Mitochondrial peptides may be promising, but they cannot replace the aerobic base that makes their effects measurable. Dr. Dwayne Jackson explains AMPK and mitochondrial signaling, what MOTS-c and SS-31 can and cannot tell us, and why fitness data, training, and recovery come before any experimental compound.
Dr. Dwayne Jackson is a health specialist, medical educator, scientist, and entrepreneur with a PhD in neurovascular physiology.
Mitochondrial peptides may be promising, but they cannot replace the aerobic base that makes their effects measurable. Dr. Dwayne Jackson explains AMPK and mitochondrial signaling, what MOTS-c and SS-31 can and cannot tell us, and why fitness data, training, and recovery come before any experimental compound.
Expect to learn how aerobic fitness supports strength and Strongman training, why lactate clearance and conditioning can become the rate limiter, what AMPK and mTOR signal, how kidney disease changed Dwayne’s perspective on aerobic capacity, where the evidence for MOTS-c and SS-31 is limited, how to design a more useful N-of-1 experiment, and why training, nutrition, recovery, COAs, and third-party testing come before experimental compounds.
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Episode Timestamps:
[00:00:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Hello There he is
[00:00:09] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: How you doing?
[00:00:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I am good. How are you?
[00:00:13] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: I'm doing very well, thank you.
[00:00:16] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Very nice.
[00:00:16] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It's a sunny day in the rainforest, so hey.
[00:00:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, that's good. Is it pretty warm up there or?
[00:00:21] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It's, uh, we get moderate temperatures here. Like, it's, we don't get m- much, like we don't, we probably don't touch 80 degrees Fahrenheit here.
[00:00:29] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, okay. Yeah That's kinda nice.
[00:00:31] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But it's nice because our swings aren't like Ontario where it's, you know, 30 degree Celsius, 60 degree Celsius from cold to hot, you know?
[00:00:40] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. It's
[00:00:40] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: about, we have, we have maybe, maybe a 10-degree swing that's not very, it doesn't get cold here, it doesn't get hot here.
[00:00:46] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, that's not too bad at all.
[00:00:47] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, it's like a North California type thing.
[00:00:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, nice.
[00:00:51] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, yeah. But it's, it's unique, right? It's just the, uh, the ocean currents that, that create that here. N- like, we have palm trees and fruit trees and all kinds of shit all year round, so it's-
[00:01:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, wow ...
[00:01:00] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: yeah. It's, it's not, it's not Canada-like. We'll call it that.
[00:01:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like the California Canada.
[00:01:05] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Exactly, yeah. Yeah. And we don't, and the nice part is we don't get the forest fires or anything here. We're pretty isolated from them. We don't, so when everything else is burning and everybody else is complaining about it, we don't see any of it.
[00:01:16] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, that's good. We had, uh, I mean, all the forest fires and then the Boundary Waters in Minnesota and even Northern Wisconsin were on fire, uh, which is very, very rare.
[00:01:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I had, I saw the worst air quality day ever here y- Thursday. I think the, like, air quality index was something like 265 or something. It was just absolute... Like, I was out driving 'cause I had to bring my car in to get brakes done, and two cars ahead of me it looked like fog. Like, I drove past the lake and you could not see anything on the lake.
[00:01:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I was just like- Wow ... "What the..." And it's smelled everywhere like a campfire, like, even in your house, and it's, it's wild.
[00:02:01] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, and it's not even your campfire.
[00:02:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: No, no.
[00:02:04] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not your barbecue.
[00:02:07] Dr. Mike T Nelson: No. Yeah, no, it's- And then I'm lifting with the garage door shut and everything because I'm like, you, even just wa- I didn't even walk outside unless I had to.
[00:02:15] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It was, yeah, it was pretty- Yeah,
[00:02:17] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: no ...
[00:02:17] Dr. Mike T Nelson: pretty miserable.
