On today's episode of the Flex Diet Podcast, I'm talking with sleep performance coach Angus Buckle. We dive into all sorts of topics around sleep and performance. Enjoy!
The Flex Diet Podcast is brought to you by the Flex Diet Certification. Go to https://flexdiet.com/ for 8 interventions on nutrition and recovery. The course will open again in June 2022.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Hey, what's going on Dr. Mike Nelson here back once again with episode 148 of the flex diet podcast. And today we are talking with the sleep performance coach, Angus Buckle, you can find him online at sleepprocoach.com. And we get into all sorts of things about sleep and performance.
As always, this podcast is brought to you by the flex diet certification. So far, I haven't taken any other sponsorships not that I'm against that per se. But if I get to that point, it would have to be something that would fit with the podcast and the audience. So, so far to date, I've turned all of them down. Part of that is because I want to interview people that I think are interesting and bring you grid information, you may have heard of some of the people or they may be relatively new. And this just allows me to kind of follow my own curiosity also.
So it's brought to you by the certification I created, which is the Flex Diet Cert. You can learn eight different interventions to maximize your ability or if you're coaching clients their ability, because it is a complete coaching system. For better nutrition and recovery. The flex diet cert will open again in early June. So that's coming up very soon, depending upon when you're listening to this, that's going to be June 2022, go to flex diet.com. For all the information you can get on the waitlist there, it'll put you on the daily newsletter, and you'll be the first person to know once it opens, might normally have some other cool bonuses for you then also, once you enroll, and on this round, I'll still be able to answer any specific questions you have about the entire certification.
Once you enroll, you can literally ask me questions about the modules, things you didn't understand how to put it into practice, examples you have with clients, pretty much anything that's related to it. Because my job is to help you understand the material and communicate it and therefore you can help yourself and help other people get better performance and recovery. And I'll do it without destroying your health.
So go to flexdiet.com. And my brains a little bit fried since I was at the Rec Conference this past weekend as I'm recording this. So that was great to see lots of people again, they're like Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, buddy, Dr. Stu Phillips, Dr. James Steele, Dr. James Fisher, good buddy, Andrew Coates, check him out on Instagram, you can find them Andrew Coates fitness. And it was just a wonderful time, I forgot how much I actually like going to conferences since I haven't gotten to too many in person. I will be at the ISSN conference again this June. It'll be about the middle of the month in Florida.
Hopefully this time, I will not be doing a trip to Costa Rica beforehand. So I won't be stuck in quarantine anywhere. So I apologize that I was not able to do my talk in Florida for the neural sports conference back in January due to that. So that's the update on what's going around here. And check out the coming up with Angus here we talk about sleep.
We also talk a fair amount about different ways to get better performance. What are some am and pm routines, you should consider a little bit about technology such as aura ring, heart rate variability, and pretty much all things that are going to help you get better performance overall. So check out this podcast here with Angus buckle of sleep coach.com
Hey, what's going on? Welcome back to the flex diet podcast. And today I'm talking with Angus all about sleep. So say hi. Hey, Mike. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it. Yeah, no problem then, judging by the accent Can you tell people where you're from? Because I'm sure people will ask otherwise.
Angus Buckle
So I'm from England, although my name is Scottish. So you know the UK we have the top part of the country which is Scotland and the kind of bottom part is England then has a place called Wales on the other side as well. So UK is split up into three main country so I've I've got a it'd be like I've got an American name but I live in Mexico.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Got it. And I'm guessing but did you get interested in sleep because the friends I have in the UK which granted this is And over generalization London area tend to complain about their cloudy overcast weather all the time. But maybe that's just whenever I talk to them.
Angus Buckle
It is true. Yeah, I've not actually been in England that often in the past 12 months because it is it's very inconsistent with weather and it's very cloudy. So I've you know, I've been finding the sun in other places
Dr. Mike T Nelson
what other places so
Angus Buckle
during lockdown I had enough of being locked in by the Prime Minister wasn't you know, we the gyms were sharp. And you know, a lot of I know Canadians Americans were locked down as well. So I managed to get a business visa to Bali and Bali was you know, pretty much open so you could go to gyms, you go to restaurants go to the beach. So I spent a few months there. Then from their body locked down, I was there for about six weeks, and they locked down.
So I was like, Okay, I need to find another place where the gyms are open, and managed to find a place in Spain New Yorker. So it's kind of like an island near Ibiza, sort of in a blur. So really beautiful there. So moved there for a while and then went to Dubai. And then back to the back to Spain for a little bit in Barcelona and my bear, then back to England for Christmas. And I've been back to Dubai. And I'm back in England now. So building up building up the air miles.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
How was Dubai I've heard interesting things not really negative or positive, but it's very different as what I've heard from most people.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, I think you probably related to Miami, it's a lot of peat ambitious people in one place. The you know, not that I'd eat a Mars bar. But you know, Mars Bars about four bucks or, you know, when he goes for shop store, you're going to find things that the cost of living is, is a lot more in other places. But the the tax benefits a lot of people are there for that. So they can kind of write that off and cost a living. But yeah, the it's interesting. I've been there for two stints and I ended up missing nature, because they do have lovely beaches, but there's practically no greenery. So depending on where you live, you could be in a high rise kind of block.
One place, I was staying on a 75th floor. And around me it was just desert and buildings. There's literally no green, no nature. And after a while it did start to get to me. So I actually moved next to a golf course. And it had birds and it had grass. So I found I found the nature and also stayed on a racetrack it's actually the biggest hotel in the world because of the premise. And yeah, found some green there as well.
So overall, it was great for you know, two like two months and then after that was kind of itching to to get back to the UK you know where I'm at now with spring just seeing so much green and all the nature around you know, you might if you hear some birds singing in the background, there's a there's a local fresh next to me that wakes me up at five in the morning singing so if you can hear some, some birds singing then that service was going on in the background.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I think that'd be weird because I've grown up my whole life basically in Minnesota, where there's trees and it's green. Granted, we've got six months of winter where it's direct opposite but at least in winter, it's relatively sunny and cold. But I think yeah, just I have friends who lived in New York City and some of them a couple clients they're still love it. But yeah, just the concrete jungle just feels weird to me like I just walked out and I just feel a lot more stressed and maybe that's just because I'm not used to it too.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, I think it's a great point and I think as a society we're probably over stressed and under recovered and the more I've looked into you know recovery and you know relaxing on the weekends things like you know going for a long dog walk getting into nature, I think I just feel mentally so much better.
