Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast! Today, I’m hanging out with the brilliant Katie Emerson, Senior Manager of Scientific Affairs over at Kyowa Hakko USA, aka the people behind Cognizin (CDP Choline), one of the few brain-boosting ingredients with legit research behind it. We dig into the real science of CDP Choline, how it supports memory, focus, and cognitive performance, and where it actually fits into the human physiology engine, not the hype machine. Katie and I also zoom out into the supplement industry as a whole, chatting about what’s worth paying attention to, what’s still emerging, and how to navigate all the shiny promises out there. We even take a nerd-tour into mental resilience, genetic mapping, and the surprising potential of glutathione for health and performance. If you’re curious how targeted supplements can help you think faster, recover better, and be a more high-performing human without needing a PhD to decode marketing nonsense, this episode is for you.
Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast! Today, I’m hanging out with the brilliant Katie Emerson, Senior Manager of Scientific Affairs over at Kyowa Hakko USA, aka the people behind Cognizin (CDP Choline), one of the few brain-boosting ingredients with legit research behind it.
We dig into the real science of CDP Choline, how it supports memory, focus, and cognitive performance, and where it actually fits into the human physiology engine, not the hype machine. Katie and I also zoom out into the supplement industry as a whole, chatting about what’s worth paying attention to, what’s still emerging, and how to navigate all the shiny promises out there.
We even take a nerd-tour into mental resilience, genetic mapping, and the surprising potential of glutathione for health and performance.
If you’re curious how targeted supplements can help you think faster, recover better, and be a more high-performing human without needing a PhD to decode marketing nonsense, this episode is for you.
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mike T. Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things to increase muscle, improve performance, and to do it in a flexible framework without destroying your health. To date on the podcast, I've got my good friend Katie Emerson. And she is a done many things right now.
She is the senior manager of Scientific Affairs at Kaiwa Haka USA. The main ingredient you might have heard from them is Cognizant, also known as uh, CDP Choline. She is a registered and licensed dietician, a research scientist, and she is currently also pursuing her PhD in exercise science. And in this podcast we had a really great discussion about [00:01:00] kind of the inside look at the supplement industry.
Um, what are some of the different ingredients and what are some of the benefits? Uh, we've got many other episodes on the, in the past about creatine. So on this one I wanted to do something that you might be familiar with or you might not. Um, so I originally gotta see Katie again at the ISSN Conference, which is great.
If you want to check that out, it'll be again in June in Florida. I don't have the exact dates here in front of me but I'll be presenting there this year and looks like I'm. From what I've heard as always, they've got a, a great lineup. Uh, there. So here we're probably talking about, uh, CDP choline, uh, which has some very good, uh, benefits to performance, memory, um, cognition, as I mentioned, you may have heard it called acetylcholine.
And it's kind of one of those, I think is becoming a lot more popular now. Uh, and [00:02:00] it's got a ton of, um, great data. So I wanted Katie to come on here and to. Talk all about that. And then we even get into things like mental resilience and performance, some even genetic mapping. Uh, what are some of the dosing of acetylcholine?
And we also explored a few other things such as a glutathione. So I think you will enjoy this episode if you're looking for simple supplements and ways to enhance your performance and cognition. And also as our sponsors. The main one is myself, so if you want more information from me, you can go to mike t nelson.com is the best place for that and hop onto the newsletter.
Uh, we're in the process of redoing the website, but it should just be pretty easy, uh, to figure out where to hop on the newsletter completely free. And we'll also send you a great gift. And [00:03:00] then in the Flex four, I asked her, uh, rapid fire, what are the top four things people should know about acidic choline as a supplement?
So if you want to hear that exclusive content that only goes to the people on the Insider newsletter list. So if you're already on the Insider newsletter, you will get that sent out to you. If not, like I said, you can still hop on for free and you'll get that, uh, flex four rapid fire question sent to you automatically, and you'll also get all of the other flex four questions that are very short and something you can take action on right away.
And they have never been released to the podcast or anywhere else publicly. So go to mike t nelson.com, hop on to the newsletter and you'll be able to get all that cool stuff for free. So without further ado, here is a good friend Katie Emerson.
[00:04:00]
Dr Mike T Nelson : Welcome to the podcast. How are you? Good to see you again.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: I'm good. So good to see you. Nice catching up.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, I got to see you again at ISSN. You were nice enough to cart me around to dinner one night.
That was fun.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah, I love having dinner conversations after an event like ISSN 'cause the topics keep flowing and you get different opinions from different people. So, that's probably my favorite event of the year.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, my, my favorite too. And it's not only are the presentations great and everybody there is just super cool, it's this weird hybrid mix of like hardcore academics to practitioners, to new people in the field.
And it's like seeing a lot of old friends. I don't see, maybe only like once a year. Really? Yeah. Like sometimes I see a few more times than that. And. Like you said, the dinner conversations and the hallway conversations. And I always feel like I have my little list in my head of people I wanna see and see what's going on.
And I, if I'm [00:05:00] good, I only get to 70% at best, isn't
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: that funny? And it's you try to leave the conference and go to the bathroom and you get stopped six times on the way because it's I wanna, and then you'll be in the middle of a conversation, it's Hey, I wanna talk to you.
But you're right. It's such a fun mix. And I say this to everybody if anyone's never gone to ISSN, so International Society of Sports Nutrition, it's always in Florida, it is one event where you have hardcore experts, like top of the line researchers from all over that come in and like they can lend so much expertise and knowledge, but also they're open to, sorry, that's my dog.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh, you're good.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Let me go grab him. Is that okay?
