In this episode of the Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with my good buddy Vince Maltz, a high-performance mindset coach who works with NHL players, Division I athletes, and elite performers. We dig into what “mindset training” actually looks like in real life, beyond the clichés, and why it’s inseparable from physiology, recovery, and nervous system regulation. We also get into the modern performance environment: fake expertise, too many voices in the kitchen, and why big organizations adapt slowly. Vince breaks down centralized vs. decentralized leadership, how athletes can learn to think for themselves inside a system, and why being a “nerd” at your sport is becoming a competitive advantage. From there, we hit practical tools: how athletes move from conscious competence to unconscious competence faster, why distributed cognition matters in team sports, and what individuals can do today to improve performance through breathing, cold exposure, communication, and environment. Sponsors: Shiftwave: https://shiftwave.co/drmiketnelson - Save $300 with the link above. Note: This is an affiliate link. Daily Fitness Insider Newsletter: https://flex-diet.kit.com/bfa1510fa8
In this episode of the Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with my good buddy Vince Maltz, a high-performance mindset coach who works with NHL players, Division I athletes, and elite performers. We dig into what “mindset training” actually looks like in real life, beyond the clichés, and why it’s inseparable from physiology, recovery, and nervous system regulation.
We also get into the modern performance environment: fake expertise, too many voices in the kitchen, and why big organizations adapt slowly. Vince breaks down centralized vs. decentralized leadership, how athletes can learn to think for themselves inside a system, and why being a “nerd” at your sport is becoming a competitive advantage.
From there, we hit practical tools: how athletes move from conscious competence to unconscious competence faster, why distributed cognition matters in team sports, and what individuals can do today to improve performance through breathing, cold exposure, communication, and environment.
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mike T. Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things to increase muscle performance and improve body composition, and do all of it in a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today on the podcast, got a very special guest. My good buddy, Vince Maltz.
I first met Vince back in, man over all, over a decade ago, maybe even much longer than that. We were together in the Mindset Performance Institute run by my good friends Brian Grasso, Kerry Campbell. Uh, I was the director of research there. And yeah, Vince was helping with a lot of mindset stuff back then before it was.
Even trendy, and I got to see him again recently at my Buddy Coach Cavs event. So it was super fun to hang [00:01:00] out with him and chat with him. Uh, so we're talking today all about mindset. So Vince is a high performance mindset coach specializing in elite hockey and professional athletics. He currently works with NHL players, division one athletes, junior prospects, high level performers.
To develop cognitive clarity and emotional regulation and competitive resilience. Uh, what's great about Vince is he is been doing this for a long time at a very, very high level. And he is really good at not only the mindset space, but also what I loved about this is the integration of it into, uh, the total physiology.
And I think that is something. That in the future. If you are a new trainer looking at different parts of the field, the integration component is going to be huge. Again, you don't have to be a specialist in everything, but even when you are a [00:02:00] specialist in an area such as Vince is with mindset stuff, looking at and understanding how that fits in with athletes and how you can best approach it.
So in this podcast, we talk about just all sorts of stuff. Uh, from just mindset training and how it's evolved in pro sports. A lot of the analogies and stuff we use here, we kind of talk about the, the pros and cons of working in pro sports. Uh, we even talk a little bit about role of social media and in sports also, uh, centralized versus decentralized, uh, leadership.
Uh, how players. Can think for themselves, but also how do they work within an organization, uh, being a nerd in your sport, which is becoming more and more trendy. And I do think that is the future. And then everything from the model of how you can think about [00:03:00] learning skills to different mindset techniques, uh, game theory and just ton of stuff.
We even talk about, uh, individual performance stuff such breathing. Cold water exposure, communication environment, and just a ton of good stuff. So, uh, it was super awesome to chat with Vince here, as always, a huge wealth of knowledge. We'll put links to all of the great stuff that he does here. So would highly encourage you to check out all of the stuff that he's doing.
It's really, really good. Not just saying that because he is a good friend, but because it is super useful. So today, uh, I also wanted to say is brought to you by my own newsletter. If you wanna learn more stuff from me, uh, go to the link down below. You'll be able to hop into the Fitness Insider Newsletter directly, and I have tons of great stuff for you all the time.
Try to make them research base. Also try to make [00:04:00] them directly applicable to, uh, what you're working on, and hopefully try to make them entertain at the same time. So make sure to check that out down below. Um, and this is the podcast. We also talked a little bit about the shift wave device, which I've been really, really loving.
I've been able to use it now for several months, and overall, haven't been impressed with a lot of passive therapy devices in the past, but this one works really well. I've even used and done some omega wave testing with it pre and post, and I'm still super impressed with it. So much so that the unit I was using, I dropped off at my, uh, functional neurologist's office while I'm out of town and he is gonna be running a bunch more tests.
So super excited to see what's going on with that. Uh, if you are interested with that, you obviously you can hit me up more than happy to help you with any questions on it. And I do have a link down below. Uh, note it is an affiliate link, so I do make a few bucks off of it, [00:05:00] but. Uh, it is something that I've used a ton and find to be super, super useful.
So, uh, that's what we got for affiliate links and everything else. So without further ado, enjoy this podcast with my good buddy, Vince Maltz.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Welcome to the podcast, Mr. Vince Maltz. How are you sir?
Vince Malts: I'm good. I'm good. How are you?
Dr Mike T Nelson : Good and nice to see you again. We first met through Brian Grasso and Carrie through the Mindset Performance Institute. God, was it back in the day? Was that over? Was that over 10 years ago now? Oh, eight years ago.
Vince Malts: Yeah, easily. Well, we're now the 15 year mark, somewhere in there like it's crazy.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Woo. I know. That's wild.
Vince Malts: I
Dr Mike T Nelson : know. It's crazy. And then you ran into my, my good buddy cv and he's like, Hey, do you know this guy? I am like, yeah, I know that guy.
Vince Malts: Oh yeah. Small
Dr Mike T Nelson : world.
Vince Malts: Yes it is. Yes it is.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Awesome. And so you're doing some mindset [00:06:00] stuff again, but from a, a little bit different perspective. So just give us a brief, like 30,000 foot view of kind of what you're doing right now for context.
Vince Malts: Yeah. Yeah, so I'm, I'm doing a little bit of both of where I'm working with players individually, professional players, college athletes junior age, which in, in hockey world, right. It's a lot of people I'm dealing with is the hockey world. And basically it's like that 18 to 20-year-old mark. So it's pretty cool.
A lot of who I'm dealing with is that, you know, the 18 to 26, 27 year old mark right in there and basically doing a lot of mindset work. So working whether individually with clients and, and players doing that. Or working with teams collectively as well and being able to help, you know, institute how, what does that look like in a team environment and collective environment and things of that nature.
So I get a nice little duality of the two different lenses, which is a lot of fun.
Dr Mike T Nelson : That's awesome. Do you feel mindset work is more, I dunno, I guess lack of the word is accepted now, I feel [00:07:00] like. Even 10, 20 years ago, like the whole, even performance psychology was still kind of viewed as this sort of fringe area.
And if you were one of the players working with a psychologist, you're like, whoa, what's wrong with that dude? Where I feel like now it's just almost accepted as one of the ways to increase performance by, I wouldn't say everyone, but I'd say by a lot more people than there ever has been.
Vince Malts: Yeah, definitely more for sure.
If you look at the overall scope of what's out there publicly, there's no doubt that it's definitely accepted more in the, Hey, now it's okay to talk about it.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, yeah.
Vince Malts: But internally, if you really look at, you know, a lot of organizations and the constraints of what's going on, there's still so many different people I talk to in the industry that are out there and leadership still hasn't caught up yet with it.
Yeah. So publicly seems like they're the
Dr Mike T Nelson : last unfortunately.
Vince Malts: Yeah. Yeah. It's, and it's funny, right? 'cause you would think, you think it would be. Right. In sports, everybody, it's usually, you know, it's usually top [00:08:00] down in terms of systemic thinking and things that you can see that people want to like, okay, if we can talk about things we can control.