Even just bird watching might you know, I probably laugh at this version of me as a younger version saying What was he talking about bird watching but just being out in nature distracts our mind and a lot of clients I work with kind of like free pm we disconnect from work and and go outside for an hour because I think the the average prisoner in America has more time outside for the average child because they have one hour outside a day and that you know the children have the option of the option hopefully to be able to go outside so see the more the more I spend in nature the happier I am and I when I was younger I had a kind of vision to live in a flat in central London. You know, that was the dream but honestly the concrete jungle isn't for me anymore. I'd much rather have that kind of disconnect. And you know nature for sure.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, a couple times. I've been in the past to London and it was great. I loved it. Other than the price This was stupid, expensive. Man trying to live there I think would be like, similar to New York City in the US where they had some good parks. Right? So you could you could go and find a park, it wasn't like it was impossible. But just sometimes wonder about the having options to do anything at any time. With super bright lights like Tokyo, Japan was the same way. It was cool to visit. It was amazing. But if I had to live there, yeah, you'd have to be very lot of effort to go find greenery and to relax, I think in those types of environments.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, yeah, London, I remember when I went to Thailand for three months, and I came back and it was my first day back into my corporate job. And I'd been living in a jungle and I've been around all these amazing people, you know, mainly Buddhists. So they're just really relaxed, chilled out people. The first day, I got off the train in London, very similar to focus, you know, jam packed with people in the mornings. And people were barging, me and like running to work.
And I just stopped, and I just let the whole platform pass me. And I was like, this is just a different world, because I went from a place where everybody was loving and caring to no one cared about anybody. And I was like, this isn't the environment, I want to be around anymore. And it's, you know, one train gets delayed in London Waterloo, and it builds and it builds an indigenous crowd, and it's just a horribly, it's very stressful, but but it is a culture is, you know, people are, are very stressed in London.
And it's, it's maybe a lot of self centered people as well. Because fair, you know, you compare it to the Buddhism and Thailand and go actually, these guys got it better. They might have as much money, but have they got more happiness? So you know, it's interesting.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, rather, my other perspective is you can take up kiteboarding, and learn to kite board and go play in the ocean and play in nature outside, which I think is always a good thing, whether you surf, mountain bike, whatever, I always encourage people to do some type of recreation. And if it involves a more complex motor skill, and you can do that motor skill outside, I think, even better.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, and mix it up, as well as something new for the brain, isn't it? So it's the motor skills. And I hear a lot of high performers talk about surfing, because it's a test really is quite dangerous thing to do. But it can also be very calming and relaxing at the same time. So yeah, definitely looking for, you know, team sports, I think are fantastic. And you know, I know you're a HRV specialist, and I tracked my clients HIV, we've used Oura rings just seeing people's HIV go up after a weekend of socializing, and a release of oxytocin.
And, you know, getting to disconnect from from life and the stresses of work. And just go and have fun for a little bit. And I think more people need to have permission to have fun. Because the comparison culture we're in, is we should all probably be billionaires driving Bentley's and have supermodel wives, right. But if we can actually just go and disconnect from our dreams for a day, once a week, and play the long game and success and kind of remove that comparison, I think is is something we all need to do more of. I've worked with so many people who are already successful business people, you know, 678 figure entrepreneurs, and they run extremely successful businesses, and then I can't have time off. And then we kind of look at how the HRV is going and what's going on for energy.
And so actually, we need to have a pitstop be like a Formula One car, or Formula One car can only win a race with a pre planned pitstop. So I'm saying we still want you to win a race, but I want you to have a pre planned break. And that break can be whatever you want to do. Could even be something like playing the piano, you know, talking about neurologically and actually, like doing something different, something creative. I think those kinds of activities are really fun for people. Because I think we all have a creative side. It's just whether we tap into it or not.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, I've done something similar. And I think recreation is a little bit of a easier jumping off point for people because especially some of the Supervisory clients I work with same thing if I said, okay, just take a day off. They're like, what are you crazy, I can't do that I've got all this other stuff going on. But if I convinced them, quote, unquote, to take an hour to learn to play tennis, go play golf, you know, go kiteboard, do something that's going to be recreation harder outside.
And then people will have done that. And I don't really care what they do. I think there's just that other part that allows your brain to think of new ideas, right? So the amount of time that I've been kiteboarding and thought of other ideas for business or articles or different things like that.
And when I worked on a flex died cert, I would come up with ideas and frameworks, and then I would lock myself in a flow chamber for 90 minutes to two hours just trying to remove as many other distractions as possible just to try to work through things I think is it's a hard thing. Sell upfront, but the people have done it. I can't think of a single person who came back and said, Oh, no, that wasn't worth it at all. So it's the it's a little bit of a hard on ramp.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, for sure. And, and the vibrometer worked with, they love data. So, you know, one of the other client came to me, you know, very successful. And, you know, I said, you know, potentially, we should look at having a day off before I'd finish the sentence. So just looked at me said, I cannot have a day off. So okay, cool. Let's look back around to this.
And then we're looking at his HRV. Oh, what can I do to improve it? Well, I said, Okay, you kind of got a seesaw is your stress is going up here if you're sympathetic, and you don't really have a recovery. So if we can engage in some recovery activity, like a massage, let's Let's book in a massage weekly, or a float tank, like you said, so maybe once a week, we could do a float tank, the second weekend of the month, we would do a massage for third, we would go to the beach, before if we would do something different.
And it was the competitiveness for the data is where they wanted to improve HRV. And therefore they kind of negotiated Yeah, I actually will go for one of these recovery activities, which is pretty cool. And then it did improve, and then ended up working less. But for most people, it's actually working less and making more money, because, like you were saying with the creative ideas where we can tap into that alpha brainwave state, and we can kind of get into that creative place, that can be really, really beneficial for ideas in our business and in life, because we have less thoughts.