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Yeah. All.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: And they go absolutely nuts.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh, all good.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: So, yeah, so it's a place where the experts, they come and they teach you, but they also are willing to learn. Mm-hmm. Which I feel like is different than a lot of other [00:06:00] events. If a student is there, they listen and they're open, so it's a give and take learning experience from experts to novices. And there's really no like ego, which is hard to say when you're with someone who's been in a research position for 30, 40 years and have published hundreds of thousands of papers, they always put their ego aside and it just becomes a fun conversation around science.
So, yeah. ISSN my favorite event of the year.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And it's also fun just to meet people. You've read a lot of the research and people you, you know on the periphery and. Like you said, just the conversations outside, because sometimes if you're like a hardcore nerd, like we are, you feel like no one really reads any research.
No one's really doing anything. And then I remember it was a couple years ago we were at a speaker dinner with DC and Dr. Dan who used to work in
mm-hmm.
And we just started [00:07:00] drinking and arguing about, in a nice, polite way about the effect of exercise and nutrition and which one was better and.
We eventually, we got kicked out of the free bar there, and so we're walking down the street and they're like pulling up papers on their, I, on their phones and shit. And we ended up talking in the lobby for another hour after that.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: That is the best. So even my husband's a physician and we don't fight, but we have scientific debates.
Yeah. And so our students are like, are you guys getting divorced? And I'm like, no, we're just arguing over like an exercise protocol and what nutritional approach to take. And it's so, it is like that at ISSN and I love getting into those debates. And it is cool when I meet someone there and then I go home and I'm reading papers and I see the author and I'm like, Hey, I just spoke to them.
It, it's, it just comes full circle. So it's such a fun, fun event to, to do with people and then meeting you, I think I was just like picking your brain about things. Oh yeah. Own injuries and I'm just like, Hey, what do you think about this? So yeah, it's just such a great [00:08:00] pool of of knowledge from everybody.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, we had dinner and I got to sit next to Arnie, who's been doing this research for decades and is just you can ask him anything. And he is just oh, back in the day we did this thing and that thing. And it's just, it's always ar you just learn a ton of stuff.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Oh yeah. I love Arnie.
He's been a mentor of mine for many years and it's just, he's, it's so great catching up with people.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. So our plug that we didn't even get paid for, you should go to ISSN this coming year. It'll be in June in Florida. I don't have the dates in front of me but it's
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: always like the second week of June, second or third week.
Sounds
Dr Mike T Nelson : about right.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah. And it was in Delray last year. I don't know where it is this year. Probably
Dr Mike T Nelson : closer to Joey's house again.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Joey and I live one mile apart.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh really?
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yes. I literally one mile apart, and I always joked to him, I'm like, why don't we have it in Stewart in our town? And he's the conference center isn't big enough.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh, that was the [00:09:00] reason.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah. We, he tried.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm sure he is tried.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yep.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Awesome. Well, I know you'll be there again. I'll be doing a short talk there next year too, so everybody Oh good. What,
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: what's your talking gonna be on?
Dr Mike T Nelson : I believe it's on, I think it's on wearables actually, so.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, there's a lot of new research that my company's looking into of possibly using wearables. So, and so I'm always skeptical, like, how validated is it? What population has it been tested in? What measures are sensitive enough? So that would be interesting. I will attend that.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Thank you.
Yeah. It's, IN is also one of the rare organizations where I feel like I can. Submit different talks every couple of years and it's accepted. Obviously you have to have the background, you have to have the knowledge in it and that type of thing, a couple years ago I did a talk on psychedelics years before I did one on metabolic flexibility.
Now I'm doing one on wearables. So it's fun where I feel like a lot of older organizations, there's no way they would let you do [00:10:00] that. You get pigeonholed into only one thing and that's all you ever get to talk about.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah. We're, I'm always throwing ideas out to Joey and I'm just like, Hey.
And I even mentioned the debate session. I was like,
Dr Mike T Nelson : yes David, I think we should do that. David,
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: David Church and I were totally joking, but seriously, David? No I'm serious,
Dr Mike T Nelson : David,
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: we need to get debate stands up there and we need to get a hot topic and just each person gets 30 seconds to a minute to talk and just back and forth.
I'm like, that would be so entertaining.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Or even like they do the data blitz, you could have a data debate right? Where each person gets. Maybe 60 seconds to two minutes to de decide their side. The other person gets that time. You each only get one 32nd rebuttal and then the audience has to vote who won or something.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yes. Okay, Joey, we this, we need to do this. Yeah. Because those are what's fun
Dr Mike T Nelson : too, right? Even if the person doesn't agree with the topic they're presenting, all these people are well versed enough in the science [00:11:00] to, pull out the literature and then you can show that just because someone may have a convincing argument, then the other person has the opposite argument like, Ooh, that sounds good too.
Yeah.
So you realize it's more complicated than what the simplistic 30 seconds take away on TikTok or whatever the kids are doing nowadays,
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: yep, exactly. Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Awesome. So yeah, so tell us a little about, I know you work for a supplement company, and I initially found you through a lot of the research on CDP choline, which I've been following that research for.
Quite some time and feel like for up until the past few years, it was one of those, I call it like when I did formulations for companies, like a under the radar ingredient because a lot of times companies is not so much now, but especially five years ago, where there's that much research on it.
This stuff actually works. I'm like, yeah, there's like a ton of research on it and it wasn't really widely used [00:12:00] until now, but it's cool to see a lot more stuff coming out about it.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah, I honestly, so I, so Kia Oaco, USA is where I'm at, and it's a Japanese company that does ferment fermentation nutrients.
And it actually comes from the parent company, Kieran Holdings. So Itchy Bon beer? Don't, oh, I didn't
Dr Mike T Nelson : know it was the same company.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah. So, ah, I would say, and they do their beer through fermentation, like obviously. Yep. So they use the same patented ah, ary technology for these nutrients. So sit choline, which is called, is the branded form of Cognizant.
