On this week’s Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with Angelo Keely, co-founder of Kion, to geek out on all things essential amino acids (EAAs). We’ll dig into the nitty-gritty science and—more importantly—what that means for you in the real world. Want to pack on more muscle? Drop some fat without feeling wrecked? Stay strong and sharp as the years tick by? EAAs can help—if you know how to use them. We’ll break down why they’re not just “protein lite,” how they work differently than your standard whey shake, and the smartest ways to add them into your nutrition strategy. If you care about muscle, performance, or aging like a badass, this one’s worth a listen. Sponsors: Kion EAAs: https://www.getkion.com/collections/drmike
On this week’s Flex Diet Podcast, I sit down with Angelo Keely, co-founder of Kion, to geek out on all things essential amino acids (EAAs). We’ll dig into the nitty-gritty science and—more importantly—what that means for you in the real world.
Want to pack on more muscle? Drop some fat without feeling wrecked? Stay strong and sharp as the years tick by? EAAs can help—if you know how to use them. We’ll break down why they’re not just “protein lite,” how they work differently than your standard whey shake, and the smartest ways to add them into your nutrition strategy.
If you care about muscle, performance, or aging like a badass, this one’s worth a listen.
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mike T. Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things too. Add muscle, improve performance, improve body composition, do all of it within a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today on the podcast, I've got my buddy Angelo from Keon, and we're talking all about essential amino acids.
So I was able to meet up with Angelo at the International Society of Sports Nutrition in Florida this past June. Turns out he was there and went to the bar to hang out with my buddy, Dr. David Church and some other guys and who, David's been on the podcast here a couple times and Angelo was there.
So we got into a discussion about all things health and fitness and what he is up to, and essential amino acids. I was like, Hey, you should. You should be on my podcast 'cause I think people will really enjoy this. So, he is on the podcast [00:01:00] today, and as I mentioned, we're talking all about essential amino acids.
What are the pros? Why might you consider essential amino acids? What the heck are they, and how might they be useful for you? We've talked a lot about protein in the past, so you can find other episodes on that. As I mentioned, my good buddy, Dr. David Church, has been on here talking about protein.
And then, as essential amino acids are a sort of sub component of protein. But they do have some interesting properties and we'll talk all about that from muscle gain, body composition, trying to hold on to more muscle mass with aging and a lot more. Angelo did send me some essential amino acids for me to try out and.
They're actually quite good. I would say all essential amino acid products that I've ever tried do have a little bit of an aftertaste to them. So if you're expecting something to be the [00:02:00] best tasting thing you've ever had in your life, I think you'll probably be sorely disappointed. But these were quite good.
I've had some other ones in the past that were abs absolutely horrible. And as I talked about here on the podcast, I. Years ago I even ordered some just raw essential amino acids no flavoring, nothing else, and they smelled horrible. So these are actually really quite good and I found them to be super useful and we talked all about that and I liked it so much.
I even signed up to be an affiliate, so if you want to check them out, you can go to the link below. Side note, it is an affiliate link, so I do make, I don't know, a few bucks or something off of it. But they are actually super convenient and something I've been testing now for about six weeks.
And yeah, I do find them useful. So, take that with a grain of salt or whatever full disclosure you need. There you go. So enjoy this podcast with [00:03:00] Angelo talking all about essential amino acids and if you are interested in them, check out. The link below, I was able to get a deal where we do save you some dero where you can check them out yourself, man, enjoy.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Welcome to the podcast, Angelo. How are you?
Angelo Keely: I'm good. Thanks for having me, Mike. I'm glad we're finally making it happen.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. It was nice to meet you at international Society of Sports Nutrition there, which was great. And we got to chatting and I was like oh, what a small world.
Yeah. And I think
Angelo Keely: it's cool. And a great sign that David Church is who introduced us, like the man behind so much essential amino acid research.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Which is wild. How did, how'd you first meet DC.
Angelo Keely: Honestly, man, I actually met DC in person for the first time at that last conference. Oh, okay.
I guess I've been a fan of his, and I work pretty closely with Arnie Ferrando, who's Oh, sure, yeah. Had the lab, basically before, and DC's taken over that lab at University of Arkansas and it's like the Bob Wolf, [00:04:00] Arnie Ferrando, David Church Lineage or whatever. Yeah. But yeah, basically being in amino acid and protein science, and I have a supplement company, but it's basically focused on this, like they're the some of the major leaders in that field.
So, have had a closer direct relationship with Arnie as an advisor and a consultant, just helping me understand and think through this stuff, make sure we're doing the right stuff. And, we're always talking about that. There's basically a 2020 nutrients paper that David was the lead author on, and so it comes up a lot.
So I had been wanting to get to know him better for a long time, and, finally got the opportunity at that last conference to spend more time together.
Dr Mike T Nelson: That's great. I love David. He is awesome. And Arnie's hilarious too. I did a dinner and got to sit next to him for dinner and yeah, it's just I feel like whenever I have time, I would just be like, Hey, Arnie, tell us a story.
It's like, oh, this one time I was looking at these are mean, and
Angelo Keely: yeah. And he's got a cool history of like, oh yeah. Being, in, in the, being in the military, doing a lot of really early basically what would they call it? Stress based physiology [00:05:00] around immuno acids, like with burn victims, et cetera. And just I think him being, Bob Wolf's main collaborator for so many years, that's, he's got a lot, he's got a pretty cool background.
He's done a lot of stuff, a lot of things people don't even realize today, I think around. Insights we have about amino acids are because of studies those guys did in the early two thousands. And Stu Phillips came outta that lab and with Kevin Tipton. Like that's like, they, those are OGs who really, we only know a lot of the stuff we know today because of the grants they wrote and then the research they ended up conducting.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And even now, like, many years later, there's still only a handful of labs that do tracer based work. I mean their lab. And I know there's a couple smaller labs. I know I think Nick Bird's working at one. Obviously Luke Van Loon in the Netherlands and Stu Phillips lab, and there's probably a couple others I'm missing right now, but there's literally only like a handful of labs that do it on a bigger scale in the world.
Angelo Keely: Yeah. And it's and what I, what's interesting too is like even the nature of those studies they do now are not quite as [00:06:00] sophisticated as what they got to do in those early two thousands. 'cause they had way bigger budgets at that time and were able to do the actual kinetics of the unique amino acids.
Whereas now it's more simplified tracer methodology, which is still hardcore and cool in terms of like the acute measurements they can make about actually, how much of a unique amino acid gets sustained and where it ends up. Right. But they, they used to have like, again, even interesting point.
I would just say like lysine, some of the insights we know today about lysine and how it's slower to move into muscle tissue and thus why would you want a higher dose of it if you're gonna take an amino acid supplement is from those earlier studies and those bigger insights that actually there's not currently, I think of, budget or appetite to be able to actually conduct today.
So.
Dr Mike T Nelson: And correct me if I'm wrong, I think those earlier studies, they were labeling almost any amino acid they could get their hands on within reason and showing, obviously you had to make sure that the measurement is stable and you could actually do something with it. Where now it seems like the focus, and this might be a more [00:07:00] maturity of the field also too, is it's more, to get funding.
We have to also show it's maybe for sarcopenic research and so we're more interested in muscle protein synthesis or we can get some funding from the military and maybe look at muscle protein breakdown. It seems like it's for better or worse kind of narrowed over time and maybe that's the result of we know more and maybe that's the result of, someone's gotta pay for these studies because they're expensive as it is.
Angelo Keely: I'm not the best person to speak to this. And really, I think it's secondhand information I've received from these guys that are the OGs doing a lot of this research 20 years ago. I think the main insight really is actually that there used to be more of these funded clinical scenarios where there already is the hospital with the nurses, with all everything in place, and thus more of the budget could be allocated to certain other types of technologies where they're able to measure the kinetics of each individual amino acid.
Whereas today it's more like, yeah, I mean you'll get funding say from the DOD to [00:08:00] understand what's occurring and. It's not as important maybe to measure. Well, I don't, actually can't say it's not as important. They probably would advocate for being able to do it, but yeah, there's just not as much money to understand the kinetics of each individual amino acid.
Instead, you're just trying to get use the tracer methodology to understand the overall movement of the amino acids in general. That then signal generally how much potential muscle protein synthesis is occurring via, these kind of derivative, fractional synthetic rate equations that they use.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And for listeners it for, yeah, maybe we started too
Angelo Keely: nerdy. I'm like, well, did we start too ready?
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. We'll back up in just a sec, but we'll get,
Angelo Keely: like, we'll get real about why this matters for like
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Angelo Keely: Human beings today trying to get stronger. Totally fitter, faster, lose weight. Yeah. Better. And
Dr Mike T Nelson: that was, yeah, perfect transition because I feel like we're always, not always, but a lot of times trying to.
Translate the research that has been done [00:09:00] almost for a different purpose. Like there is some studies that obviously have looked at body comp, there's studies who have looked at muscle loss, but they're usually in a different context. They're usually not, like, you don't find a lot of hardcore tracer studies on, 40 Jim Bros who went to the gym who wanna see the best way to cure lean body mass or lose fat.