And we can kind of start funneling the thoughts down, and then focus strategically maybe on one decision, or being the distracted brain, where you know, the left and the right brain are talking to each other, we go for a jog. I love going for a jog when I've got a big problem to solve, because I can distract my brain, but get both sides of my brain talking to each other, within 20 to 30 minutes, I might then get into it. And then boom, there it is, like I've managed to sort of solve a problem while I've gone for a jog rather than if I sat bit of a computer. It is too many for too many distractions, and it's not creative, where's the disconnect can actually really help tap into the creative side?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, in my perfect world, it's I've been able to do a little bit more over the past couple of years is a separate input and output. So if there's something I'm trying to solve, or product or something, I'll have a period of input where I read a bunch of the studies go through try to take in as much information as I can. And then in a perfect world, then I would go kiteboarding for a couple of weeks, I wouldn't even read a single thing at all, or I would read something that's completely different.
I think exactly what you were saying having that period of time where you still have to concentrate on it. But as you get better, it's not as much concentration. But you can't completely shocked out because it happened me a few times. We're like I'm riding along. Yeah, this is fun. Yay. And then oh, what did I have to do? Yes, yeah, boom, this horrific crash, because you checked out completely, which you know, has a consequence. So your brain then kind of learns it's even like driving for some people, which has its pros and cons. It has consequences.
Hey, Mike here, sorry about that. My internet just decided to take a hiatus. So no worries. Yeah, I was saying like, even kiteboarding, you can't be reduced, like that you can't just necessarily check out entirely because, you know, tend to crash. But I think being that just semi distracted state allows other parts of your brain to solve problems kind of subconsciously, too.
Angus Buckle
Yeah. And I think I think daily, you know, kind of looking at a morning routine evening routine, that can be a great opportunity for the Alpha brainwave state after waking and near the end of the day, and I think a lot of us reach reaches sort of adenosine capacity and a focus capacity in the afternoon.
And a lot of people kind of say that they feel like tired and maybe lethargic around sort of three to 5pm If you've been working since you know 7am And I think we're, we're potentially pushing ourselves all day where we reach capacity where that's a great opportunity for you know, to go skateboarding, right to go surfing to play the piano to go to go into nature for an hour to disconnect. And then a high performer still wants to get a bunch of stuff done, but to come back re energized and reinvigorated. You know, before this call, like she had a cold shower.
So, you know, it's a bit late for me to have caffeine but cold shower can be a great natural boost. And sometimes I'll use that if I'm not getting enough movement from cool. So there are loads of cool things we can do naturally and I know you're a big fan of that to you know, sort of reengage with energy to kind of, you know, speed up to we need to kind of have the disconnection again the Formula One car, have the pitstop to then be able to perform at our best because I think so many people continue to work later and later and later into the evening.
That nobody got more more productive than later they worked. So can we say, Actually your peak brain time, let's get a good night's sleep, let's really be able to be way more efficient in the morning, make less mistakes, and be able to get it done hopefully, like a lot faster. Therefore, we can actually spend less time working and more time surfing and skateboarding and spending time with family dinner with fun stuff.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, I found that for myself years ago, like my perfect time to lift was between one and three in the afternoon. And I find that it's a good break in my day. And even after that, it's almost like I get an extra couple hours to do email follow up, you know, stuff like that. I've, if I have to work all the way through the day, that afternoon period tends to be quite slow. So I would agree with that.
Angus Buckle
And are you are you a sort of, would you regard yourself as a morning likes to go to bed about kind of 10 Wake up around six?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Um, I, I found that I don't know if I am naturally. But I've kind of pushed myself that direction. Because I find that if I can get up earlier in the morning, I can usually get more stuff done, I can usually lift earlier and then go to bed earlier. Yeah, I tend to feel better.
I've done everything in between I was in college do my Masters, I would I'd stay up till one to three in the morning most of the time, which probably not the best idea, but made it work. Yeah. Do you think those Chrono types are sort of fixed in stone? Or do you think they are kind of plastic? Like they can be moved around more than what we realize?
Angus Buckle
Yeah, great question. So you know, when we're, the the estimation is that from 2165, we sink into our chronotype. So we'll be kind of settled into a morning locker and I tell you know, when we're an infant and a baby, we're sleeping 17 hours a day, then we're moving into the teenage phase can be sort of like, you know, can be 11 hours a day, right.
So if you're teenagers laying in bed, don't call them lazy, it's a very important mode for growth, right? their brain and their body. And it's why you'll kind of see a teenager and go, Oh, my God, how the hell they got six foot tall, in a very short period of time, because that growth is extremely important. And then as we get into adulthood, between seven and nine hours is the average, you know, the average kind of benchmark and the chronotype syncs from sort of 21 to around 65. And then from 65, till the end, we will be looking at maybe changing so you could switch it, but I kind of look at it. chronotype as optimization, I know, you're not necessarily a fan of that word, because it's hard to, you know, actually say, right? How did we optimize? Like, when do we ever reach an endpoint, but the chronotype is, I think genetics play a role. And it's about 20%. Right?
So you know, epigenetics 80%, if you're Arnold Schwarzenegger is best mate, you're probably going to be pretty jacked and go to the gym a lot, right? So you know, if that epigenetics and life experience can play a big role, but for somebody who's got children, does it even matter if you're a morning, or sorry, a night owl, because you probably wake up pretty early for your kids, right? So we kind of got a, we got a disregard for chronotype. For some people.
Chronotypes are really for high performance, who are in control of their time. And they can decide what time they start working when they finish. The other thing as well as what what serves you what sleep time serves you, because you might be a morning, right? But right now, you might be in a phase of life, where you're, you know, you've got certain classes you're teaching. And you're like, right, I've actually got to wake up pretty early. Whereas when they're done, there might be a new season of life where it's actually I'm gonna wake up much later. So I, I'm a big fan of the law of individuality is it no two entities are the same. And chronotype can help.
I've worked with so many people, we can sync anyone into any pattern we want. You know, ideally, we'd be awake in the day, and we'd be going to sleep at night. But for shift workers, I've achieved shift workers fantastic sleep, and they go to sleep at 8pm and wake up at 4am. And they've got better sleep from some of the daytime sleepers. So I think through consistency as Kenya rhythm can sync to any time. I was a night owl. So I used to work in London in the city. And I'd go to bed around midnight, I would wake up around kind of ATM and not want to get out of bed.
