In this episode of the Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with my good friend Dr. Dan Pardi for a deep dive into all things health, longevity, and cognitive performance. We get into the science of stem cells and aging, the real benefits (and limits) of popular supplements, and how nootropics like Ritalin and Modafinil actually work—or don’t—in the real world. We also talk about how to integrate training and movement into insanely busy lives, the psychology of health behavior, and why being flexible in your approach (not just in your hamstrings) is key to long-term success. This episode is brought to you by Quaia Life, where Dan’s doing some fascinating work on cutting-edge supplements designed to optimize health and performance. They’re offering listeners 15% off their products, which you can grab through the link in the show notes. If you want a mix of actionable tips, science-backed insights, and a peek behind the curtain of how top researchers think about performance and aging, you’ll definitely want to tune in.
In this episode of the Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with my good friend Dr. Dan Pardi for a deep dive into all things health, longevity, and cognitive performance. We get into the science of stem cells and aging, the real benefits (and limits) of popular supplements, and how nootropics like Ritalin and Modafinil actually work—or don’t—in the real world.
We also talk about how to integrate training and movement into insanely busy lives, the psychology of health behavior, and why being flexible in your approach (not just in your hamstrings) is key to long-term success.
This episode is brought to you by Quaia Life, where Dan’s doing some fascinating work on cutting-edge supplements designed to optimize health and performance. They’re offering listeners 15% off their products, which you can grab through the link in the show notes.
If you want a mix of actionable tips, science-backed insights, and a peek behind the curtain of how top researchers think about performance and aging, you’ll definitely want to tune in.
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mike T. Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things to help add muscle, improve performance, and improve body composition, all done in a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today in the podcast, we have my good buddy, Dr. Dan Pardy, and we're talking about a wide variety of things here that.
Are not necessarily directly related to the top three things, but are more in the, the health and longevity space. But, uh, obviously these things do play a role in performance, albeit more on the cognitive side. And as I think about it, the longer I'm able for myself and for clients to stay at a higher level.
I think that is gonna be a benefit. So at some [00:01:00] point you're probably doing a lot of the same things to increase performance, but the reality is you're probably stopping a lot or reducing that rate of decline that is increasing as we age because entropy sucks and is after everybody on this podcast.
We talk about a wide range of topics. Like I said, I've had the privilege of knowing Dr. Dans for probably over a decade now, I think. And I really love his frameworks on everything. Uh, probably because they're very similar to mine in terms of thinking in complete systems and how everything is working together, uh, dynamically.
Um, because that is, uh, physiology and so we talked about, uh, even science, communication, cognitive performance and [00:02:00] supplements. Uh, the role of nicotine on productivity and creativity, uh, Ritalin and its effects. Even some other nootropics and other drugs that are. Uh, initially were used for narcolepsy, so Dan spent a fair amount of time in the past working for a pharmaceutical company, exploring those different things, and then we got into, uh, stem cells and their role in aging.
Uh, what exactly are stem cells? Can you change them by using supplements and lifestyle? Even things like lytics, which we'll explain in this podcast, sometimes they're referred to these sort of, these zombie cells. And, uh, this podcast is sponsored by Quaia Life. And when they reached out to me and said if I wanted to Dan as a guest on the podcast, immediately I said yes.
Um, I'd actually talked to Dan in the past about being a guest [00:03:00] on the podcast and. Between our busy schedules, we're just not, uh, able to make it happen. And with his new role over at Quality of Life, uh, one of the things he's doing is more podcasts. So we were able to line that up, which is amazing and I'm super stoked, uh, about that.
And I really trust Dan with, uh, science. He's always been extremely, uh, thorough in everything that he's done. And I was really excited that he is over a quality of life now and helping with, uh, this particular product. So if you do want to check out some of their products, uh, which I have used since they started the company, uh, we talked about this in the podcast also, all the way back to the very first nootropic meeting.
The founders, uh, just been following everything they've been doing. Been a big fan of theirs for many years. I go to quality of life.com/dr. Mike 15, that'll save you an [00:04:00] additional 15% off of any, uh, any quality of products, uh, which I have used almost all of them now, and I do really like them. It is an affiliate link, so I do make a few bucks, uh, off of that.
But like I said, I trust Dan with the science. I've been following their stuff, uh, since the beginning. And the feedback I've gotten, uh, from clients and from people on the newsletter and the podcast, uh, overall has been, uh, very positive. Uh, so check that out there. And if you want more information from me, be sure to hop onto the newsletter.
Go to mike t nelson.com. You'll see a newsletter tab. We'll put a link directly in the podcast here. And if you want daily updates on everything from longevity to increase in muscle and performance, doing it all in a flexible framework. That's free to enroll in the Insider podcast, I should say the Insider Newsletter.
Actually, I go to that link down below, and without further ado, here's [00:05:00] my wide ranging conversation with my good buddy, Dr. Dan Pardi.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Dan party. How's it going, my friend? Hey, it's great to be here, Mike. Thank you for having me. Yeah, no problem. Awesome to, to see you again. I, we, I think we first officially met at one of the, was it Ancestral Health Symposium and ended up drinking some tequila till three in the morning, and you gave me a great lecture about the drug effects of GHB, which was awesome.
Dr Dan Pardi: Sounds like me.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah,
Dr Dan Pardi: that was a fun, I do remember, that was fun. That was a great time. We hung out a lot, that whole time, that whole event. And it was quite memorable.
Dr Mike T Nelson: When paradoxically talking about sleep, which was hilarious at like three in the morning,
Dr Dan Pardi: Mike, if you only knew the amount of times I've given a talk on sleep in a sleep deprived state, you would [00:06:00] not listen the word I have to say.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. That's like, I often tell people like, if you're looking at health and performance and you wanna do a PhD in that area, doing the process of doing the PhD is probably the most unhealthy thing you'll ever do, which is this weird paradox,
Dr Dan Pardi: yeah, it's so true. Yeah.
And so now you're over. Yeah.
It actually, I was, when I was doing my PhD, I was starting human OS at the same time. And so I was working on a startup and I was working on my PhD and it actually stimulated some pretty good ideas that I then used to try to help others, but. Including something I have created called Intune Training, which stands for Integrative and Opportunistic Training.
Also this idea that you're in tune with your body, and so what does it, what does that look like? It's another way that we can involve physical activity and movement into our day. So when I was working, it was really hard. When I was [00:07:00] doing all that work, I felt that I had little time to go break off, do a workout, and come back, and that was causing me stress.
'cause I've always been physically active. I needed, it's part of my mental health routine. And so for a large stretch of time I was doing intune, which is essentially, it's like a hundred workouts that I've created that help with the concept. But imagine one workout each of those workouts is equivalent in work volume to, let's say the seven minute workout.
So it, they're not long. They're not, it's not a ton of work. One might be, 50 pushups, 50 sit-ups, 50 body weight squats. That's it. The idea is that just by the end of the day, finish your reps. And so sometimes that would mean you do 'em all at once. Other times it means you do 10 here, 10 there. And that can feel insignificant for a lot of people that are used to going and getting one bolus of work [00:08:00] where you're really sweating and your heart rate's up.
And that's, by the way, that's great and we want that. But at the end of the week, the reality was I would either have very little or no working, no exercise in my week. And if you aggregate the. Opposite of that, which is doing Intune every day. I might be doing 300 pushups, 400 sit-ups, all these body weight squats, other types of activities too, like jump rope, for one minute at a time without a jump rope.
But just doing the motion. I would do that throughout my day and that, it's interesting how, necessity is the mother of all invention and so the time stress that I was experiencing led to something that I think has helped a lot of people, which is cool.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, that's great. I would you say the hardest part to get people to adopt that is the mentality you mentioned that they don't think it's gonna add up to anything, so they don't even paradoxically start.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah, so there's two parts to the mentality. There's that, there's a conception about what is. [00:09:00] Has merit, what's valuable. And then there's the behavior of actually remembering it and being mindful in your day so that you do take those opportunities to move when you have them. And it's funny because it, so you have to have a conversation repeatedly with somebody or like, yeah, I, it's it's really easy for a mind to think either or.
It's either that or that. I'm like, no, do both. Like if you can get workouts into your week, go great, go do it. But my movement pattern changed and I mapped it. So imagine having, let's say, three workouts in your week, and so you've got like a bolus of activity on Tuesday and then Thursday and then Saturday, and then.
If you represent those as like circle size for how much work is done in that period, it, then what I mapped was like every day had these little circles that were in and throughout that I'd have one bolus when I could fit it in. And so what I noticed is [00:10:00] that movement was populating many more days and more throughout the day.
And I felt great during that time. It was actually more beneficial than what you would imagine, what you might expect.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. That's great. Like one of the little axioms I've used the clients, even myself, is okay if, just ask yourself if the, is this gonna be better? Like, if you only did 10 pushups today versus none, is 10 pushups better than none?
Like oh's great. Yeah, ten's better. Okay. So you just agreed that's better. So you agree with me and we know the direction, even if you only did five, five is better than none. Like, oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, I get it. Because I think the, maybe the science community or just in general, we've done a disservice by preaching optimal, and I'm probably just as guilty of this as everybody else, that people are looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and, magical unicorn farts and all this stuff that's gonna transform their training.