And then glutathione is called tria. And so it's through this fermentation process, which, lends to be a little bit more high, pure purity and quality ingredient that will in theory be more bioavailable and extend to more outcome-based measures from a clinical stance. So I was at a, I guess a competing company before won't mention the name but I started reading about Cognizant or, you [00:13:00] can call it ctic choline, you can call it CDP choline.
It's got, plenty of names. All the same
Dr Mike T Nelson : thing, right?
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: All it's all the same compound.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: I started reading about their science and just being so intrigued to one an endogenous substance that I have within my body that I was. Unknowing about, but also the fact that it is a pharmaceutical drug over in Japan used to treat stroke in hospitals.
But here in the US it's a dietary supplement that has been thoroughly researched for over 30 years and a variety of age groups and in different body regions. So like even four year olds for eye health. And then you've got 80 year olds looking at long-term cognitive memory using mini mental state exams.
So trying to combat that cognitive decline due to aging. And then we have us. Ki Oaco, USA, that's like, how do we use this in the health science spaces and use it for things that people are looking for, like the now focus, attention, reaction, time processing, speed. [00:14:00] So there's some really interesting studies that we've conducted and my job coming on board was to expand the research.
'cause normally they've done it through the Japanese research center, but I was like, we're a US company. We should be doing it through the us. And so, we are starting to team up with some really awesome partners, and I think you will know all of these names. Tim Zain at CAHS. Mm-hmm. He is he just ran a proof of concept study for us to look at acute measures.
So what's happening when you take acetylcholine within one to four hours? That is going to, we just got the data. We had a week, what is today? Thursday? We had a meeting Monday. Oh, Monday morning. Nice 8:00 AM We went through the data and I'm so excited. There's EEG measures. There's some really, we did like palms profile moves.
Oh, cool. So it will not be published, it's gonna be internal data only, but we're discussing how we can put it out there. This is something maybe I may ask that I can present at ISSN. Yeah, because it's some [00:15:00] really cool stuff. So Tim is working on that. He's also working on a mood study for us.
I'm working with Chad Ick for glutathione, maybe doing another POC proof of concept study, looking at gut health with glutathione. And then the biggest one that I'm the most excited about 'cause it's sports, is Rick Kreider at Texas a and m. We're gonna be doing a sports performance light test with Cognizant.
And so we've got lots going on and I'm already have to start planning for 2026 and I don't even know where to go. But that is the cool thing about Kiawa is we keep investing in the science and we keep expanding and researching new areas and. It's such a, it's such an untouchable ingredient, like this cooler is all cognizant filled beverages.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh, nice.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: And then I've got like a ton of protein bars from Mosh that have cognizant in it. So it's like you could, it's so versatile in what you can do, and then it's even just as versatile and what it does in the human body. So very cool nutrient.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And the Dr. Kreider, so you said was light, is that looking at like a [00:16:00] reaction time to different lights?
There's all different systems that do that from the high end functional neurology ones to like the consumer blaze pod type thing. And
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: yeah. Did something like that. We were thinking about the dyno vision, but then mm-hmm. I started thinking about, so one of my roles is claim substantiation.
And it's not easy to take science from a clinical setting and putting it in a real world setting. Yeah. Because they don't always translate. Right. You know this. So our customers are like, how. What you're doing in the clinic, how is that gonna translate into real world application for sports? And so I'm, I was thinking about this and I was like, the dyno vision is just hand-eye coordination, but a lot of sports require your feet.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Mm-hmm. And,
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: and both. Upper and lower extremities simultaneously. So Rick and I were discussing how do we do this? We, there were some ideas tossed around about sitting down and having the lights that are movable, I think it's called the fit light system. Mm-hmm. So you could do hands, feet [00:17:00] touching all the time, but then I was like, oh, that limits, if you're sitting so what about if we stand and put it in a circle and then they have to like have change of direction, which is great for multiple sports, right?
You have to be able to react and turn and using feet and hands at different times. I'm like, should they hold a plank? And then touch them? So this is like the cool part of my job is like, how do I organize this in a way that when I do translate it to a big customer, say GNC and they say, well, how can we tell our customers how it was tested and how they can, look for improvements in the gym?
I can accurately and confidently say, well, we did test it in. Different settings and solve positive results. Hopefully see positive results. I can't predict science, but it's a very cool study with Rick and I think he's a great partner to do it with.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, that's awesome. And you had mentioned just different canned beverages because I think one of the cool things you can speak to this is that it's actually stable in liquid and the shelf life [00:18:00] is pretty good because, the classic one here is creatine, which everyone's familiar with.
The creatine long term in liquid is just not stable. I know Gladia and there's some other companies that claim to have maybe some better forms and maybe weighs around that possibly. But historically, people have tried to put it in beverages and tried all sorts of different things and when you run the analysis it just doesn't stay long.
Yeah. This is not to if people put some in their drink and they go to the gym you're fine. But we're talking like, days, weeks, months. Yep. Years. It just slowly degrades where cyl choline is, appears to be quite stable, correct?
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: It is. And we do a lot of thorough quality testing. So once it's been in an, a new application, whether it's a gummy lollipop bar we continue to do efficacy testing to make sure that the composition that we originally put in it is still there at the end product.
So sometimes you gotta do some overage, which typically is normal anyways. Mm-hmm. But it's, for us, it's [00:19:00] all about being transparent in the science. And if I tested it at two 50 milligrams in the clinical setting and saw these results, well then I want that to be accurately reflected in the product.
And so I also wanna make sure that not only was that intended dose put in the beginning, but it should be there when it's consumed as well. So we do that. And I've got several in products, but they're also in coffee. There's non ALK beverages, there's fermented, not fermented, but fortified waters, which is interesting.
I don't know if you've seen those.