And I'd roll into work around 9am and begin my day. Now. When I got into my worst health, I then I was actually very successful in the corporate world. I just lost all meaning of life because it was just money. It was just money, money, money, and I was like, where is this going and got very lost and depressed. And it was at that point, I decided to really focus on what made me happy and it was actually coaching people. I mentioned earlier, I'd been to Thailand and when I was in Thailand, I'd learned more Thai. I was bullied as a kid so I kind of wanted to learn self defense. some martial arts and when I got back a lot of people asked for my help said, Oh my god, like, you know, can you help me get into shape kind of similar to I did.
So I kind of look back at that time and I thought, you know, what made me happiest is actually helping people. So I took an 80% pay cut against every everybody's advice for my family and my friends. Are you crazy? Like, how can you go and earn that money now, but I was like, is really what I'm passionate about. It's helping people. It's not necessarily about the money. And at that point, I started investing in my health. So I did a DNA test. And it said, I was a morning lock.
And I was like, There's no way like I love, I love being in a bar with a drink, partying, doing that kind of stuff, right. And then I started looking at the trends in sleep tracking data looking at. And I started seeing this kind of ladder up when you look at like asleep, sleep patterns, like a V formation, right, so we can see a 90 minute V formation and the ladder up in the morning is your body temperature, your records on adrenaline waking you up, kept seeing is 535 40 pattern. So Okay, keep seeing it. So then I started reverse engineering, I then started going to sleep way earlier. And when I woke up at 530, in the morning, I felt fantastic. I was like a different human being.
So I didn't need coffee for hours, I felt happier. I was more mentally alert. And I found so many more hours in my morning where I could really use peak brain time. And it was crazy. But now became very boring, because I'm going to sleep at like 9pm and evening, or I'm in bed at 9pm. So someone's got a birthday or you know a social event. I'm kind of like the first person here and the first one to leave. And not necessarily the funnest person for social events.
But it is really where I unlocked my best performance. And that's that's what I've achieved for a lot of entrepreneurs as well, is I think a lot of us through society, we've gone to sleep later. And later and later, we wake up later and feel worse and worse and worse, when actually through just good routines kind of starts with dinner. If we can have dinner and leave a free three hour gap minimum, between when we finished eating and going to sleep now that allows our body to be able to go to sleep for blood can leave our gut and go to our brain sleep.
And if we can just set that first kind of perimeter. Now people start falling asleep earlier and a lot of people I work with, it's just we're just gradually shifting backwards, backwards, backwards. But now they've got this peak brain time in the morning, they never knew they had like I didn't. And they're just done a next level of productivity. So the estimation in the population is 30% Morning larks and 70% nighters. If you like, I can ask her a question.
Because it's something I do on some of my presentations to your audience, they can kind of without a DNA test, they can probably determine it if you don't know, yeah, what's the question? So if you just grab a pen and paper, or you know, a document, so we'll go through free questions. And then we should, some people will be all over the place. Some people have a clear definition. So hopefully, you'll be one of those clear definition people. But the first one would be if you were to go to the gym and break a world record.
So your best, your best bench, your best deadlift, whatever it might be, would you choose a the morning, be the afternoon or see that evening? So A, B, or C. So if you had to break a world record your best performance in the gym, and if you're more of a runner, you know, kind of think about sprint, or like if you're an endurance athlete, what time of day would you do so it'd be a B or C morning, afternoon or evening? Second question is if you have to write a 2000 word article in your favorite magazine, what time of day would you choose? Would you choose a B or C? So morning, afternoon or evening? And the next one would be what is your favorite time of day? Is it morning, afternoon or evening? So you should have a B or C So Mike, what did you get?
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I got B, A, A
Angus Buckle
Yeah, awesome. So you're definitely a morning lark. So we can see a pretty good inclination for that. The afternoons your favorite time of day was that
Dr. Mike T Nelson
I have morning was my favorite time of the day. Oh, so it was the the best for performance.
Angus Buckle
All right. Oh, cool. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, so some people are AAA. So we just know very morning like you don't need a DNA test. It's your favorite time of day. And some people are more evening. Now the gym performance is very interesting because I'm the same. So I go around 3pm. And our body temperature reaches a certain point where actually peak performance can be found there for a lot of people I've best muscle, muscle building ability and cardio.
Cardio output at that time as well so that there's a good pocket of time in the morning for testosterone release for the morning lock. That's great for peak brain time, or if you wanted to do maybe 100 meter sprint and push yourself and something like that. But for most people, we're going to find that kind of afternoon period is best for workout.
And if you're performance orientated, that could be 30 percent you leaving on the table if you to do the workout at the wrong time of day, some people just want to get it done in the morning. But if it's about performance, then really the afternoon for morning larks are more of an evening time would be for the night owl. You know, they're the kind of people in the gym at 6pm. lifting heavy weights, like I don't want to lift a 6pm or 6pm, I'll definitely be in the middle.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, I've done that before. Like I said, when I was in doing my Masters, I would lift at 730 at night, right, because I found a head class all day had a bunch of responsibilities have dinner, a couple hours after dinner. But then like I said, I would go to bed between one and three in the morning. So I found my evening was the only time I really had available.
But that also allowed me to work later. And I think I realized I use that to kind of push everything later in the evening. Because even now I played around with it. Like if I lift at even five or 6pm and I don't get no caffeine don't get real amped up or anything, just just a normal strength training routine that I would do. My sleep is just not nearly as good. For three, four or five hours, it's usually trying to get to sleep as a little bit later. And then quality of sleep, I've noticed is quite a bit less.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, and the the kind of talked about dinner being the setpoint to think about, but it would actually be working out because your body temperature in the morning is going to rise to wake you up. So that natural kind of 530 I was talking about my body wants to wake up 535 40. So the body temperature gonna rise in that rhythm in the afternoon, we actually have a little dip.
So that could actually be a hardwired opportunity to nap. So it's debatable that, you know, if we look at places like Greece who have siestas, they actually took away naps and heart attacks went up by quite a lot things like 20 30%. So there is an argument that naps are actually good for us. And the Greeks and Spanish aren't lazy, they're fit. They're doing what the body wants to do. So after that dip for body temperature increases all the way to the end of the day, and then dips, when it dips, that's actually going to instigate our sleep.