And it's [00:11:00] just the, a lot of times it's just the boring stuff done with violent consistency day in and day out. It may not be that entertaining. It's, sometimes just showing up. Like, especially doing my PhD and even, sometimes here when it's been busy, I'm lucky I have a full freaking gym in my garage.
I can open my door and be at a deadlift bar in literally like 10 seconds. Yeah. And even then, the amount of sessions I've got of just 20 minutes of some pullups, a pressed down and a deadlift is. That's way better than nothing. Yeah. But it's sometimes hard just to get yourself to show up because in the back of your head, I'm still like, oh, man, on Mondays, you know I got to live for like an hour and a half was so great and today I literally got 20 minutes total time.
But it's like, no, this is the only time you have to do it. If you don't do it now, you're not gonna get it done. So just show up, walk into the room, just start with wherever you can. It's just that inertia to get going is the limiter. A lot of times.
Dr Dan Pardi: Two, two tricks work for me. One of them was [00:12:00] not letting myself.
Do very much the first time I moved in the day.
Dr Mike T Nelson: So
Dr Dan Pardi: like let's say you do 10 pushups one morning and the next day you're like, I'm gonna do 15, I'm gonna do 20. And next thing it's like 50. And then the barrier to do it starts to build. And so I won't let myself do more than a few because it's something like breaking the seal, like get started with it and then you're much more likely to continue doing it once you've done your first one versus like, ah, waiting for when you feel enough to like break a record or do a lot.
That was one. The other thing that I think probably had the biggest impact. At the time, I was of course in my PhD studying how the effects of sleep loss and its, IM impact on a variety of cognitive factors and then how that corresponded with eating decisions. But that required that I had to study all those different areas separately and then try to think about how it was all [00:13:00] working dynamically together.
But what I realized, and also like studying hunter gatherer movement patterns at the time, is that these little exercise snacks became a way to perform better. It wasn't a distraction. It's like if I want to actually perform well on some sort of cognitive task I have in front of me writing, doing a podcast, whatever it is, movement is going to enable better performance versus take away from it.
Once I made that connection, then exer the little. Snack of exercise was a performance enhance, not a time distraction or a, a time stealer. That was probably the biggest mental shift for me. 'cause you can, you'll feel that it's like when you do a workout and you feel really clear and lucid after that.
That is the basically the condition or the state that I tried to engineer throughout my day and I've done it ever since.
Dr Mike T Nelson: [00:14:00] Yeah, those tips are awesome. I love that. One of the reasons I, well one of the many reasons I wanted to start my own business years ago, my two top goals were not set an alarm on Monday and then be able to exercise and lift between one and two in the afternoon.
'cause I had done everything from early mornings to late at night. And when I was working in med tech company. It'd be a good day if I got done by six 30. So you get to the gym at seven, even if you just do some stuff there, you get home. It's already 8 39. I just have a hard time winding down after that.
Even if I don't use caffeine, don't get amped up or whatever. And so that was like the greatest thing to, because I also could block all my heavy cognitive stuff in the morning. Later I would add like aerobic training, cold plunge in the morning. Nice. Have like, two, three hour block of cognitive deep work stuff three days a week, go lift in the afternoon and then, do emails and do you know, rando stuff in the afternoon after that?
'cause I felt like that lifting, I was probably a little bit more fatigued than what I wanted. Yeah. But my goal was. I needed to get a set amount [00:15:00] of output done during the day, and I was gonna lift, four days a week. So it worked out so much better. And just even having that luxury now is just like, oh, this is so great.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. That's, that, that is some nice lifestyle design. And I know what you mean. Like, I love sauna, but hot yoga, great sauna or a hard workout. I can feel depleted mentally for a while. Like it's hard. Like, I wouldn't, I would choose not to do those activities if I had something like a podcast that demanded that I'd be in a better state.
And I think it probably has a lot to do with hydration, but I definitely recognized that. And so I'm also careful with what I do in the day depending on what I have left.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And you mean not everyone optimizes for performance in the health and fitness industry? I feel like that's the. The thing that is just like the assumption of like everybody is always [00:16:00] doing the optimal thing and those are the only goals.
In reality, there's, like you said, multiple different goals, different things people want to achieve, and exercise and movement is a huge thing to enhance even cognitive performance, which I think is underrated.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. To me, optimization is a calibration process for a particular in individual in the very specific nature of their life.
I like that. Yeah, like you need to figure out how to calibrate these opportunities. Like if you were, if you're a lawyer and you're wearing a three piece suit, the male female equivalent of that in your office, you can't be doing Intune training even though it's like little burst. Or you could do a little bit of it, but you ha is your environment permissive of this idea?
Maybe it's best if you like, just go to lunch and you do a full workout and get ready again and go back to work. But everybody has to then think, all right, what are my options? And then what's gonna work in my life in [00:17:00] tune for a person in such a condition might be like, all right, I'm just gonna do like half of that workout in the morning and the other half right when I get home.
And it's not too much on each side, but that's when I'm gonna be able to do it not during my workday. So yeah, we all have to, he health is a skill. It's not just information, it's not just what you know, but it, do you know how to implement it in the di in a changing life, right? Not everything's always the same too.
You move the job changes, you have family seasons. So it's being, it is the ability to constantly apply knowledge in a way that does have the net effect of bolstering health but also is one that doesn't cause con constant stress where you now are, the idea of health is a health and impairing stimuli in your life.
'cause it's causing constant worry that I'm not doing enough. And that's what we all have to [00:18:00] manage.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. In to, i that I got from you or my buddy Simon who runs Ilea was the worried well. Like, a lot of times, and you probably see this too, like some of the consults and stuff I do are.
People who, we go through everything. They're, performance wise and everything, they're pretty darn good. But a couple blood markers were outta range or the VO two is maybe a little lower than what they wanted it, you measure enough stuff, something's gonna be a little bit off and everyone, it's just gonna happen.
But then they get hyper fixated on that one thing and you're like, but you, everything else is pretty good. And, it's hard to, steer them back on, on track with, that's why I get a little worried about people who just measure 400 different things. 'cause you're gonna find a couple of those things are gonna be just completely batshit off the radar.
And that's just the way it is.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah. We can't apply, we, you always have to measure again. Yep. There's variability in these things and I agree in that, and some people who do have an anxious [00:19:00] demeanor to them, it might not even be that problematic to have a conversation that might make you as the coach a little bit worried.
That's just how they are and the anxious nature is something that probably is propitious in their life. 'cause it helps with focus. Sure. Like I know some people that teeter on, like they're anxious, but it actually serves them because they're great learners. They're hyper on top of it. It is it making you not sleep at night?
Is it making you rechange everything in your diet in response to, are you basically over reactive to the minutiae versus, very fixated on it? Maybe more than average, but you're still maintaining a good practice and it's not causing you to not get sleep.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I think awareness is huge there. I think of a former client who, I won't say his name, but.
Very high performer, very successful in business health wise really good. But he knows himself enough to know he's on the neurotic, anxious end, but he has a [00:20:00] super high level of awareness about it. So it was actually, that's great fun conversations to have. 'cause we could explore different things and he knew he was being neurotic about it, but yet he still wanted to go down, certain areas and stuff, which again was totally fine.
And to your point, like that sort of outlook had served him really well throughout his whole life too. Yeah. So it wasn't like it was, people might think, oh my God, that's a whole negative, like, he probably wouldn't have gotten to where he was without some of those types of things too.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah.
And it's funny enough 'cause or funny that we can sometimes as health coaches look at those people and be like, oh, there's problem here. And it's not. It's just they're a little bit different. And I, like you said, self-awareness is really good. I have, a client for my company, vedi, who is exactly that way.
Sometimes I have to talk 'em off the ledge.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. On things
Dr Dan Pardi: here and there. But for the most part, he's doing a lot of things right. And he looks the part, he's very fit for his age. Great energy, very successful, all of it. And so [00:21:00] I don't see it as problem. I see it as like something that needs a little awareness and a little bit of management.
But I wouldn't describe it as a problem, although it could be.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. And that's even related to health. The bigger topic about do we, do, we have to force everyone into air quotes normal. When you look at very successful, artists, for example, or people doing arts or different things.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: A lot of times the things we would rate them on, they're not really that good, but yet they create some of the craziest, most amazing things you've ever seen in your life at the same time, yeah. So it's like maybe we should just let them do their thing,
Dr Dan Pardi: yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I, a couple of professional athletes that I know Teeter with obsessive compulsive disorder Oh yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure you've seen that. Then there it is absolutely contributed to their success because they will obsess on getting it right and do a [00:22:00] thousand reps without being asked, and yet it's something that they need to manage so it doesn't teeter over into a mental health issue where it's having a negative consequence in their life and on their performance too.
So yeah, we see high performers tend to be skewed in interesting ways that make them like bodybuilders. They can deal with the tediousness of bodybuilding. Yeah. It's hours and hours a day at all the time where you're just lifting, you're lifting weights and it's pretty damn boring and eating boring food and they can do it.