[00:02:18] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It was the first time actually here that we had an air quality change, like, from pretty much perfect on Thursday. Yep. And, uh, I heard from a couple people actually in California that, a couple people I train that are sprinters.
[00:02:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:02:31] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: They said it w- it was absolute hell, like, trying to train in it.
[00:02:35] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So yeah. Yeah. The, the forest fire thing's become, like, a real problem. Like, it's, and it literally turned on, like, five years ago, and it just seems to be getting worse.
[00:02:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And then if you read any of the literature on, like, air quality, especially particulate matter- It's really bad. Like, I was thinking, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, you know, it's probably not good."
[00:02:57] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And then I started reading some of the literature, which again, is probably a biased snapshot. I didn't spend, you know, forever looking at all of it, but I was like, "Wow, this is relatively conclusive and relatively pretty damn bad."
[00:03:12] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yep. And, uh, yeah, the inflammatory lung diseases and everything- Yeah ... you get from it are just unbelievable.
[00:03:18] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Cancers and, yeah Not a good, not a good scene. It's, uh, we've had, like, a lot of road closures here because it's one road in here, um, from forest fires. But like I said, being in the rainforest, chance of a forest fire here is pretty slim. Like, you have to learn how to light a fire here, and I was a camp guy when I came from Ontario.
[00:03:36] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, uh, you gotta, you gotta know how to do it, 'cause if you, if you start on the ground starting a fire, you're gonna be fanning that thing all night 'cause it won't- Oh, just too wet ... just dr- too wet, and it just draws water, yeah. Ah.
[00:03:48] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's
[00:03:48] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: crazy. Yeah.
[00:03:48] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Ah.
[00:03:49] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: The ground's just, just so, so dense of wetness, and yeah, rainforest activity.
[00:03:55] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Ah. Yeah.
[00:03:56] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Cool. So I li- I like the peptide thing today. This'll be good, um, because- Yeah, does that
[00:04:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: sound good?
[00:04:01] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, because what we'll do is we can bleed this right into, um, like, types of training. 'Cause obviously these peptides that are the mitochondrial ones, the ones that people are really pushing right now anyway-
[00:04:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah
[00:04:12] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: um, those are, you know, they call them exercise mimetics, but there's never been an exercise mimetic 'cause there's, like- Right ... only one fucking thing that turns on.
[00:04:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Or turns off. There's just this one thing- Yeah ... and then you're good, bro.
[00:04:24] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It's hilarious. Yeah. And, and, and, and so, so really at the end of the day when people are using these mitochondrial peptides, when you look at it, if they're not pushing the mitochondria through training- Yeah
[00:04:34] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: which is the natural conse- you know, these peptides are, some of these are mainly the natural consequence of heavy training, then, um, really what are you, like, what are you targeting, right?
[00:04:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, that's what I can't figure out, and I've gotten a lot of hate mail about this too of, like, one, maybe you should do some aerobic training first, and we'll talk about this in the podcast.
[00:04:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Two, even if you do opt to go down the road of peptides, exactly what you said, it's like doing high amounts of testosterone. And yes, you will gain some muscle for a while, but, uh, a shocker, you do a lot better when you train, you know? So why would these- Yeah ... be any different? If they are as potent as what people say, which again is debatable, then you should time it with your aerobic training.
[00:05:17] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Everyone's like, "Ah, what are you talking about? That's crazy." Yeah. I'm like, I don't know, it seems to be sensical to me. I don't, I don't know.
[00:05:24] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It, it, you know, the testosterone example's perfect, um, 'cause that's exactly it. You know, you don't take testosterone to have testosterone build muscle.
[00:05:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right.
[00:05:32] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: You know, the PED seep space is so that you can train harder, higher volume, eat harder-
[00:05:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep
[00:05:39] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: and recover faster and harder.
[00:05:41] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and do it again.