Like we're trying to look at, oh, we had this group of people that were trained, but they were looking at sarcopenia risk. So Oh wow. They did cut their calories by 50% and oh look, the higher protein group didn't lose as much muscle mass, which is great to know, but there's always these kind of caveats of the study and what it was done.
And I feel like a lot of times we're trying to take the best thing from this study and this other study and this other study and kind of assemble 'em in a picture for the. The average person who's listening to this podcast who probably isn't really the representative in any one of those studies, but we've got some pretty cool insights we can extend to help them out.[00:10:00]
Angelo Keely: I think that's a pretty good, accurate summation of the research. I think the one maybe caveat I'd make to that is sure, it depends on how robust the research is for a given supplement or, nutritional component that the research group is trying to understand. And in general, when you look at something like a creatine, you got a lot of studies, you got a lot of studies with a lot of different populations.
So there's more material there than to like build an overall consolidated idea around that is maybe more helpful to more people. I would say the same thing's true for essential amino acids. You're talking, a lot. I think the, when the ISSN International Society of Sports Nutrition did their position paper a couple years ago on it, there's like 137 studies cited.
So the reason why a group like the ISSN would even do a position paper about a supplement like that and release it and be able to cite that many studies and make bigger, they're not trying to make claims. 'cause it's a yeah. Research group. Conclusions consensus. But conclusions [00:11:00] consensus is because there's so much research.
So I think it's easier, right, when you're talking about maybe something that's not as novel as maybe some new cutting edge ingredient you're talking about essential amino acids, creatine like omega threes. Like these are the types of things where there's so many studies, you actually can probably simplify things and do it with more integrity than you could if you're trying to talk about, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna trash talk any other, like, supplements, but like, something that just does something that only has five studies on it.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Or Yeah, it's like, yeah, I'll throw CLA under the bus. It's like, oh, it's amazing in rodents, but doesn't do crap in humans. And so every, it's probably due to come out again, every four to five years a supplement company will come out and they'll put all the research out about, oh, look at this amazing supplement.
And it's like, in, in mice and we have human studies that didn't do anything. So,
yeah.
So why essential amino acids, like, for people listening what exactly are essential amino acids to begin with?
Angelo Keely: So, I'll give a [00:12:00] very short, simple answer and then I'll try to add a bit more context. Yeah.
Hopefully just bring everyone in and hopefully just make sure we're all on the same page. So, essential amino acids are a part of protein. So when you eat chicken, quinoa, tofu, whatever, like, and there's protein, and a part of that is essential amino acids. And the essential amino acids are the part of the protein that your body must eat.
That it is, they're essential. So the definition of essential nutrition is that you have to eat it in order to survive. But the other more provocative, I think, interesting component of essential amino acids is that they're the active component of protein. They are the part of protein that when you eat it and they hit peak concentrations in your blood, there's basically an anabolic signal and it tells your body to break down older, less functional proteins and to remake newer ones.
And so the amount of essential amino acids that you eat at once, and the fundamentally, the higher the peak concentration of those essential amino acids that get into your blood [00:13:00] corresponds directly to how much new protein synthesis new proteins are made in your body. So that's like super direct right at it, but I think it's helpful to take a step back and just make sure we're on the same page about like what even protein is.
Sure. So, the most common macronutrients people are familiar with typically are carbohydrates, fat and protein. And the primary role of carbohydrates is energy. It's like to for a TP. Fat also does that. You can use fat as an energy source, converts into a TP. That's our natural energy source.
Fat obviously also has a role in cells in the construction of our cells. Protein is pretty fundamentally different though, from fat and from carbs. So the reason why we fundamentally eat protein is because we're made out of protein and we need to rebuild the protein that we are made of. So actually it's like, I think it's only about 10% of our energy actually comes from protein that we eat.
Yeah. Most usually single
Dr Mike T Nelson: digits. Unless you're in Yeah. Five to 10% [00:14:00] weird cases.
Angelo Keely: Yeah. So it's like, so just getting that in your head right away, like when you're hungry and you want, and you're thinking about why you're hungry or you're eating these foods and you're trying to get energy to fuel your body.
Like carbohydrates and fat are actually those things that help fuel your body in that way for energy. Proteins really its primary role is different. And the, like I said, as I said just a moment ago, it's because we're made up of proteins. So all of our vital organs, over half of our bone mass, our muscle, our skin eyes, ears, hair, like all of this everything that's made of collagen.
These are all made up of proteins, but even things that are not maybe as intuitive to folks, unless you're like really into, biochem is that like your hormones and your enzymes are actually made up of protein. So all these proteins that are in the body, they basically have a certain lifetime of their own.
And what that means is that a protein functions for a certain amount of time and then it degrades and it's no longer as functional. And what happens is that protein breaks apart. [00:15:00] And the simplest way to think about this is maybe like your skin. Like I look down at my skin and I know that my skin is made up of like millions of proteins.
And there's one in there right now. One of those proteins, it's not as functional as it used to be. It's breaking apart. And when it breaks apart, it's made up of all these, it's made up of a chain of these amino acids and there's, 20 of them technically that make up that skin protein. And of those, some are still useful.
And an analogy here I like to think about is like a house. So, to run your house, to get the energy in your house, to run your dishwasher, et cetera, you need to get energy from the grid or have solar panels or run a generator or get natural gas coming in. And you can think about carbohydrates and fat that way, like maybe, like, carbs or like energy from the grid and fat is like natural gas.
And those are two different ways to run the things within your house, whereas the protein is actually what your house is made up of. At some point, like you gotta replace the carpet. The there's cracks in the [00:16:00] walls the dishwasher breaks and you have to repair it and fix it. And so, in a similar way, like these proteins in our body are breaking apart and they're not useful anymore.
But maybe you could reuse it. And example would be, let's say you're gonna redo your bathroom and it's like, Hey, actually the ceramic floor is fine. I like the ceramic tile, but this sink has gotta go. It's like cracked. It's old, it doesn't work. So you throw it out, but you keep that ceramic tile. Similarly, some of these amino acids can actually be reused to rebuild that skin protein.
Some of them can't, and you pee them out. So what goes on, just like in your house, if you throw away the sink, you have to get a new sink in. Well, if you throw away some of those amino acids, you have to get new amino acids in through your diet to help rebuild that skin. And that's why we eat protein. When you eat a chicken breast, you digest it, you break it down, the amino acids go into your blood and then they get.
Basically spread throughout your body to help rebuild these proteins. So yeah, I tried to give like the direct, super kind of technical [00:17:00] explanation of what these essential amino acids are, why they're important. And then more generally, I think put it within the context of what protein is. Is that, are we off to a good start?
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. No, that, that's good. And if you keep it the same analogy, which I've used too of people who are trying to explain that protein is used a lot for energy, which, starvation conditions, other conditions, maybe the analogy I, same idea is, well, yeah, I could burn the walls down in my house for heat, but that's not gonna work so well for very long.
Right?
Well, and that's, you can take
structure and use it for fuel, but the body wants to do that as an absolute last resort and you've got a whole bunch of other things to worry about if that's going on.
Angelo Keely: Yeah. And actually what that points to, that's a great example, Mike, and what that points to is why.
Such an pretty, like, substantial increase of essential amino acid intake is so important. If you are intentionally cutting calories,
Dr Mike T Nelson: definitely. Or
Angelo Keely: you're intentionally in [00:18:00] any kind of stress response. So if you're dealing with injury pre post-surgery aging is technically, I think like this kind of stress-based physiology and any type of caloric restriction.
If you're cutting calories, you need to be consuming a lot more essential amino acids in order to not start burning down your muscle, starting eating away at the protein within your body. And it is possible, it's possible to go on an aggressive caloric restriction. 30%. I think the recent DOD studies that that Arnie and David did, it's, I think they went up to 40%.
As long as you could still take these additional essential amino acids, you could actually not lose. Protein, you could not lose muscle during this kind of aggressive CLO restriction, but you gotta consume a lot more because that's what your body starts doing. It actually starts burning it starts burning these proteins for energy in a way that it typically would not because it's starving.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And there's an older study, I'm blanking on who the author was, but they did a high protein [00:19:00] group and a low protein group. The low protein group was just, I think around the RDA and the higher group, I think was 0.7 grams per pound. And this was not, weight training athletes or anything like that, but they saw, I think it was the higher protein group law didn't lose much lean body mass, but the low protein group lost, I think it might have been even up to almost half of their weight loss was from lean body mass.
So again, to illustrate your point, that if you just. Cut your calories, especially if you're not doing weight training or things to try to preserve lean body mass. You just slash your calories and your protein and essential am amino acids are low. Like you are going to lose muscle, which as we all know, lean body mass, it takes a while to cure, into accumulate it also.
So it's, I think a lot of the yo-yo dieting you see with people, and I can't point to a single study, but I am willing to bet a large amount of money that as they go up and down, [00:20:00] they're losing lean body mass over time. And so that's gonna make it more difficult each time because they probably don't have enough protein and amino acids to hold onto that tissue.
Angelo Keely: Y Yeah. And the reason why that's so important. Even specifically for like body composition as a young person, let's say you're just yo-yo dieting in your twenties, right? So you're not getting into this developing anabolic resistance post 30, 35, 40. Like you're in your early twenties, but you do a lot of yo-yo dieting.