Right. And that you look at the physical manifestation of a bodybuilder and what I tend to think is that person has a specific. Mentality like their, or not just mentality, but their mental phenotype is like one who can tolerate the drudgery of a professional bodybuilding career.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. My, [00:23:00] my coach for grip strength, Adam Glass, he is, he said this publicly, so I'm not revealing anything negative about him, but I've asked him on podcasts and interviews and I said, well, I said, Adam, like he's probably one of the lightest competitors that's picked up the inch dumbbell and done farmer's walks with him and just crazy stuff.
And I asked him, I said, so the key is just doing that same boring, repetitive thing over and finding ways to regress and progress and exercise. And he is like. Yep. 'cause my dumb autistic ass can go out in the gym every day for fucking like nine months in a row and do the same goddamn thing every day.
Yeah. And he is like, at some point you can't, if you wanna do a certain thing, you can't avoid doing the thing. Like you can try to get cute and do all these other things around it. There's a time and a place to do some things that have transfer, but like if you want to get better at a deadlift, then it, you got a deadlift.
Like there's no way around that. So there's certain just requirements you have to do.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:00] It's a the psychology of health is a really fun, interesting, consequential topic and results that we see.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, definitely. And speaking of topics, you're working over at Quality of Health, and I know you've got a cool new product you just sent me.
I just, I'm on, I'll be on day three tomorrow, so.
Dr Dan Pardi: Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and I'm super excited that you're over there. Obviously. We've known each other for many years and Yeah. I've used a lot of the quality of products since they first came out. Actually, I remember the original nootropic they had like the two different bottles with the two different capsules and meeting the founders, and I was all excited because they were some of the first people I had talked to, at least in the supplement industry at that time.
This was many years ago, about system thinking and about the interaction of different ingredients and trying to look at, the whole thing, not just micromanage every. Individual ingredient. I was like, oh, wow. That's so cool.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. The [00:25:00] founders the Achtenberg. So James and Daniel are really interesting people.
Just very
Dr Mike T Nelson: interesting to talk to Period.
Dr Dan Pardi: Period. Yeah. On
Dr Mike T Nelson: anything. Yeah, on anything.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. So Daniel Schmuck Berger is absolutely a polymath. Yes I've been so impressed speaking with him. I'll g I'll give you a little anecdote 'cause I've known them since the beginning.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, awesome.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah, I met them, serendipitously there was a transhumanist conference, which I did not attend, but there was an after party really close to my house.
A friend of mine hosted a party there for that, the people that were attending that conference. And, Wim Hof was there and Huberman was there as a bunch of really cool people that I got interact with, at least briefly. And while Daniel was not there, two of the members that had started working there, the core team, the early team were there. And we started to chat and we felt that there was [00:26:00] some really interesting synergies for what they were doing and what I was doing with HumanOS. And they've had a much bigger vision than just supplements since the beginning. And they've also had a much more comprehensive perspective on supplements since the very beginning.
And it was appealing. So I was on their podcast at the time, the company was called Neurohacker Collective. And they started the Collective Insights podcast and I did one of their first, one of the first five shows. I did two episodes talking about sleep and sleep physiology and all that, and it was great.
Daniel's an excellent host, he understands it well, can ask good questions. Then I had him on my podcast, human West Radio, and we talked about his perspective on supplements. And so from there we knew each other well. We stayed in contact. We even thought about merging what we were doing and we decided just to stay in contact and just because it was gonna be a little bit challenging at that time.
Fast forward to last [00:27:00] December, and James Berger, who's the CEO of the company now reached out and he was in Austin where I live, and he said, Hey, let's go grab coffee. So we did and we ended up. Chatting for a while and he said, I think it would actually make a lot of sense to bring, if you wanted to come on and talk, we'd love for you to be talking about the therapeutic areas that we're working in.
'cause we've moved into health span. So you're right. They started with a nootropic. And for any, I'm sure everybody's familiar with what that is, but it's a cognitive enhancing supplement that's also good for the brain. That's the distinction between something that might be cognitive enhancing and that it can affect some parameter of cognition in a way that you would want to see.
Improving memory, thinking speed executive functions, something like that. But it, not all cognitive enhancers ha are also good for the brain. So when I started to take. Their two step [00:28:00] formula. I had, I was very impressed by the results. So not only did I notice a very clear elevation in my thinking quality, we'll say over the course of the day, there was no come down or crash.
There was no like with caffeine where, you feel amped up, but almost a little anxious and then it drops off. There was none of that. I didn't feel at all like exhausted in the evening. I felt still bright. I could sleep well. And then you didn't take it on the weekend. So five days on, two days off.
And on the weekends, not only did I not feel like desaturated or like my personality wasn't there or slow minded, it was the opposite. I felt like week by week my weekends were even my thinking quality was elevated even on the days I wasn't taking it. And I was like, if this isn't the most deft signal of a true nootropic, I don't know what is in terms of like one's experience.
Dr Mike T Nelson: But I
Dr Dan Pardi: had a very positive, relationship or opinion, both with the company from early [00:29:00] on. And when I learned over time that they were working more in health span, which is an area that I'm very interested in, it seemed to make a lot of sense to and I've also really wanted to work on products.
'cause I think because supplement products are a very interesting way to encapsulate science and put them into the most easy form for a person to benefit from. And we can think of supplements overall as like a crutch, but you can also think of 'em as a catalyst, right? The crutch perspective is like, ah, you're just trying to absolve yourself from your sins of lifestyle.
The catalyst is something that I believe in more, in that once you start to make some actions towards a goal, like, I wanna be healthy or sleep better, move better, whatever it is, think better. You're more likely to do things that align, that are consistent with the other behaviors you're already taking.
And so in some ways, starting with a supplement might be the easiest first step, which then could [00:30:00] lead to additional beneficial behaviors in that direction. So there's a lot of cool things I think about supplements when done well.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah I had a very similar experience with it too. I met him originally and tried the formula and I was like, eh, I don't know.
I was gonna, apprehensive and similar to what you found, I, to my shock, I wasn't drinking two cups of coffee in the morning. I was working at a coworking place for a while, and I found it was, I even still use them to this day for if I have like a lot of heavy writing tasks where, yeah, I have to be concentrated, but not, I can't be too amped up.
Right. I just don't. Think clearly. Yeah. Like sometimes if I just need to power through something to get a rough draft done, maybe. But I find like I'm not as creative at that point. And it was like this nice blend of, I felt like I could concentrate. I felt like I the words came a little bit easier, but I still felt like I was creative without that [00:31:00] all going out the window is woo as that sounds.
Dr Dan Pardi: No I mean that, I get that and I appreciate what you're saying. It's, it makes a lot of sense to me. So there's something called the Yurt Dodson Curve, which it talks about arousal. And so when you are under aroused then you are going to suffer from slower thinking speed. So arousal is basically a state of being awake or being reactive to stimuli.
So it underlies attention, motivation, memory, and performance. It's, you have to be awake in order to start to direct attention in a particular way. And think of it like an energy dial. So you know, from deep sleep to full alertness that is gonna determine your arousal state. And it's regulated in the brainstem by the reticular formation.
An area called the locus Aus, which uses nor norepinephrine, it's locus. Sarus means blue. So it's a little blue spot in the reticular [00:32:00] formation. And then. It also involves something acetylcholine, which emanates from the plo pontine nucleus. I know this, these pathways really well because I worked in studying as narcolepsy for years.
Yeah. And they have dysregulation of these, what we call, what I call the wake network. And then you have serotonin from the ra nuclei. And then all of that is then going to be the arousal is gonna go up into the cortex through the thalamus. And so those, that's going back to the Yorks Dodson curve.
If you're under aroused, then it's really difficult to perform a lot of the tasks that come after that. It's like the basis of cognition. It's going to again, fuel alertness, which is this state of being vigilant. And all ATA is where that term alertness comes from and it means on the watch.
Right. So it's like, I didn't know that. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the ability to sustain attention and to stay ready to [00:33:00] respond. Right? So it builds on arousal, but it adds to active monitoring of your environment. Right? It's like, look in this field and let me know. When you see any people with red hats run by, it's like you have to be scanning for something that's not there.
And a tired mind might miss things in the visual perceptual field that are there. And an active mind is gonna spot it immediately. Okay. And then all of those things, so arousal, alertness are also going to underlie information processing. So how the brain takes in input, interprets it, stores it, makes decisions, and then produces an output.
That is then all of the things involved in having a goal, seeing the red hat, having it come into your brain making then a decision about what you should do. And that's a part of also like thinking speed, like how quickly does that information processing happen? So anyway, I'm going down this like little rabbit hole of cognition.
No, that's
Dr Mike T Nelson: great.
Dr Dan Pardi: Okay, cool. Yeah. And and so when we're thinking about. We're [00:34:00] applying all of these, whether it's, your memory, there's different types of memory. Short-term memory holds information for just a few seconds. Working memory is like an active short-term memory that holds and manipulates information.
So it's like doing math in your head or remembering a phone number long enough to like actually dial it. It's following a couple multi-step direction and it's depends on activity in the frontal cortex and also in your parietal lobes. And then, so yeah, so those are, and then your long-term memory is like a totally different thing.