Dr Mike T Nelson : I haven't seen those yet.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: The caramel water they keep the, actually it's in the, it's in the cooler, but they keep all of the ingredients up in the cap, so it's
Dr Mike T Nelson : ah, the
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: delivery system. Yep. And when you're ready, you push it and then you shake it, which you don't have to do that with CTIC choline because like we were just talking about.
Yep. It's extremely stable. But I guess they have some other, they have some B vitamins in there that they're worried about, not holding in a liquid solution for long periods, but so that's a pretty cool delivery system. But yeah, CTIC choline, no [00:20:00] flavor really. No smell. We, no, it's
Dr Mike T Nelson : surprisingly, 'cause if you've ever, yeah, one of the things I do with Roz, which again, I would not recommend people do this, but I just literally dump the capsule in my mouth to see what it tastes like.
Oh yeah. Because whoever is formulating it, the next person down the line, the flavor massacre, whoever. Like they wanna know Hey, this is pretty astringent, or this is neutral. Or this has, because that makes a big difference depending upon what you're trying to do. Because as like long gone are the days of only marketing to the hardcore crowd who don't care what anything tastes like.
Like those days have not existed for quite a while. It doesn't taste
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: good.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Taste good now almost no one's going to use the product. There are a few niches and rare exceptions to that, but in terms of mass appeal, like it has to taste pretty good and has to, show up in meat label claims and everything else.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah. I never gave flavor houses the respect that they deserve.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Dude, it's hard. [00:21:00] I
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: gotta sit in on a sensory testing for one of the companies and we were. How meticulous
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh yeah,
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: it is To have a single flavor and have a, just a row of variations, and then to taste the different notes and to walk through this process with the company, the contract manufacturer, the flavor house, and then the customer the end product manufacturer, and then the, we, the ingredient company there.
So it was such a unique situation that I'm very grateful that I was able to participate in, because now I see how complicated it is, and I'm much more appreciative when I do get a beverage or food that just, it hits the note of what the flavor is supposed to be. So, and at the end of the day, you can have the best ingredients in a product, but if it tastes like crap, nobody's going to consume it.
So yeah, flavor houses respect. You have a hard job.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And that is also the hard thing, [00:22:00] if you're starting kind of your own supplement or you're a smaller brand, like I looked at years ago, I wanted to put CDP and some other things in as a coffee neutropic. And so I went and had everything all specked out, had everything done, and the bugger was the ingredients I wanted.
The raws were still pretty high, 'cause CDP, especially seven years ago, was definitely more expensive than it is now. And the minimum runs to do anything were crazy high. And the issue was with the flavor house is they could do one flavor per run. So I'm like, oh my God, what if the customers don't like this flavor or it tastes a little bit weird?
Like I am out a large amount of cap a lot sitting with this product I can't sell. Yeah, they ended up like canning the whole. The whole thing. And I think it's gotten easier now. And I get it, like if you're doing that type of [00:23:00] work, a lot of it's proprietary. A lot of it is your own data that you have, and there has to be return on that investment.
So a lot of times doing smaller runs, doing things like that, not really efficacious. On the flip side, like seeing bigger companies go through months and months of hundreds of iterations of this slight tweak to that and tasting like the three different kinds of, red B and red a and the sweeteners alone and how they affected and then if you want to use, like acetol carnitine or something that's really astringent.
Okay, how do we mask that? How do we get that to stay? It gets be complicated really fast.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: It is a complicating process. I glad that's not. Part of my job. Like I,
Dr Mike T Nelson : I
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: do it every once in a while, but and then when I get people asking like, Hey, we're having a manufacturing problem or a formulation issue, if something doesn't seem to be working.
And I'm like, well, it's not our ingredient. 'cause I can promise you it plays very friendly and yeah, it's super, super easy to [00:24:00] use. It's so easy to use and it's so, which is the
Dr Mike T Nelson : exception, not the rule. Yeah,
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: exactly. And we just had a situation with that and I wrote back, I was like, I promise you it's not our ingredient.
Please check the other ingredients and do your testing there. 'cause I'm pretty sure it's not ours, but we're still willing to help. Of course. But yeah, the whole process is very interesting and instead of choline itself is just such a fascinating compound. I recommend it to almost anybody truly even, well, I can't say that on the air regulatory hat on real quick.
I was like, don't say that. But like my kids who are older they love the drinks and the protein bars and the lollipops from Ollie. So it's such a, it's a choline donor, but it does so much more than that.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Explain to what exactly is it if people are not familiar and what are some of the mechanisms of how it works?
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah. It's so it is endogenous. We do make it, but we don't, and I say this to a lot of people, and I think this is pretty common. When we say the poison is in the dose, well the benefit is in the dose as [00:25:00] well. So, I hear people saying, oh, well, can you hit a ceiling effect? I'm like, sure, you can hit a ceiling effect with almost.
Everything right? Oh, sure. Like water, right? Yeah. Which is essential for our bodies, but so what I, we are finding with cyl choline is that it is the rate limiting step in the Kennedy pathway. So if you start with choline, it goes all the way down, and then the rate limiting step cyl choline, and then it will go to phosphatidylcholine, which is a phospholipid.
And that makes up 30% of the phospholipids in your phospholipid bilayer in your neuronal cells. And so in your brain, you have different cells that communicate with one another through some synaptic communication. So that's gonna trigger neurotransmitters like acetylcholine, norepinephrine. Dopamine.
And then there is we're discovering some indirect effects with serotonin, so possibly some mood effects. But it, it does more than that. So that's gonna translate to better focus and [00:26:00] attention and communication. And so working memory, things like that, short-term memory. But then the phospholipids itself help, helps to lend to the integrity of the cell, which is going to help maintain cellular health.
So as you age, they, you're. Your cell wall tends to degrade. And so we wanna see like a nice turnover of replenishing those that the phospholipids. And so when you supplement with Tyl choline, you, we are actually seeing that turnover rate increased as well as the mitochondria functions being activated.