And if it doesn't dip, we're going to stay awake. And I think, you know, just people knowing the education for your audiences is there needs to be four hours between when you finish your workout, and actually going to sleep. So it's a tough one. Because if you finish working out at 6pm, well, let's say you work out six, you finished at seven, you're then going to probably have a protein shake, and then you're going to eat, so maybe you'd finish eating at 8pm.
And if you tried to go to sleep, kind of 10 or 11, it'd be pretty tough for the food, and also the body temperature. So giving that four hour buffer from the end of the workout to go to sleep. And then a free hour buffer from food to go to sleep. If you could give more from food as well. It'd be great if give five hours. But you know, probably like your audience.
And when I first heard free hours, like how the hell am I going to do that I go to work, I get back and then I've got to have dinner like how can I give three hours? Where do I find the time? But essentially, it comes to preparation and just shifting everything a little bit earlier. Can you maybe something I do for myself or my client is I make the same thing for lunch and dinner. So a batch make that and then dinner can be quite quick. And therefore I can kind of get into a bit earlier. So is it a morning like I have dinner at five? Which people look at me like a very strange person. But that's where I know I kind of owe people
Dr. Mike T Nelson
early bird dinner, right? Yeah.
Angus Buckle
Did I Yeah. I was actually on a on a date not long ago, and it was 1030 at night and I yawned and the lady was like oh my boring you. I'm like, I'm really sorry, I'm normally normally asleep at this point. And quickly got an Uber home. And that was the end of it. And I was like yeah, I need to go for lunch date. So it just shows our body when we we get consistent.
You know, we're going to want to do the same things at the same time. So it is boring, that part is boring, but it really is where peak performance can rise back consistency. And if we can kind of aim for sort of 90 95% then we can really get you know a lot done through through our best brain performance our best physical performance and choosing time that matters so so yeah, it's not always clear cut with a chronotype so I thought I was a night owl.
When actually my favorite time of day now is morning for sure. So the genetic report did help me uncover that. I don't think I'd have seen that trend and linked to the dots otherwise or something with the DNA I kind of says it removes the guesswork. So we can kind of look at and pinpoint those, you know kind of lifestyle, but then also factor in DNA as well.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
For mental performance, what do you think is like the maximal time like duration of time, you can be close to peak performance, like how many hours per day that you could do day in and day out? I have my own little thoughts on this, but I'm curious as to what you think.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, peak performance. I I've I liked the morning so far. I was to wake up at 530, do a morning routine for myself for about an hour. So like my brain just to kick in gradually. And then I'll kind of get into, you know, deep work, which a lot of people think about. I would say, personally, I can find my take brainer for two to four hours, that there has to be intervals, it cannot be concurrent.
And I think our attention span is about 20 minutes long. So if we're actually if you're studying something, I'd want to let you know really kind of go for maybe 20 minute portions. If you're working for an hour, definitely a 55 minute break, for sure. So just five minutes of taking away from the screen. So I think, you know, having those intervals could be a toilet break could be water, just getting off the screen, you could actually even go for a quick nap, because you could retain information better after starting a nap and which is pretty cool.
So yeah, I think we're all different, but peak brain time, I think, I think really, it would be sort of between two and four hours. And then after that, I kind of have to get to lunch is a period of time, have a balanced lunch, avoid carbohydrates, because that can slow you down to kind of high fat type proteins. Then in the afternoon, switch gears into creative work, I could still do some high processed brain stuff in the afternoon. But I'll switch gears into client calls into speaking to new clients into kind of creative, bent into the gym.
After the gym, I will get back and do some light stuff, social media, you know, interviews like this, it's not my peak, I'm not in my peak brain time right now. And then I'd start winding down. So I kind of know I've got a small amount of time to get the main things done on in the morning, like eat frog, a lot of people say. So for me between two and four hours, but with intervals, and I just know, in the afternoon in the evening, my brain is not the same. So that's kind of how that's how I look at
Dr. Mike T Nelson
it. Yeah, I mean, my guess especially over the years is like four to six hours is like pushing it right. I think most people are probably pretty similar. So it was interesting. You said like two to four. Because I think there's this sort of myth that, oh, I can be super productive, like 12 hours a day, every day. And maybe there's some mutants who can do that.
But I, when I've looked and seen what people actually do, they have 12 hours of just being distracted for like 10 of the hours. So they have this illusion that they're productive because they were on Twitter, and they're on social media, and they check their email and they wrote an article and they proved an article, they went to the gym, and but it just seems very distracted, which I think you can probably do, but if they're solving a task or writing an article doing something creative, like so I call that like, Cal Newport has like the concept of deep work, like doing something that's in depth, I think the time that people can spend doing that is much more limited than what they think that it is.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, cuz you know, Mark Cuban said, one of the biggest skill sets you can have is how you learn. Because if you can learn it, actually retain it. And I was the you know, 52 books a year guy like, oh, yeah, read a book on Audible 1.5. Right, book finished book finished book. Then someone asked me a question. And as a basic, and I didn't know the answer, as I'm not retaining the information. So what I realized is I'd study a subject with notes, I would study the same subject again, review the notes, and I'd studied the third time without needing to take notes and actually retain it.
And it was only the third time I really got it. Now, I'm not ever the smartest guy in the room. So I, you know, I'm sure an Elon Musk might just crack it on one. But I feel that mastering information takes repetition, deliberate practice to actually go over and go over if you actually really want to know, the foundations of something. So I'm a big fan of repetition now through, you know, joining the impatient crowd of 52 books a year. It'd be very interesting to pick someone's brain on one of those books and a simple fact and, or a simple principle of the book and say,
Could you explain that to me and I might be a bit like I was so so yeah, it's it's interesting. You say about distraction. I, if I hear a notification, I'm like, you've got a problem, because you're not present with me. And I've been on schools with people and I was very surprised how successful we were and I had notifications. And of the day I tested 124 hour period without notifications. If you don't do this, I'd highly suggest it.
You realize I realized how addicted to my phone was looking at it. I haven't looked at it for two minutes and then looking back at it after an hour or an hour I wonder if someone's replied, but I was so much happier when I blocked out time in the morning in the midday around lunch and in the evening to check so I was free in Between, because you might just go to the elevator to go downstairs, oh, let me check my phone, oh my god, there's a fire oh, I need to put out on my like, there's gonna probably be a problem that needs to be solved from the information, you've got new information, there's a problem, and now your brain is gonna think. And that's where we get into overwhelm.