Even though it, we talk about it as memory and it splits into these different groups, a declarative and explicit and then non declarative or implicit. And that's like storing facts versus the like procedural skill. Like learning soccer is not a series of facts. It's learning how to move and react or
Dr Mike T Nelson: motor type skill.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: Riding a bike, right? Once you learn how to ride a bike, you never forget. That's a procedural skill that you do have to learn that is encoded as a memory, a [00:35:00] long-term memory into the brain. And even we talk about these things distinctly, but all of them are, they all work with each other, right?
So, like, as I said in the beginning, arousal is going, was what is going to enable all of these other cognitive functions to occur. And then, we have like executive functions, and that's these higher level brain functions. So like, think of it, as oftentimes described as like the brain, CEO, so like one action, one executive function.
There's multiple, there's like eight of them, right? Is like bill inhibitory control. This is. This ability to have self-control, resisting impulses, delaying gratification, or regulating your emotions. Kids that have a DHD or adults that have a DHD have a difficult time with inhibitory control. And so they, the hyperactivity part of that is they are not a tired mind will overreact to stimuli in the perceptual field, right?
[00:36:00] You're trying to listen to a teacher and then you hear birds chirping and you're like, what's that? Right? You're not filtering out, you're now attending to too many things because of either, structural changes that we describe ultimately a in the behavior of attention deficit or even a tired mind who's going to manifest a lot of the same issues.
Working memory, which I mentioned is also considered something that is we can define under executive functioning. The point is, going back, I wanted to describe some of those because. We're applying all of that throughout the day, every single day when we're thinking, deciding, focusing, tuning things out, focusing our attention, sustaining attention, having cognitive flexibility, another executive function to make shifts, to change what you're doing and light of new information and adopt like new rules of what you should be doing, right?
We're not automatons. We can actually learn [00:37:00] in the moment and then make adjustments. We can replan and organize around incoming information. It's a lot, right? We're doing a ton just to get through our day, and I think a lot of people can relate to the feeling of having a bad brain day, and so a true cognitive enhancing formula that doesn't over arouse you.
So going back to the Yur Dodson curve, think of it as like this U-shaped curve, where in the center you have a peak level of arousal. That's where optimal performance is going to occur. And if you're under aroused, you're feeling really sleepy and groggy that you're not gonna perform at all of these subsequent functions very well.
The same is true. However, if you're over aroused, now all of a sudden you start to go down the backside of that curve and you are it, the over arousal is going to interfere. And so you can actually see, for example, people that are very tired on something called the psychomotor vigilance test, which I did in [00:38:00] research, is a very boring test where you have to push a button whenever you start to see these numbers count up on a screen and they, otherwise the screen is blank.
And then only when you start to see those numbers start to like milliseconds start to climb, you have to push a button. And what ends up happening when you are tired but wired through like lots of caffeine, is you start to have lots of errors of commission. You'll start to push the button when there's no signal there.
Right? And so your performance also is degraded in unique ways, but it still sucks, right? It's like pulling the trigger way too.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, you get almost like over anxious, so to speak. Like you're like, oh, that was it. Nope. That wasn't it. Yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. All of that can lead to a day of poor performance.
And what I noticed is that I never felt overstimulated with quality of mind, but rather I felt an elevation in my ability to perform at my goals, which is all [00:39:00] of these things working in harmony to navigate your day and your tasks. And so I was super, it's not an easy task to create something that does that, but the reason I like to go into it is because that was the hallmark product of the company.
It speaks to how it was designed. 'cause we were trying to address from a systems perspective, how do we raise the quality of thinking of a person, not just one thing. You'll often hear people that might be on Ritalin as like, yeah, I could focus, but I was not creative. I like. It was at the cost of other functions that made a person feel like they weren't even themselves.
And so that had, they had a very ambitious goal of creating a product that made you more you and not just like overfitting around one goal and one that made you feel good continuously over time. And so it wasn't like, God, I'm getting this [00:40:00] great performance, but I'm gonna pay for it later.
It was the best of both worlds. And even though we're gonna talk about stem cells today, that same methodology that was used in how do we support a system towards achieving its goals in a way that is intelligent and supportive versus just like bludgeoning it with one chemical.
We've applied that to all the products, and that's one that I started working at the company maybe three months ago, even though I've known 'em for a long time, as I mentioned. And it's the approach that they take that. Makes me excited about working here specifically.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And that's, I think by using a systems approach, you can probably try to maximize the pro and limit the cons, right?
Because any system you push too far in one direction is gonna have a cost associated with it. There is no like physiologic free lunch. Yeah. But if you can maximize the upside and minimize the downside, you're gonna be in a much better place. [00:41:00] Like, yeah I've never done like like Ritalin or anything like that, but I'm almost nervous to try it because I have the illusion that I like stimulants and I would probably like it too much.
But I have a fear that the quality of the work I would do would probably be crap. Although at that moment I might be under the impression I'm being. Hyper-focused and really getting stuff done, which I like that feeling. But in reality, it may not be the best move, I don't think. I don't know. That's just my bias.
So haven't tried it. I found higher dose nicotine kind of does that. Like I feel like I'm productive, but I can't use it for anything creative. Like tiny bit is okay, but you, I find the, it's very tricky with the threshold and you cross that certain threshold and it's like, now I'm not having a creative thought from just save my life.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah. And in a world of ai, the creativity that [00:42:00] a human brain can bring to the tasks at hand is gonna, I think, become even more valuable. Yes. Right. The humanness, the associations in our associative network that are like, Hey, what about this idea that's not been thought of? So yeah. And to go back to what you were saying about, ri ritalin and concentration that is a real, that's been demonstrated where people do think that they are performing better and they're not actually on a, on, at least the way that these tests have been conducted.
Sure. So sometimes we make big statements about, the results of a study and it has a lot to do with how it was run and conducted and, maybe there is a, they're there for if it was te if that idea was tested in a different way. But a lot of people report that who are, have taken Ritalin.
I think where those drugs really excel is [00:43:00] helping people do boring tasks.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, for sure. I can imagine,
Dr Dan Pardi: right? Because for some people like having a huge series of boring tasks that you can't generate. Motivation to do stands in the way of doing the more interesting stuff that you would like to do.
And yet you've got 30 things that are constantly interfering with your, they're intru, they're like intrusive thoughts. They're like constantly coming into your brain like, I gotta do this. And it can lead to a consequence where a person at the end of the day sat in front of their computer and felt like they got literally nothing done because they just had a hard time controlling that.
Where people who I think benefit most from these types of stimulants experience that a lot like daily and have a hard time controlling it. And then all of a sudden they're able to get more of the boring stuff done that they [00:44:00] have to do so that they can now address their more important work. So, I've heard.
I've heard friends say that they've not noticed a, like a twofold improvements in productivity. It's like a 200 fold where you know, they really suffer from the condition and can spend an entire week trying with no success and then they're able to now, kind of steamroll through the boring stuff.
But anyway, that's a cool conversation And
Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah, a side note on that, and we'll talk about stem cells 'cause I know someone's gonna ask in the comments, but thoughts on like Modafinil or those kind of branches of drugs, I know there's different forms of it now and stuff, but you hear everything from Oh, it's the most amazing thing I've ever used to, like, I don't know, it didn't do anything for me.
And obviously it's been, prescription for sleep awakeness and I think, was it one of the original narcoleptic drugs? Is that correct?
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. [00:45:00] Yeah. So it came out of France. It was originally came out of France, and it was a prodrug. The first version was not Modafinil I'm forgetting the name of the original, but it was close to it.
It was like Modafinil was in the name.
And that it was used in I could talk more about Modafinil, but it's used two to 600, 200 to 600 milligrams originally for supporting wakefulness in narcolepsy. So narcolepsy is a really interesting condition because sometimes we can understand how a system works when a part of it breaks.
Yeah. Narcoleptics are missing a protein in the brain called hypocretin also dis also called orexin. You'll see it. Listed as that as well. 'cause it was discovered and published on by two different labs, [00:46:00] six weeks apart. That all the time as well. It's crazy. Yeah. So now in forever, you know you have your Orexin camp and your Hypocretin camp, but they have narcoleptics have a hard time consolidating their sleep into a regular sleep window.
And consolidating their wakefulness into a 16 hour period. As a result, narcoleptics can get all the sleep that you and I get, but they sleep more like a cat. They're gonna be up for a few hours, then have to sleep. They're gonna be up for a few hours, then they have to sleep, they have to wear off the sleep pressure that the few hours of wakefulness Ah yeah.
Yeah. Are generating right. Sleep pressure is usually counteracted by this coordination of all of these weight network. That I, that neuro neurotransmitters that I was mentioning earlier, right? Serotonin from the dorsal from the Rae nuclei, norepinephrine from the locus release. All of those, right?
Those are now being controlled by Hypocretin, the symphony conductor that [00:47:00] says, okay, be on, play your instruments and play them at this volume. And so you now have this situation where those, the wake pressure is mounting while the Wake network counteracting that pressure is building two, because Narcoleptics don't have that coordinated response.
That's why it's like you built up sleep pressure. You gotta sleep, build up sleep, you gotta sleep. Modafinil was is one of the therapies that is utilized to support wakefulness so that narcoleptics are getting kind of art artificially stimulated with these drugs and it can help 'em stay awake longer and it does a decent job.
