too much strength training puts a lot of endurance athletes in the category of where they get injured because of the strength training and not the other way around. Like they get wrecked of doing [01:01:00] like walking lunges with the barbell on the back, and then they have an interval session the next day that's not gonna put your hamstrings and glutes and.
Particularly beneficial situation. So I think that's that's also important to, to keep in mind when you look at it like that.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And on the flip side, if we have someone who's kind of a lifting meathead as we wrap up here what would you be, what would you have them do for aerobic training?
So, let's say their VO O2 max is like 30 to 40. It's really not that amazing. They want to get it a little bit better. You probably don't need to go much above 50, you know, milliliters per kg per minute in most cases. That'd be my upper limit. You can if you want, you know, but I think you're starting to have a little bit diminishing returns there.
My argument is I have them when I'm programming, my thought process is. I want as many higher intensity intervals at a [01:02:00] hundred percent of vo two max as I can fit in. So for most people, if you simple math, if your 2K time is eight minutes, right, then you're at about two minutes as your rate. So I would have 'em do that for maybe a two to six minute interval.
And then I would have that, it'd be on an interval day rest completely try to accumulate these longer intervals, and then I'll actually start backfilling them into the week. So like before your upper body day, you might do a just one, single one K on the rower. Maybe the other day your warmup is a 500 meter on the rower.
Like I'm trying to get a little bit more high intensity in, but I don't want it to blow up your your strength training sessions. And then if they have more time, I'll just start back filling a bunch of zone three stuff actually. And they don't need a lot of it. They're not doing endurance like. I've done the six minute progressive thing, just six minutes on the rower, like five, six days a week.
Yeah. You touched zone four a little bit, but most of it probably averages out to like zone three-ish [01:03:00] type work. What are your thoughts on that? Would you agree, disagree? Would you do something different? What do you think would be even more beneficial? Yeah,
Andreas Stobberup: I, I think it, it, it depends on what the, the goal is for the athlete of course, but Sure.
If you're trying to, to be as as big as possible, then you, I, I would really focus on getting your heart rate as high as possible for for like, let's say 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off, like a one-to-one work rest ratio. Probably I would, it's, it's difficult because in the beginning.
They, they will be gassed at the end of their session, so you won't really get a big output out of it, right out of them. So you have to like, fill it in. And also like have them do, do it sometimes in the beginning of the training, like, like build it up. But it actually comes quite quickly after a few weeks.
But [01:04:00] I tend to when, when you have people that focuses on strength and and, and, and, and power and bodybuilding all at the same time, this power bodybuilding, I really like to, program it at the end of the, the, the session trying to help them like do maybe 30 seconds all out on their, the assault bike have them I, I, I always like the combination of of pushing a prowler and throwing a heavy medicine ball or like a walking farmer's carry with a bag.
Like it'll shoot their heart rate up immediately. But it also becomes functional in, in, in the sense that they'll get some rotational work and stuff they might not be interested in doing. They want their bicep curls really. So I think like trying to cheat some [01:05:00] rotational stuff in with the high high intensity, work. You can do wall balls, you can do whatever. But I, I really think that just this one-to-one work rest ratio and then build it up. I think you can even start by five seconds all out in some centers or in some cases. It really depends. Like a, a view two max of 30 and five seconds all out on an assault bike, times 20 perhaps.
Then it's easier to microdose in more times through the week like you're doing and then, then build it up really. I'm, I'm not sure that like zone three and a five zone model really is worth, if at all, I probably focus a lot as you, as you do, really try to push them in [01:06:00] some five or top four really.
And then have them walk like just in their spare time, try to put some steps in them trying to, to build that capacity up that way. So I think you're it, it's, it's spot on. It really just depends on if, if you're able to get a, a, a true method to to actually do that type of cardio work. But I think if they applied for a couple of weeks, then I like to have some sort of like superset to have them measure it up against, like, I'll, I'll have them, I'll have them do like superset like squats and dead lifts because they'll see how.
Tough. That is they, but after three weeks of doing the cardio, then they all of a sudden see how much easier it is for them to go back and forth between that. And then you sort of create the buy-in [01:07:00] for them long term, and then you can push in much more volume doing a training session and they'll notice their sleep apnea is going away and all these good things after some time.