So we're distracted, and we're overwhelmed. And we're not present. So if we can find time to disconnect, find time to do those kinds of small things. So like I said, this peak brain time, but what do you do with your low yielding tasks? You know, can we just block out low yielding tasks and just get those done. And I think from productivity standpoint, it's, you know, I've helped a lot of people with their sleep, we give them better sleep, we give them better energy, then we go into productivity, and we block time.
And now you can just finish the day and actually not pick your phone up when you're with your wife or your husband. And you can just be present with them. And when you go to work, you can be present with them. Because there was a study from some of the world's most successful people with Henry Ford. And people like that and said, one of their biggest assets was they could get home from work and completely disconnect.
And when they were in work there and work and when they got home, they could have a family life. So I think having that disconnect is vital, especially want to stay married or, or keep your partner you know, you got to be present with them and give them that quality time.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, you mentioned some am and pm routines, like what do you kind of do and what are some things you would suggest for both of those,
Angus Buckle
some morning, I kind of have free free staples, and you know, habits to kind of stack these three together as a starting place. So number one would be light. And I know you've talked about this, I loved what you said about watching the sunrise would be fantastic.
So if we can kind of let the sun hits our face without looking directly at the sun. And it depends where you are in the world, how much you know how much light is actually been emitted from the sun, but could be sort of anywhere from two to 60 minutes, you know, just to get outside would be great. So a dog walker could coincide with that. So you get movement at the same time.
The second one is water, we lose an estimated liter of water for dehydration, just by breath while we're sleeping. So the first thing would be to rehydrate. So in the first 60 minutes, get one liter of water in your system. And the third one would be to journal and to plan your day. So you can actually do all three together, which is why habits start from a client. So the first habit would be to, you know, to when you wake up, actually just turn on the lights in your house, just get as much light as possible. On the way to the kitchen.
Now pick up large glass of water or maybe some small ones, and you know, exactly perfect. So we've got the water, then go sit down at a desk. Now, if you've got sunlight outside, fantastic, go sit outside with the water. Without directly looking at the sun, let the sun hit your face. And, you know, in England, I kind of find about 20 minutes is good for me. In Dubai, I found that five minutes was good for me so sweating profusely. But then in a winter or a feminine environment without sun available, it's the artificial light. And I'll probably need about 60 minutes for that because it's nowhere near as powerful as for some, there's a free app you can use called Lux, we can actually see, you know the lumens that are actually been emitted from light, which is pretty cool.
So you can check that out and test it because I had, you know, a very different amount in Dubai versus artificial light. So if you are inside, you could be drinking water. Like I've got a big light box looking at me now. And I could journal whether that's written or like with pen and paper or it's on a computer, and I'm just addressing my thoughts on finding gratitude. I am saying what's on my mind today is something bugging me from yesterday. Have I got to solve a problem today?
What are my intentions today and just download my thoughts and kind of have in that chat. And you know that that journal could last me two minutes because I'm just on it feel good. Or it could be could be two pages who have really addressing a problem. And I have to shout out Brian Grasso and Carrie Campbell for journaling because they got me into it. And it's been instrumental for myself and my my clients. I was very resistant, but it absolutely changed my life because it's it's the morning check in with myself so I can turn up to the world in in alignment.
I'm thinking, I'm not sure about that problem I gotta solve. I've got some sort of idea of clarity on it or a way I'm going to solve it. So there'd be my free things in the morning. So it'd be it'd be light water and journal plan your day. When we get to the evening, it would start I would actually say after dinner would be the habit that I'd build versus you finished dinner. I would now brained up from a day. So I do a to do list. So I plan for half an hour. I plan my day the next day and just say right what have I got on? What are the urgent things I need to think about tomorrow?
Having an urgent and non urgent list of really, really cool productivity is something I've sort of I discovered, so I'll plan my day, but I'll bring up anything on my mind. Now that brain dump, again, could be conflict could be a business idea that I don't know how I'm going to solve it. But what I'll do is I'll plan when to solve that. So let's just say I've got a conflict to my business. I'm going to say, right tomorrow at 10pm, sorry, tomorrow at 10am, I'll have a meeting with my team on that conflict. Or I'm going to block out half an hour to solve that tomorrow.
Now, my subconscious is that Angus, cool, we got that covered, we're going to cover that tomorrow. And I think a lot of sleep disturbances happen around three 4am. And people say I've got a race in mind, or they couldn't get to bed was, which is actually the biggest reason for sleep disturbances overthinking. So that journal after dinner, helps you do the brain dump from the day, and then plan the next day. And now you can go to bed with hopefully more of a clearer mind. So you can get sleep, then stay asleep as well. So I think that's not discussed enough, I wouldn't do right before bed because it's too thought provoking. I do it after dinner and go right?
Oh, you have any bananas on my shopping list. If you do that an hour before bed, it'd be like couple of minutes for bed. All right, that's gonna disturb you. So, you know, that's what I do is number one is the brain dump after dinner. Number two, I'd start reducing right? In my environment, and I think two hours is the sweet spot for most people. Now, it's a struggle with most high performers to say two hours, and I used to think this, I could get so much done in two hours, right?
It's, we're now getting into you walking into the bank at night, and you're gonna go pay some money into the cashier. And it's the investment of a good night's sleep. So if we can kind of say, you know, for me, I think you'll probably similar as about 8pm. I know that this is the time where I need to have a kill switch mentality of all social media, or technology.
And I'm gonna go relax and wonder. So you could do whatever you want, in your evening routine, you could watch a movie, as long as it's not, you know, Vikings or something, a blood, comedy, entertainment would be good. And then, you know, winding down from sort of eight until 10. And we're reducing light. So you can use blue blockers, if you're watching the screen. Last call, you know, just don't be too close to screens. And so main thing about two meters away would be great. So you've you've sort of done that.
And then I would incorporate the advice earlier on, is just look at when you finish working out when you finish eating. And you want to give four hours between when you finish working out three hours between when you finished eating. So to kind of put that all together, the first one would be planning your workout time, if it's in the afternoon in the evening. So you've planning a four hour break, then planning your dinner time.