The. Company Cephalon did a lot of work to try to say that it wasn't a stimulant.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Interesting.
Dr Dan Pardi: So they published a lot of abstracts and papers talking about all the different mechanisms through which it might be working. Is it working [00:48:00] on the tuber mammillary nucleus through histo his sturgic neurons?
Is it actually working directly on remaining hypocretin cells? And it's great that was investigated, but there was a strategy there. And that strategy was to avoid the now negative perception around stimulants because Adderall and Ritalin and all those were now being prescribed more than ever before, early in the two thousands.
And there already was some pushback on that. Even though narcoleptics is a perfectly, there's no doubt that's a right population to work with, but
Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: They're like some of the strongest stimulants, narcoleptics can be prescribed 120 milligrams of dextro amphetamine a day, and it's still not enough Whoa.
To solve their wakefulness problems. Damn. Yeah. So Modafinil seemed like a, actually like a better [00:49:00] solution. But my friend Jonathan Wiser did a study that to me was like the cl, the. Close the door on what's really going on. If you block the dopamine transporter, the drug has almost no effect.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, fascinating.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah. So, and that's like in dopamine transporter, knockout mice. Now, knockout mice develop differently, so you always have to be wary of that. Sure. But his line of research showed pretty clearly that you need the dopamine transporter to be working. And what it does is it modafinil blocks that transporter keeping dopamine present in the synapse longer.
And dopamine is very important in generating wakefulness and suppressing sleep drive. So those are. Those are some things that Modafinil will do and it, but it's got a very long half-life, so some people cannot take it because it's a 16 hour half-life. The, patent extension molecule are modafinil, which came later, which enabled more years [00:50:00] of monopoly profits from Cephalon.
Had a slightly longer half-life. It was basically the same drug. But that ends up being a problem for some, because even if you wake up at six 30 in the morning and you take it,
Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah,
Dr Dan Pardi: You're gonna want to go to bed at 11 o'clock. And for some people that might metabolize it slowly or whatnot they're like still aroused and alerted and now it's actually encroaching into their sleep and causing sleep deprivation.
So, is it, I. Individual mileage will vary. It's a very interesting drug. It's really cool. There's some research that shows some neuroprotective effects. But yeah that's like a full conversation on it. You need to be, you need to learn what your reaction is to it. And for some, it's not gonna be a useful tool.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, no, that's super interesting because it's, the little bit that I've seen with it is it seems to have more of the benefits and less of the downsides, but in my head I'm always [00:51:00] thinking like, there's still downsides to it, right? Because it, if you go online, everyone's like, oh, this is the most amazing thing.
There's no side effects. I'm like, okay, so there, there's something going on. You just don't know what it is. And again, that's not to say it's good or bad or people should use it, not use it, whatever. It's just, let's just try to be educated about what's actually going on.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think it's a really interesting drug that, no, it's
Dr Mike T Nelson: fascinating from the mechanisms.
Dr Dan Pardi: The mechanisms, it while the dopamine transporter story is probably driving the majority of effects, it doesn't mean that some of the other effects might not be contributing to the overall experience. But yeah I'm a fan of it for narcoleptics, which is fewer people care about that.
But it was far from a complete solution. Interestingly enough, GHB or sodium Oxybate had a better impact on wakefulness the next day after taking it at [00:52:00] night for better sleep. Yeah, so it comes back to a key idea that stimulants do not prevent the need for sleep. So if you're not getting enough sleep, which remember what I said earlier, narcoleptics can get enough sleep, but because of how the world works and having to try to be up, they end up being sleep deprived because they're trying to live in modern society.
And so getting deeper sleep. Ends up helping them feel more alert during the day.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: Very cool. And then a combination of both is quite useful for some. Very cool.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well good to have all sorts of side conversations, which is awesome. And back to like the systems theory, how did you guys apply that to looking at, stem cells and especially translating that into a supplement?
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah, so overall the company's been interested in working in the space of health span as there was a paper in cell [00:53:00] 2013 talking about the hallmarks of aging. There's a great saying, no model is perfect, but some are useful that. Hallmarks of aging paper has been highly consequential for the field.
What it did is look at what are some reliable ober factors that we can observe when something ages that happen fairly reliably. And that led to nine hallmarks of aging being presented at that time. The paper has been pub cited 17,000 times since then. It's one of the most,
Dr Mike T Nelson: oh, that's wild.
Dr Dan Pardi: Famous papers from Cell Ever.
And it was from Guido Chrome. It was five authors. The two that get the most attribution are Guido Kromer and Lopez Otten is the name of the second one. So a Spanish team and then Guido's from France. And it was really impressive work because they were trying [00:54:00] to like. Say, okay what can we see here?
And it's rare that you would see papers, like there's lots of papers that are looking into individual mechanisms, but it added a lot of clarity to the field. And that then had turned into a battle cry, or if you will, for like the ERO science field to say, okay, these are things that we can try to start working on.
Some of the hallmarks include genomic instability. So you're gonna see more mutations, you're gonna see less ability for the transcriptional processes to occur efficiently, more damage that occurs in that process. You're going to see telomere shortening telomeres are the end caps that are at the end of our DNA.
So every time a cell is replicates, then it actually, you'll see the telomere shorten.
Dr Mike T Nelson: I always think of the analogy, a little plastic part on the end of your shoelace.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah. That's a, a good way to think of it and imagine [00:55:00] that every time you need to like tie your shoes, that shortens a little bit.
And what those telomeres are doing is they're actually preventing your DNA from fraying or with copying errors. And so what, this is all. Befo before Leonard Hayflick, who published in the 9 19 61 his work talking about what's now considered or what's called the Hayflick limit. It was thought that cells would last in, they were immortal in a culture as long as they had the right conditions.
If you gave 'em enough food and you didn't damage them, then they could live forever. And what he showed is that was not true. So in working with human fibroblasts, a cell type, he found that they would, they could replicate 40, 60 times and then they would undergo replica replicative. Senescence. And so senescence cells is another hallmark of aging, and that is this liminal state between alive and dead, where they don't [00:56:00] fully undergo apoptosis and die.
In fact, they resist apoptosis. That's one of their characteristics, but they're now. Sending out into their surrounding all sorts of inflammatory and tissue degradating enzymes and cytokines. And that's actually, they have a function senescent cells. The function is then to tell the immune system, well, a couple things.
One of the functions is actually prevent the cells from becoming cancerous. Oh,
Dr Mike T Nelson: I wondered about that.
Dr Dan Pardi: The other. Very cool. Yeah. The other one is in wound healing, so they help wounds close. Oh. And so you don't, so they, they're playing a physiological role and then with their sas it's called the senescence associated secretory phenotype.
It's a beacon that tells the immune system, Hey, come clear me out. Ah, where to go. Exactly. So an like, go get this guy bad. Get him out. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And so the reason it's a hallmark of [00:57:00] aging is because your burden of senescent cells increases with age because your immune system is not as good at clearing them out.
And so that is now raising your level of inflammation in the body. And so even though it's less than 1% of cells that are becoming senescent, it's a very small amount, they're having a disproportionate impact on the cellular milieu inside of the internal milieu inside of our bodies. And. With a rising level of inflammation.
We now have problems with cellular communication. So inflammation of course, has a negative connotation, but it actually is playing a very important signaling role. And an elevation in chronic inflammation is basically the system trying to get that message across, but having to speak louder to do so. And as a result it itself can start to drive tissue dysfunction and tissue communication dysfunction.
So you can now see how like all of these things are actually, [00:58:00] even though we talk about them separately, they're all working to conspire against us. And another factor is stem cell exhaustion. And so is it that we stop making stem cells? Yeah, there's a slight decline when we get older. The majority, what's happening is that stem cells cannot do their job because the inflammatory environment is prohibiting them from hearing their signals to regenerate tissue.
Very cool. That's the big, that's what, that's like the big factor there. And so imagine that you're in a room with an older person who's hard of hearing and you're talking and giving them a message and they're just not hearing it. So they're there, but they can't do what they, what you want them to do, which is to regenerate tissue.
And that's they're basically like a major part of the body's repair system. And there's. [00:59:00] There's a couple of, if you're, if your audience, anybody listening is unfamiliar, I mean you might've heard about them, but what are, what do they do? Well, they have a couple of unique capabilities they can duplicate themselves and so one version creates a clone one, one of the offspring, the daughter cells is a clone, which then can also duplicate, have daughter cells and duplicate.
The other one is then destined for a process of differentiation where it can become an any type of cell type in the body and. It is the way that we regenerate tissue. So when we're younger, we have a net zero impact between the damage that we're generating and the replacement of those tissues. And as we get older, for a variety of reasons, the balance gets off.
So we're causing we're there's more damage and there's less repair. And that leads to over decades, the degradation process we see in the human form that we can reliably see in a person [01:00:00] who's 70 versus someone who's 20, you can see that a person is aged. And so stem cells are a major part of that.
And therefore the science on stem cells is that the field of neuroscience is really interested in figuring out how we can replace damaged tissue and really thwart the effects of aging. And we're not. At that place where we can be 110 year old person and feel like we're 20, but there's some excitement that we might be able to get there one day.
And that not being complete science fiction.