[00:05:42] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So you can do more. Like, that th- that was in the '90s. I used to get so pissed off by that 'cause they'd s- they'd say, "Oh yeah, well, you take steroids for your bodybuilding shows, so, like, you don't even have to fucking train." And I'm like, "No, I'm doing seven-day-a-week training, and I'm literally e- force-feeding myself three or four- Yeah
[00:05:58] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: meals a day- You know, uh, in order to put on, you know, 100 pounds of mass. You can't Yeah You just can't do it on-
[00:06:05] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Can't create it out of thin air.
[00:06:06] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: This is the stimulus. It's just, it's just another, like, catalyst for the stimulus, right? So.
[00:06:10] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:06:11] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah. All right. Let's- Cool ... let's get it rolling then. We'll get her, get her, get it going here.
[00:06:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Sounds great. And you're good for an hour? Do you have a stop, just so I
[00:06:16] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: know? I'm, I'm, I'm good. Yeah, like, four... Like, uh, in, in an hour would be great. Um-
[00:06:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Okay ...
[00:06:20] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: I still have to train legs, so.
[00:06:21] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. All good. Sweet. I'll do a little pause, and away we go And welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Dwayne Jackson.
[00:06:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: How are you, sir?
[00:06:31] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Doing well, my friend. How are you?
[00:06:33] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Good. I, I think this is your third time on the podcast, so.
[00:06:38] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Third time, yeah, yeah.
[00:06:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, yeah. Always fun I think you've got one of the, one of the records now, so welcome back.
[00:06:42] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Well, thank you for having me on, for the record.
[00:06:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And I know you've been pretty busy with stuff, and today's topic is, um, peptides.
[00:06:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And like we were talking just before we started recording, is I see everyone promoting a lot of the mitochondrial peptides, and we'll get into the specifics and stuff too, but I get lots of pushback 'cause I'm like, well, one, maybe you should train your aerobic system if you want mitochondrial adaptations.
[00:07:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: We know that works, right? You can... Well then again, we'll discuss peptides and everything else. I just get questions from people who have a VO2 max of like 29 and wanna know what peptide to take, and I'm like, "Maybe you should do some aerobic training first." And then two, if you are gonna use a signaling type molecule, shocker, you should add a, a training stimulus to it.
[00:07:34] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like the example I was using was testosterone. If you're using supraphysiological levels of testosterone, ethics aside, you know, whatever, you know, legalities, et cetera, aside, most of the people I know who do that, who gain the most amount of muscle, train pretty hard. Now again, you can find exceptions, you can find, you know, freaks that don't do as much or are just hyper responders, but most people, you have to combine that with the signal of, you know, hypertrophy training to get the most out of it.
[00:08:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: So I don't know why these mitochondrial peptides would be that different, or maybe I'm missing the boat here. I don't know.
[00:08:11] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Well, you know, y- the testosterone example is a perfect one because, you know, in the world of PEDs, I work with a lot of pro bodybuilders. Mm-hmm. I was ex- ex- bodybuilder myself, open class, so relatively large.
[00:08:23] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, the idea of the PEDs are really so that you can train more and with, you know, more intensity and still recover from those bouts of exercise. And, and really as you get bigger and bigger and bigger and you reach that ceiling of, of muscle growth that you can have, it really becomes one of, you know, maintaining that volume over time and that feeding behavior in order to actually get the effects.
[00:08:49] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So yeah, i- and when we look at, um, mitochondrial peptides, it's actually funny because a lot of people in, on the anabolic space are interested in them. Um, they utilize them for different reasons. But, uh, the, the rules are identical to for when they're using testosterone, except for we're talking about the opposite effect here.
[00:09:09] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: We're talking about amplifying AMPK sig- signaling.
[00:09:14] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um- Yeah, and we'll get into what- Right ... AMPK is versus mTOR and that kind of stuff.