And so this was really cool and an MRS study where we, it was a functional MRI where we got to see one where it's activating in the brain, which was the a CC region and the frontal lobe, but also what it's doing with different metabolites. And so one of them was that it was increasing beta a TP, so a TP or energy source directly in the brain.
So we're getting a mental energy boost without it being a stimulant. So that's what I really love from like a [00:27:00] sports exercise stance, is being able to cont to. Not control, but like to increase mental energy to maybe help with Strand, any mental fatigue that you're having. I also have this, I have an idea in my head and I would love to test this one day.
And you can piggyback and we could talk about it, but when I look at athletes or even myself, I'm not, I used to be an athlete, now I'm older, but you get to a point of muscle failure where you just, your muscles are like, I am done. I have nothing left. But then there's a sneaky little voice in your head that's you've got one more you can do it.
So there's this like mental resilience, mental toughness aspect that actually helps you push past that, that point of failure in your muscles. So I'm like, which one is stronger? Which, can you have such awesome mental toughness that you can see huge performance benefits even to the point where there is failure.
So that is a [00:28:00] test. I would love to run that study with Cognizant and see what kind of effects we can get. 'cause I just don't know. But that's where my mind goes with it. When I see the data that we have. There's also genetic mapping that we've been doing. So we've been looking at differentiated genes that are being expressed, and we are seeing that there's not only in the brain, but there's various components throughout the body that are being tapped into that.
We have so much data that was actually brought up in our meeting this morning. I was like, what are we doing with all this data? There's, so I am not a geneticist. So we are really like, oh my God, there's over 700 genes that are being upregulated and downregulated. And then you have to learn the pathways and then to what effect is it a good thing and what effect is it a bad thing?
And so there's so much to unpack, but also really interesting stuff here with this ingredient. So we are, we're just scratching the surface of what we know and which is crazy. Over 30 years of research. There's hundreds of publications, but there's just so [00:29:00] much more to to discover with this ingredient.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. In your study, could you do something like, like a reps to failure somehow probably be machine based controlled. Like you could do a randomized double blind placebo control crossover, or one group gets, a higher dose of CDP colon. It could be acute or you could do loading. We'll talk about the dosing coming up and then see how many more reps you could get to.
Like failure. Meaning failure, you can't move the weight anymore. So it's more of a hard endpoint and see is there a difference? Because if there is, I think that's something, like some of the early creatine research has done. Mm-hmm. Trying to replicate some of those designs, because I think that also is very practical to people who lift.
Then you could say, Hey, based on this study, when you consume this dose, this timing, whatever. You got two more reps, three more reps, whatever it is. I think that also [00:30:00] translates to being able to tell a cool story to people are going to the gym because then they understand what that actually means too.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah. I agree. And I would also obviously you need objective data, but I love having subjective data too. Sure. So having some sort of questionnaire being like, do you actually felt, did you feel that you could do more? Or did you feel like you were defeated? And so I would definitely have that as a complimentary endpoint.
But I, I agree that's a good place to start, is to look at what, obviously what's already been done and replicate that as per the dose. We are finding like two 50 milligrams a day is. Not necessarily the minimum, but like from a recommendation stance from the data that I am seeing being produced in the clinical setting, I would say two 50.
But when you start to go up to 500, even a thousand milligrams, we're seeing differentiation in what is being tapped into in the body. So where mental energy comes in is that 500 to a thousand milligram, we're seeing much more activity. And so I [00:31:00] always recommend around 500 per day. I tend to take a thousand between the drinks and the protein.
And I have gummies. I take, I, I take it every day. So, I am learning that the higher the dose and even the duration. So that's why we were doing the acute study too. 'cause I wanna know what's happening with a single dose, like in a beverage. But then if you take it 28 days, three months, four months, whatever.
What changes. And so we are learning there, there is differentiation and so we're gonna keep studying, but I'm not sure for the mental fatigue, one should that, I'm not sure about the de the design yet, but still playing with that idea.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, that was one of my questions because I think my interpretation, reading some of the literature from talking to other people in the field, that I think historically it's probably been underdosed and maybe this was due to cost, maybe it's due to some of the earlier research.
And I found at least 500 is the sweet spot. I haven't gone up too much beyond that in a while. So that was [00:32:00] super interesting what you're saying about dosing.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: 500 is definitely a sweet spot. And I think unfortunately, when you are an ingredient manufacturer and you're in the supplement space, you have to design these studies that are gonna be consumer friendly and
Dr Mike T Nelson : yep,
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: there is a price associated to the dose, right?
So a lot of customers want the absolute lowest dose they can possibly have one for price purposes, but also for formulation fun to add other additional ingredients. They, space isn't unlimited, so we want to test what they want, but we're learning that you gotta go up. So, it's a hard balancing act of doing what your customers and your partners wanna see versus what the science is telling you.
And so we are finding ways around that. But 500, you nailed it. That seems to be the dose that is best per day, at least.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. With that as the. Be an acute dose. If I am gonna go to the gym and train, it's a [00:33:00] heavier day. Would I take 500 milligrams before or do I need to split that dosing up?
Or does it matter?
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah, that's another great question. We, the study that we did do was a single dose at 500 milligrams, but I do get people that ask me, can I split the dose? And honestly, I have no reason to say no. But also, I don't know,
Dr Mike T Nelson : right, yeah. Yeah.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Because that's not how we did it in the lab.
But there, I think there was one study where they did split the dose to two 50 and it was a reaction time study. So very possible to see similar effects. I just tend to try to replicate exactly what I did do in the lab, which is 500 single dose, but I don't see any reason to say no.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And then time course.
60 ish minutes before, if someone's using a pre-workout type thing, we know caffeine on an empty stomach is peak blood levels 30 to 60 minutes. Is it similar to that?