Well, the thing that, and I think that 50% is probably a bit aggressive. My understanding is like, yeah, short term it could be like 40%. But again, if I go on an aggressive diet right now and I wanna lose 10 pounds, and I'm not thinking about my essential amino acid intake, ten four pounds could be muscle.
Yeah. And the difference between losing six pounds of fat, plus four pounds of muscle, or losing just 10 pounds of fat is pretty different. Like, just the way I look, I feel I move everything is very different, but more importantly, that muscle is part of the [00:21:00] metabolic engine. Right? The muscle is energy intensive too.
To just maintain your muscle, you're gonna have a higher resting metabolic rate because that muscle, like we're talking about earlier, it's like it's breaking down all the time and having to rebuild. And anytime you go and try to do activities, it requires more energy because you have more of it. It's like a, it's an engine, right?
That requires, it's a bigger engine that requires more energy to fuel it. And thus, by doing that, you it's easier to stay leaner because you have a, like the fuel gets burned more quickly. The calories that you eat get burned more quickly. And so execs yeah it's. Exactly what you said is the case where you go on this yoyo diet, you cut a bunch of calories, you lose muscle, you lose the fat.
Then if you repeat with whatever the kind of less ideal or more uncontrolled behaviors were before where you go back to eating kinda whatever you want, you put back on those 10 pounds you didn't put back on. It's unlikely you put back on six pounds of fat and four pounds muscle. You, it's probably more like you put on nine pounds of fat and one pound of muscle and I'm being [00:22:00] very yeah,
Dr Mike T Nelson: just backing
Angelo Keely: the envelope numbers.
Yeah. Back the envelope. Yeah. I'm not saying illustrative point of view. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like you do that multiple times, like Yes. Necessarily you're going in the wrong direction from where you, where most of us probably want to go.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And I think an underappreciated that not only do you have, somewhat an increase in resting metabolic rate, which people debate how much it's some, but it's not huge.
But then you also, you have to move all that mass around. So if you're walking, you're doing exercise. And then we know that you're, in general, people are gonna lose lean body mass as they age, especially if they're not doing any countermeasures. And so not only are you maybe changing metabolic rate a little bit, but you're, you have, your body is becoming more efficient at calories and you want to do the opposite.
Like you wanna make it a little bit more inefficient. You want to try to move more, you want to try to lift more weight. Like you want to have a higher output over time. And like you said, you're cutting the thing that's making you functional to do those [00:23:00] types of activities in addition.
Angelo Keely: Yeah, and correct my math if I'm wrong here, but even a hundred calories a day of a difference times 365 days, where that's 36,000 calories approximately in a year.
Yep. Right. And if you think about approximately 35, 3,500 calories to burn a pound equal to a pound of fat on your body, that's like 10 pounds of fat. You could, that you could gain in a year if you lost a hundred calories per day of burn.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah,
Angelo Keely: it's very small. Yeah. It's like, it's like, it's well maybe even like, the actual like increase of how many more calories per day you're really going to burn, just resting, metabolic, or with your added emphasis on like every time you move, right?
And every time you do exercise, you're gonna burn that much more. You just see like that a hundred calories a day actually is a pretty big impact. And rather than trying to restrict another a hundred calories of food, if you can actually make your body that much more efficient through slightly more muscle mass, not [00:24:00] losing your muscle mass and finding ways to do like, neat, like you're just burning calories throughout the day.
It's like, it's pretty I think it's, I get why some people wanna be like, oh, it's not really that big of a deal. The resting metabolic rate increase or even like the diet induced thermogenesis from eating protein. It's not that big of a deal. It's like you add it up though, like a hundred calories per day is actually like.
Pretty big deal over the long term.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, that's up to me is so crazy on both sides of the spectrum. Like, they call it creeping obesity where people, may gain five to eight pounds per year, which, on a per day basis doesn't come out to be very much at all. But now you add that up over, let's say even three years.
Let's say you're on the high end of the scale, it's eight pounds now you're 24 pounds over what you were before. And the thing that I find fascinating too is that how your body is able to regulate that tight in someone who's not probably doing a lot of the better things they could do. That it's still a very small air, but [00:25:00] obviously makes a big difference over time.
The fact that your body can even regulate that tightly, like if you would've came to me years ago and said, eh humans, we'll just let 'em live on their own. Like how close would they regulate it? I'm like, oh my God, they're gonna be a disaster. They're gonna be like a hundred pounds in a year.
There's no way they're gonna be close. And it turns out they're pretty close, but it's definitely enough where you multiply that by a few months, a few years, some people a decade, like it definitely adds up and causes more issues in time. For sure.
Angelo Keely: And I think another example, or another issue that comes up in this is, so oftentimes in nutrition science as it's represented online or health advice is rep represented online.
It's like we're all the same. We're not all the same. We're very different heights, we're different muscular builds, we're different genders, et cetera. And like someone that is six three does burn typically more calories. Just per day and per pound of body weight. Then someone who's five 10 and weighs the same.
And it's based off [00:26:00] just like how the muscles spread and overall efficiency of the body, et cetera. And if you think about that more cross genders, like I'm a 200 pound guy, my wife's like 125 pound woman, 20 pounds is pretty different to us. Like t her, like for me to gain 20 pounds, yeah, it's like a 10% increase in my total body weight, which is not nothing.
If that's significant, like you would notice it on me, but her who's, only 125 pounds, it's gonna be even more significant. So just us understanding that like the nuance of even what a a hundred calories per day could be is different for different people too.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And what'd you get used to?
Like I've had people, like, I'm like, just go grab a 10 pound weight from the gym and just stick it in a vest and you have to wear that 24 7. Now Uhhuh like at the end of the day, I guarantee you're not gonna tell me it's insignificant. Yeah. It doesn't seem like a lot, but when you're like, have the thing strapped to your body for like a whole day, you're like oh yeah.
And like imagine if that was, 20 or 25 pounds and it's like, oh yeah, that feels a little [00:27:00] different. Got it. So what is the advantage of using essential amino acids versus just protein?
Angelo Keely: So, I think it, it's helpful to just understand, to repeat and maybe dial a little bit more this idea of the concentration of eaas in the blood.
Yes. So I'm first gonna just set the context around if you are a already a fit, healthy individual and you're under the age of 30. You're not seeking any like unique performance enhancements, then the nuance of the science is not gonna be as important to you if though you are trying to lose fat or you're over the age of 30, and I'd say the old, basically, the more fat you wanna lose or the older you want to, the older that you are or the more refined, tense, specific your performance goals are.
Like you're a performance athlete and you're really trying to get like this much better, then everything I'm about to share is more important. And again, [00:28:00] I just offer that context. 'cause I think oftentimes conversations around this are just like, this is true. That's not da. It's like, yeah, nobody wants to
Dr Mike T Nelson: talk about context.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's like
Angelo Keely: This that's the context of what we're talking about. So, basically if you consume 30 grams of beef protein, which is the equivalent of like, say like around like a five, six ounce steak and you consume it on its own. Meaning nothing else is consumed with it.
Your body has an easier time of getting the essential amino acids that are in that protein into the blood more quickly. And thus what's been shown, and I'll just go back to the that 2020 nutrients paper that DC is the lead author on, but this is also summarized within the ISSN position paper from 2023.
It will have a higher increase in the EAA concentrations in the blood than if you ate over twice that amount, 70 grams of beef protein, but you ate that beef protein as part of a mixed [00:29:00] meal. So the reason for that is because it's intuitive, right? Like you're digesting other things. It takes more time to digest just that protein for the EAs to get in the blood.
And what has been determined as causal is that the higher that amount of the eaas in the blood, you'll get a larger amount of. Basically stimulation of whole body protein synthesis. So not just the muscle protein synthesis, but overall the body reads those eaas in the blood as the opportunity to break down older proteins and rebuild them with newer ones.
So right off the bat, you could actually eat less steak, less total caloric impact if you're trying to really, nuance your meals and get the same, if not greater impact in terms of actual muscle protein turnover and whole body protein turnover. So that's like, you just get that, like that's protein on its own.
That's like whole intact beef protein. So then if you were to compare that beef protein to whey protein powder which is slightly more [00:30:00] processed, refined, and I'm not, don't say that in a bad way. It's like literally through cold filtration, you're removing more of the fat, you're removing more of the carbs, et cetera, and the profile of that, whe whey protein is a little bit better than the beef protein in terms of like the leucine.
It's a bit more stimulatory in a young adult. You're gonna see about a three times increase actually across the board. You're gonna see about a three times increase no matter the age in terms of the EAA levels in the blood versus the beef protein gram for gram. So whether you get 20 grams of the beef protein or 20 grams of the whey protein, you're gonna see way more eaas in the blood afterwards from that whey protein powder.
And the reason for that, again, is because it's that much more easily digested. And thus the concentrations of the EA can get into the blood quicker. They're actually, I think, relatively in terms of the protein sources themselves, they're both about 40, they're like low to mid forties 45% eaas.
So when you actually break down the beef protein source, the whey protein [00:31:00] powder, 55% I'm saying approximate, right? And every piece of meats gonna be a little different. And whe protein be different. About 55% is the non-essential amino acids. Which do not impact the increase in muscle protein synthesis at all.