Dr Mike T Nelson: No that's super interesting. Yeah. And related to the supplement, so was some of the effects people might feel, would it be like enhanced I guess recovery, for lack of a better word. And by recovery, if you're doing exercise, you can get back to baseline faster energy.
Like what, obviously stem cells play such a myriad of roles. It's probably very difficult to say, oh, it's just this thing or that thing. [01:01:00] Because they're involved in just like every function in the body.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Exact some of the stuff we would be able to feel and some of it that we would really care about, we would never be able to feel.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: So that. Is a challenge in the field. Right. It's like always easier if we're saying, we're gonna take you from where you are, we're gonna boost you up 20%.
It's definitely a challenge when we're saying we're going to prevent the rate of decline.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. It's like, oh, okay, that sounds great, but I can't feel that if I take a whole bunch of pre-workout and I get a better workout I could feel that, or I could feel the Betaine giving me the tingles.
Right. Yeah. Things that are put in supplements just so people can feel something.
Dr Dan Pardi: It's true. That does exist and I understand the reasons why.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, for sure.
Dr Dan Pardi: But yeah. I'll tell you a little bit about like the stem psych, the stem cell cycle, and then Yes, please do. How we formulated our product because it matters.
So, [01:02:00] stem cells live in niches around the body, and these niches in their niche, they're mostly quiescent or quiet. So think of 'em as like these little kids in a house, they're sleeping and we wanna let them rest. But. With our repair process, we want to then get them out of their niche, wake them up, have them in this case, replicate.
So they're gonna make more numbers. And then they need to mo so mobilize out of their niche and they need to migrate to the source of where the tissue repair needs to occur. And all of that is this very interesting balance of chemicals. So on, for example, stem cells, they have a CXCR R four receptor, and there is something called the cxc.
R four sdf, one axis, SDF one is gonna be released by damaged tissues. And it's like a beacon, right? So a funny visualization is imagine like a, that, that little cx CR [01:03:00] four receptors, like a nose that is on the stem cells that's sniffing out, it can smell the cookies that are being made on the shelf of like the damaged tissue area.
And you now it's like, okay, I can smell it. Now I know where to go. 'cause they don't wander aimlessly. And then once it gets close to where it needs to go, it needs to be able to slow down, get out of circulation, and into the place where it needs to sit, right? It's gotta get off at the right off ramp. So there's a bunch, there are molecules like L selectin integrins, that then help adhere at the right area.
And then once that stem cell moves into the tissue, it has to undergo a process of differentiation. And what that looks like is that you have these ancient. Membrane receptors or, and path signaling pathways. There's seven of 10 of 'em. Life builds on top of itself so it doesn't reinvent the wheel every time there's some sort of [01:04:00] evolution.
So this goes all the way back to when we were multicellular organisms six to 800 million years ago. Some of them even go back 1.2 billion years like mTOR. And those then those signals in the surrounding environment are gonna initiate the signaling cascade, which will elicit specific transcription factors within the cell.
And now all of your cells have all your DNA, but you don't wanna be making all your proteins all the time. You want 'em to make specific proteins to create specific tissue. And so those transcription factors will both activate the transcription of the right proteins and also suppress. The activation or the transcription of the wrong proteins.
And in that process it the, it's the cell's fate is determined and it's this reinforcing loop. So once it starts to go down this path where you're moving from this undifferentiated stem cell into its final [01:05:00] form, there are steps along the way. And in each step you have epigenetics that are locking in the cell fate to make sure that this, you're not developing a neuron in your muscle or a fat cell in your muscle.
You're developing a muscle cell.
Dr Mike T Nelson: The right structures in the right places.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah. And that's how that process work. And it's amazing to think about. And so, the medical stem cell therapies is extracting them from your body. And I'll give you one other analogy. So not every stem cell can make every tissue.
So you have what are called potencies, and a potency is gonna determine what it can become. If you have a pluripotent or totipotent stem cell, that can become anything. So like an embryonic stem cell can become anything in the body. We mostly work with multipotent stem cells, like from the bone marrow, hematopoietic stem cells or mesenchymal stem cells outta fat tissue.
And then we can extract those and they can [01:06:00] only become certain things in the body. Right? So your hematopoietic stem cells go down these different myeloid, or lymphoid lineages. So they can either become blood cells that are oxygen carrying, or they can become immune cells like BA B cells, T cells.
But they, the analogy that I have is like, imagine you're a college freshman. When you haven't taken any classes yet, you could become anything. You're a pluripotent stem cell. Once you've made it to like your junior year and you've taken a bunch of science classes and you know you want to go into medicine, you can become any kind of doctor, but you're now on a path that has, doesn't mean you can now just be like, all right, I'm gonna be, go be a lawyer.
Yeah, of course you could, but just play with, work with me on this analogy. You'd have to start over, essentially. So once you start making it down that path, you can only become certain things. And that's why certain stem cells can, you'd have to use the right stem cells in the body, harvest them from the right tissue for [01:07:00] regeneration of a particular area.
And the orthopedic usage is where it's generated A lot of attention are. Chondrocytes and synovial cytes. Those are area, those are areas that align our joints. They're subject to senescence at a high degree. So we end up then not replacing. We have a lot of damage, a lot of inflammation, and we're not now, because of the inflammation, we're not regenerating tissue.
And then that can cause stiff achy achiness. So a person who's a little bit older might wake up and their back is a little stiff and their feet are stiff and they, it takes a while for the body to warm up and that gets worse over time. And so what we care about is, with our product is we want support the health of that entire process.
So there's 15 different ingredients that are working on activation. Proliferation, mobilization, migration, differentiation, and [01:08:00] then protection. 'cause then you want to be able to protect the cells. And a lot of regeneration and renewal occurs at night, as and it's the internal milieu that is created by slow wave sleep generated growth hormone and melatonin.
That is then creating a low oxidative stress environment at night. You have a dominance of parasympathetic tones, which enables the immune cells that are involved in the stem cell process to operate at their peak form. And so I take the stem cell product in the evening with dinner because that is where a lot of renewal is taking place naturally.
And so that's that just like we're trying to augment the natural process Right. Of when that's occurring.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, that's cool. And that was one of the questions I had. It's four times per month, like four days in a row. And then in terms of best practice, does it matter if you're fasting with food and like you mentioned timing potentially evening might be better?
[01:09:00] Like what are the recommendations in that area?
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah, I wanna be clear that my recommendation to take it at night is not a official company position because we've not tested that. It makes sense to me. That's when I do it. Yeah. Now I think with exercise it's a great time to do steady state activity for those couple of days because we're trying to facilitate blood flow but not create a lot of extra damage.
We're actually in the repair process. The other important point is, as you mentioned, it's four days a month and then you don't take it until the next month. There are products out there that are trying to constantly stimulate stem cells. That actually is a path to stem cell exhaustion. Stem cells need to stay in their niche in that quiet state, that quiescent state that is where you want them until it's needed.
So overly stimulating them is a faster way to age.
Dr Mike T Nelson: You end up with more [01:10:00] I guess this is a colloquial term, but like exhaustion of the stem cells. It's basically like somebody yelling fire all the time and there's not really anything going on. It's like you just wore everybody out and caused all this alarm for like no big reason and now you're gonna be worse off because of it.
Dr Dan Pardi: Exactly. Yeah. It's a good, it's a good analogy. Yeah. And I'm most excited about actually sequencing this with our Seno Litic product because the, that was my
Dr Mike T Nelson: other question. Yeah. So explain that product and talk a little bit about that too, which I have used that one in the past.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. So the way that you would sequence these is you do your, so lytic is two days a month.
And a lytic is something that is going to, we talked about seno senescent cells earlier, that they resist natural cell death mechanisms called apoptosis. They resist that, that's part of their defining characteristics. So they permanently exit the cell cycle. They're not replicating, they're, but they are resisting death and they're admitting those [01:11:00] inflammatory factors.
Then because of our immune system, and, things like thymic evolution, just the overall decrease in the effectiveness of our immune system, those cell, those signals that the senescent cells are releasing is they're not being cleared. So it's raising the inflammatory burden. And the, so with this, the lytic product is a host of different flavonoid compounds, some some other natural products that are targeting different cell death pathways because the resistance of cell death is now upregulated in those cells, which makes them, they're, you can target that without damaging normal cells.
And when using multiple different pathways, this is a term that is used elsewhere. You can create synthetic lethality. Any one of those compounds itself might not be enough to really cause that much damage. But when you're using multiple different pathways attacking, [01:12:00] diff attacking the problem with from different angles, it's like knocking out a couple legs of the chair, you're gonna fall over.
Right? And so the idea is that you would take your lytic product two days a month. I have my calendar the first Saturday and Sunday, and then you wait. Right? And so the night before, low protein meal, morning of low protein. 'cause we don't want to be fueling mTOR, that's gonna be a cell survival pathway. So low protein, lower calories.
High intensity training, do a 15 minute high intensity session both days, get 'em out there. So weaken the cells as much as you can. Help the supplement do its best job. And then, because you'd imagine if when those cells die in lice, the infl, the inflammatory level in the body's gonna rise a little bit for a day or two.