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: No, actually we have some pharmacokinetic data that shows and this is what helped [00:34:00] drive that POC design was. It starts to rise 60 minutes, but the peak, like the most elevation that we saw was around hour 4 0 4.
Dr Mike T Nelson : That's way longer than I thought.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah. In fact I believe it has a 56 hour half-life where it actually peaks at hour 21 dips down and then peaks again. It has the most bizarre profile.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Okay. So I don't feel so bad that I couldn't make heads or tails out of that then.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: No. I'm still learning too.
So yeah it's definitely behaving very differently than what we expected. So that is again, why we did that acute study. 'cause I was like, people are asking me like, when do I take this? If I'm using it as a pre-workout? And I'm like, we are seeing benefits at an hour, 60 minutes, but I'm seeing the greatest benefits between three and four hours.
So, maybe it's the first morning you wake up, so I know I wake up, I take my multi immediately. And then sometimes I take my cognizant and which does help me throughout the day. I notice I'm more productive, but [00:35:00] then I still get that 3:00 PM slump. I feel like everybody does. And then that's when I try to not do caffeine.
Sometimes I'll grab my cognizant gummies, and I really do see an effect, maybe not immediately, but like at the end of the day, I go back through my checklist and I'm like, damn, I was productive today. I got stuff done. So I think, I don't think that there's responders and non-responders like, like caffeine where you have that genetic component.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Mm-hmm. Where
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: you have like fast metabolizers and slow metabolizers. I haven't encountered that. But again, maybe it's very possible that there are non-responders to a specific dose. So that is something we may consider looking at, I think, in the future.
Dr Mike T Nelson : And what are the downsides? If you go too high, let's just say on a, on an acute dose.
So if someone says. Hey, I wanna try 500 or above. Are there certain things they should watch out for of oops. Yep. Going a little bit too high.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: So personally, I've done 2000 milligrams a day [00:36:00] in a couple hours, not on a single dose. Not experienced any side effects. When we look at the research, no adverse side effects have been reported even at a high dose at 1,002, 2000 milligrams being taken in a single dose.
I do know it is much higher. As a pharmaceutical drug over in Asia, and it's given in an iv so it's an even more potent dosing regimen. That, and again, no negative side effects being reported. However, I will say we do have a friend in the industry that's a formulator and a chemist, and he likes to test the limits, and I believe he, I don't know how much he took in a setting, but I remember him telling me that he experienced a very unique.
Choline situation where if you do take too much and it stimulates a lot of neurotransmitter activation in a setting. So whether it's cita choline paired with alpha GPC, paired with phosphatidyl seine, and then if you add maybe like a ketone, like [00:37:00] HMB ketones or something, it, it has this crazy effect in your brain where you have almost like a euphoric experience.
So I have not personally done that, but I have heard of someone playing around with that and they said it was a crazy experience, but I don't think it was bad. It, so I think we're good. The safety profile is pretty, pretty amazing with CIC choline.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Which is rare too. Obviously you can look at the therapeutic index or therapeutic window, whatever terms you're using, and it's rare to find ingredients that work really well, but have that pretty high large index, meaning that.
The amount that's efficacious versus the, historically it's the LD 50, yeah. 50% to kill a rat population or whatever. But it's rare to find ingredients that have that super high window because even things like aspirin and Tylenol, like you can take 20 times too much and have acute liver issues like real fast.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It doesn't mean they're bad. It just means that every drug and everything has a different [00:38:00] kind of spectrum of where it's at.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah. And that was one of the appeals that brought me over tequila.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Going, what is this magical ingredient that seems limitless, right? Like we've, we have to tap in at some point and find its limitations.
And that's also my role personally is like where does the benefits stop happening? And I haven't found it yet. I'm sure I will. I've only been at Kiowa for two years, but I'm sure at some point we'll find what it can't do. But at least from a safety stance, I feel extremely confident.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah, because I think, like you mentioned too, I dunno if it was Renshaw or who the researchers were, but a lot of the earlier work, and even in some pathologies, like they were using gram dosages, they were, it was pretty high dosages for quite some period of time. And I don't remember there being, at least in the studies reported any real downsides.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah, exactly. Other ingredients, like you said, you may see some detrimental effects on for sure, your kidneys. But when we look at toxicology studies, everything seems to be [00:39:00] good.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. How does this, you mentioned Alpha GPC, how does this compare to it? 'cause I feel like, at least in the sports nutrition field, and I've gotten some pushback on this too, and I like Alpha GPC, I think there is some beneficial data on it.
But when I've done consulting, I usually try to point out. Here's all the data on C choline. Here's the data on Alpha GPC, and to my opinion there's really no comparison in terms of the amount of data that's been generated.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: I've, that was one of the first things I did was doing a side by side comparison sheet and just coming at it from a scientific angle, right?
No, no bias, no agenda. And that's one of my favorite things about this role too, is yes, we have a sales team, but like I always emphasize that I am science and I'm transparent and I'm not here to sell, even though I am here to help assist sales. I will always be truthful in what the science is saying.
And so I did look into that and one of the things I was finding routinely is [00:40:00] Alpha GPC has great science. They have a lot of good areas that they're tapping into that maybe cita choline can't, but one thing I'm finding routinely in the market space is people aren't using the efficacious dose that's being used.
Correct. Also, a lot of the studies are done in iv, not in oral dosing, so,
Dr Mike T Nelson : yep.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: They're translating the science inaccurately. There's also a percent weightage that's being done that's not being calculated for. So an alpha GPC could be 80% in the study, but they're using 30%. In the product, and then it was a 600 milligram dose in the study.