Right? Yeah. The different parts of the game and we're gonna talk about the game. That's cool. But this part, it's been interesting to watch that How long you know the process is taken to get accepted? 'cause it's still, oh, oh, this kid's messed up. Yeah. Send 'em to Vinny. And it's like, what does that have to do with being messed up?
What do you like? Yeah,
Dr Mike T Nelson : yeah.
Vince Malts: No, that's not what it is. Like why are you still thinking It's for people messed up.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, like, I always think of, there's something, I'd say positions within sports where I think it's more pronounced and the, the top position that always comes to my mind is a kicker in the NH or NFL, who, I won't name names, but there's been very public things.
Some of 'em may have been past Vikings, but who skill wise were just drilling everything or very, very high percentage. And then all of a sudden they'll have like an easy miss. They could have won the game [00:09:00] and they can't hit anything after that.
Vince Malts: Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson : You know, and you're telling me, I'm like, there's no way that's in that position.
A performance from a physical standpoint. Maybe they had an injury they don't wanna report or something like that. It's entirely possible.
Vince Malts: Yes.
Dr Mike T Nelson : But to me that's a glaring example of just mindset at kind of one of the highest levels that's on display in a very public high pressure situation.
Vince Malts: Yeah, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent. I think that's the part that, you know, people misperceive right about the importance of mindset is they think you can, especially at the professional level, like one of the things I point out. To any one of our players all the time is the idea that people say, don't care what people think.
Don't care what people think.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Good luck with all that.
Vince Malts: Yeah. The very nature of how we survived as a species is literally a group thing and not getting tossed out into the wilderness. Like it's all about what others think. So you know, that's the biggest constraint that happens at the pro level, that that is hard for people to [00:10:00] consider is when that happens publicly.
Right. Why social media, people with commenting and don't doom scroll and all these things. Because mentally yeah, it sends you into a tizzy of where, well, what do other people think? And when, so you make these kind of plays, we don't know what that emotional imprint does to a human being. Right? Like that, that's one of my you know, my, my biggest arguments always with data analytics, right, is okay, data takes in awesome information performance wise on the individual, but collective energy collectively on, on what's happening.
If you ask, you know, any one of these data analytics well, and especially in a team environment, well, can you gimme the sequence of events data? Can you gimme about what actually happened in the sequence? Yeah. Well, no, it doesn't do that. That, that will take forever. I'm like, oh, so you can't actually give me what is happening in terms of the, you know, the experience of the game in that context, which in a team sport is everything.
The sequence of events, right? The timing, the rhythm, things of that nature. So how do you measure that when a player makes a miss like [00:11:00] that and then it's now. Interpret it in their own mind. The imprint, right. Emotional imprint. Mm-hmm. That was so embarrassing. And, oh, get over it. Get over it. And it's like, well, what do you mean get over it?
Like,
Dr Mike T Nelson : yeah,
Vince Malts: it's easy for the other person who didn't, didn't experience that to say get over it. But the reality is for that person, depending on where they are and the age, age and stage of their career and all the other, you know, variables that well, was something sent in the locker room? Or how is this now perceived by the organization?
And what kind of conversations are they having behind closed doors? These are all things that the athletes, when they're there can feel it. You can feel, oh, for sure on, but we don't talk about that stuff like publicly. It seems very simple. Oh, he's a pro athlete. It should be able to figure out right away.
And it's like, well, there's more than meets the eye in all the variables in a pro environment.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And then for a lot of players like that, you may be on a contract year, you may not even be guaranteed to be there next year. This is, you know, in essence, yeah, most of the time you're paid well, but this is your livelihood.
This may be your. Second [00:12:00] year maybe ever, or playing like, I doubt you made enough money the first two years where you're, you know, secured for life, like odds are.
Vince Malts: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And a lot of these players they want to play, that's all they grew up doing. They don't know a lot of anything else, any different. And so you add all those variables and stress, you know, into the mix.
And it's I, I equate it to, on a smaller level, almost like a, from a neurology standpoint, sort of like a traumatic experience, right? Yes. You've got something that's very high stress, very high consequential. We can argue that, you know, may not be related to their physical safety, but like you were saying, the imprint or the impression on their nervous system is extremely high in that case.
And I think that's kind of, I dunno if it's entirely disregarded, but I don't think it's sort of respected as much as it probably should be, as my guess.
Vince Malts: Yeah, you nailed it. You nailed it. I, I think that's one thing that, you know, we fail to [00:13:00] realize and give it the, you know, the consequences of the intensity.
I'm gonna commit my life to something that from a young age, I was dreaming. I was dreaming, right? Like, that's kind of what so many pro athletes the dream to be in the league. So, you know, the imprint of that, of how many years I wanna be there, I wanna be there, I wanna be there and I'm chasing something.
And then you get there, right? And then what happens a lot of times when a lot of the players get there, it's like, Oz is, current's been revealed. It's like, wow, I always thought it was great to play my sport, but now it's a job.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, yeah.
Vince Malts: Like when you're younger, you're still in the mode of dreaming and sure, it'd be amazing to play the sport and all these kind of fantasy land.
And then you get there and you're like, whoa. Like this is not at all, this wasn't a part of the dream. And because how do you know, right? How do you know if you don't know? Like, yeah, you didn't know that. So when you get there now. You put on the nervous system, you put all these other, alright, I've gotta behave a certain way and show up day in and day out.
Right? People [00:14:00] forget that of like how as a pro athlete like that, it's a boring life because every single day I've gotta do the same thing over and over again. And it's a role now, it's a job. And so to go from dream and playing to now it's a job. There's a hundred percent we don't deal with enough of. It there, what's the difference, right, of like with our players when we talk about the anxiety of, I'm excited about a game, right?
And it's like, oh my God, I'm afraid or I'm excited. Right. There's physiologically, you know, there's not a difference between just the interpretation. It's
Dr Mike T Nelson : very similar.
Vince Malts: Yeah. It's, it's just the how I answer, oh, I'm pumped, or Oh my God, I'm gonna fail. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's the same physiological, but the interpretation is what changes.
And you're right, the, the traumatic experience of when I go in, the interpretation changed, but it didn't change because of anything that I chose to change. It changed because the environmental constraints were like, when you grew up, nobody told you, or nobody made you aware of it to such an extent that it's like, Hey, to [00:15:00] get there, it, it's gonna be like this.
Like no amount of somebody telling you until you get there. And then when you get there, it's just like, oh my God. Your whole nervous system shifts from. Why can't I just play? Why can't I just do what I, the psychological safety? Why can't I just feel good and do my thing? No, no, no, no. You have constraints.
Now we're gonna tell you exactly how I need to think and play. And that messes with so many high level performers.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And, and we, and for better or worse, we may even tell you how to move. Right. And again, another public example, obviously I'm a big Vikings fan. I think of JJ McCarthy from a whole bunch of different reasons.
Vince Malts: Mm-hmm.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Like I've been watching film on him and when he was told to do air quotes, better mechanics, which from a mechanic standpoint I do agree, look better. He is got some funny stuff that happens to his back leg when he throws. It's just weird. But when he was allowed to sort of play and have more fun and they simplified it a little bit.[00:16:00]
He did much, much better. Mm-hmm. When I think they tried to constrain him to what I would agree with from a biomechanic standpoint, and it's probably better movement, eh, he was just off a little bit. Again, it's an NFL game. It's different things, different line, you know, O lines different, blah, blah, blah.
There's a hundred different variables in there for sure. So you, you can never say for sure this is it. Right? And then you add on top of that with I think now it's like social media. You know, if you go back, I always think of like comparing JJ McCarthy to, like Aaron Rogers, right?
Vince Malts: Mm-hmm.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Aaron Rogers.
I don't think he really gives a crap about anything. Like he wants to win, he's motivated,
Vince Malts: that's it.
Dr Mike T Nelson : But he's gone through so much shit in his entire career for how many frigging years. He just has that experience and I think he feels, and it's, he's been very public about it too, so it's not like I'm sharing anything that hasn't been in the public.