So there's a three hour break, after dinner, planning that brain dump for the next day, block it in your diary for 30 minutes to plan your next day, maybe longer, you might need an hour depending on what your job is. Or if you got a PA whatever you might have planned the next day don't outsource it up because you need to actually bring it up yourself. It's not something you want to automate, and then starting to reduce like, and I think that would be where I'd go.
That there'd be the main things that can work really, really well. But I don't hear enough people talking about the journal. And maybe it's because of a Brian and Carrie link. I'm more pro journaling and talking about the brain dump because the biggest disturbances overthinking. So is that preventable? Yes, it is, you know, we have control of our thoughts. Therefore, we can control our thinking it's just most people aren't willing to address their thoughts. But downloading them I think is a is a nice way to do it. Because we can plan the next day.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
No, I love that I, I find that journaling or I just call it like a brain dump or planning. So I tend to in a perfect world would do a brain dump. Like you said at the end of the day, sometimes it doesn't happen till the next morning. And then in the evening, try to plan okay, what have I got going on tomorrow? What are my top objectives?
What are the deep work things I have to do in the morning getting that set up. So now I'm like working on a book. So the first thing I would do get up do a little morning routine of what I'm doing. I'll do a little cardiovascular routine, some red light, go outside, meditate for a while. And then the first thing I do as soon as I open my computer is riding on that. And then I'll have whatever else goes on during the day. But ideally, that's all planned out the day before.
And I'm sure you found this same thing too is like I try not to do this. But sometimes it happens when I'm traveling. Like if I check email first thing in the morning. It's like someone just short circuited my brain. It's like it's this weird perception of like you're being productive. That's like everybody else's agenda of stuff. And then I find if I have to get back to writing or some type of creative deep work thing after that. I can do it but it's just seems to be a lot harder because my brain is already going down 52 Different rabbit holes of other stuff already.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, it's very interesting. point out, I think, you know, more of a more people I've worked with, it's sort of been a common theme recently when I've been traveling. I can't wait to get back into my routine is what not, I can't wait to get back home, but my routine because the brain knows what's familiar. And there's so much less to think about. So you've got your routine dialed in at home, it's kind of taking care of right but when we're traveling, there's so many new things to think about. We might wake up a little bit later, we might not have a great night's sleep. The downside of Dubai is supercars. So you got the supercars screaming around like three 4am in the morning, waking me up, right, so I've got earplugs, but even in some of these very expensive cars are very, very loud. So you know, you've not had a good night's sleep now in the morning.
You know, a lot of people might say, oh, you know, we should all think positive every day we should be go getters. But if you've had a bad night's sleep, your brain is going to be more driven negatively. You know, we already are driven negatively if we had a good night's sleep, so let's put in a bad night's sleep. Now we're dopamine seeking even more we go I wonder if that person replied to that email. I wonder if that deal was dropped in?
I wonder if my wife messaged me to make sure she's okay. Right. And now we're in that mode. And we we go into that negotiation where we go, actually, should I just pick it up? And you might pick it up? Before you've realized the consciousness of subconscious being five seconds apart? You might suddenly be there and go, What am I doing? I'm scrolling. And I actually find myself doing that sometimes I'm, I have a kind of free thing disk. And I realized I'm scrolling. And like, what am I the way my distracted brain was seeking that kind of dopamine.
So yeah, I'll be honest, sometimes I've, I've succumb to that, where you just suddenly in Gmail, and like, you know, you're often some tangent. But your reaction time can actually be similar to being drunk and your brain at that point, like waking up and sleep inertia. You can misinterpret what somebody says, you could save a wrong thing. And probably not going to be the best version of you replying to that email. So yeah, kind of winning that battle cold showers a good example where I've been doing for years every day, but probably 70% of the time my brain goes anguish, we just skip it today, you know, split cold outside,
Dr. Mike T Nelson
she reminds us that about 99% of the time
Angus Buckle
that you win the battle every day, right? Yeah, exactly. So that's what we need to do more we need to win the battle between our personality and our pre wired survival system. And that's where we kind of push through as say, Should we just have that doughnut? Should we? Should we check that email? But we just need to go as the driver for reason not to do it? And I think that's the that's the rebuttal.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Yeah, have a freezer, I've converted into cold water immersion in my garage so I can get in there. It's currently set at like 42 degrees Fahrenheit. I'm doing it since right after COVID. So we're coming up on almost two years, most time when I'm at home. And even then it's still the Battle of Never once have I woken up going yes, I'm so excited to do it.
And that point, you know, right before you turn the nozzle, or right before you get in, it's just your brain fighting yourself going. I don't want to do this stupid idea. It's the the limbic part of your brain is like we could die if we're left in the air, cold water could kill us, which could but you know, your safety margin is really high. And then I always think of, it's the professor prefrontal cortex that has to talk the other part of your brain into doing it. It's like, No, we're going to do this.
And if I'm really tired and not feeling it, my goal then is I just have to get in, get my breathing under control. And at that point, I can decide to get out if I want, right? It's just you have all these little deals you make with yourself of oh, okay, I just have to write one page or write a newsletter or read an email. Okay, and then maybe I'll check my email.
And then once you finish that, you're like, well, maybe I could do something else. Right. So you kind of have this sort of renegotiation with yourself all the time, which I think everybody does. And for years, I thought I was just a crazy person until I realized that this is common for almost every human.
Angus Buckle
Yeah, yeah, I think the more I've learned about the brain, and it's still honestly, scratching the surface. We're all just very, very similar in the way we work the way we think. Something something I did to get into cold showers because you know, it's unfamiliar to start with, isn't it?
Honestly, like you, I've watched people freak out. And what I say to clients is right, do share it your normal temperature. And then at the end, we'll go 10 seconds for colds, you just get the door and go all the way before you can think about it. And I I will negotiate myself if I pinched it. I'd probably start negotiating so I just go boom before I can think about it. 10 seconds.
Now the next day, I didn't have a turn now the first day you'll be freaking out and you'd be oh my god. It's cold water right next day be similar. But when you get to like the fifth day of a sick day, you start loving them. And you start going oh my god, I've got this feeling afterwards a feeling on fire. So what I did was because I was freaking out started actually turned my boiler off so the only option was full cold.