[00:09:17] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Absolutely. Yeah, and, and, but, but it's on the opposite, uh, pathway to muscle protein synthesis. So, you know, it, it follows that if we're gonna be utilizing peptides that are, that we believe are helping us with mitochondrial function, for us to do the obvious and train mitochondrial function, um, and get that to a pinnacle just like you would if, you know, someone was using PEDs, get yourself into the actual habits and the training stimuli that are required to activate those mitochondria.
[00:09:51] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Then the icing on the cake is, oh, look at that, when I'm doing my HIIT training during my work periods, I'm pushing 400 watts instead of pushing 375 watts.
[00:10:01] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:02] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And that, you know, that minutia requires, um, being able to, um, see that phenotype or be able to pull out that minutia requires you to have some level of aerobic fitness to start with because- Sure
[00:10:16] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: you know, really it's, it's, it's that aerobic fitness that turns on the same peptides In endogenously, like within the body, that people want to, um, super compensate with and whatnot. So, you know, y- you've hit the nail on the head. We gotta train the system that we're interested in developing, and we don't train the mitochondria so well when we're pushing, you know, 400 pounds to 800 pound squats for four reps.
[00:10:41] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:10:42] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So.
[00:10:42] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And that's, I mean, probably one of my bigger mistakes was years ago, I probably bought into too much of the interference literature and, you know, a lot of it was reading a lot more of the, the bro science and, you know, being a smaller person at the time, I was trying to get above 230. I didn't have a Strongman, so I competed at 220, I think, somewhere in there.
[00:11:07] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And obviously a Strongman has an aerobic component to it, but about a year before that, I was like, "Man, my weights are so sub-max of..." W- even the starting weights for some of these classes, you know? It's just bonkers. And so I bought too much into the, "Well, I just need to eat more and just train heavy and don't do any aerobic stuff.
[00:11:27] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's gonna interfere, especially if you're a smaller person and hard gainer and ectomorph," and, you know, all this kinda stuff. And I remember walking in, I was still working at a biomed company at the time, having to just backpack it on and just a cooler and walking into work, and I remember getting up to just the second flight of stairs and being like, not just a little out of breath, like not feeling good, like breathing pretty damn hard.
[00:11:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I'm thinking, "What am I doing?" And so I went through all my notes and stuff and I'm like, "Did I really get any stronger significantly during this period of time than other periods of time?" The answer was no. And then I realized, oh shit, it's a Strongman event, so you have medleys, you have things like that, granted they're relatively short, but there is an aerobic component to it even though it's called Strongman.
[00:12:17] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And at the time, my buddy Kenneth Jay was doing some stuff, and so I took a class from him. D- got a rower and started doing a bunch of aerobic stuff. And about, you know, one or two years later I realized- Oh my God, I, I feel so much better. Like, my energy is better, I can train harder, I can do more volume, I recover faster, my VO2 max is a lot higher.
[00:12:40] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I went, "Oh, I bet other people have this same issue." And so I started running into people, looking at their training and, and same thing. So all that to say that I think we forget sometimes the ancillary or the supportive systems don't get a lot of love, and many times those can actually be your rate limiter, even if your goal is only, you know, hypertrophy or just strength.
[00:13:04] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Pff. 100%, and that's conditioning, right?
[00:13:07] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:13:07] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, you know, and, and it's funny because, um, people really split their conditioning up with strength. It's al- it's always like, "Oh, I'm doing strength, I'm doing conditioning." But the, uh, the key, and, and I mean, George Brooks was touting this way back in the day, you know- Yeah
[00:13:24] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: when I was an undergrad. Um, you know, his whole, his whole lactate sink, lactate shuttle thing. Mm-hmm. Um, now I know the lactate shuttle's been dis- disputed back and forth for decades. But the lac- you can't deny the quality of ha- or the, the benefits of having a high-quality lactate sink from, you know, some good base aerobic training where your slow twitch are tuned, dense in mitochondria, lots of vascularization to take up lactate during these bouts of exercise that, like you said, in Strongman, that's gonna be the rate limiter.