Vince Malts: Right. Exactly.
Dr Mike T Nelson : He's gone, I think through that sort of transition, and he is got many, many, many years of practice or someone like McCarthy who is, this is very, his, [00:17:00] his first year he is with the organization but was injured. He's only played a handful of games. He's 22. You know, it's like, how do you, it's, it's odd to see huge expectations placed on someone now with the burden of anyone who's, anyone can say anything about you on social media.
And I agree with what you're saying, like, yes, you shouldn't, you know, pay attention to that. You, for God's sakes, don't doom scroll about what other yahoo's on YouTube or saying about you, but you're still gonna hear it. Like you can't live in such a vacuum that you know that it's not there. So do you think.
Social media plays a bigger role now that even younger athletes kind of have to deal with. Where even back 10 years ago, I don't think it was anywhere close to, or even five years ago, close to where it is now for professional athletes who are basically in the, the public eye.
Vince Malts: Yeah. Yeah. No big time. It's where social media has definitely played in more than ever is the expertise, [00:18:00] fake expertise.
That's,
Dr Mike T Nelson : oh, everyone's an expert.
Vince Malts: Everyone's an
Dr Mike T Nelson : expert, bro. I'm an NHL expert. I'm the Oh
Vince Malts: dude.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Dude, youve never even coached a single person in your entire freaking life.
Vince Malts: Exactly. Oh, I listened to Dr. Mike T's 32nd video. I know what I'm talking about now. And so that's what you see has really happened across the board.
You know, take your pick, right. Yeah. Whether it's parents or skills coaches, or players or coaches, leaders. Everybody has now these opinions that they think, I'm like, oh, they're real. Like, oh, see, this expert told me this. So now that means I understand what the expert told me. And that's one of the things I'm always really careful of is like our players know, whenever I'm sharing on social media, it's like the the page is designed for the players ultimately, like I'm speaking to them.
And then other people, as I share information, they come and they'll hear it. And I'm fully aware of. You're gonna hear the context of what I'm talking about, but you're not gonna understand where it came from. Right? Yeah. In, in the [00:19:00] professional world, as an example, I deal with this all the time of where I'll create some type of tool for a player and next thing you know, well, I feel like it's too long, and why did you create this and why did you do that?
And they're questioning all these different things. I'm like, but what lens are you coming from? Yeah. How do you know what I created, what I'm gonna present to the individual? And now you're critiquing it because it doesn't make sense in your lens. But you're gonna sit here and say, on my professional lens, and you're gonna question it.
And I think this is the vacuum that's gotten created in the Infinity Loop is that people hear something, right? And it's, and from social media and, oh wow, Dr. Mike has told, said this, so now I'm gonna listen to it. Somebody else comes in that has that real world experience. And it's like, well, no, that doesn't make sense.
Like, what do you mean by that? Like, wait, well I heard this and well, no, I believe this now. And it's like, well, you believe what, what do you believe? And so that's what you see a lot of now in sport is that's what's happened. And it's, it's a, it's a combination of things of not just social media, of what it's [00:20:00] done, but also the teams that are behind these athletes.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh yeah.
Vince Malts: So, so now not only has it, when we were growing up, you had a couple people that were mentors, whatever it was. Now you have 10 to 15 deep of you, you've got three skills coaches. You've got a strength coach, you've got a mental coach, you've got a nutritionist, you've got this other coach from the, you know, you years past, like you've got the agent now I've got four agents somehow.
Yeah. Like you've got all these voices on top of,
Dr Mike T Nelson : of, we may have the, the Russell Wilson entourage that's associated.
Vince Malts: Bingo. Bingo. That's crazy. Right? So like you think about now you're a part of an organization and you have to listen to them. Ultimately you're participating with them.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yep.
Vince Malts: But you've got social media, you've got your own team, you've got all this stuff, and it's just.
It's gotten wild of the expertise, the fake expertise that's out there, because it's just like, it's not real. And unfortunately for a lot of us right, that are in the field and practitioners boots on the ground, it makes it more challenging because you're, you're not only trying to share your expertise, but now how [00:21:00] you present the material, you have to include that part of the process and go, I understand the influence is leading the perspectives, you know, type of stuff.
I understand you're getting a lot of different perspectives, but what do you ultimately think and see based off the evidence and the data that you're experiencing is really where so much of the challenge comes in of teaching that skill today more than ever because of how challenging it is that everyone's around you, but everyone now is an expert.
It's wild to watch.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And then I've seen this personally on an individual level with, you know, athletes that make millions of dollars a year just being in the organization for a period of time. Mm-hmm. Who's ultimately in control, and this is in a, we'll say, I won't say what it is, but it's an individual sport, right?
This is not even a team sport.
Vince Malts: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And in many of those cases, you've got all people who are very wonderful people, well do very good at their job, but more often than not, there's not, it could be the athlete, could be someone else who's sort of, I think of it as a systems engineer. Like who's looking at all the little [00:22:00] pieces, who's coordinating with everybody else to, and then who's the final decision maker is that you know, someone that you talk with the athlete and you guys decide what to do.
And it's crazy how, even on an individual level, a lot of that is just kind of like, eh, you know, we'll do this and that, and ah, you know, it's, it's not really going in one cohesive direction. And then now you multiply that in a team environment by how many different players in different positions and.
It's like, holy crap, it gets messy fast. Mm-hmm. There's 800 cooks running around in the kitchen.
Vince Malts: Mm-hmm. Big time. Big time. Yeah. That, that's the challenge with the process, right? Is that, you know, when we look at kind of the information flow, I, I think a lot of what's changed now conceptually, I like the idea of a centralized versus decentralized mindset.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Mm-hmm.
Vince Malts: I, I think what's changed now is we grew up in a system of a centralized mindset. You know, hierarchy, top down, here we go. You're gonna get the information, you listen to coach, you listen to whoever they tell you, and you [00:23:00] go, whereas now the skillset of a decentralized, where, you know what, how do you lead your process?
Dr Mike T Nelson : Mm-hmm.
Vince Malts: You know, what's your take on it? Right? Like we always talk about your thought process will never be faster than your belief system. What we mean by that is, well, if somebody's telling you what to think, right? The leader, whoever's telling you and telling you what to think, and then you have to think there's a two step process happening as opposed to no.
What do you think? Go. Right. So, you know, particular activating system. Yeah. It's, it's all about the belief system has to get hit neurologically from the place of, wow. Oh my God. Oh yeah. I, I see the result. Now I have proof of what I'm thinking works. But if all you're always trying to solve is what somebody else is trying to think and tell you, that's the biggest challenge that we have.
I, I think in today's world with this process is that it's not anymore listen to the expert. They're gonna tell you what to do when you go. So many of these athletes now are incredible experts. It almost feels like they're the old spartan warrior of, they have no idea how powerful they actually are anymore, [00:24:00] which is really weird.
It's like you, you do realize you're more of an expert than the coach you're dealing with. Like, you actually understand this process significantly better, but they have no I, they think like, I gotta list that person. It's like, but that person you're listening to I know for a fact does not know it the way you know it.
And that's been the most incredible aspect of. Watching, you know, over the last 10 to 15 years, the development process that's happened is that now these kids coming up are so good at understanding the game and understanding all the different parts of it, the, the, the systemic nature of it, all these different things, how to play all, do all these different things within it.
But yet they still don't realize, wait, the person I'm listened to is still stuck in a framework where they want it to be. Well, I'm telling you no matter what, I don't care how you're naturally designed. I don't care how you naturally see things. I want you to do the way I interpret what I believe about you.
And that's just wild to me. In, in terms of the context, right? Of how we haven't adapted and [00:25:00] changed yet with the times of where as a leader, your job is to decentralize and say, you know what? Hey, this kid thinks wow the way they think, how can I go and, and make that more fruitful for us? How can I take how they naturally see things, how they do things, as opposed to, well, I see you in this image and you have to do it the way I see you when your software, you haven't updated it in years.