And I did that for a month in December in England. which is which is pretty cold, that's truly but then I had no option so I took away the option and the negotiation out of that and that's how I got into them but now I'm ADDICTED I'm always disappointed if I go to a country and it's not cold so Spain might not have a cold shower Bali didn't have a cold shower to buy some of some of the hotels were cold back in England is full cold some love love and being back in England for the for the cold immersion
Dr. Mike T Nelson
last part real quickly and then we'll wrap up is aura ring you said you like aura ring use it for tracking, shout out to her pretty apt or I've used it for a long time I like it. What are kind of like the top things you briefly look at? Or for sleep?
Angus Buckle
Well, actually, I'll, I'll say the most important metrics I look at on to do with sleep. So the first one is body temperature deviation. It's actually why the NBA signed up with or was to track their players during COVID. So they could actually see their body temperature increase.
So I performer I some bad sushi and my body temperature went up by 2.2 in the app, which is you pretty ill when he got to that point. But what we can do is we can track we can see a precursor for somebody who's about to get ill or who is overtrained. Right. So if you've got an aura ring, and you're kind of looking at the metrics, I'd say naught point four would be something to take some consideration. Also, as you're HIV down, and you also feel feel is the most important thing, feeling is 80% 20% of the data is really, really important.
So the legend says naught point four on a Monday, the next day is naught point seven, okay, we're probably on the way to some form of illness, your body is overheating. So do we need to double down on some recovery? Do we need to move leg day from that day to maybe later in the week, so not skip it, but let's just change the day we're gonna get it done. And you know, now we're at one, we're probably at that point. But if we could get some vitamin D, and we could get some vitamins, and we could kind of prevent illness, it's pretty good for business not to get ill.
And I've from tracking with aura. I wasn't ill, for I didn't have any sort of illness for three years. And it was made, I definitely credit vitamin D. You know, I think that's really fantastic for helping minimize and avoid getting ill, I'd improve my sleep, and I'd improve my lifestyle and wasn't really drinking alcohol and getting good sleep, not overtraining. So you know, there are loads of factors in there. So body temperature deviation is fantastic.
And then it'd be HRV would be the second one. Because now we can see your ability to perform every day. And then we can really start improving that number. And you know, people just noticing you feel better. So if I could just have blinkers on and just see two things, I would look at temperature deviation and HRV. But for anyone that's tracking with aura, or their sleep tracker, go into your data and look at that biological wake up and see if you can see the trend. So it's kind of like a ladder, you know, in the morning is going to wake you up.
So I'd look that biological trend. And that you want to reverse engineer you have a unique amount of sleep that your body will need. So are you a bodybuilder? Are you an NBA athlete who sleeps for, you know, 12 hours a day? You know, are you a, you know, nine to FiVER, who works out once a week or a nine to five or works out five times a week, right. So all those variabilities will depend on how much sleep you need. But if you can look at your, your biological wakeup trend, ideally over four weeks, 12 weeks would be great.
And then I'd reverse engineer about how much sleep you might need. So that's kind of where I'd start because we can you know, most people are going to sit around seven and a half. And just one last thing on aura is don't play the game on their sleep score because you're an individual and are basing your on the human average, and you're not an average person. So I have a client who's getting 60s and 50s every day and they were like oh my god Angus, like what's going on is very successful person as well.
We got the DNA tests back and a baseline their body needs under seven a night. And then we looked at the aura data and we're getting six and a half hours of quality sleep. And I'm like you this is this is what you want to achieve, don't play their game. So you know, just be wary of their their score. And just be looking at improving your baseline. So an hour and a half for seven, seven hours, an hour and a half an hour and a half deep sleep for around a seven hour sleep session would be fantastic. So just kind of looking looking at that.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And we'll have to have you back on and maybe we'll do a deep dive into aura and temperature and maybe lucid dreaming and a bunch of other weirdo stuff too, because I have lots of questions.
Angus Buckle
That's very exciting. I'll tell you what we could do, because I've got over a team so I can actually plug your data into Oura. And I can record all of your history and we can look at all your trends. So So, if you want to be awesome, we could actually share that on screen and, you know, look at your trends and see, see where things are going. And you can no doubt, give me some tips and HRV. With that as well. It should be pretty cool.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Awesome. And where can people find more about you?
Angus Buckle
So the current website is sleepprocoach.com. We're actually in the process of redoing it. So it just kind of explains what we do have or our DNA testing. And we also have a course for coaches and we help educate them on sleep as well, just because it's, it's an industry where, you know, so many personal trainers have got really no knowledge on sleep, and it's such an important thing to to be able to help their clients out. So I'm on Facebook Angus buckle, you can you can drop me a message.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, I would highly encourage everyone to check that out. I know you've got a lot of great information there and really appreciate it. And we will definitely be in touch and have you back on. Thank you so much.
Angus Buckle
Thanks, Mike. Really appreciate it.
Dr. Mike T Nelson
Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast, really appreciate it. I know you've got tons of different options with everyone and their brother and their dog creating a podcast now. So thank you so much for listening to this.
Big thank you to Angus for coming on here and helping us out with sleep and productivity and everything else, make sure to check him out at sleep coach.com It's got a lot of great information there. And if you can leave us a review, or four stars or five stars or I don't know, whatever I can tell how much I know about this, whatever the maximum stars are.
Or if you don't think we deserve any stars leave that to I don't care. But leave us some feedback because that helps us get other people on to the podcast and gets better information into the ear holes of a lot other people. So thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate it. And we will be back with you next week. Once again.
As always, we're brought to you by the Flex Diet Cert. So go to flexdiet.com. It will open again in early June 2022 You'll be able to get on the waitlist there for eight interventions to maximize your body comp and performance all without ruining your health is primarily geared more towards nutrition and recovery. So all things like protein, carbohydrates, fats a little bit about keto intermittent fasting. NEET such as walking, so non exercise Activity Thermogenesis, walking, twitching, moving around, exercise, sleep, micro nutrition and much more.
I'll put in a complete system that makes it easy to apply to yourself or to your clients themselves. So go to flex diet.com You'll be able to sign up there on to the waitlist. Thank you so much. We will talk to you all next week.
Outtake
What are you doing? I dropped my gum and Lady. Would you toss my gum up could have taken it out of the wig first.