So I think as the heart rate as high as possible that you can get them to do preferably, had with some of the work, you are also not able to have them do like rotational work or, or even like grip strength work like farmer's carriers or something like that that'll shoot their heart rate up and, and train other things that will be beneficial for them for, for just bodybuilding stuff really.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And that's one thing we do is that we'll have 'em do like a, what they call a biometric method for maybe dumbbell res and one arm dumbbell rows, but their dumbbell rows are 12 to 15 rep range. Maybe their dumbbell presses are eight to 12, alternate back and forth on that, put a polar heart rate strap on 'em, [01:08:00] so you can't do your next set until your heart rate hits a hundred, and then record the total time it takes them to do three sets of those back to back.
They can rest as much as they want, so they're forced to rest until they hit a hundred, and then use that as kind of like a baseline. And at the end of the program, even maybe just a six or seven weeks, they're like, oh wow, I actually moved more load. And instead of, instead of this taking me, you know, about 11 minutes just making up numbers here, I was able to do that in eight minutes and 50 seconds.
And I literally did the exact same output or a little bit better. Right. So then they're like, oh, oh, oh, yeah. Oh, I see. Like to your point. Oh, this is easier. And I'm like, you're not getting any less hypertrophy response. You literally move the exact same amount of load. You could argue you might get a little bit better response because your density is, is now better.
And usually like for the pure, you know, more bodybuilding type people, that's usually enough for the light bulb to go on. And they're like, oh, okay. So this other aerobic stuff like is kind of [01:09:00] beneficial. And then looking at HRV, how much volume they can handle and those types of things too. It's you, you're basically trying to sell them on the thing.
'cause a lot of people I get are the people who've already got stuck on that plateau already. So it's again and again, you wanna know like, if that didn't move the needle, then okay, let's try something else. And you know, I've seen some people that can just handle hitting near max heart rate like.
Pretty often, and I don't know why. Yeah, like, and on paper someone else looks almost identical. And man, if they hit close to a true 90, 95% of their true max heart rate once or twice a week, we're pretty lucky. You know? So again, you're back to, you know, find the individual push whatever you can you think is the highest quality work first, and then backfill, whatever else you think you need to get the adaptation.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, there, I completely agree. It is the same thing when you try to get people to become better at [01:10:00] endurance. Like you want them to hit their highest heart rate and then or in some intervals, and then you want to see in the break. You want it to see like go down by dramatically. And. You just, with some people you see a heart rate graph, whether interval session, it's just like flat lining at five and you know, that's been really difficult.
But with time it becomes better. My own heart rate has like of course I do a lot of endurance stuffs, but now I'm at the point where I can, I hit my peak card rate at like 195 and then just standing still for one minute. Then it's below a hundred. It's close. Oh, that's close to 90 and, and a 80 again.
And I'm re can easily remember five years ago when she sort of got out of breath, walking up four lines of stairs with groceries and, and, and that's, that's just a [01:11:00] huge capacity thing. Like my HIV has gone from like. The fifties to an average of like 90 to a hundred. Nice. Like that's a big difference.
Yeah, that's a huge difference. And oh yeah. Resting hard, resting heart rate from the mid fifties to the low forties, high thirties even. And I can just feel the capacity is so much bigger. Now I'm not as strong, but I'm a hundred percent convinced that if I went the other way again, then I could just, I could tolerate a much higher training volume that I actually could before.
So it really is worth. Doing and even just, just putting the strength training on the, the back burner for three months. Like Yeah, yeah. Do maintenance.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah. Do maintenance. And then you'll be amazed how, how much [01:12:00] better you can become like three months of like a bit more structured cardio. It's really worth worth that investment.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And that's kinda what I do with my own training now and, and clients too, is once we get 'em up to a certain point, it's like, okay, you're not gonna get any weaker during this program. You're probably not gonna get significantly stronger, but if you just give me three to six months, depending on how low you are, whatever, just, just gimme three months, I'll be happy with.
You can see a, a huge difference, again, if you're doing an intelligently well-designed program that works for you where if you think about how much progress an intermediate lifter can make in three months of lifting. You can get better, but it's, I mean, to get significantly better, you're, you're talking years where I think the other benefit of the aerobic system is, at least to a certain level, we're not talking elite level status.