That's the crazy part about so many coaches that you'll see, and there's plenty that have updated, but there's a lot that are like, still, there's a lot that happened. Right? A lot happened. Exactly. Like it, it's again, you know, talking about earlier right? It's relative of, it feels like it's changed, but it hasn't because especially if you think of in the pro realm, a lot have been stuck in that silo for years, so who's really challenging them?
Yeah. Whereas outside of that silo, there's lots of people trying to innovate and get better. So that's what the players are experiencing. They're experiencing these, these minds and these leaders that are giving them new, updated software. Right. [00:26:00] Information and, but the old coaches, it's, you've been stuck in a organization 10, 20, 30 years.
So you haven't had to really challenge yourself to change much.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. It feels like in general, a principle is a, the bigger the organization and the more there is at stake, it seems like the slower they adapt. A
Vince Malts: hundred percent.
Dr Mike T Nelson : I think the military kind of figured this out, which is why they splintered off, you know, special ops and even different tiers within the special ops to create smaller groups that can innovate and move faster.
Because a large group, it just seems like it's, I don't wanna say impossible, but it feels like it's very difficult because even with some larger teams, if you have something that you could prove demonstratively is beneficial, even if you can, sometimes that's viewed as either, wow, this is great. We're going to, you know, have you help us and have you sign an nda a so you cannot talk to anyone else and tell anyone else about it.
Or they go the opposite and be like. No, get the hell outta [00:27:00] here. That's the dumbest thing we've ever seen because it's Right. Threatening to a lot of other jobs and positions there because mm-hmm. If you were right then they by definition are not right and would have to change and yeah. That's pretty scary.
Ah, just go away.
Vince Malts: Yep. You nailed that one,
Dr Mike T Nelson : which you would think and this is, again, this is, you know, overgeneralization, but
Vince Malts: Sure, of course. Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson : You, it just seems like the bigger the organization is, the harder it is for them to accept new information. And there's a, you know, obviously, you know, examples where that's not true, but even in the examples I've seen where it's not true, it's delegated into smaller and chunked into smaller areas and it's then it seems to work Okay.
Vince Malts: Yep. Yep. Yeah, I think the, the issue, right, that needs to be solved, that obviously just figuring it out and you know, it's the idea of how do we have dialogue, [00:28:00] right? Like bombs work. Like, you know, he has that interesting right? Of like, bring in 20 to 40 people in the room and just let them go and let them talk, right?
And just see what happens and allow it to do its thing from a communication standpoint. But the whole point of it is, is bring people into a room and talk. And I think that's the biggest challenge with big organizations is that what you'd find if you let people communicate, process, intent, understanding of where they're coming from, you would expose a lot of people in the room where, oh, you're not actually coming from a place of process or understanding.
You don't really. Feel the thing, right? You don't really know the thing inside out. So the hierarchy makes it simple, right? To kind of separate things and put everyone kind of in their own little place. You control how the information gets spread out as opposed to, well, why don't we actually sit in a room and talk about what are we trying to achieve together?
Let's be open, let's, let's really hear it out in the open. And that's the most challenging aspect of it, is how do you organize that with a big [00:29:00] organization where everyone's gonna come into a room, come up with their ideas, and it's not gonna end with a fight starting within 10, 15 minutes or Right. Or, or somebody taking over sucking all the oxygen out and everyone's gonna listen to that person for the next hour.
Yeah. And it's just like, well, I didn't get a chance to say anything. So, you know, those are the challenges, right. Of where, how do you, like you said, with the military, I figured it out. Of where it's like, all right, well let's just break these up into groups. And that's something that I found in my own work too, is that
Dr Mike T Nelson : mm,
Vince Malts: when you talk in a open forum, like in the locker room as an example, you might have 20 to 25 players, staff, all that.
And it's interesting of even in that, when you have 20 to 25 versus if you pull together four to six players, mm. And you have a group discussion how much different the dynamic shifts with experienced players, I've had players that have played hundreds of games, you know, at the NHL level, highest level, professional level.
And in a group environment, they're so open, they're saying all kinds of things. And then in the locker [00:30:00] environment where we all get together, they suddenly become shy. So it's a real thing of how do you take that group context and then pull it into, all right, well now let's talk about this more in an open forum, but let's take what each group had to share and now start to build the dialogue around that.
So then this way we at least got the honesty and the truth. I think that's the, you know, you're trying to solve for it in an organization, but then there's all the other dynamics, right. Of ownership and management, and there's so many different parts to the, to the wheel and the variables that Yeah, it's, it's, it's complex.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And one other thing I'll layer in and then we'll get to like, what do you actually do with all this stuff? I'm, mm-hmm. The reason why I'm probably spending so much time on this is I think to people who are outside, I think professional athletics is super interesting because it is public, but I don't know if the average person understands the complexity and also the fact that they're not, they have a fraction of the [00:31:00] information.
Like there's a lot of stuff that is not public and will probably, maybe never be disclosed for good reason.
Vince Malts: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : So they're, you know, armchair quarterbacking on very limited information.
Vince Malts: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : My question is, do you think. Now it seems like it's, it's kind of okay and even almost cool to be a nerd at your sport.
Like, I think this is happening. The little bit I've seen in the NHL, you could confirm this or not.
Vince Malts: Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson : NFL I think it even started with Brazilian jiujitsu. Like you look at John Donaher and you know, a lot of the people that just spend a ton of time studying film, and there you have the benefit of it's, you know, me versus you, someone's gonna win.
Yes. So you, you can immediately test if this is working better or not. Right? Yeah. It's a little harder in a team environment, but I think a player, like, you know, for the Vikings, Andrew Van Kinkle and you know, other sort of defensive players who weren't, yes, you had to know plays. Yes. You had to recognize patterns.
Yes, you had to do a lot of [00:32:00] things. But I think taking that to the next level via almost like a savant of the game and having so many reps of recognizing these patterns that it probably becomes. Unconscious. Yes. Right. Or I think of some NHL players who physically may not be the biggest, fastest, strongest, but son of a bitch, they always seem to be in the right spot at the right time.
Exactly right. And I think that's that prediction, that's seeing those patterns, that's studying film, that's being very observant and, and cognition related. Yes. So my question is, one, do you think that's true? And then two, how does that further play into kind of the mindset and the complexity of everything that we've talked about?
Vince Malts: Yeah, no, you nailed it. And 100%, you know, yes, it's true. You know what's changed? Is the educational process of when we were coming up, it was play outside. Figure it out on your own.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Vince Malts: Right. And then over the last couple decades, there's so much [00:33:00] rich information, rich context, right. Data analytics, skills, coaches that are invested.
Right. Different videos you can watch, right. Of development. So there's books, all these different variables have come in where, when we were coming up it was just figure out on your own and play and you get the wisdom from the veterans. Mm-hmm. You know, they pass, they bestow you with the wisdom and the secrets and all that stuff.
And so Yeah. Now the players that are coming up, you have to be a nerd at it. Like if you really wanna be successful at it. Yeah. And, and it's just simple. It's not, it is just, I love it that much. I wanna know all the little nooks and crannies
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Vince Malts: That are involved in it. Right. And so cognitively speaking, that's what's changed now is so a big part, right?
Misconception, like we were talking about earlier, is that, you know, people will see my line of work as, oh, there's something messed up with that guy. Oh, go see Vinny. And it's like, do you even realize there's a whole cognitive science and approach behind this of like, it's not just they're messed up. Like you can actually think through and develop the process of what you're talking about, right.
Of where [00:34:00] there's, you know, like a lot of people make the argument that you can't develop game IQ as an example.
Dr Mike T Nelson : I disagree with that.
Vince Malts: Completely. Completely,
Dr Mike T Nelson : yeah.
Vince Malts: Completely.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Because there's way too, there's also way too many examples of people who, I don't wanna say play dumb, but. By definition, they're not getting bigger and stronger than when they entered the league.
They're probably decreasing a little bit, but in terms of, you know, goal, score point, whatever metric you want to use way better over time.
Vince Malts: Yes, a hundred percent. And that's the part that pip, you know, people misperceive about where, you know, where the line gets delineated, right? Is like, to your point of like, when you're emotionally so invested in something, the misperception that happens publicly is, oh, you can't teach game IQ and all that stuff.