Zero. They have zero impact. And this is, they've done multiple studies on this. It's entirely the amount of the essential amino acids that you consume that actually have this kind of chemical component where it's stim, it's stimulatory. So the way protein has about as much gram for gram, but because again, it's stripped of the carbs, the fat, et cetera, and it's more easily digestible, you're gonna get this higher increase.
So right across the board, I would say the whey protein is gonna be more effect. A whey protein powder is gonna be more effective than a whole food protein and overall stimulating protein synthesis in the body. Now, when you compare that to an essential amino acid supplement, which the amino acid profile of an essential amino acid supplement is 100%.
Eaas, there are no [00:32:00] non-essential amino acids, right? You would naturally intuit that. You'd be like, oh, well, like you could probably take less of it, or you're gonna get a greater impact. And that is exactly what happens. But rather what is like the eaas relative to the way protein. It's about three times the impact.
So even though it's only about double the composition of eaas, because remember way is about half the eaas are 100% because there's basically no digestion. They're just immediately available and go into the blood. They reach that peak concentration that much more quickly, and thus they have an even greater stimulatory effect than the whey protein.
So this would be true for anyone. Doesn't really matter your age. It doesn't matter, like really specific health condition this is about. And there'll be, there'll be differences on how your digestion works, et cetera, but really basically across the board, 'cause you were saying earlier, is there something for a 40-year-old man that, is trying to get these certain gains?
Like this is just the way that [00:33:00] in general, I think across the board amino acids are gonna be digested and where, and how they're gonna reach peak concentration in the blood. And we know that the higher the concentration, the greater the impact on protein synthesis. So across the board you're gonna get a way bigger impact nutritionally from it.
And what I would say is if you compare it to just like beef protein and you actually look at the graphs, and you can look at this in that ISSN report, they actually have a beef protein relative to eaas. It, the protein on its own is not very anabolic. Which makes sense. Why generally in gym bro culture and exercise science combined with nutrition science is like, well, you work out and you do the resistance training and that's what creates all the stimulation and then the protein is just the building block to help it, right?
Because the whole food protein is not that anabolic well away protein powder is more anabolic, significantly more anabolic than just a whole food protein. It actually has an impact outside of any exercise. And an essential amino acid supplement is even more, it's much more [00:34:00] significantly anabolic than just the whole food protein.
So you suddenly have these nutritional therapies options with a protein powder, even better, with an EA supplement to actually stimulate the muscle protein turnover without exercise. If you then combine that with exercise, the synergistic effect is even greater. The two combined together of, and this is not only resistance training, this is also endurance and cardio based training, that still has a muscular component of it.
That when you have the increased blood flow. Combined with the essential amino acids, you get this much greater impact in terms of total muscle protein turnover for the body. So that's for everybody then. And then we can, do, we take these one by one, or you can ask follow up questions on this.
When you start getting into unique situations about, well, what about for aging? What's the impact and why? And would you change the formula? And the answer is yes. The formula actually needs to be a little bit different as you age. And some of the really big claims, like E aass have six times the impact of whey protein for women in their sixties, [00:35:00] which is one of the ones that comes outta the ISSN report.
And, there's a study on that. It's not any, it's not any formula. It's not any formula. There's important tweaks you have to make to actually get that to overcome the anabolic resistance. Or if you want to talk about during caloric restriction, what are the impacts? Is it even greater or worse or performance, et cetera.
I think there's more nuance, but that's the high level of why EAA supplements. Should even exist. Right? It's not like why they could, because there's all, there's still like, all kinds of supplements that exist that are garbage, not worth your money. Oh,
Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah.
Angelo Keely: But EAs should exist. They have a real important I think, contribution to people trying to optimize their health.
And that's why
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and I think that's a good point because how I think about it is if you're to graph out just resistance training in and of itself, you see a bump in protein synthesis for 24, 48, maybe 72 hours. It's something in measured in days, but it's not super high. It's like your baseline goes up and then it slowly comes down.
And then with [00:36:00] protein and obviously whey protein or essential amino acids, you have these other little blips that are much, much higher, that kinda ride on top of this kind of elevated baseline. So when you're doing both of 'em, your whole graph and everything is shifting upwards at the same time through.
Similar, but you had different mechanisms over different time courses then too. Yeah.
Which explains
why you don't see a lot of humans get jacked just by eating protein. It's helpful, but you need a stimulus too.
Angelo Keely: Yeah. And obviously too, even, really fascinating studies like, again, we're going back to the same group like the Bob Wolf, Arnie Ferrando kind of tradition. These studies, they did, I think it's 20 years ago now for nasa, basically, where they were trying to get. People to not lose muscle mass. Yep. Because like NASA astronauts they don't have any resistance training, so how can they maintain their muscle mass or explore, NASA's obviously trying to explore how can we manage this?
And so they do this study where they, the original one was young adults, 28 days of bed [00:37:00] rest. So literally they're not getting outta bed for 28 days. They have regular meals, but then they get these servings of essential amino acids. And at that time it was also with carbohydrates. But they realized later they didn't need the carbohydrates at all.
It was purely the eaas on their own were stimulatory enough. They gave them these doses a couple times per day, and after 28 days, there was no net muscle loss. How can there be no net muscle loss for. A group of these people, a total bed loss for 28 days. Anyone you know who's gone through something like that before has lost muscle.
Well, it's because nutritionally the eaas are, they've profoundly anabolic to help overcome that. But did strength maintain? Did function maintain? No. Yeah. Yeah. Like you stop using your muscles for 28 days, like you're not gonna, immediately go out and be just as strong as you were before, even if you were able to maintain that muscle mass.
So I think also the idea that muscle protein synthesis on its own, or even just maintaining muscle mass on its own is the, is like the most important or the only indicator of health is not accurate. And there's a lot of other [00:38:00] things that occur through resistance training other than just NPS.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, yeah.
Yeah. And that's a good caveat because. It's the best proxy we have for what we're trying to look at. Right. And as like a lot of the other studies we'll look at, they'll look at DEXA, but they'll look at some type of output from it too. Like what is the muscle able to do? Did you lose some power?
Did you lose some strength? Did you lose size? There's all these other different components that are associated with it too,
Angelo Keely: which is important. I think like the kind, like these kind of very acute mechanistic studies that try to understand what's happening, how much muscle protein synthesis, what's the fractional synthetic rate applied to this.
Like, it's interesting, I think it's very helpful. But also what are the human outcomes studies? Like what, what happens when this group takes this supplement versus the placebo group over the course of three months? And what I would say is there's very, and this is again why I think amino essential amino acids are a real thing worth considering for people is because you give them to, say women in their sixties and you have one group that [00:39:00] takes 10 grams twice a day for three months, and they put on pounds of muscle.
With no additional exercise training. They were doing some form of exercise training, but they didn't add any additional exercise training. All they did was add in the supplement and they add pounds of muscle or elderly people who like, have significant increases in walking speed, walking duration. I've seen it again and again with like cross feet type athletes.
So it's like they, they break prs and they're not changing their training at all. They're just adding this. So, it's important to look at like both mechanistically, what's happening and like, do people actually get results from this? Like, is it actually changing the outcome of their life somehow?
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and I especially think with, I think about my parents or even elderly people, they just, the amount of protein they're consuming is in most cases, so woefully low to begin with.
But you also run into things of, wow, they only have so many feeding times and they're in the nursing home and they only get so much amount. [00:40:00] And oh, like even my grandma, when she was getting older, it was just hard for her to physically eat protein. Like, so even if you got her more protein and you got it to her and you were able to bring it to her and you're able to cut it up, like even just physically for her to eat, it becomes very difficult.
Versus something you can put into a solution that you can drink in terms of ease and convenience and ability to actually use it is also a big difference because shocker, people know this, like, if you buy a supplement, it doesn't do any good if it collects dust in your cabinet. Like you have to use
Angelo Keely: it.
Yeah. And if you think for, again, it's, I think the more extreme results and impacts are for an older group. Yes. But you think about for that group too, it's like, and if the solution is gonna have six to 10 times the impact. Trying to get her to eat that chicken.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah,
Angelo Keely: like, like, I think keep her enga, keep grandma engaged with eating real meals and Oh, for sure.
Spending time with people and doing things like that. But when you're really like, the goal is, I'm just trying to [00:41:00] get her to get this higher protein intake. Really what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get higher essential amino acid intake and really what I'm trying to do is get overall better muscle protein turnover and help her build and maintain muscle.
If this other thing is gonna be so many times more impactful, why would I not think, it's an obvious thing. So again, like for my parents who are like in their seventies and almost 80, it's like for them. Essential amino acids are like absolutely every day, multiple times a day. For me, I'm 41. It's like, it is important to me.
I do use it. It's a daily fundamental supplement for me that helps me build and to maintain muscle as I age. And it's part of, my daily diet, but it's not as crucial as it is for someone who's 70. And I would say if someone was, again, like I said earlier, like, you're already really fit and you don't really have performance goals and you're 22.
It's like, I don't know that it's worth it, it's like, but if you have performance goals, it is, it's same thing for creatine. If you don't really have performance goals, you're 22. I don't think, [00:42:00] why would you take creatine? It's like, you could do other things, but you've got performance goals.