Here. You can put into pretty dedicated three to six months and you can see a pretty darn big difference in that period of time. [01:13:00] Which, yes, it's a lot of time, it's a lot of effort, but comparative to lifting it, it's in my opinion, much more trainable up to a, a moderate level.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, like in, in two, three weeks, you'll notice a substantial improvement in like your VO two max.
If you do that work even I can, like, if I do two weeks of focused VO two max work, I can easily feel that difference. So it's it's a big bang for your buck. And then again, you just need, what are you doing it for? Do you have like a sport outside you're training for? Then it becomes a bit easier to like, push people in that direction.
I saw you do the, a lot of like kite surfing. Yeah. And, and, and like again, it's a, a sport I don't know much about, but I imagine that grip strength is important and you actually need some cardio to be able to do that. In Denmark actually [01:14:00] Northern Denmark we have this place called Cold Hawaii.
It's actually a world famous surf. And kites place. And and when you see those people out there for hours, yeah, that requires strength and capacity and you're able to do that. So if you have like one thing you're training for outside the gym, I think that's that's very beneficial as well.
Even if you are just trying to become the biggest monster on the block, I think you should try to have something else that motivates you to, to do something different and what you're doing. It could be playing with your kids, it could be whatever, but like try to get people pushed in that direction.
Even Amit Head wants to be able to run after their kid when they learn how to bike. I'd say. So like I think that's the, that's the. The key thing. And again and [01:15:00] ultra endurance athlete would want to be able to pick their kid up. So there's some bicycles even now and then I think that's important to, to remember because when you hit 35, you're not really going to be an elite athlete anymore.
So you really need to have some motivation ready when that hits. So the elite athlete syndrome doesn't get you where you blow up and don't work out and everything just false to pieces.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, because it's like you said, the capacity allows you to move that to whatever the thing is you want to do.
Like in my case, like, hey, you know, I only get a chance to, you know, kiteboard and maybe fall and spring or probably the bigger times and, you know, the rest of the time's kinda hit or miss depending on schedule, whether et cetera. But I want the ability to go out and if I can, you know, ride for two hours and I don't want it to be at a super high RPE, you know, 'cause I wanna work on, you know, technical stuff [01:16:00] like jumping and things like that.
Well shocker, the more experience I can get in a lower stress state to give myself more opportunities to practice that I'm gonna get better faster than someone else. And plus it's, it's just more fun when it feels easy. It doesn't feel like it's as much work then either, you know? And that might be for lifting for some people.
It's like, oh wow, my lifting sessions were easier, that is kind of a little bit more fun and I'm getting a better result from it. Or my sport is better, or, or things of that too. So sometimes I think that's where it's helpful to have a coach or someone to, to look and say, okay, you know, this thing isn't the thing you're trying to do if you're trying to run a marathon.
Maybe you do need some basic strength training to get over to that next plateau. Therefore, each and every step makes it a little bit better. If we can add a little bit more elastic properties to your tissue, okay, you get more free energy return 'cause you're storing it in the tissue each time you take a step or optimizing your movement, economy and efficiency and all those things.
I think that's where it's helpful to [01:17:00] have a, you know, a coach to look at it and go, okay, yep, we still need to work on these things. You still need a lot of volume, you still need to do these things, but just adding a couple of these other things in will allow you to maximize that much, much better.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah.
Yeah. And that's where I think that, like even though that you don't have the personal experience of like, endurance, like ultra endurance. No, I'm not running a hundred miles. No, no, no, no. Few people are, but but at least like, you know, all the mechanisms that it requires, so you're able to advise to it.
But if somebody well I'm, I'm sure you, you, you could train somebody for it, but you are most likely do a lot of their surrounding training nutrition, all of that stuff. But somebody to actually do the workout running program or like take them through the, the race or a race day that might be like, you need somebody else to do [01:18:00] that.
So that's, that's where the scientific knowledge really helps, to be able to do that. But you never know, like the a hundred miles might be right around the corner for you.
Dr Mike T Nelson : No, I talked to my buddy Zach Bitner about that a fair amount and
Andreas Stobberup: Oh yeah,
Dr Mike T Nelson : I just, no thanks, man. I, I, that's just the whole, nothing.