And it's like, no, no. What you are perceiving as the person that you're talking about, that you're trying to teach it. Doesn't have the desire to learn. Right. They don't. They don't want it that badly. And what you're misperceiving is, well, I'm trying to tell you, and I'm telling them how to [00:35:00] think and they're not listening to me, da, da, da.
And it's like, I know it's not you. Well, maybe it is you. Maybe it's the way you're presenting it, you're not interesting. Right. But the reality is it has nothing to do with the fact that you are misperceiving of maybe this person, this human being just doesn't wanna learn it like that. Yeah. Because from what I've observed, and you observed too of when you wanna learn it and you want to figure it out, it's amazing how much the people that wanna get nerdy, and that might not have a natural disposition, but because they're a student, they can suddenly go, wow, they really changed a lot.
And it's like, right, because they had the desire, they had the passion inside that they wanted to learn that. And so now there's a lot of great information that. If you study and you're a student, boom. Now the framework comes in, you want it, you're emotional about it, right? Boom, I believe it. Now it's working.
I'm seeing results and it builds up. And that's the part that people miss about the idea of game IQ is that number one, you know, it's a lot of people that are heavily invested at the pro level when they go in there. So at that level you can teach [00:36:00] it. But what happens is the constraints on the environment of you've got a coach or you've got somebody in the organization, the way they present the information, they're very authoritative or they, they're, they're very angry with this person.
They're upset with them. So the way they're presenting the information doesn't make it seem like something I really wanna learn from you. Right. Because it's like, I really don't like your approach. I really think you hate my guts. Yeah. I wanna play hard
Dr Mike T Nelson : for you.
Vince Malts: Right. Like it's all that stuff that like, it's like, oh, oh, that's all.
Oh, Vinny feelings don't matter. I'm like, sure, sure. Yeah. You obviously won't, momentum's not a
Dr Mike T Nelson : thing and
Vince Malts: whatever. Yeah. It's just mental. It's just mental. It has nothing to do with the neuroscience and psychological safety and nervous system, and I feel safe around you. It has nothing to do with any of that.
Yeah. So it's, it's crazy, right? And so, yeah, like that's the part that's challenging, right? Is that cognitively speaking, people don't realize that if you understand all the variables that go into being really thoughtful, right? Identifying clearly what you want to intentionally create and [00:37:00] then going through an imaginative process and seeing how it works and being thoughtful about all the adaptations you have to make with it, right?
And then knowing how to hold yourself accountable to that. It's amazing how much, when you have an actual system in place, that you can start to see it in reality and go, oh. I can, I can bend it, I can change it. But to your point, it comes from a place of thoughtfulness that I want to change, that I want to do the work.
And then as time goes on, I prove it to myself to see, oh, and where all that come from. It was your approach mentally, it's how you're seeing it. But to your point, veterans, tons of 'em, their bodies aren't working the way they used to, but somehow they're still having a ton of success.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Vince Malts: How is that possible?
Yeah, it's 'cause they understand the sense of the game on a different level. That's fundamentally, it's exactly what it is. They're reading the game differently now.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And what are your thoughts in terms of how do we do this? Like I think I still like in terms of, there's tons of different models, but I still like, I think it was attributed to Maslow, just the four stages of [00:38:00] learning, right?
So step one where you're, I'm unconsciously incompetent. I don't even know how much I suck, right?
Vince Malts: Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And then step two is, okay, now I'm consciously incompetent. Oh, I realize how much I suck. And step three is, okay, now I'm consciously competent. Or I can do it, I can execute the things, but I, I still have to think about it.
I still have to use cues. I still have to do things.
Vince Malts: Yes.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And last stuff is I have to be unconsciously competent.
Vince Malts: Exactly.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Now it's literally happening. Before I think about it, I might think about what I want to do, but I'm not thinking about the mechanics or looking at this person or looking at that person.
I'm doing the thing correctly, but it's happening much faster because it's unconscious.
Vince Malts: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : How do you speed someone through that process? So, for myself, I think sometimes even, even kite boarding, I can almost feel that transition of, you know, trying to do jumps and what, one of the things I'll do is I'll just tell myself, I'm just gonna go ride for an hour.
Right. And [00:39:00] just, yeah, I'll practice doing it, but I'm not, I'm not putting anything, I'm not trying to hit an objective. I'm just trying to maybe do a few drills or whatever. And more often than not, like an hour, hour and a half into it, it sounds weird. It literally. Feels like I'm seeing the waves and seeing everything different and it becomes much easier, you know, kind of maybe the flow state, things of that nature.
Vince Malts: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : How do you take someone who is doing all the right stuff? Like I think again of JJ McCarthy, everyone has said he is complete football nerd, like is just putting the time and the reps in. He is a football crazy. He wants to know all the things. Oh
Vince Malts: yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson : How do you get them to be unconsciously competent faster with all the variables that get thrown in at a game?
And I think it was Drew Brees who said that it took him like four years of playing in the NFL before he felt like he kind of knew what he was doing. That he felt right. Comfortable with the systems and, and what was going on. And you think about it, you go four [00:40:00] years, holy crap. And this is a guy who was very successful doing that.
This was not some Trump who just couldn't figure it out. Exactly. You know, like any thoughts of how do you, do you agree with that progression? And then how do you kind of get people. Through that in a, because everybody wants results now and of course it's gonna take reps and, and things of that nature.
But any thoughts of any way you can maybe kind of speed that process up?
Vince Malts: Yeah. No, and I, I love the progression of the four stages. You know, one of the people that enlightened me on it was Trevor Moad, I rest Oh, okay. Where he talked about how, you know, when he was talking about stage three of the conscious competence Yeah.
He made the argument of, actually, you know what, as a professional, you need to spend more time in there. Sure. And what he was talking about was unconsciously, like you can't just go out and free play freely in a professional environment. When you're outside and you're playing, yes, you can do your thing and play free.
So like when you're describing I'm out on my own and I'm exploring what you're exploring, it [00:41:00] is in playful playfulness. But if pressure was put on the system, if suddenly you're being judged and like, all right, well let's watch how good you get at it and you've got a half hour to figure it out, and we start putting these constraints of pressure, it would completely change how you're gonna experience it.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh yeah.
Vince Malts: So, so this is the part, right. And you know, like, remember learning this from you too, of like the state of mind aspect of how. You actually learn information. So there's the part of the conscious competence is are you walking in where you're aware, okay, these are the steps that I'm gonna have to take.
So you have to get really good at that. So the adaptability, knowing the environment, knowing different teams sequences, knowing how your team operates and the rhythm and the flow of the season, beginning of the season, middle of the season, end of the season. So when you start to take a lot of that into account, which is what the vets are so good at, why they get good later on four or five years down the line is because they've experienced the rhythm and the cycles.
So they understand, okay, right now I don't have to play as hard, but later I'll have to do a little bit different. [00:42:00] But as they're coming in and their approach is more of, alright, I'm consciously competent of where I am right now, present moment, and what the pressure, what the pressure, what the elements I'm dealing with as I'm moving along.
So. So that's one of the first things is how do you get to that? And so I love, you know, the cognitive behavioral therapy type of work of where, you know, like one of the, one of the things we'll use as a framework is I do identify direct and own and it's based off of right behavior. Right. So the idea is that identify what specifically do you understand that you're gonna need to do?
So if we're talking about speeding up the process, do you understand your behavior in the context of. Whether it's systemically, what we're thinking about the team's gonna do, who you're playing with, who the opponent is, what your role is, right? Are you taking in all those variables that you're adapting into the sequence of your own behavior?
So are you able to identify that clearly knowing, alright, the pressure's on I have these constraints that I have to deal with. So do you [00:43:00] have that capability initially? Right? That's one of the first things. So being able to identify that clearly, then directing it is going, all right, well now I'm imagining all the scenarios.