You, you stack creatine in essential amino acids, and suddenly you've got more output, you're lifting more weights, you're getting fitter, you're getting stronger.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And my two case scenarios would be, so let's say it's the average 45-year-old. They go to the gym three times a week, they do some cardio then two different conditions, condition.
One would be they're doing more of a fat loss phase. So they're obviously purposely gonna be in a caloric restriction. The second phase would be they're the opposite. They're actually trying to gain more lean body mass. How would you use like essential amino acids in those two cases? Or would they be different?
Angelo Keely: I think they're relatively pretty similar. You're just gonna get different impacts from them, and it's really the other. Changes that you're making that, that are leading to the fat loss or leading to more of the muscle building. So let's take the fat loss first. So if the main idea is I'm 45 and I want to lose fat, but I want to maintain my muscle.[00:43:00]
Then what I would point to is more recent research over the last few years, the studies for the DOD that basically showed that a 30% caloric deficit. So let's just say this is probably lower calorie intake than, a 45-year-old male. But it's easier math, right? Yeah. If daily, I 2000 calories is like, actually let's go for 3000, 3000 calories is my maintenance.
And I'm pretty active. I'm already pretty active. And 3000 calories is my like my daily maintenance and I want to cut 30%. So I'm gonna go a little bit higher. I'm gonna go 33%. So I'm gonna cut a thousand calories a day. That's pretty aggressive. 'cause over the course of like seven days, it's like I wanna lose two pounds a week.
Which I think is still within the realm of like, not unreasonable, it's not like crazy, but that's more aggressive. I wanna lose two pounds a week. And so, and I'm like committed, I'm gonna do it. That 30% caloric deficit has been shown that you actually need a 300% increase in essential amino acids [00:44:00] in a dose to maintain the net protein balance.
So what that means is, and they did this study with young, and so what I would say is it's gonna be even probably we, there's not a 45-year-old man study. Yeah. Like a 22-year-old man study. But I would say is it's worse for us.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yes.
Angelo Keely: The 22-year-old man, it's gonna, it's gonna be better. So I'd say it's worse for us.
I can't say exactly how much, but I promise you like the the stress response is worse and the anabolic resistance is worse. So you cut that many calories you need to eat. They literally had to give people three times the amount of essential amino acids to get a net protein balance. Meaning that they don't lose muscle.
So you need to be eating a lot more protein and or you want to be supplementing with essential amino acids probably a couple times throughout the day. And here it's gonna come down to adherence, so it's like, sure. If it's easier for you, like take maybe 20 grams of essential amino acids twice a day, if you do that on this more aggressive [00:45:00] cutting period where you're trying to lose two pounds of fat, you have a pretty, and again, every body is going to be different and I can't promise exactly what's gonna happen, but like you have a pretty good chance of if you're combining that with some resistance training, not overly intense cardios, you're not getting too hungry.
Right. And then overeating, but yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Angelo Keely: You're generally managing the actual caloric restriction and you're doing this resistance training and you add those to serving, twice a day, 20 grams, you have a really good chance of losing no muscle. You have a really good chance of only losing fat over that period, and that's a pretty significant body transformation.
Again, losing 10 pounds of fat only and maintaining all your muscle is a very different look. Than losing four pounds of muscle and six pounds of fat.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, yeah. I don't think people realize that. Like, if you can, I've often said if you could recomposition magically just 10 pounds, and by recomp mean mythically, add 10 pounds of muscle, lose 10 pounds of fat, that's a huge difference.
And just on the fat loss scale, if you can just lose only 10 pounds with no muscle loss, like that's, that is [00:46:00] significant. I don't I know like online, everyone's like, oh, but that's not that much. I'm like, but for the average size person, that is something that it would be very noticeable
Angelo Keely: for.
For a 200 pound man. That is basically a 5% reduction in body fat,
Dr Mike T Nelson: right?
Angelo Keely: Yeah. If I'm 200 pounds and I'm a 20% body fat and I lose 10 pounds of fat, I'm now a 15% body fat that is different. Or, like that's a very significant that's going from like, I'm like, I'm not I'm like, fine, healthy to like, yeah.
Yeah. I'm like pretty, I'm like a lot more athletic looking.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Angelo Keely: That's pretty big difference versus Yeah, again, like six pounds, it's like yeah, two, two point and a half percent, which is not nothing going from 20 to 18, 17.5%, but it's different. So yeah, I think. Anyway. I'd say that's the big point is if you're doing some type of aggressive caloric restriction, and I, the same thing is gonna be true if you're cutting 500 calories, if you're only counting 15%.
I think just the point is when you cut calories, what happens is your body is in a stress response. [00:47:00] It's not using protein in essential amino acids in them as efficiently as it did before to promote new muscle, new proteins to be built throughout the body. And it's not just muscle, and I think this is something that Arne Ferrando points out a lot to me.
He is like, man, muscle protein per day is like one, 2%, like the liver proteins, 30%, 30% of these proteins have to be turned over every day. And so, yeah, that's a, that stuff too is high. That's a pretty high demand. And when you think about how high that demand is, if your body's not efficiently doing it.
It need, it's not efficiently prioritizing the use of the amino acids for that. And it's burning more of the amino acids for energy. 'cause it's starving and it's doing these other things. Where does it get those other amino acids from to help rebuild those liver proteins? Your muscle, it starts, your muscle is the reservoir of amino acids for the rest of your body.
So it's gonna start breaking down that muscle at a more accelerated rate to supply the body with the amino acids it needs so that like you have new heart tissue so that you have all the proteins for your liver. You need, like, [00:48:00] it's your body can't stop doing these super functional activities and your protein is what gets used.
Your muscle is what gets used to supply those needs for the body. So anyway, so I think that's the fat loss story I think for the muscle story. In general, if you're already happy with your, the amount of fat that you have on your body right now, but you want to increase your muscle.
So naturally in doing that, you will inclu, you will increase the percentage of muscle in your total weight, and you will decrease the amount of fat in your total weight because simply the pie's getting bigger, right?
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. If you're just that in muscle. Yeah. If
Angelo Keely: I'm 200 pounds and I want, I add five pounds of muscle, well, like naturally, like, but I'm okay with the amount of fat, the total body fat that I have.
Like my body fat percentage is gonna go down, but my muscle's gonna go up. So how do I get there? Well, it's not just through, you can't get there through caloric restriction, right? I think there's ways in which you can maintain muscle and even potentially build muscle through like really strategic means of essential amino acids, resistance training, et cetera, during a cut.[00:49:00]
But if all you're trying to do is build muscle, like, well, you don't wanna be cutting calories, you wanna be supplying your body with enough energy every single day to easily. Survive and build new muscle, have the energy to train, et cetera. And then really, I think it comes down to you it's gonna come through training strategies like progressive overload, which I am not in any way as familiar with know, exercise physiology.
I think you, you probably have a lot more experience than that, than I do and others do. But like, you gotta be thinking about that. And then from a nutritional strategy, it is, I think not just trying to, and this is a nuance I think that gets overlooked and even by very smart trainers and scientists online talking about is it more important, like the total amount of protein per day or how you dose it out, et cetera.
I think there's gonna be a minimum threshold of the amount of protein you just need in your diet. To have these increases and likely as you get older you're going to need more. That may be the threshold for someone who's 20 is like 0.8 grams. And actually if they go to 0.9 or one gram per pound of body weight, they don't get that [00:50:00] much more impact, I would say for someone in their forties.
I I would venture to say that for many of us, it's gonna be at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. And you might even see greater increases in greater improvements through, through increasing that 1.1, 1.2 kind of again, depending on your unique body and com and what kind of training you're doing.
And then what I would say is, in addition to that, if you can add in the essential amino acids before training. And the reason for this is it's the synergistic effect, not just of the stacking of the protein synthesis that gets generated from the resistance training plus the amino acids, but you're actually the blood flow, you're pushing more of the amino acids into the muscle.
And so you're getting an even greater impact. You will get, like, that will have a significant impact that you won't just get from like just trying to eat protein before you train. And it's like still digesting in your stomach. You're actually getting these essential amino acids, they're going in your blood and then they're getting pushed into your muscle while you train.
You're gonna get improvements and increases in overall muscular [00:51:00] performance in endurance and just overall outcomes from doing that. And then I think the other thing is gaps in between the day, so it's like, rather than maybe just trying to eat. One more stick a beef jerky, or one more chicken breast or whatever.
If instead, like right before bed, like let's say you, you wanna sleep well, so you don't eat three hours before bed, but right before bed you take a serving of essential amino acids and you take, what I would say is if you're not in caloric deficit, the maximum impact you're gonna get is at about 15 grams.
If you're in caloric deficit, these more recent studies have shown that up to about 25, I think up to 25 grams, you it after that it starts to plateau. But about 15 grams is really the max. So if you know with a lot, it depends on what product you're taking. Like with my brand, that's about three scoops.
Like we have five grams of active essential amino acids in one serving. So it's like three scoops of it or however many capsules. If you take that right before bed, if you like to wake up in the morning and train fasted, or you [00:52:00] don't eat for a while, like take it first thing in the morning or take them other times throughout the day that are outside of meal periods, what you are doing is you are stimulating another bout of protein synthesis throughout the body, and you're going to be ultimately increasing the amount of protein synthesis that occurs, that's gonna support greater muscle accumulation and overall better muscle function, et cetera.