No, never say never. No. May maybe, maybe not, but yeah,
Andreas Stobberup: yeah. Oh, I, yeah, he, he's also a different beast, but he he's on the the carbohydrate wagon now, so
Dr Mike T Nelson : yeah, I was giving him crap about that. Yeah, he is, he is off and on and it, it is to me, I think the, and I won't put words in his mouth, but to me as an outside observer, and he is a great dude.
I love him. He is awesome. It does go to, I think, show you that those things are important. I'm not saying nutrition is not important, but when you get to a high enough level and you're metabolically flexible [01:19:00] enough, you can, I think, get away with more things in the nutritional world than what people realize.
Yeah. Again, it's not to say low carb is this, or high carb or whatever. That's a whole different topic, but I think he's a very good example of trying different things and in general, he's relatively successful with most things, again, at his level, trying to be ultra competitive. Those little small differences do make a huge difference, but I think a lot of people, yeah, absolutely.
Look at it and they're like, no, keto forever Keto is the only thing that's gonna work. Or now ultra, ultra high carb, like, man, if you're not getting in 130 grams of carbs an hour, you're an idiot. You know? Like it, it's just this one extreme to the next. But again, back to your point, if you're doing high quality training, you're doing all the other stuff you need to, those things are important, but I think people who are at a lower level over index on those things, thinking that, oh man, if I just, if I just go to keto, like my four hour marathon's gonna be a [01:20:00] three hour marathon, I'm like.
No, it's not. No,
Andreas Stobberup: no, no, it's not. No, I I, I do think that in the coming years we'll see, like carb intake will just go up. We, we have some Scandinavian at athletes at yeah, at least that's, that's been tested. And they, they've been ingesting 300 grams of carbs an hour and oxidizing more than 200.
So I think we'll see the genetic variability, but also the ability to train it. I've just seen some studies about gut training that increases the uptake of it, which is a limiting factor in a ton of the studies that have been doing that. They haven't. Have athletes in that have been really got training for it.
Like it's, it's amazing when you see those pro athletes. And that's also something I've really applied, especially on my latest a hundred mile run. I did 165 grams of carbohydrates an hour and like, and like [01:21:00] 50 ounces. I think that's one and a half liter of fluid an hour. Like well, yeah a little bit more than 14 hours straight.
No gut issues, nothing at all. So if I oxidized it I'm not that sure, but it definitely closed like the the gap and and move it to an extremely fast time compared to what you would expect it to be. And I only think you'll see that go up. Like 160, 200 grams an hour. I think you'll see it go up when they actually get the elites in the in the into some studies and not just elites, but the world's best when they actually are allowed to study them.
They'll never get a muscle biopsy of a pro cyclist from the World ii, but, but I think you'll see that it'll be, it'll be funny in like three years to revisit [01:22:00] this conversation and, and see, see how it goes. But there are definitely coming tests out now of those athletes oxidizing well north of 180 grams an hour.
So that's, that's what you need when your when your lc one is 370 watts or a five minute mile. So that's I think that that's where everything will get pushed in that direction compared with are coupled with pooling while doing it, then you'll really see, well, records will be shadowed in the coming years.
That's I'm a hundred percent sure of that, and Zach might be one of the guys to do it. Who, who knows.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, that's right. In my, I I'm in the process of trying to. Resolve these two conflicting issues in my head, like I think it was Jeff Rothschild who published a study that went back and analyzed how much of exogenous carbohydrates go to muscle [01:23:00] glycogen.
And if I remember right, it's pretty low. And I've had Dr. Andrew Konik on the podcast and he's talked about how, you know, maybe exogenous carbohydrates aren't really doing what we think they are, but yet there's, you know, well reported case studies in the literature and from, you know, coaches who are very legit, who have direct measures, who have been doing metabolic card stuff.
Exactly what you said, showing these high oxidation rates and showing race performance steadily going up over time. So I'm still trying to resolve all that in my head. The only thing I've come up with so far is I get your thoughts on this and then we will, we'll tell where everyone, you can find you. I don't think they're going to muscle glycogen.