And so you wanna let that clear out. And then, so what I do is then Saturday, Sunday, lytic, wait a couple of days, then Wednesday through Saturday I take stem cell in the [01:13:00] evening. And so you're, what you're trying to do is engineer the right state for the product to have a maximal impact. So I'm eating normally.
The other thing I'll say too is I take our QUAIA NAD product, which is a fascinating. Subject that we could talk about some time, probably, maybe another time. 'cause it's a lot to discuss. Yeah. But that also would help with cell survival. So you wouldn't want to take that on the days that you're taking lytic, but you would wanna take that on the days you're taking
Dr Mike T Nelson: things,
Dr Dan Pardi: pushing the
Dr Mike T Nelson: wrong things.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They're you're promoting contradictory effects.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, it's like driving your car with your foot on the brake and the gas. Yeah,
Dr Dan Pardi: exactly. It's like you're trying to kill these cells, but like you're giving them water and food and like a shield.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Right.
Dr Dan Pardi: But then because you're regenerating and driving that, then you know, you don't want, you don't wanna be creating too much damage. So then, doing
Dr Mike T Nelson: hill
Dr Dan Pardi: walking zone [01:14:00] two, I save a lot of zone two, eat, well, fuel that regeneration. Our chief product formulator Dr.
Greg Kelly, really bright guy. Very thoughtful on how he formulas. Yeah, I love stuff.
Dr Mike T Nelson: I listen to a bunch of his interviews. Really cool stuff.
Dr Dan Pardi: He's really good. So he actually doubles the doses of NAD when he's taking stem cell. Because he is like, we need to, we want to have more energy for that intensive repair process.
And so the idea is that you've basically sequenced this protocol of lowering inflammation by clearing up the senescent cells, which creates a better environment for regeneration to occur, which is now also fueled by a dwindling energy source in a way for NAD is not a perfect analogy, but think of it that way.
And that is our, that's a really sophisticated protocol for how to go about, thwarting the ill effects of, homeo stenosis or a decline in the ability to maintain homeostasis as we get [01:15:00] older. Does it, is it a complete solution? Absolutely. No. Can you change your trajectory slightly? We don't really know, but I think that's what we're after.
That's what we're going for. And we're wanting to do more research on this protocol this year. And I'll say this too, I'm very proud of the company because we do clinical trials on all of our products, which is more than what most people can say.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Almost nobody does that. Like, there's not nobody, but there's very few companies that will spend the money on actual research.
And I, I won't say the researcher's name who told me this, but he is like in the supplement industry. It's the double-edged sword. Like should everybody do research? Yes. Should we be better off if everybody did research? Yes. But he's like, if you're a company and you're gonna spend thousands to tens, to hundreds of thousands of dollars, depending on the trial size, what you're trying to do to show that your product works, you do run the risk that it may show no effect or may not work.
[01:16:00] And now you've literally done a study from a marketing standpoint that's actually worse off than where you were before. Versus a lot of companies do the see, no evil here. No evil. Like, I'm just gonna believe that this thing is gonna work. We're gonna save our money and we're just gonna only just put it into marketing and cross our fingers and, hope for the best.
So I, I actually have a lot of respect for companies that are willing to. Do their homework, do the research, like do the actual trials because they actually do want to know what's going on. Like, like they do want to make better products in the end, even if that's a little bit more expensive catuit path to get there.
Dr Dan Pardi: We're in a we're in a place now where we, the company's large enough. We, it's, that would be really hard if you're a brand new company. Oh, for sure. And I get trying the resources.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: It's still really risky. But I'll tell you something that I am quite proud of. We recently went through, an almost a year long [01:17:00] process of working on a product that, what we did, clinical trial on it, and it, we had statistically significant results easily could have published on that.
We decided to go back to the drawing board 'cause we didn't think that it was as clinically meaningful as we wanted. And so we're like, you know what? That doesn't fit our brand. Like, we're not trying to manipulate people. We're trying to do things that really help and we, when we do that, I think we do better as a company by being authentic around putting out products that really help and then people, will benefit from them, want to continue to take them, tell their friends about 'em.
So there's a business objective there for sure. But it is aligned with the goal of really helping people and not trying to just manipulate people, which happens.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is great because I think that's how the supplement industry gets a bad rap from [01:18:00] yes, there are low level players who are not flying by the rules and doing disingenuous things.
A hundred percent. But it's the catch 22 of doing. Research because at the end of the day it's research like you, if you knew exactly what you're gonna find, then it's an easy slam dunk. But the point of research is to try to figure out things that you don't know or don't completely understand.
That's the whole point of doing it. So kudos for doing all that stuff.
Dr Dan Pardi: That's right. That's right. You don't you are unblinded at some point to see what the real effects were. And and that's that's how we advance knowledge beyond instinct. And so we're doing that. So like I, I'll talk about some of the constraints 'cause I think there's a lot of confusion here, but oftentimes supplements are compared to pharmaceuticals and it's like, oh, there's just nowhere near the amount of, research that a, a drug has and it never will.
Right. It never will [01:19:00] because drug companies can spend a billion dollars to develop a compound that they can then protect and get monopoly profits on.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: You can patent it for
Dr Mike T Nelson: 70 years. I know they're trying to extend it. So you can make an argument that you're gonna get a return on your investment.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. That's that business. And while we would love to have a lot of knowledge on the real effects of all of, supplements, we don't have that. So how, what's a practical approach to do Well and so we typically start with a survey. A survey is a very low, you'll call it a low quality ability to generate an under, knowledge you a low confidence, right?
Actually. So like a poor quality study will make a person think, oh, this was conducted poorly. And unfortunately I think it's a misnomer. What we're really talking about is low confidence, like the results from this that we get [01:20:00] in a study that is like, let's say a survey or a single blind trial that's with 10 people, a pilot study, we're not totally confident that those effects are gonna be real when administered in a larger population.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I always say that you're just looking to see, did this move the needle? Like we're not looking for, hard slam dunk statistics. I'm just like, Hey. Is there, like something going on?
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. And then so, we start with surveys because we think that's important. Like, what do people say?
Then we move into a single blind study. We do that next. Then we've, with NAD we've done multiple double blind placebo controlled studies. And so that's our approach is to continue to generate information on even the products that are out in the marketplace, because we wanna understand, and we think of our products like a SaaS product in a way.
Like we have version, so Qualia, the original cognitive enhancer that we talked about earlier, that product has gone through multiple iterations. So the first thing that they [01:21:00] were like, okay, this is a really cool product, but it's very expensive with all the things, and it's also hard for a lot of people to take, it's like for the Uber geeks in the pla in the space, you'd have three pills to take in the morning.
You would have to then wait and take six horse pills later. And so we wanted to make something that was more commercially friendly. So that led to quality of mind, which was the, it went from quaia the product to then quality of Mind, the first cognitive enhancing product, or the next cognitive enhancing product.
And we had tepid response to that product, like in terms of reports of how people felt. So then we under, then we said, all right, let's, how do we make it better? So then we did qual quality of Mind 2.0, much closer to the original formula in terms of my response to it. But we're doing that. Every product that you see that's out there, we have another version of how do we build on top of what we've already done.
And I, I just can't think of a better model for how to do it. But it also does come down [01:22:00] to what is your supplement taking archetype? Like, are you somebody who is, I only want to take things that have the most evidence behind them. Like I'll take it if I have to.
To the pioneers who are, I heard about this came out yesterday.
I want to take it, yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: And that's a spectrum. And we all fall somewhere along that spectrum. And where you fall is okay. So I never try to convince people, you should do this. I talk about the science, I talk about why I do it. I'm a little bit more adventurous with my supplement taking.
I probably skew more on the pioneer, but I'm not like, not entirely. I think some people are crazy. Well, there's a lot of
Dr Mike T Nelson: crazy people out there.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. But I also think that we are, constructing natural compounds, which of course, with the nature fallacy, like, oh, if it's natural, it's good. But I do think that there's a different level of evidence that we should require of natural [01:23:00] compounds versus synthetics never been exposed to the human body before.
They should go through many different studies to show that it's efficacious along with being, or sorry, safe, along with being efficacious.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: When you're concentrating a natural food product and in a powder that you're delivering, that it has sure it can cause damage. Right. There's, it's not like it's perf, it's a space that doesn't need safety understanding of the safety, but it just a, it's a different situation in my mind.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Cool. That's awesome. And last question as we wrap up. So for this product, you were talking about the schedule, just doing some light exercise, eating good nutritious food. If you had an unlimited budget and other things you would add, is there anything else you would add around those four days?
Like, I'm thinking, would you do red light, sauna, cold therapy? If you were to create like the bee's knees for the, even though we cropped all over [01:24:00] opt optimal, like other things that you would add in there knowing that Yeah, it's probably not gonna be the main effect, but some people may have access to 'em and they're like, eh, I have access to it.
I wanna give it a whirl. I wanna do the farthest end spectrum thing. Like what would that kind of look like?
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah. We've talked about some of that and I think that some of this would, will. Be subject to ongoing discussion about what other ways can we manipulate the environment so that it is more conducive for the immediate goal.
Yep. Right? Clearing senescent cells, the high intensity training, the low protein, like how do we weaken those cells even more so that the supplement can come in there and do a better job. Theoretical, right? We didn't test all that, so you have to just use your knowledge to say, all right, was what might you do?