And that's gonna support you generally in building muscle. So what I would say is how aggressive are your goals? Like how much muscle you're trying to put on, how fast I don't really think you can. The ISSN study basically said 100 grams of essential amino acids per day as a supplement are deemed safe, even like long term.
A lot. Oh
Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah. Safety is not an issue. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm talking like, it's like
Angelo Keely: basically as much as you want to take, and I would just say like, I don't, I think you're gonna, one, you can just take one serving, you can take five grams. That's good. If you're willing to, you could take up to three servings.
You could take, 15 grams and do that 1, 2, [00:53:00] 3 times a day. If you did that, you will overall be supporting muscle grain, more quickly than you would otherwise. And then this, the other thing I would say is like, pairing it with creatine is a great solution. Overall, and just to clarify on this, like the essential amino acids are promoting protein synthesis.
Now, regardless of whether I exercise or not. What the creatine is doing is it is saturating the cells in your muscle with the phospho, creatine stores so that when you go to train, you have those phospho creatine stores, you have higher concentrations of them more readily available so that you can push through an extra rep, an extra two reps, and thus you're going to be able to train more and harder and keep pushing yourself.
And so I think the creatine, like without the training doesn't really make much sense. Other, yeah, I think you can make arguments for mood and cognition, et cetera. Yeah. Fractional muscle. Yeah. It's really supporting you in the training, right. Whereas the essential amino acids are supporting you even on the days when you're not training.
Like they're literally promoting it and doing the [00:54:00] protein synthesis and they're supporting you on the days when you train. They support when you take 'em right before, et cetera. And so I think those are a great pair. Like I, I would prioritize probably those two supplements for if you're really trying to add five pounds of muscle.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Perfect. And then I'll ask you what is in the eeaa. But my last question on the training is recently I actually put 'em in my inter training drink uhhuh. And so I have like a higher volume Monday, I'll do higher volume upper body for like two hours, and then Saturday I'll do higher volume, lower body for about two hours.
And I put him in the drink during the training and I'll usually consume it during like, probably about the first half of training. And I remember years ago John Meadows talking about this and many other people and Eric Serrano. And it was one of those things where I always like, ah, I don't know, but it's, it is anecdotal, but it seems to make a difference.
Like I don't feel quite as sore and it feels like if I had to perform that same exercise, like my [00:55:00] duration is shorter on being able to do that. Do you have any thoughts about. During training versus before training, because like you mentioned,
yeah,
we know you're gonna get a peak rise in the amino acids.
They're easy to absorb. I don't have to worry about a meal. I don't have any digestion upset or anything like that. And I also just found it was also sometimes that I'm lazy. Just more convenient.
Angelo Keely: Yeah, totally. What I would say is that the intra is probably as, as long as they're drunk. Like rather quickly.
Yeah. If you're saying intro workout versus like pre rather quickly and you can actually get, the increase in it. Like it's about just as good. If you're just slowly drinking them throughout, it's still a good thing. But I would say for, I'll speak about this like more mechanistically to help it make sense about why it makes sense and why your anecdotal evidence is very reasonable.
And that is because as we exercise, we are oxidizing more amino acids than we typically do when we're not. And the [00:56:00] reason for that is because amino acids, and this kind of goes back to some of the earlier BCAA science and how BCAAs alone, which I would say are not worth people's time or money. And there's a great, I would agree, there's a great paper on that 2017, I think Bob Wolf is the lead author and it's like BCAA's Myth a reality, and it just, it's a good summary of like, don't waste your time on BCAAs.
But basically the BCAAs and particularly Leucine is oxidized at this higher rate because it does play a facilitator role. In the production of a TP in the mitochondria. Like, it, it actually gets, it's not being burned as energy, but it's being, it's facilitating that process.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Angelo Keely: And when you're moving your,
Dr Mike T Nelson: you need some of them along with the process.
Angelo Keely: Yeah. And so as you are exercising more, you're oxidizing more of 'em. And thus that is why they have seen that we, even with endurance athletes, like supplementing with eaas during like some kind of intense long workout, every hour, like let's say you're gonna run a marathon, you can get better outcomes and it's because [00:57:00] basically it reduces the amount of total muscular fatigue and improves your muscular endurance.
So it makes a lot of sense that through taking them, you would feel like you had o over particularly a two hour session, that you would experience more of that kind of overall improvement in endurance. That's what I heard you speaking to. I think apart from that though also is that the essential amino acids themselves are the precursors of our neurotransmitters.
And it is clear that through supplementing with them, you can change and modify your overall neurotransmitter balance and how you feel, et cetera. And I know that there's new research coming out about this soon that basically illustrates this point much more poignantly and is gonna have really clear data around it.
But basically I think the reason why many of us feel mental energy improvements when we take essential amino acids is because you're getting larger amounts, particularly in these types of formulations where it's like there's more leucine, there's more pH alanine, there's lower amounts of [00:58:00] tryptophan.
And this relationship between the overall dopamine and serotonin levels that get created through, there's really one transporter that's like converting all these amino acids into neurotransmitters. Like that is we're getting higher levels of dopamine. So you're feeling more alert, you're feeling more energized because you're getting the higher levels of these certain amino acids that are supporting that versus, tryptophan and other ones that are actually producing more serotonin and making you feel more sleepy and tired.
So I find it very common, just I notice if I don't take the essential amino acids first thing in the morning, that I'm just not quite as like alert. It's like my focus is not quite as doubt. It's not a drug-like impact like caffeine.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah.
Angelo Keely: Like caffeine, I'm like, like stimulated.
Right. But it's a different function and I function better and differently. So yeah, I think that those are two, two main reasons why you would have that experience of endurance. Maybe like things feel easier or feel better. And I think this is also another good point to make. Like, and I always try to [00:59:00] maybe conclude on these points.
Yeah. Yeah. Really these types of conversations is just. Get away from the idea that there's one perfect solution and there's one perfect way. And rather it's like we're all just these beings going through life, observing this physical phenomenon together. That's what's so cool about science, measuring what's happening, applying to things, trying and see what works.
And it's like if you can just get out of this conversation, just the idea of like, oh, these amino acids, they would help me and I should try taking them. And what works best for you is to take them intra-workout that is going, like, I know for you, Mike, that is going to be beneficial for you and create more benefits for you than if you didn't.
And rather than you being like, oh, I have to take 'em before, but it like doesn't really work. Like you don't like drinking a bunch of stuff right before, it's like, who cares, man? Like you're getting good benefit from it and you're stacking good habits on top of each other. And so I think that's just like a nuance I always like to come back to.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I always tell clients that like, better is better. Better. Exactly what [01:00:00] they're like, well, but why did this work? I'm like. I don't know man. But you're better. So yeah, I've got pretty good data to show. There's not a cost, there's not some hidden negative we're worried about. It's usually the upside we don't know.
And if we know the cost, like, branch, essentially amino acids have been shown to be ridiculously safe. So we know that there's not really much of a downside. Obviously cost. Obviously you have to consume them, but outside of that, there's no thing I'm like super worried about the upside.
Yeah, probably like you said, different cases, different people are gonna have different experiences, but that's why you try stuff. That's why you run your own little experiments to see, and if it's better, then it's better. And that was the goal. So you hit the goal, so yay, don't Yeah. Worry so much sometimes.
Angelo Keely: Yeah. About whether it was like perfect or not, and then try it before. It's like if you can try taking it before Yeah. You start taking it before you train and see if you get, even greater. Experiences from it or take both. I, what I would say is like the [01:01:00] hardcore, yeah. Yeah.
A scientist would say, do it all. Sure. Like, take 15 grams before then be sipping on 'em during, and then take 15 grams after. And like that's how you're gonna get maximum benefit. And that's, that is a lot there. I think there is like the cost element that starts to come in Sure. For people, but it's like, how important are your goals?
Can you cut out wine or something else that's maybe not as positive for you if you wanna do that? Or can you even consider like, Hey, by doing that actually I realize I don't maybe actually need this protein shake now and this thing's actually more efficient or effective or it's like, just realizing how the pieces fit together for you to get to the goals that you wanna get to.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And I think that's always an individual choice, right? You present the data. Like, here's what I think is going on. I even try to do this with clients too. Like, okay, if you like this, okay, here's these other two options and then here's, the cost in terms of behavior or money or whatever.
And then. They have to decide. Or I think maybe five, 10 years ago I wasn't as good at doing that. I ran [01:02:00] everything through my own value system and kind of pre-judged for them. Where now I try to make it like, okay, hey, you can try this. Here's your option, here's your pros, here's your cons. 'cause like you said, it's sometimes different things are worth different amounts to certain people.
And obviously people have a different priority of which their goals are to them. Elite level athletes, half a percent makes a big difference. People just starting to exercise half a percent doesn't make any damn difference at all. But each person has their own calculator of, what it is worth to them.
And they have to decide that. Or I think you go online and it just seems like a bunch of people deciding for a bunch of other people.
Angelo Keely: And I think the tough thing too is like, it is hard to understand some of this data. Oh, for sure. It's a, like a really common question I get is like. For older adults, like for my dad, someone asking like, should he be taking, like the should be prioritize.