[00:13:57] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: If you're building hydrogen ions and lactate accumulation over the course of a, you know, a, um, a, a lift, um, that's gonna limit your ability to actually get the rock or the stone up on top of the freaking log or whatever it is that you're doing at the time. Yeah. And, and so, so that base training in the background, it's not gonna limit your strength.
[00:14:18] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, as long as you feed the engine and you're training properly in your strength training, that's gonna be fine. But what it will do is it'll provide that conditioning so that, you know, when you're lifting some- yeah, it's fine to be able to lift something that's 700 or 800 pounds, but how long can you lift it for is going to be the key player here.
[00:14:35] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And this doesn't, this doesn't matter whether you're doing Strongman or doing bodybuilding. Conditioning always comes into play at some point, whether it's because your you know, your heart's not doing so well from your, uh, activities over the decades, or whether it's, you know, the, the fact that you just need to...
[00:14:52] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: You're just so deconditioned that when it comes time to building strength and volume, you just can't push through that window because you're, you know, you feel like you're gonna barf between every set
[00:15:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and especially with strongmen, like, you know, most medleys are, you know, 60 seconds. Again, there's some variability with that.
[00:15:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And if anyone's ever done one of those medleys, even if the weights are moderately heavy for whatever your, you know, training status is They make them look deceptively ea- easy on TV. Uh, but, like, doing, like, all-out stuff for 60 seconds, or in the lab we would do, you know, 20 or 30 second Wingates. You know, get on a bike, pedal as hard as you possibly can.
[00:15:33] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You think, "Ah, 20 seconds of work, that's not so bad." And then you do one of those, or even do repeated Wingates, and you're like, "Holy crap." Like, this i- it's just something you have to experience to appreciate the level of output that's associated with it.
[00:15:50] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: You wanna know why? It's funny, I use Wingate tests every year in my, or every time I teach my course, and I'll tell you, it's funny.
[00:15:56] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Like, I use it as an example of showing energy systems.
[00:15:59] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:00] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And the overlapping, the overlapping energy systems, because when we were at Ottawa U, they actually took this protocol out because of people, like, barfing and falling off the bike and stuff. Yeah. But they, we did 45, 45 second Wingates.
[00:16:12] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, th- uh, yuck.
[00:16:13] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Well, and the beauty of it was, was if you're conditioned... Yeah, and that was back when we were measuring pedal revolutions with a camera, right? We didn't even have cadence. Yep, that's what we
[00:16:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: did, too. The old
[00:16:22] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Monark bikes. The Monark bike, yep. Yeah, yeah. Drop the weight on, drop the weight on, let her rip.
[00:16:26] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep.
[00:16:27] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And it's, uh, and it's funny because the 45 second Wingate is great because it illustrates, like, that first alactic power drop where the phosphocreatine system falls out. Then you go, you know, you're pretty much running on anaerobic glycolysis and a little bit of aerobic stuff. And then w- and then as lactate accumulates, you see the second power drop, and that's usually at the end of those 30 seconds.
[00:16:48] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Well, if you go, if you push it out another 15 seconds, you see that lactic, lactic b- acid power drop or the lactate power drop. And then you see what your aerobic system, a- as a, as, you know, the biggest complement of power that you're putting out, can really chug out. And it's, as you would know, basically pedaling as hard as you can, and the pedals are hardly even moving at that point.
[00:17:08] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. 'Cause you're at such a high fixed output, too, most of the time when you're, when you're doing, like, a true Wingate.
[00:17:12] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It's all, it's all fixed. Yeah, exactly. Right. So, so, so, you know, y- you can see these, you can see these energy systems fa- fall out, and at first, when you first start and you're spinning that sucker at, you know, 110 or 120, uh, RPMs and they drop the weight on, that first alactic part where you're using phosphocreatine for, like, 10 seconds, um, it feels like you could go forever.