And then similarly with the stem cells, so taking it in the evening, steady state exercise versus, [01:25:00] causing a lot of damage. 'cause we're already trying to regenerate and heal and, the additional of NAD as a. By the way I really do not, I'm not a fan of IV NAD someone has yet to explain the value of why you are injecting.
We published a freaking
Dr Mike T Nelson: study on it. Like I didn't even point to a single study. And again, I haven't looked for six months, but last time I looked I was like, rp.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. There, last time I looked there were no trials currently on clinical trials.gov. There are no legitimate scientists that are like, we need to look into this.
Yeah. It's complicating and creating a much more expensive, worse toolkit or, or like solution.
But the idea of augmenting NAD through precursors and enzyme manipulation that are helping with the conversion of precursors into effective NAD, that to me doesn't make sense. Like, again, the [01:26:00] hype around these things is gonna be.
Bigger what it comes down to after the hype cycle is should you do it? Yeah. Is it something you wanna do? Is it worth the time investment when there's a million options out there? And I've landed on, yeah. For all of these, I'm doing all of 'em. And so I think, what's next for the company is to like, look at ways that we could compliment this with other ways to target other hallmarks of aging.
Exploring protocols that would, enhance the effects of this very forward thinking health span protocol. And then test it. So we are currently exploring ways that we could put these three different products in this protocol together, and then look at pace of aging and, aging the biological age measurement to see, okay, how does, what do we see when, there's certain things, like with se senescence, it's hard to measure.
You have to do biopsies. There are, there's [01:27:00] no perfect marker. So a lot of them have some constraints around how to measure, but I think by looking at those global measurements like aging pace and biological age, over time, we might learn interesting things about whether or not this is a, as, a cutting edge protocol.
But we think it is. So yeah, so new products that complement this, those are always being considered and then, protocols to maximize efficacy. But yeah, all the red light stuff, sauna, cryo, I think, cryo in particular during anything to lower the inflammatory burden during stem cell would, I would favor.
Dr Mike T Nelson: So even stuff like you mentioned, becoming more parasympathetic downregulation, I'm testing the shift wave chair, which is using pulse pressure waves to do that. And I've seen some pretty big ability to downregulate, which has been fun to play around with. So breath work, meditation, [01:28:00] obviously, things like that too, that are technology free also, of course,
Dr Dan Pardi: I love that.
You could also look at like hydrogen water as pretty interesting. So yeah, it's
Dr Mike T Nelson: on my list. I gotta poke more through the research on that. There's a whole bunch of it and I'm in the, still slowly in the process of weeding my way through it.
Dr Dan Pardi: May maybe like you, when I first wrote a it, I was like, okay, this is absolutely, yeah, I was still
Dr Mike T Nelson: skeptical, but now I've moved from very skeptical to like, I think there might be something there.
I don't know what it is, but I need to do more work in that area.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. There is a lot more research than I realized at first call. There is a lot of
Dr Mike T Nelson: research. Yeah, there's
Dr Dan Pardi: a lot of research. And so what hydrogen water does is it selectively reduces the most damaging reactive oxygen species, if you will.
So Ross signaling reactive oxygen species has a function in the body. And so earlier ideas of trying to quench that with high [01:29:00] dose antioxidants was a bad idea. Okay. There was a higher incidence of cancer and people that were taking high dose vitamin E for a long time, not a good idea. However, there are these highly reactive species like hydroxyl radicals or perro per Roxy, nitrates or superoxide.
All of these things are where hydrogen water works. It neutralizes the highly reactive ones while keeping normal raw signaling occurring, which you do want. So it's really interesting and I think taking that in addition to stem cell during that time makes a lot of sense. But yeah like cryo and I'll add on cryo and hydrogen water to that phase.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Yeah. Well, thank, yeah, thank you so much for being here. And it's super cool that you're over there. I followed your stuff for quite a while and [01:30:00] for all the listeners. I trust Dan with the science. I was telling him that I've looked at a few of the studies the product was based on, but to be perfectly honest, I did not read all the studies.
I'm not an expert on this functions in the body, much less other than the couple hours of lecture I got, in college. But it's awesome to have someone like you who's there reviewing and going through everything because I know how thorough you are with the literature, but I also know you're very practical minded.
Like you want to take the literature and make it actionable. And I think everyone has their own sort of internal bar of where is there enough consensus for us to do something that we think has a positive and not much of a downside. People can argue about where that consensus is. It's gonna be a little bit different for everyone.
But the fact that you guys are all using all the literature and then showing and doing trials on the backside of that to see, did we really hit the mark with what we think is very commendable. So that's awesome.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah, we, [01:31:00] it's thanks. And you could bring people on and make a equally long argument against all of this.
It always will be that way. And some of it has come down to personal, so every, there's 15 different ingredients in the product, and all of 'em have some evidence. Some of it's only preclinical evidence that shows a positive effect that you'd wanna see on some aspect of the stem cell cycle. Then there's the art of putting all that together.
And really what you're hoping for is that the net benefit of that formulation is in the positive direction. Maybe there's something that's detracting, maybe two things are neutralizing, you'll never know.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, right. Yeah.
Dr Dan Pardi: But we don't live in a reductionist society where we're gonna be like, all right, we're gonna now do 30 years of research where we test every combination.
Dr Mike T Nelson: On every
Dr Dan Pardi: type of parameter where we're gonna get, we're gonna pull out that one ingredient, and we're only gonna use. The other 14. Now we're gonna, every combination of that poss it's not gonna [01:32:00] happen. And yet we also recognize that we don't live in a reductionist world where we're looking just for a silver bullet.
The one thing that's gonna solve the stem cell problem, so you have to use it, is the art of health science that where you deal with a little risk of how you know, the question would be like, well, how do you know? Well, there are things that you will not know, but we're gonna generate knowledge about. Does this have a downstream impact Of my joints felt better, I felt a little more youthful.
I recovered from exercise better. I'm doing really well relative to my cohort. Right. I can look and compare myself to people my age, or I can look, I can compare myself to an early a younger version of myself and I think I'm doing pretty well. We will not have perfect information on all that.
But I think with big data and AI, we're we'll actually have better tools. We'll get
Dr Mike T Nelson: closer, I think.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah. Yeah, so that's good. And it'll still won't be perfect. Oh, no, nothing will be, yeah. Yeah. There'll [01:33:00] always be some, in terms of perfect, it's like we will not have perfect knowledge, but we will be able to make informed choices.
That, and then you have to figure out what works for you. Like what's your mentality on this, what's your archetype of supplements, and then what's your budget and, where do you want to invest? But yeah, I appreciate everybody listening to the conversation You did and stayed to the end. Mike. I always love chatting with you and catching up, so thanks for having me on.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, thank you so much. And obviously I'll put links to all the products and everything there and cool. We're gonna be able to find out more about you and the company.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah, I'll say this, that Jenny, who you know is working on articles and so Nice. Really cool. Yeah, really good articles.
So you like, we'll take one ingredient and we'll talk about the research there. Oh, very cool. Just on that one ingredient related and where it comes from and the specific work. So follow the blog on Qualia. 'cause you'll continue to learn about the product and the ingredients and that goes for [01:34:00] everything, but it's a really good source of information for those who are interested in figuring out ways to take care of themselves better.
Awesome. Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Well thank you so much Dan. I really appreciate it. This has been awesome. And again, thank you for all your work and all your time and Excellent to chat once again.
Dr Dan Pardi: Yeah, great chatting, Mike.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Thanks. Thank you.
Speaker 4: Huge thanks to Dr. Dan party for being on the podcast. Always so wonderful to chat with him once again. Uh, big thanks to Quality of Life for the sponsorship of the podcast. Uh, thank you to them for all of, uh, the help and the arrangement and having, uh, Dr. Dan party on the podcast. If you wanna check out all of their great stuff, go to quality of life.com/dr.
Mike 15. I'll save you an additional 15% off of any quality of order. Um, that is [01:35:00] an affiliate link. So I do make a few clams off of that. But like I said in the intro and the podcast, I've used their supplements for many, many years. Uh, all the way back to when they very started the company, uh, meeting with the founders and I've been impressed with their products and I actually really enjoy them and I think.
You will too. So, uh, check them out. Uh, there. Use the link down below to save some money. If you want more information from me, please check out my newsletter. That's free to join. If you enjoyed this material, I think you'll enjoy the newsletter. Try to make it very informational and also entertaining. Go to the link down below or just go to mike to nelson.com.
You'll see a newsletter tab at the top and it's free to join there also. And we'll send you a cool. Unannounced free gift. Thank you once again, Dr. Dan. Check out all the information, all the stuff at Qualia. Thank you so much for listening to the [01:36:00] podcast. We really appreciate it. You could do us a helpful thing and hit the like button, download, subscribe, all that kind of stuff.
Uh, if you could really help us out on YouTube by hitting subscribe, trying to bump the YouTube subscribers up. Uh, granted probably 95% of the podcast is still audio only. Uh, but working to increase that any reviews on one of your favorite podcast platform always helps us a ton to get great guests like Dr.
Dan party here. And thank you so much for listening. We really appreciate it. We'll talk to all of you next week. See you.
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