I'm trying to get him on one should be trying to get him on the creatine or on the aminos, like which one is a better thing for him. Right. And I then have to ask like, well why are you taking, are you trying to [01:03:00] get the cognitive benefits or is it just the, and as soon as they say the cognitive, I'm like, well, he needs to take 20 grams a day.
That's a lot of creatine. Yeah. But I take 20 grams and like my, I have gi distress, like it's a lot. So I only take those higher doses of 10 or 15 grams if I had like bad sleep.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Like
Angelo Keely: it's, I'm really trying to overcome some kind of stress thing. So I'm like, do you really think he's gonna take 20 grams a day of this and have like diarrhea, like every single day?
And then it might not be worth it for him. Right. Whereas like if we're really just comparing a five gram dose for him versus say taking essential amino acids every day. I'd tell 'em essential for most older people, I'd say essential amino acids are a better investment. Right?
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Angelo Keely: Whereas if I'm talking to like the 22-year-old athlete and he's really trying to choose like, what's the better one for me or her, like male or female.
And they're already eating like really high protein and they love their protein shakes and they have like no real anabolic resistance and they're just trying to get that like extra edge in terms of like more reps and heavier weights. I [01:04:00] might be like, either one creatine's pretty good. I'm, I'd probably go with creatine, but I'd really say like both, yeah, for sure. Fiftys before, so it's it's just hard, there's, again, like you said, there's so many studies and there's so much information and there's so many products. In the end though, it wouldn't matter if that per, if my friend got their dad on either one of those, I'd be like, either one is a legit supplement.
Yeah. At least they're not trying to get their dad on something that's like totally bunk and that's not even gonna provide any value and just gonna take his money.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. So tell us about the supplement you have and then also why did you put the specific amino acids in there that you did? Because I think one of the main questions is, can I just go to the store and buy any essential amino acid thing,
Angelo Keely: Uhhuh?
That's a great question. So I think that the, I'll start like really high level. Yeah. Number one is the am the amount of the amino acids and the proportion to them really matter. So like, actually like how much leucine there is and how much iso leucine there [01:05:00] is. And that relationship is important.
So any brand that is proprietary and doesn't tell you the exact amount that's in it. I would not buy that product.
Dr Mike T Nelson: I wouldn't either. So because you have no idea.
Angelo Keely: You have no idea. And I'm not trying to make a claim overall. It's like I'm not as, I'm not as familiar. Like I'm sure there's like, someone goes to their acupuncturist and they're given some kind of like botanical mix of teas and stuff.
It's like, well how much of did it, it's like, I know, I don't know. In that case what's right. And maybe proprietary's fine, but with amino acids, don't buy proprietary blends. And so what I would say is that immediately is gonna take quite a few brands off the table. Oh yeah. Because that's what they do.
And they do it for a few reasons. One is for testing, it's much easier. Yep. So if I just say there's five grams in this, but I don't tell you how much of each one's in it. I don't have to hit a testing level. I can change it.
Dr Mike T Nelson: I can Oh yeah, you can change it in the background depending on supply, demand, cost, all sorts of crazy stuff.
Yeah. I can put in whatever I
Angelo Keely: wanna put in it. So, that's, that sucks for the consumer to [01:06:00] even, I think many people don't even know that. And then, other, I think that's, I think my sense is that's the general reason why most do it is because it's like, it just provides a lot of freedom.
'cause there's like, what's like the proprietary idea of why their thing is so perfect. It's like all the science is really publicly available. Like Yeah. If it's like these leaders in the field, or even, it's like all open published data, like for the NIH, for NASA, for DOD, like this stuff is out there.
It's not some hidden thing. No. So I just don't see much point in that. And then I think it really comes down to like, it is looking for the right proportions. And fundamentally there are studies that show as low as three grams of a total essential amino acids, essential amino acid solution is sufficient, is enough to stimulate protein synthesis.
That's like this study with the 60-year-old women that showed three grams of essential amino acids. Produced as much muscle protein synthesis as 20 grams of whey. So over six times the impact. What I would say though is like, that's really on the low end. This like three grams, I think [01:07:00] that's pretty low.
I think I'd be looking more at like the five grams serving and above in terms of what's reasonable. And so unfortunately that also takes off like some pretty legit, I think supplement brands that I like in general don't actually have that. They'll have like four grams or, they'll have like lower amounts.
I, I would look for something at least five grams and then after that it's kinda like you could take as much as you want of it. Up to, I think 15 grams if you're not in caloric restriction. And then I think, you wanna make sure they have all nine essential amino acids.
So some brands, I think there's a whole thing out there called MAP formula. Which is unfortunate. 'cause there's actually even, they had, there was a brand that was a MAP formula that was actually at the ISSN conference. I found very unfortunate that only they only have eight. Amino acids in the formula that like doesn't make sense.
And even if you were gonna exclude one, it would not be histidine. You would probably exclude. Yeah, I didn't
Dr Mike T Nelson: understand that. That never made any damn sense to me.
Angelo Keely: Well, here's the deal. There's it's a very non-traditional the map study. The masto amino pattern study is from one [01:08:00] specific researcher who's not actually even like an academic type researcher, I think was a medical doctor and did their own studies.
None of it's peer reviewed, but there's a whole business of the master amino pattern. Oh yeah. That I'll admit, like I used to think was more legit. And it was only through really dying research more and getting to know more of the lead research is like, no, that is like not a thing. So I think anything master amino pattern, stay away from that is not legit.
It's not validated, it's not part of this whole tradition of, peer reviewed studies and legit researchers from multiple institutions critiquing each other, arguing about what is true and what is not. So you wanna make sure there's all nine. And it's not just BCAAs. BCAs are three of the nine.
So they're good, they're important, but you need all nine. And then in terms of the proportions they can be tweaked in different ways depending on what you're trying to achieve. I think that there's a basic historical framework around starting with something that's like human skeletal muscle.
Although I think Arne himself would tell you like, that's not in the end, it's not human skeletal muscle that really works. Right? And I'm gonna get to, I'm gonna [01:09:00] get to what does work? But you start with that. If you were to biopsy human skeletal muscle, like what is, what are those proportions?
But then, and you start with that kind of as a base. Then on top of that, what was found was that, specifically if you are dealing with anabolic resistance. And so this is the, these are the cases of those 60-year-old women, or I think would be true too for like obesity type cases. And you're trying to restrict calories to lose weight or not obesity, just any type of like caloric restriction or, surgery type conditions.
When there's this anabolic resistance, you need more leucine, you need a lot more leucine. And what they found was that by increasing it to about 35 to 40% of the final formula, which is about doubling what it looks like in the human skeletal muscle proportions that just overcomes the anabolic resistance.
So when you look at, say the same person and there's not a study for the same person, but I think the research would generally show this, that like you take someone when they're 25 and you give them these eaas or you give 'em the way, the eaas are gonna have about three times the [01:10:00] impact.
That same person, if it's leucine enriched eaas. You gave them when they were 25, again, it's about three times the impact, but if you give it to 'em when they're 60, you're gonna have six times the impact from those EAs. And it's because that additional leucine is what overcomes the lack of the signal for the older adults.
So you definitely want more leucine if you are basically using it for, I think honestly, like the types of reasons why we're describing it in this podcast. Trying like, you're older, you're trying to lose fat. I would say for the performance side it's less important that the LE scene is so much more increased for the performance side, for young adults.
What's gonna be more important is going to be also that like the relationship of the BCAAs is more closely connected to their original proportion of that human skeletal muscle. And so that's why we did a Keon, we increased the leucine. To the 40%. We then also increase the other two BCAAs to maintain their [01:11:00] original proportion.
'cause without that relationship you can have some issues with performance. And then we also increase the amount of lysine, again, going back to these much older studies. That's been validated that the lysine is slower to get into the muscle tissue. So if you don't increase that lysine, what happens is overall it's going to throttle the overall muscle protein synthesis.
So it's basically human skeletal muscle increase ellucian to 40%, increase the other two BCAs to maintain their original proportions and increase the lysine in order to not throttle the amount of protein synthesis. That's the formula. It's, it's like, I think if you look at a lot of these, nasa, NIH these major studies that this is the basic framework of what's out there.
Sometimes maybe they add in some other amino acids. Sometimes things are slightly different. They've experimented with like, almost removing the tryptophan. And I would say in the case of ours, the tryptophan is very low. It's very low. And the leucine is very high. So, that's what I would look for.
And then after that, I think it comes down to what are your preferences? Like do you have other concerns around like clean label? Our brand [01:12:00] specifically is, it's tries to be as clean label as possible. Just meaning that we do, we try to, not involve unnecessary excipients, other additional ingredients that are necessary for like producing the actual product weird types of preservatives that aren't necessary.
And that kind of comes down to like, are natural flavors important too? Are you okay with artificial, we do natural flavors. And then similar like, are you okay with natural sweeteners or you, do you like, do you prefer artificial sweeteners? I think, it's up to you to choose what's what you want, but you don't really need anything else.
I don't think, it's like to get the benefits that I'm describing in this podcast. You don't necessarily need arginine. You don't need trine. And I'm not saying those aren't good, but you don't need 'em for what we've described. And so just following that science and like. Originally Dr.