So now I've identified clearly what I wanna do on this play, but that's only a primary version. There's all these secondaries that could happen, so can I adapt to all the different variables? That might potentially happen, all the different sequences, right? That in this situation, I might need to make this play off of that same primary play, or in this play I may need to change it up a little bit more.
So it's not about you not being able to take and do the play, that was the primary that you wanna do. It's you being able to branch off and say, well, I've got a hundred variations of how that play could potentially happen. So that's another way to speed it up, is can you learn all the different variation patterns and direct it through that process and become comfortable with, well, if it doesn't work this way, I'm gonna go this way.
If it doesn't do this, I'll go here. But it's still the primary play that I'm, you know, going off of. [00:44:00] And then to your point on the backend, it's so now I've said to myself, ident, I've identified it, directed the behavior, now I'm gonna own it. Now it's like, all right, I went and I experimented, I did it, I did the thing, how did it work?
And so the owning processes, that's basically afterwards where you're being able to look at it and go, alright, here's what I took away from the data. Here's what I took away from the experience. This was working these situations. Great. I'm gonna keep doing that. Or, I didn't like how this worked, so how do I adapt and change that?
Because that didn't really work the way I didn't feel as naturally as I could have. And that's where the conscious competence variation starts to come in. So I think that's a big part is if you're looking to speed it up, is being able to assess your behavior, become relentless at what do I know about the behavior of what's happening and the situation that I'm in and how I'm adapting it and knowing myself right through that.
So I think that's a big part of that conscious competence is how much do you know all the flavors of what you're gonna experience in there. And then the other part that [00:45:00] I like from a team perspective specifically is the distributed cognition. Mm-hmm. I think that gets left on the table. People are thinking too much about themselves in the process, how do I want to do it?
Dr Mike T Nelson : Mm-hmm.
Vince Malts: The reality is. Look up the research. If you're playing in a, in a team game, it's all about how we're doing it together.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Vince Malts: I was literally talking to one of my, you know, division one players on a really good high level team in the country this year, and we were talking about how, hey, how much are you talking to your line mates?
You know, you're trying to create and you're trying to score more. Great. And oh, I wanna score and I wanna shoot. Awesome. Well, how many conversations are you having with your line mates when you guys are in the offensive zone about what they're thinking about, what they're doing? Like how are you guys actually playing off each other?
Are you guys talking about that and then practicing that and working all the different formations and playing off of each other? He say, oh, we don't talk. We, we barely talk. I'm like, buddy, so you're trying, you're telling me you wanna score. Right? But you're just thinking about it. Yeah, I'm gonna go shoot some PS.
And I'm like, [00:46:00] it won't work that way of you just doing it on your own shooting pucks. Like you're playing off of a sequence of events that are happening from other human beings.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Vince Malts: So that's
Dr Mike T Nelson : isn't that fifth grade, you've got the basics down. You're you're good.
Vince Malts: Exactly. Exactly. And it's amazing how, like, I'm like, even when he said it, I'm like, really?
Like, come on, man, like you, how, how long we've been together and you're still not there thinking about that. And, and those are the, you know, those are the constraints that we're dealing with. So we're talking about speeding it up, you know, I think those are the biggest things that. Are you able to with your own behavior?
Right? Again, you can dive into it many different ways, but what's your behavior doing? Right? Identifying it, clearly, directing it, clear, owning it, and understanding that process. So now you're coming in consciously competent, but then it's that distributed cognition aspect. It's like, alright, but collectively how are we doing this together?
If you really wanna speed up, and that's the point of the veterans that you were just talking about. What they're so good at is they've read the game. How did they learn? Well, they're learning because of the pieces that [00:47:00] they're playing with. They've stopped worrying about themselves and what they think.
They're like, I'm done worrying about what I think. I don't have any more space left. I already know what I think and what I need to do. What do they think? What are they doing? Yeah. Where are they gonna go? And that is such a big differentiator. And when we talk about speed, you wanna become unbelievably fast.
Like the irony is I have a student who's considered slow by so many different people, like, oh, he needs to get faster. He's slow. And I'm like. He's literally one of the best players in his age group in the country right now at a super high level. And you're gonna tell me that he's slow. Make it make sense, man.
And that's what he's so good at, is he's able to read everybody and he knows where it's gonna end up. And he's phenomenal at that. So the distributed cognition aspect, that's the other cheat code is, you know, so many people are trying to solve it on their own and not thinking about the variables of, wait, what's the collective, what's everyone else thinking?
Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And that's someone reading from a sheet of whatever their 40 time was or whatever [00:48:00] metric they're t test, whatever metric they're using versus shocker watching actual game film and just noticing, okay, if that person is slow, do they not get to the puck in time? Are they in the wrong place? Like, what do you, and a lot of times, like you said, you'll find that they don't, they don't match up at all, right?
That their game speed is fine. So you could argue maybe on paper they're not. Fast, but they're obviously fast enough to do what they need to do in those situations.
Vince Malts: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's the part, right, is that, you know, game theory, it's simple, right? You're, you're playing a game and a lot of people get misconstrued with that of thinking like, I just want to do, well, if I'm working on my shot or I'm working on my passing or skating and hockey, they get so caught up in cognitively speaking of how they feel about how they're doing something.
When the reality is there's rules. There's rules. Like I loved how Kobe Bryant back in the day, there was, there was a, something he had, he had talked about where [00:49:00] he read the NBA rule book, referee rule book. Mm. Just to get a competitive advantage of knowing where will they stand in certain situations.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Mm.
Vince Malts: Because he knew in the game, okay, there's a specific way and sequence that they're gonna think and they're gonna move. So how can I use them inside the game? That's a whole nother level of, but that's, there he is game theory. Like he knew I'm gonna read the rule book. That's not him doing anything more skilled in, in the context of tradition.
Like we're thinking about, I'm gonna make be better at how I'm crossing over, how I'm gonna shoot. No, no. He was like, oh, I'm playing a game. I'm playing a professional game and there's referees involved and they think a certain way. I'm gonna go read their book to find out how they think so I can use that to my advantage inside of the game.
And that gets left on the table significant in another way. Right? Is are you playing the actual game that you're playing or are you playing it in your interpretation of how you want to play it? Right. I tell people all the time in the hockey world, we talk about this all the time. Like the game is never the problem.
Right. And the, the, the system, the game's not the [00:50:00] issue. It's the humans operating it.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Vince Malts: Tons of people can play the same game and play the same system, but the humans that are operating are literally what changed the output of how this whole thing runs and goes.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And I think that's a, I'm talking about distributed cognition.
I think that's an under. Appreciated aspect of injury in team sports. Whether you're looking at a, an old line defensive line in football or offensive in hockey defense, et cetera. The, the person coming in by definition may not be quite as skilled because you could argue if they were skilled enough, they would be starting, but now you're playing with different humans and you're trying to execute complex play with one other person that's different and kind.
I get it. You have practice reps and all that kinda stuff, but I think that cohesiveness, I, my guess is that that's not looked at enough compared to just the individual skillset and when you have to sub someone in and out. What I've seen, I'd be curious, what you've seen [00:51:00] is some players are just more adaptable than other players.
Like some players are really good at one hyper-specific thing and other players are just 95% good at a couple different things. And I would rather take the. 95% and a couple of different things. Or you think of like, even, I'm not a big baseball fan, but baseball used to have kind of like the utility player who could play like, you know, different roles and you think of who's the guy for the Saints, Tyson Hill.
Vince Malts: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : What was he playing? Like? Was he quarterback? Sometimes receiver. Like, what the hell? This guy's like all over the field in a professional sport.
Vince Malts: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : You know, to me that's the thing I think is incredibly valuable to a team that you can sub these people into different roles and it can still cohesively perform at a high level.
Vince Malts: Yeah, yeah. No, you nailed it. It's, it's system reliability, right? There's a whole mathematical argument, right? It's 90%, 90%. The more components you add, right? The less reliable the system gets and that you nailed it. Like if an [00:52:00] organization understands, wow, this person's gonna give us this 95% of the time, but then how do you relate that to somebody else?