I do think they maybe are holding blood glucose more stable. And exactly what you said, I think they are being directly oxidized and if all of that is true, that might make all three of those areas like the story be consistent. [01:24:00]
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah. I agree. I don't think they necessarily spare muscle glycogen. I think you are able to do gut training to a much higher degree than people might think and paired with, if you have a high carbohydrate diet, I think your body will just go in that direction and you really need to keep in mind that like doing those extremely high outputs, like the average Joe are not able to oxidize that much Oh, no, no.
During their training. But for, but for. Professional athletes. Most certainly I think they're able to oxidize it and I think we'll probably see, I think we'll see some mechanisms in regards to what what's being used for cooling the body and the nervous system and the, the brains capacity. I don't think [01:25:00] there's any question on that.
Yeah. And the brain's capacity to like tolerate discomfort. That's one thing I absolutely noticed in the a hundred mile, like your ability to just push from much longer. Like so I think that's the next thing. We'll, we'll see that some of all this energy, some of all the a TP produced are going all around the body for, just for energy, but brain and cooling and a lot of different things that ultimately will really improve performance especially for ultra endurance events. I don't think there's much question about that muscle glycogen takes 18, 20 hours to get replenished if you eat a lot and like liver glycogen at six, 10 hours.
But I don't think at all that it's muscle glycogen sparing. At any [01:26:00] rate, I just think that once again, people have no idea what is possible if you really push the ceiling and you are like a crazy person like me who does the gut training like because it's a passion. And then how you see like what.
The differences between like an, like an elite or a pro, and then the world's absolute best because the difference between a pro and the best in the world is almost as big as an amateur and an elite in some cases. It, it's, it's just, it, it's just amazing when you see, you can just look at the Tour de France, see or Jonas Vinegar from Denmark.
Like the, it's not like the rest of the Peloton is in bad shape. You just have some guys who are exceptional. So I think that's when, when you, you're allowed to test them at some point. And even if if you need to [01:27:00] have some mad scientist on the podcast, I think there's a guy called David Roach.
He's also doing ultra running. He, he has this a podcast called Swap. And he's like this mad scientist himself, tests everything. Also super high carb. He's also been on Sec Bitter podcast talking about it. And I really like a lot of what he does. I try to do couple, a lot of what he's doing the scientific method, trying to apply that.
And it moved me a lot like finishing a hundred mile quite fast. And then then I have this other thing on my shoulder, which is like this I'm I just really like David Goggins, so I have him on the other shoulder. So I, so I kind of think like I have like a. Like a guy like David and the scientific guys on the shoulder [01:28:00] the first 10 hours.
And then I have the other guy for, for the last once. And I think when you, when you pair that, when you mix that up, then you really you, you get like the highest level of performance you are able to achieve on a given day.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, I agree with that. And my little thought about high carb diets and endurance athletes, 'cause they're going to much, much higher carb amounts, is that you've already saturated liver, you've already saturated muscle.
And I think, like you said, the higher carbohydrate diet is training the gut and also training your metabolism to constantly upregulate carbohydrate oxidation. Right? Because we know that if we give you carbohydrates, your RER will cycle up. Atkinson has done the study and non-athletes too, so that. I think the benefit of the high carb diet, even though you've saturated stores, is it's literally training your metabolism [01:29:00] when you're not exercising to be trained to oxidize more carbohydrates.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, yeah. I completely agree. And then you have like the, the freaks who is like, they're, they all burn two grams of fat per minute, like at their LT one s
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Andreas Stobberup: Together with their ton of carbohydrates. So like when you burn 12, 1300 calories an hour on your EC training, then you are you're in a completely different place.
So I most definitely think it's possible and you're able to learn from that as an amateur. You'll get a lot of benefits if you are willing to train it, but. Don't go out eating 150 grams of sugar gels on your first time running. You'll have a really bad time.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. So to me it's for metabolic flexibility.
It's the same polarized approach for training, right? Low to very low training, very, very high intervals. Right? The, [01:30:00] the more advanced you get, the more polarized your training there is. There's lots of good data on that. I also think that applies to metabolic flexibility and training your metabolism. So on your ultra high days, you are pushing tons of carbohydrates.
You're doing it 24 hours before you're doing, during the race, you're doing your high output and then you're also probably doing it fast. You're doing things that LT one for long durations. Again, do I think you get a lot of mitochondrial aerobic benefits? Maybe, maybe not, but I do think you are training your body to use fat efficiently also.