Sue Ings is who helped us like, work on this, and she was part of some of those earlier studies and helped me get to know Arnie and just people in the community and just, and I must have read Bob Wolf's book like 10 times or something. I was just like following what's out there and doing what the science [01:13:00] actually says.
So I think that's how we came up with what we did. And it's not a secret. I think, you can I would look for that though.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And how was the taste? Because I've had other essential amino acids and they were pretty horrible. Like, I remember when you could just get essential amino acids as just a raw, so I ordered them as a raw, like no flavor, nothing just straight up direct.
And I thought, oh, I'll be, I'm a smart monkey. I try to dry scoop the thing and oops, I think he disappeared. Oh, he's back. I'm back. I'm not
Angelo Keely: sure what happened there. Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: So I thought I would dry scoop it and luckily I was over the sink in my kitchen, and as you realize when you do this one, they smell like cat piss by themselves or these particular ones I got.
And they're very, they don't mix well with water. And so you had this dry chalky flavor in your mouth, and I cough like white clouds like all over my kitchen, so I don't recommend that route.
Angelo Keely: Yeah. [01:14:00] So, his, yeah, I mean I think like people who are familiar with amino acids, they're not the best tasting raw ingredient and they're actually a primary source of sour, bitter, and umami flavor profiles in foods.
Yeah. Like amino acids are what carry these types of flavor profiles. So yeah they're pungent and strong. A couple things you can do to minimize that. So one is, and this is through my experience of sampling raw amino acids and going through the process of trying to figure this out, how to make a.
A, a consumer brand that like normal people will take not only bond builders, it's like, can I get my, like, will my wife take this? Yeah. And what is clear is that the plant-based ones taste a lot better. So you basically have two sources. You can get animal-based amino acids that are actually from breaking down proteins and things like duck feathers and human hair and other kind of weird sources, which are still a source of amino acids available in products that you could buy on the shelf.
Those like duck feather based ones, like they, they're definitely more pungent. Like they're they're just, they're, yeah. I don't know what
Dr Mike T Nelson: the [01:15:00] source of these were, but they smelled horrible. Yeah. They, many years ago. Yeah. No
Angelo Keely: they smell worse than their grocer. Like for sure. That's, I'm not saying the plant-based ones are perfect though.
The plant-based ones are basically fermented. So it's more like, in the Japanese are the ones that came up with this. Like you think about they've done, they've worked a lot with like, things like miso and soy and different types of ferma fermentation processes and it comes from beet sugars, et cetera.
And through that you're able to get the amino acids. Those typically have a much more, they have a much more mild profile than do the animal-based ones. But then after that, when you start to, try to, flavor of them. Really it's a, it's challenging. It is, it's very hard.
Yeah. And particularly if you want to, if you wanna work with natural sweeteners and natural flavor profiles it's, yeah. It's just, it's that much harder because if you get something like super artificial, you could just cover it up, just add tons of aspartame and
Dr Mike T Nelson: ACE K and whatever else.
Angelo Keely: Yeah. Yeah. It's like you just, you slam it. But then again, it's like, then it has that really strong flavor profile and honestly, you just work on it. And so what I would say is, I'm [01:16:00] always happy to say that, we work with flavor, a flavor partner that helps us develop it.
And they're working with flavors with lots of different brands, et cetera. And like, we are always way above average across the board for all drink profiles in terms of positive feedback. And I think it's just like, we've just worked on it, man. We've just iterated on it year after year and trying harder and, and just be willing to invest in more expensive ingredients to try to get the flavor good. And so, yeah, I'm proud to say we're, natural flavored and natural sweetened. And not in some like weird hidden way where there's like crazy weird things that like, it really is like, it comes from like natural essences and and natural sweeteners.
And it tastes, I like 'em, it's like, and I think another interesting thing too, you can find is, like we have like a lime, which tends to be the least sweet. And I'm more inclined toward that. Maybe like leaning a little bit more into like the sour, right? Yep. We have a mango that has just, has like this kind of more it's sweeter, but it's not quite as sweet, I'd say.
Like the watermelon is the sweetest [01:17:00] and the berry somewhere like in between. And people just find their spot. Like, there's people that swear by the watermelon. It's their favorite. It's the best for me. It's too sweet. I don't like, it's just like, I don't it's a bit too sweet and strong for me.
Like I, I prefer something a bit more mild. I'm curious, which ones do you like or do you take,
Dr Mike T Nelson: if I were to recommend it to someone, I would ask 'em, do you like more bitter ish things or do you like sweeter things? I would say if they like sweeter things, I would probably recommend the watermelon. If it's a little bit more bitter, I would say the lime uhhuh, I would say if they have no, they don't care across the board, I would actually do the Lyme, because I think with the amino acids it just it seems to fit better as weird as that sounds, because the amino acids themselves are just a little bit of stringent, and with that little bit of bitterness from the lime, it just, it doesn't feel quite as weird.
It's more natural.
Angelo Keely: Yeah, it's more, yeah. Yeah. Those flavor go together. It feels more natural pairing, I guess [01:18:00] you could say. Yeah. That makes sense.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, because I've used some other brands and I would say the taste of them is pretty God awful. Like, I trust what they actually put in the brand and they've got a good label on it, but.
It tastes pretty crappy.
Angelo Keely: That's a tough thing to put together. It's a tough thing to like figure out. It's not easy to figure out the science and then to figure out the formulation and then to get the whole thing made and then, oh, now you gotta get like, to where it actually like tastes good enough to someone will take it.
And they're not just only, you gotta, really you're taking these things for the benefits, but like, it's gotta be something that can fit into your daily life. But there's a lot to put together to, to make something like this work for people.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. That's awesome. And then we'll have a link where people can get it through here.
So I'll have a little note for that if people want to try it out and everything. Anything else I didn't ask you that I should have asked you?
Angelo Keely: I don't think so. That was a great conversation, Mike. I really appreciate your knowledge and background and ability to, yeah. Just have a more substantive dialogue around this kind of stuff.
It's cool.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And I think it with [01:19:00] technology is also super interesting. Like sometimes you get. Supplements we can make that are just like, eh, I, maybe it's useful, maybe it's not. But I think with essential amino acids, like you said, there's been a accumulating more and more data for different use cases, and especially for, cutting and anabolic resistance.
And there's a lot of really good data. Like you said, the ISSM paper is great. Like people can go look this up for it, don't just take our, word for it. And what I think is really cool is that also a convenience, and the last part too is just digestion. For sometimes people are just in a huge hurry.
Like I have some clients who literally won't consume anything for five hours before they train. So it's like, just take this, like even if you are running into the gym, I guarantee you can still consume this and train it. It won't affect your digestion because usually. That's a lot of times the biggest issue of Yeah, the timing.
Okay. But all I even some ways, some people can handle it fine. They don't have other issues. [01:20:00] Other people, it's like, oh my God, they drink anything before their training and it's just a disaster where this, I haven't noticed any issue with that either. So in terms of a pure convenience, especially for people who are super busy I think that gets underrated in terms of supplements of where they can be useful.
Angelo Keely: Yeah, basically it's this hyper, it's the equivalent of a hyper concentrated protein source.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Angelo Keely: That like won't cause, gi distress won't make you need to go to the bathroom, won't cause any of those issues, but that it's gonna help you to maintain that muscle during those extended periods when you're maybe not eating.
And definitely support training and definitely support, like that you're getting the most outta that training for muscle. So it's, I think it's a, it's like a slam dunk actually for that specific use case. Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Cool. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate all your time. I'll make sure to put a link there and people can check it out on their own.
I've been using them and yeah, they've been great. Like the taste is actually pretty darn good. And like I said, I was primarily mixing them during and even sometimes when I do [01:21:00] a longer fast, I'll use them a couple times, during the day or if my schedule gets just completely crazy and I'm one of those people running out to a training session.
I've done that a couple times and so far it's it's been working well, so thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Mike. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Really appreciate it. Big thanks to Angelo for coming on the podcast, discussing all things essential amino acids. Really appreciate him putting up with all my crazy questions and everything. If you wanna try the essential amino acids from Keon, I really like them.
They've been quite useful. Here. I, there's a link down below. Full disclosure, it is an affiliate link, so I do make a few shackles or something off of it. We have a deal set up where you can also save some de narrow yourself, so check that out down below. If you enjoyed this podcast, please hit the old subscribe [01:22:00] button especially on YouTube.
We're trying to get our subscribers up on YouTube, even though most people are listening to this on audio, on iTunes or Spotify or wherever. I hit the subscribe button, the download. Whatever stars you feel are appropriate, if you've got a few seconds, even a short review goes a huge way to helping us with distribution of the podcast.
So again, check out the essential amino acids. Thanks to Angelo for coming on. Appreciate you listening, and we will have much more coming up very soon. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day.
Speaker 3: Well, that's talent. An opera singer who tap dances and sings cowboy songs. I wonder if there's anything she isn't good at. Yes. Choosing what shoe to be on.
Speaker 5: This podcast is for informational purposes only. The podcast is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. You should not use the information on the podcast for diagnosing or treating a health problem or [01:23:00] disease, or prescribing any medication or other treatment.
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