How can that elevate what this other person does? That's the art. And, and yeah. Yeah, that is a much more challenging way. But that's a sophisticated coach who knows how to blend the art and the science together. And there's very few leaders and coaches out there that know how to look at it that way.
'cause the other constraints you deal with, especially at a professional level, is you'll be getting also, well, the management is saying, you have to do this so that now it's not just about you being able to see it the way you wanna do it, it's, well, you're being told by somebody else, well you have to play this guy or you have to do it this way.
And that becomes challenging where you're trying to fit in and develop the system where, well, if I wanna take somebody that yeah, understands, and I can, I know I can rely on them in this way, but then manager will say, well, it doesn't matter. This guy has to play in the position there. It's, it's so challenging to develop a process where you're not really in control completely of the system.
You're [00:53:00] always gonna have somebody else changing it up and adapting it. So that's one of the biggest constraints that's hard for most coaches is where you come in. You know, to an ecosystem, you get your 3, 4, 5 years and you have to move so quickly through it because in the end, why do most get fired?
Because there's all these things going on in the background that you had no idea about. The players think one thing and it's so challenging, but they have no idea of the conversations going on behind closed doors. And that's the challenge for the system, is that wow, the players that know how to go a certain way, oh, how do we include them in here?
But the reality is, yeah, but you didn't include all these other ways that you know, like, well, you've got these other guys, they need their time. You're gonna hurt their feelings and or their contract and we've gotta pay them more. It's. All these other variables that play into it that are just such a pain in the butt for everybody.
Like that's what makes, you know, like you said, the pro game so complex. It's not just the simple developmental linear progression, you know, that you can always go, there's always this, oh, new coach, oh well now that's [00:54:00] completely shifted, you know, the air in the room. Like, wow, you smell different. You, you used to smell like vanilla in your mouth, smells like laughing, all that stuff.
Yeah. So he plays into it.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And again, I'm all my Vikings football analogies, you can tell when we're recording this, but I think of like Brian Flores with his defense, like the first year he came in, he did pretty good, did stuff that not a lot of other people are doing, but I'd argue. Even now that there's a ton of film on him and other teams are actively preparing, knowing exactly or as best they can, what he's gonna do, or, you know, the first kind of year you don't really have that.
There's just not a lot of existing film per se from the defense side. But I think he is actually gotten better because he's been able to select players that fit within his system instead of having to adapt players into his system that may or may not necessarily be a good fit. And again, it doesn't mean that they're a bad player or anything like that, but his system is all about adaptability.
Having the players make decisions on the [00:55:00] field because they're closer to the reality of what's going on. You know, trying to disguise things, you know, not give the opponent an idea of what you're gonna do or execute. And then again, like you have to have players that can execute that too. You know, I think coaches a lot of times get, you know, maybe correctly criticized or not.
But it's like, if, if the play worked, it could be the worst call in the world, then no one's gonna care. They're like, Hey, it worked. Yay. He is a, he is a wizard. You know? Or it could be the right call and just poorly execute it. Right. Because again, you're dealing with complex humans and shocker the other team's trying to prevent you from doing whatever it was you were trying to do on top of it.
Vince Malts: Exactly.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Like it's pretty complicated.
Vince Malts: Yeah, no, there's a natural disposition there. That's the problem.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Vince Malts: Hey, if this person naturally is gonna do what I'm doing, well then wow. The cognitive burden that could go on a stressful season Yeah. Is lot less. 'cause I can trust this person's gonna do it, but when we go the other way and we try to change somebody into it, well you have to invest so much more [00:56:00] cognitive horsepower to do that.
And that's hard.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Last couple of questions. Will we wrap up? Again, talk to you forever. We'll have to have you back on again.
Vince Malts: Oh
Dr Mike T Nelson : yeah. From. So people listening to this on an individual level, you talked about kind of, you know, kinda state before skills and prioritizing their state. What are, what are some things like, maybe like a quick list of like top four things as an individual they could do to increase their performance If they're at a, you know, a lot of people who listen to this are going to the gym, they're kind of doing more in an individual type sport.
What in your experience, are a couple things that they could implement or should at least think about?
Vince Malts: Oh yeah. So, you know, if we talk about from a state perspective I just picked up that sh shift wave, by the way. I know you're loving the
Dr Mike T Nelson : oh, you did? Oh dude, I just used it again today. It's amazing, isn't it?
Vince Malts: Oh my, I can't wait. I think it's coming in like three days.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh, awesome. How'd you hear about it?
Vince Malts: So actually Dr. Sean Drake turned me onto it.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh, [00:57:00] cool.
Vince Malts: Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's all, yeah, I can't wait. I'm like pumped. So that's one of the first things is breathing, you know, like fine. Obviously, you know, shift wave is a whole different element.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, breathing from a state perspective, I, I couldn't believe when I started to practice it how much I'm like, wow. Like, it's crazy how you can literally feel your state of consciousness shift, but then it's like when you walk around and how much more relaxed you feel with it, right? So I think breathing is, you know, so many people focus a lot of times on what can I mentally do?
And they forget about the physiological aspect of, well, sometimes there's physiological things you can do to just get your state to relax and then boom, you're thinking clear, sharper in different ways. So I think breathing is one of the first things to like start to practice, right? It's really paying attention to.
Can I shift my physiological state and then observe what comes to mind. 'cause as soon as you feel good, your thoughts feel good, right? Mm-hmm. So it's kind of one of those things. So that's gonna be one of the first things is that being able to do that. [00:58:00] Right. Another one, definitely, I'm a fan of meditation obviously as well, but being able to do that, to shift into that, but it's meditation's a more advanced skill.
I feel. It, it takes a while for people to really get into it.
Dr Mike T Nelson : It's hard to get buy into my experience too.
Vince Malts: Yes. Big time. Big time. So the other part that I'd say is putting yourself under stressful conditions and learning how to deal with that and feeling like you can do it. So one of the things that I love about cold baths is it's a mental thing for me.
It's not a,
Dr Mike T Nelson : for sure.
Vince Malts: Yeah. Like, I love the fact that if I go in for two to three minutes, in 37, 38 degree. You know, water that when I go in there, I've learned how to breathe in it and I can control it. And I've learned to feel the pain. And then when I get out the rest of the day is a joke. Yeah. So easy.
Like anything, anything else that comes in that's hard. It's like, well, I just did something insanely challenging, physiological earlier, so that challenge now I'm like, all right, I'm good. Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And it's, it always sucks too. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, in COVID I've talked about, I did it almost every day for two and a half years in a [00:59:00] row, and at the end of it I thought, and then I got better at it, and I got better at controlling it.
I got better I think, at the skillset.
Vince Malts: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Even now, I've still never had a single day like before. I get in going, oh, it's gonna be easy. There's always that hesitation of like, this is gonna suck. But I think that's the skill that you get to practice then, because it sucks.
Vince Malts: Bingo. Bingo. Exactly. And that's the irony is like, yes, you can go to the gym and you can work out and put your body stress.
Sure. That'll do it. But that could take 40 minutes, an hour. Yeah. Whatever. It's half hour. This takes you a couple minutes. It's like, that's what's nice is if you can deal with the intensity, it's just, it's quick. It hits you, but then mentally you're like, all right, let's go. Right? Yeah, yeah. Like the dopamine kicks in and you're, you're ready to go.
Yeah. Like you get after it. So, so I love that one, you know, from a, put your body under stress, you know, so that, that's another big one, you know? And then communication is another one. Massive one, right? Is, and what I mean by that is, you know, something as simple as, you know, we forget about affirmation, the power of affirmation, of where affirmation is.
And I am [01:00:00] strong, I am weak. Yes, you can, I, I believe in myself. Yes, that's all good. But affirming your process, talking to people about what you're doing, having confidence sharing, knowing that you can really share your process, articulate it, and know clearly what you're doing also helps you. Not only are you teaching it and then getting it to absorb the information.
But the self-talk that it develops in your head, it becomes so much more natural in your mind. Right. So when you talk about the unconscious competence, that's something that we tell our athletes all the time, right? We use a one of our frameworks, we'll use question stories, conversations.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Mm-hmm.