But they're using three, 200 to 300 milligrams and Yeah,
Dr Mike T Nelson : because they just look at the ingredient amount and you don't, the bugger is, you don't know the percentage of that. And a lot of times it's not disclosed either. It's
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: not. And some of the customers that I've worked with, like ghosts are starting to actually put that on their label.
Dr Mike T Nelson : They're
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: getting better. Yes, they're getting better, they're being more transparent. But the problem is they're relying on a dose that's not [00:41:00] reflective of the studies, but yet they're using the claims. Yeah. So I have an issue with that from an ethical stance because you're misleading the consumer. And that is something we pride ourself on at Kia is that I make sure that it's completely reflective of what we've tested in the lab.
So that's where my discrepancy and issues come in with Alpha GPC is how it's being used, not how it's been tested. Right. 'cause the testing is good, the research is good. The other red flag that I have been seeing, and I think this. This is still up for debate is the TMAO metabolites that are being manufactured through supplementation with Alpha GPC and the liver.
And so I did read those case studies. I'd say the verdict is out. And I know I hear a lot of back and forth, but I do know that it's causing some regulatory issues going to like the eu. And so a lot of companies are coming to us saying, Hey, we currently have Alpha GPC in our product, but we can't get into Canada.
Yeah. Or wherever in Europe. So, but you canid a choline in, in some of the regions, not all. So. I would [00:42:00] say yes, I actually think there's some positive more acute benefits for Alpha GPC than the acidic choline, but that's also because we haven't tested it. And so that's,
Dr Mike T Nelson : yeah, I would argue that study hasn't really, at least my view, hasn't been done with CDP.
There's no direct head-to-head comparison that I've seen.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Right. So that is my job, is to look at the study side by side and see like where are we lacking according to what Alpha GPC has studied versus what we've studied and how can we measure up to see which one is a true standout and which one, are they complimentary?
Do you need one or the other, or can they just play nice in the sandbox together? I don't know, like I think they can. But I do see definite varying benefits between the two.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Very cool. And yeah, I know you got a couple other ingredients we'll touch on briefly here towards the end. You mentioned one about a glutathione product also.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Glutathione that is for me in the past year, that's become the new ingredient. I've always been in the neurocognitive space with supplements, even at my previous [00:43:00] job and how it translates to sports. So coming to an antioxidant, I was just like overwhelmed by the amount of mechanism of action that it has.
So, glutathione is considered the master antioxidant. It's a tripeptide, so it consists of glycine, cysteine and glutamate. But there's also, there's two existing forms within your body. Again, it's another endogenous substance that we naturally make. You have a reduced form, typically labeled as GSH.
If you're ever reading articles and GSH and you're like, what is that? It's the reduced form of glutathione. And then you have the oxidized form, which is GSSG. I don't know where that acronym came from. But what I have learned is that the ratio is a sensitive marker for cellular oxidative balance.
And so what I've learned is we have accumulation of free radicals that happen in our body every day, literally from breathing, eating, sun exposure, smoking, alcohol, aging. These, our natural glutathione levels, they drop as we age in both [00:44:00] males and females. And I think it starts around age 30 to 40, it starts to slightly decrease.
And then of course I ask my myself like. What does glutathione do? Why, other than being an antioxidant, like how do, how does this work in the body? And so glutathione being an antioxidant will donate extra electrons to those free radicals to help neutralize them and help with that cellular balance.
So you're actually fighting oxidative stress. So as you're increasing free radicals, you should also be increasing your antioxidants like glutathione, vitamin C, vitamin E, since there's a whole recycling system between those antioxidants that I learned. But there's a whole pathway, which is pretty fascinating too.
So it lends to immunity, it lends to respiratory health. There's also skin benefits. What else? The most interesting is sports. Mm-hmm. I didn't even realize that it had an area of mechanism where it works with nitric oxide metabolism. And so I was like, what? Like how does, I
Dr Mike T Nelson : think it [00:45:00] helps prolong it.
Wasn't that one of the theories? Yes. Yeah.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah, so what I was reading because originally I was like, nitric oxide, that's vasodilation, you're getting that from El Citraline and arginine and like how does glutathione have any effect on the nitric oxide production system whatsoever to lend to better blood flow and vasodilation?
And so what I found again is, the nitric oxide molecule, it's gonna drive that vasodilation in what we call muscle pump, but in reality it's like super unstable and it gets oxidized almost as fast as it's made. Whereas glutathione, it preserves oxid ox nitric oxides lifespan by converting it.
And then essentially it's that slow release of nno. And then what we do is, so you have that mechanism, but then when you actually pair it with a vasodilator like citraline. Which will increase that INO synthase. When you add glutathione, it protects and stabilizes it. So now you're creating a sustained vascular response.
And then hypothetically, you should get better [00:46:00] oxygen delivery and better nutrients and to the muscles, to the working muscles. And then over time you should see better performance in faster recovery too. So I thought that was very fascinating. And we actually have four studies with that combination of glutathione and el Citraline where they're looking at the first study looked at nitric oxide production, looking at nitrate.
That are being produced. The second study was looking at body composition using a DEXA scan with an eight week resistance training program, like what is happening with your muscle mass and your strength gains. The third study was flow mediated dilation. So they wanted to actually measure the blood flow through the vessels using a, your brachial artery doppler.
And then the fourth study was post menopause women, but there was no exercise intervention and they just wanted to look at FMD again, but also cardiovascular benefits. So like how is it helping blood pressure, how is it helping mean arterial pressure? And there's actually [00:47:00] cardiovascular benefits too, which I mean, makes sense when you think of vasodilation.