[00:17:31] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:32] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Right? And, and so, so it's, it's really neat because a lot of, a lot of people now, even nutritionists and everything, don't even... If they're working in the exercise space, don't even know the energy systems. And once you understand those and you realize that they're overlapping, they all contribute to every mo- every part of the exercise.
[00:17:51] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It's just how much they contribute depends on how long you go and how hard you're going. Then, um, it makes sense to have that aerobic base in order to be able to push for a long time, to create, you know, anaerobic power- For a long time. And that's, that, that's the concept to, you know, lactate threshold training and everything is, you know, pushing the system upward so that we can perform in the anaerobic zone for a lot longer so we can create a lot more power within a given period of time
[00:18:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:18:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And then if you start doing repeated things, so if you're doing, like, say, 30 second... The classic one is, like, 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off, which I hate the one-to-one ratio, 'cause unless you are incr- either you're doing almost no output or you're incredibly highly trained, like, 30 seconds, like, the one-to-one ratio for most people to do a high quality output is just not enough rest period, period.
[00:18:47] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, but- Yep ... as you start repeating those, even if you allow longer rest periods, because of the fatigue, even if you've got, you know, three, four minute rest periods, you're not gonna get rid of all of the fatigue. You'll see them start to drop off, you know, just from that too, which if people have never experienced that, it's a, it's a weird sensation because you, you feel rested.
[00:19:10] Dr. Mike T Nelson: So let's say you're four intervals in and you're doing long rest periods, which is generally where I have people start, 'cause I wanna keep the high, the work quality high. You'll just kinda hit this weird wall where you're like, "Okay, I was doing, say, 300 watts," whatever it is, and you get on for, like, round five.
[00:19:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You're like, "Ah, I got this," and you start pedaling. You're like, "Yeah, no problem," or you're, you're doing the rower. And then about halfway through, like, you're literally trying as hard as you can, and your output's just nyar. It just drops. It's, it's the weirdest sensation to realize, oh, oh yeah, fatigue is cumulative.
[00:19:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, this is my aerobic system that's not developed enough to get enough ATP to replenish the system to go again because of the fatigue of the work actually being done.
[00:19:58] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: You know, it's, it's, it's neat you use as, as an example, um, like, you know, running on a spin bike, say, for example, is a great, a great one.
[00:20:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, same idea.
[00:20:04] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, because I, um, uh, the reason I, I kinda knew there was something going on with my, something in my body when my kidneys were failing, and part of, part of when k- during kidney failure is literally, um, a h- really super-duper high, um, oxidative load and inflammatory load.
[00:20:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm.
[00:20:20] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And you get mitochondrial dysfunction, like, really bad, and that's why a lot of people end up with, like, metabolic diseases- Ah
[00:20:25] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: and stuff
[00:20:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: from that. Is that from the ROS buildup, that it just starts- Yeah ... crushing all the mitochondria then?
[00:20:29] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yep, exactly. Ah. And then, and then of course then you don't move as much, so then you- Sure ... have fiber type, fiber type switching, you know, to more faster phenotypes and everything else, so, you know, you're walking up the stairs and you're getting, like, a burn in your legs like you're fucking doing squats, but you're literally-
[00:20:41] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: just walking up a set of stairs. And I noticed it in spin classes, 'cause I'd go to these, like, 6:00 AM spin classes, and it'd be all the old people there. Um, and, uh, I'm at the back of the class, and I'm, I'm, I'm pedaling as hard as I can. I look over and this, this guy that's, like, 15 years older than me, kind of a chubby dude, is pushing, like, 150, 160 watts.
[00:21:04] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And I look down at my bike, and I am huffing and puffing at, like, 75, under 100 watts.
[00:21:09] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, man.