Vince Malts: Yeah.
The conversations. Right. It's like you've gotta ask meaningful questions. You've gotta know the story in your head, but that's the part that you're doing on your own. But the conversations, you have to articulate it to the world. Right? And, and you know, vagus nerve like singing, we all know that. Like when you use your vagal tone, you go out and you, you singing in the car, man, I feel so good.
Well, it's the equivalent of. If you talk your system, if you share it and you confidently feel good about it, that's actually going inside and developing [01:01:00] your vagal tone of like, Hey, I know what I'm saying. I can feel it. I'm not just making this up. I'm speaking from a place of conviction because I literally, physiologically can feel it coming out of me.
So communication sharing, yes, I feel confidence in this. Yep. This is my pro. And again, I use process based language because you can't just say, oh yeah, I'm good. Right? It's like players ask, do you think you're good? Yeah, I'm good. Well, why? Why do you think you're good?
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And
Vince Malts: it's like, no, no. Why are you good?
Like, let me know why you're good. And with that, it's like when you talk through it, it changes you Like, it's like, okay, now I know why I'm good. Well, I do this and here's what and this I need to work on. But you're confident at it. You know where you're good at and you know where you're weak at, and you can share that.
And, and create belief in that. So I think that's another big one. Conversation, right? A affirm it out into the world. You know, and then, and then the last one certainly not least, is who you're surrounded by.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh, yeah. You
Vince Malts: know,
Dr Mike T Nelson : environment. So,
Vince Malts: huge environment. Like if you're not around people that [01:02:00] believe in you, that support you, that genuinely love you.
I don't care how many of these things you practice, it won't work. Like I, I tell people all the time, I give 'em the simple analogy, right? It's like. Alright, I can take a world class, anybody, world class, anybody and put them into a professional environment and they will be very good at what they do.
They'll, they'll do their thing professionally and they'll do what they do. But if the coach hates them, management, if there's all these people that don't like what they do, they will still do a good job. But what you're leaving on the table is the spiritual aspect of wow. If you show that person love, not only are they gonna do an incredible job for you, but now they're gonna go above and beyond to create more for you.
They're gonna wanna do, oh, how much more can I help you? What else can I do? You unlock this other part of them that's like, now I feel like I, I'm attached to you. I wanna do more for you. And that's what you leave on the table with these world class individuals is that if you don't feel that love, if you're not giving that, that belief, yeah, they'll still do a good job.
But you have no idea what you left on the table when [01:03:00] you didn't give 'em that love. So that's the other part where if you're not surrounded by people that genuinely believe in you and they're giving you that, that spiritual energy, you're in trouble because it's gonna be, no matter how much you do, the baths and the breathing and the, you know, the cognitive, the communication, it's all good.
But if human to human, we're participating together. If I don't feel it coming off of you, none of this stuff works. I don't care who you are or, or you can't optimize what you are, like, what you, what you're truly capable of. If you're not surrounded by that, nah. You
Dr Mike T Nelson : have a big anchor on your performance.
Vince Malts: Big time. It's heavy. It's heavy. As opposed to when you're letting me be that it's light, it's just the heaviness goes away. Like you feel lighter now, like, oh yeah, alright, let's go instantly faster. Right? All the nervous systems stuff, the psychological safety, all the research, right? Google Aristo proved it like, when I feel comfortable, that's nervous system.
Let's go. When I don't feel, when I don't feel comfortable, I'm restricted.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, you can see that in old school [01:04:00] coaches, even in the NFL and other sports too, where the old school court would be if you did something wrong, they're just gonna, you know, chew you out and mm-hmm. I think it was, it may not have been Pete Carroll, but, and maybe it was him, someone said to asked him, they're like, this is years ago.
They said, oh, like I just made a huge mistake. He's like, I saw you went over on the sidelines and you talked to him and you gave him a hug. He's like, why didn't you chew him out? And he is like, do you think that he doesn't feel bad enough for the mistake that he made? He's incredibly conscious of the mistake that he made.
We may have a discussion later, we'll work on coaching, we'll work on trying to fix it. But in that moment, during the game, me yelling at him is only gonna make him worse and perform worse. In that particular instance, I was like, oh, that's so good.
Vince Malts: Nailed it. Right. The arousal theory, it's like the arousal comes up and we know the emotional imprint that that hits at that moment of like.
Hey, those moments, you can't recreate them. There's no, there's no practicing those moments.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Vince Malts: You, you either catch 'em and then you imprint it or not. And [01:05:00] that's, that's beautiful. I love, I love that stuff.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Awesome. So great stuff, man. I appreciate it. And where can people find out more about you?
Vince Malts: Yeah, so bloodline Hockey, right? That's the website and all that stuff. And then I'm on Instagram, you know, under coach Vinnie Maltz so you can find me there and all that. That's usually the easy spots and Awesome. Or contact you.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, for sure. And you work with both teams and individuals, is that correct?
A lot of NHL primarily. But do you do other sports?
Vince Malts: Yeah, yeah. I can help out with other sports teams. Even messing around sometimes with business people, executives, stuff like that. So try to, you know, the, the, all the high performance stuff as you know, it, it intertwines with everything. It's almost,
Dr Mike T Nelson : yeah, all the principles are almost identical, which is so crazy.
Vince Malts: It's cra it's universal wisdom as old as time. It's just universal.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Awesome. Well, yeah, I'd highly encourage everyone to check out your stuff and thank you so much for sharing everything today. Really appreciate it.
Vince Malts: Yeah, same. Thanks
Dr Mike T Nelson : man. Awesome. Thank you buddy.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for [01:06:00] listening to the podcast. Really, really appreciate it. Huge thanks to Vince for being on the podcast and sharing all the wonderful knowledge and just practical experience. Uh, he has compiled over many, many years, but highly encourage you to check out all of his stuff. We got links to everything he is involved with down below.
And again, huge thanks to him. Always enjoy, uh, chatting with him. Want more information for me? Best place is the Fitness Insider Newsletter. Go to mike t nelson.com. You'll see a little link up at the top. You can click on it to join the newsletter. We also have a direct link down below and that is the best place if you have specific questions for me and if you want more information on everything going on last, try to send you great information on a daily basis that will help you increase muscle, increase performance, improve body composition.
Also check out my friend's overhead shift wave. Again, I've been using this device for several months now, [01:07:00] and there's not a lot of things, especially in the passive therapy realm that I continue to use, that I do find actually move the needle. And, uh, this is one of 'em that has been extremely effective.
Uh, one of the things I've done, which I got, uh, from them was if my sleep is a little bit off and I wake up early and I can't get back to bed. They have a protocol called synthetic sleep, and it's in essence mimicking some of the aspects of sleep. So instead of lying in bed, like trying to count sheep for the next hour, I'll just get up and do a half hour to an hour of the synthetic sleep.
And I find that a handful of times I've done this, I've probably done this maybe six, seven times now, and the day goes great. Um, it really, really seems to help. So if you're interested in that, feel free to hit me up with any questions or contact them directly. I have a link down below. Uh, it is an affiliate link, so I do make a few [01:08:00] clams off of it, but like I said, it's been extremely effective.
So highly recommend you check them out. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast again. Huge thanks to Vince. Check out all of his great stuff. You can do us a favor and give us the old. Thumbs up or stars downloads, subscribe, all that great stuff. It helps a ton to get better distribution on the podcast here.
Helps us get, uh, continually, uh, great guests. If you have any suggestions or anything else, let me know. If you can even take 30 seconds to leave us a review, that goes a huge, long ways in helping us out. If there's someone you want to listen to this, feel free to forward them this episode or tag me on a social media.
So thank you so much for listening to the podcast. We've got much more coming up next week. Again, have a wonderful day. Thanks again.
Speaker 3: There's something wrong [01:09:00] with his hearing aid.
Speaker 4: Yeah. What's wrong?
Speaker 3: I can't hear with it.
Speaker 4: Oh, no wonder. It's too far away.
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