So when you get into the course of a race as it nears towards the end. You're transitioning more to carbohydrate use, which you can tolerate, but you are able to use lower percentages and still keep that output, you know, earlier than race, when you don't have as much fatigue.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, yeah. That's exactly it.
And then just know that your zones aren't static and that no,
Dr Mike T Nelson : they'll change
Andreas Stobberup: you, you'll, you'll [01:31:00] start your race, I don't know, 70% at your V two max, but you'll end it a lot higher than that. Like you'll get fatigued. Your V two max measured at the finish line is not the same as, oh, no, when, when you started the race.
So your burning rate will be, be different and it's almost impossible to like study. But I, I think it's very exciting to see the next couple of years also when what the pro teams and professionals are doing now, they'll prob probably be public in the next few years and. I, I'm sure we'll see those crazy high carb numbers.
And if not, just try to follow some of them on social media. That's the good thing. Some are real, some of those, the, those professionals are really good at sharing what they're doing.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Yeah. And that's also because the ones I know that are good about sharing their air quote secrets, they know that they're doing so much work [01:32:00] and doing such crazy stuff that most people could not directly copy what they're doing anyway, you know, so it's not like, yeah, they're giving you the secret, but it works for them.
And for 99.9% of the people, it's, it's just not possible.
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, I agree. Like you have, you have the things that science know is like the basis of everything, things that you've. Always known is working now. They're just pushing like the limit of of what's tolerable and the, the, the best in the worlds are all, they are inventing science because that's not really any place for them to look.
There's a, there's a couple of other guys who I've, I've also listened a lot to, but they've pushed like I think endurance science quite a bit. One is a Norwegian guy called Olaf Alexander Do, and he's trained like the [01:33:00] triathlon world champions. Yeah. I love
Dr Mike T Nelson : his
Andreas Stobberup: stuff.
Dr Mike T Nelson : He's a
Andreas Stobberup: crazy man. Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson : In
Andreas Stobberup: a good way.
Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. And they published some of the studies on those athletes. Mm-hmm. And, and, and some of that that in that their that direction and I think. We'll see more of that. He is also training the pro cycling team from Norway now. So we'll see some of his methods applied there also, and not to some of just a few guys who wins Olympic gold and world records in Ironman in the same year.
That's, a, a completely different story, but I think, we'll, we just see like these met scientists trying to push human performance and just be well aware that it's not for your average Joe either.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Awesome. Well, we can find people, find out more
Andreas Stobberup: about you. Well, they are always welcome just to write my name on Instagram.
[01:34:00] It's, it can be difficult to to spell my last name but it's my name Andreas, and then S-T-O-B-B-E-R-U-P. They're just welcome to just send me a message if they have any questions about anything really. I try to help as many as I can like advices always for free, or at least I'm quite good at pointing people in the right direction.
And yeah, that's the, the, the main place people can send me a message. That's, yeah, the best thing. I'm not using social media that much. That's, one of the last good things I think I have going for me, but we'll see how long that lasts
Dr Mike T Nelson : and the people are in Denmark and they come and knock on your door and train with you in person, and where are you at?
Andreas Stobberup: Yeah, absolutely. In, in, in Hoos in Denmark. It's the [01:35:00] second biggest city. So they're always welcome. We can always do a run or training session or whatever. They can just show up and we'll we'll run everything from one kilometer to a hundred miles or willing to, so we'll look into that.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Awesome. Well, thank you so much for all your time and sharing all your knowledge and everything here. I, I really appreciate it. This was great. Thank you so much.
Andreas Stobberup: Thank you for having me. It's it's a privilege. I've been following along for a long time, so it's a full circle moment for me at least.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Awesome. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
Andreas Stobberup: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Really appreciate it. Huge thanks to Andreas for being on the podcast. Make sure to check out all the great stuff that he's got going on. We'll put all his links and everything there. I highly recommend you check him out. Big thanks to him [01:36:00] for coming on the podcast and being so willing to share all the things he's done, both with athletes and himself.
So I'm sure you've gained a ton from this one. If you want more from myself, make sure to check out the Fitness Insider Newsletter completely free. Go to the link down below and you'll be able to hop onto it and completely free, send you daily content related to more muscle performance, body composition.
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A great little actress. Yep. And getting smaller all the time.
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