But when you put all four together, it's telling a really cool story for a sport.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Oh, that's cool. And there's some old research, like I did part of my PhD on FMD, some FMD data, looking at endothelial function related to cardiovascular health. Yeah. Because you can't really, it's hard to access the cardiac vessels and there's obviously issues doing stuff on 'em, but if it's a system-wide systemic thing, you can get access to the brachial and if you can see how that's responding, that is not a direct, but it's gives us some data about the status of your vessel health.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: It's not the best. It is. It is what it is. Right. It's like measuring nitric oxide. It's such a finicky molecule that just disintegrates. It's so hard to measure. And you can do salivary strips. They're not the best. Yeah. I'm still asking researchers around who are inventing different validated tools on how to measure nitric oxide.
There was one lady that was creating [00:48:00] some sort of headband. I don't know where that went. I don't know how validated it was, but it's one of those areas where you have to use what you have. It could be better, when it's the gold standard because there's nothing else available, that's what you gotta use.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And I think, shout out to Evan Picon and the guys at Knox. I think Adam Gza was one of the guys who just worked on this study that published a study looking at that as a non-invasive measure, I believe, of nitric oxide possibly too. So that might be a marker or consumer device people might want to check into if they're going down that route.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah, no, that's cool. I love science. I love research how people like band together and come up with new ways to measure things because they see there's a need and and being, then being able to use it in a research study is fun too.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. And I heard one of the criticisms of glutathione is that you can't consume it orally.
'cause it seems like in the past there's been all these. Different routes of trying to get it in and what's the story on that?
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: [00:49:00] Yeah. So we've been trying to combat that, that voice. We do have a study, we call it the Richie study. It's like our Landmark Hall of Fame study where we actually do see that oral absorption of glutathione is readily available in the bloodstream and is being stored throughout the body.
So it was stored in whole blood as well as red blood cells, and then even buccal cells. So, there was a, it was a three arm study and then the smallest dose was two 50 milligrams and the largest dose was a thousand milligrams. And of course, the higher the dose, the more stores we're seeing, right.
But it just, it lends to the credibility that. Just because you have a compound in an oral application doesn't mean that they're all the same. Right. So, and again, this is hypothetical, this is just my own opinion. We haven't tested it. I would love to, but when you take a synthetic compound versus a compound that's been manufactured through a fermentation process that has less actives attached to it I do believe it will lend to better bioavailability.
Although I can't support that. [00:50:00] 'Cause I don't have a side by side comparison. But I do think when we look at the synthetic form of glutathione being measured previously and studies and seeing that it was poorly available, and then you have our study where it's a, the same compound but also a little bit different, more pure, and then seeing that it is readily available, it's well maybe they aren't the same.
Right. So I do love being able to use that study. I do get people that say, well what about Joe Rogan and Gwyneth Paltrow that are saying that it has to be in an iv? I'm not saying that it can't. Yes. And I'm not saying that you can't use both. I'm saying the iv, from what we've seen, the half-life is within minutes.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Mm-hmm. So
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: It is readily absorbed and utilized. And maybe that's a great thing. Maybe that means that you really, truly needed it and your body just sucked it up and poof, it's gone so acutely. Yeah. If you can afford it. If you like needles,
Dr Mike T Nelson : I hate needles.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: I I'm a no needle kind of person.
Oh. I'm terrified to ever get Botox because I don't want a [00:51:00] needle coming at my face. Oof. Oh,
Dr Mike T Nelson : ugh. So
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: I just use topical creams. But so the idea is if you are okay with that, you're okay with the price tag. You want those acute, immediate benefits and you use you use a compounding pharmacy that is regulated and a highly skilled, trained person because there is a high risk of infection.
Go for it. Reap, reap those benefits. But if you want those long-term stores that you're gonna see benefits. For a while that's affordable and you can take in a capsule, this is probably the best option for you. So you can do both.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Yeah. Awesome. And what was the name of that? Was it Setria? Is that the name?
Correct?
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Yeah, Setria is Setria Glutathione. So yeah it's the different form of glutathione and that it's just branded and fermented.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Awesome. That was a good overview. Thank you so much
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: fun. And now we just gotta get Joey to do a debate at ISSN and maybe we can be a part of it and bring up some fun [00:52:00] topics to fight a little.
Yeah,
Dr Mike T Nelson : I think that's good. Well, I'll, I'll definitely, we'll have to email 'em for sure. We'll, we'll stick DC on there and a bunch of other people. Yes,
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: exactly. Exactly.
Dr Mike T Nelson : Cool. Awesome. Thank you so much.
Katie Emerson, MS, RD,: Thanks.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for listening to the podcast. A huge thanks to Katie for coming on the podcast and talking about all things related to cyl Choline or CDP choline. Really, really appreciate it. In addition to many other things to help your performance and cognition, uh, make sure to check out all the great stuff, um, she's got going on.
We'll put all of her links and everything below. And if you wanted to hear the flex four, so top four things you should know about, is it a choline? You can get that for free by hopping on to my Daily Insider newsletter. Go to mike t nelson.com and go newsletter, or we'll put a direct link down below.
[00:53:00] And when you hop onto that, you will get that Flex four, and you'll also get all the other Flex Fours that have never been published anywhere else. So if you're looking for bite-sized tips and tricks and action items. Check that out. Uh, it's completely free. So thank you so much for listening to the podcast.
As always, really, really appreciate it. Got tons of great episodes coming up here again every week. I think you'll enjoy them. And if you have someone who would enjoy this podcast, make sure to check them. Uh, they can check it out by, uh, sending it to 'em or recommending it. Whatever you can do to help us with the old algorithms.
Give us the thumbs up the likes. I think you can, I heard you can submit reviews on Spotify now and other places. Apple, everything you do uh, helps us go a long ways to getting better distribution of the podcast, which so far has been all organic and thanks to you. So thank you so much [00:54:00] for listening.
Greatly appreciate it and stay tuned for another episode next week. See ya.
Speaker 3: Did you see that? Yes. The frog is certainly taking a beating on this show. Yeah. It's hard to feel sorry for him. We take a beating every show.
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