[00:21:10] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And I'm pushing, like, as hard as I can, so I'm like, "Oh, yeah, definitely this bike's broken." Like, there's, you know, obviously it's not reading watts properly. Like, that's how- ... that's how much I was, 'cause my, you know, central command was putting out 300- Yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:21:20] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: 300 watts, right? And, uh, after repeated bouts of that over time and seeing that no different bikes give me the same fucking answer, my heart rate's not telling me the story here, um, I realized really quickly that there's something going on. And then it took me... You know, once I found out kidney disease and everything else, I was like, "I wonder if this is the whole fatigue thing that I have."
[00:21:40] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And certainly, um, it is. And it's, it's a number of different things, urea build-up. Urea just, like, nar- it's gnarly on every cell.
[00:21:47] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:48] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, uh, but, but, you know, the inflammatory and oxidative effects of, of just the disease were enough for me to actually, you know, drop from being... You know, I was, I was on the Yale cycling team for the time I was there.
[00:21:59] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Oh, wow. You know, I was cross-country mountain biker. You know, I ran 10Ks a day when I raced motocross professionally. Um, so I, I knew what, what it felt like to actually, you know, be aerobically fit. And, uh, that was when I was like, "Holy shit, this is, this is, this is gonna be a tough haul," because really there's no stopping that train.
[00:22:16] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: You can't just like, you know, you know, talking about peptides, you can't just take a peptide and hope that, hope for the best. This is a, you know, chronic problem
[00:22:24] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Did your sweat kind of smell like, uh, cat piss? Did it have like a really- It did- ... noxious aroma to it?
[00:22:29] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It did at first, but you actually stop sweating because at the same time that you're, um...
[00:22:34] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So the urea does, uh, play with the sudomotor glands for sweat. Um, but also because of the chronic dehydration that occurs with it- Oh ... with it, 'cause you're, you're just pissing out water all the time if you're peeing at all. And if you aren't, then it's building up in your system, the urea. Um, yeah, you, you would, you would basic- I, I didn't sweat for years.
[00:22:53] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It's a, it's a common thing. It, and I mean, like, I could push as hard as I wanted. I just overheated. I didn't really sweat. So, um, but in terms of y- yeah, the smell, um, any sweat you did have, if you were in a sauna you'd sweat. You could push it then 'cause you get core temperature way up. But, um, but the, uh, the smell, yeah, you, you would smell urea in your sweat, but you'd smell it on your breath even, and that was kind of one of the, that's one of the- Oh, wow
[00:23:15] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: telltale signs that you, you know, you're not in ketosis, but you do have this like funky smell in breath. It's not ketones. And it's like a cat, yeah, it's like a cat piss, like a urea, it's like a, a ammonia smell.
[00:23:26] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Wow.
[00:23:27] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah. And- Not pretty, not sexy ...
[00:23:29] Dr. Mike T Nelson: and when you're not sweating, is that because your fluid is so dysregulated your body is trying to hold like your mean systemic filling pressure, so it can't afford to, to lose any more fluid then?
[00:23:40] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Or is there something else going on? I-
[00:23:42] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: in my case and a lot of other people's cases is you, you have a big urine output, but that urine is made up of purely water. You're not, you're just not, you're not getting rid of, uh, the, the actual solutes. You're just getting rid of-
[00:23:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Ah, okay ...
[00:23:55] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: so you end up in like a chronically dehydrated state.
[00:23:58] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yep. Um, and, and, and with, which is funny, and then you, you know, you're drinking as much as you possibly can at the time when you're still peeing, um, that, the, your RAAS system gets activated despite the fact that your flu- have enough fluid on board, so then it starts holding onto sodium and, yeah, potassium and everything else, and then that becomes a whole other, um, bag of tricks.
[00:24:18] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But the background of it is that, you know, you have, you have anaerobic, um, sorry, aerobic collapse And your ability to, to produce aerobic power is, you know, so limited that, you know, sweating might just be an artifact of not being able to push enough to get enough heat built to actually do something.
[00:24:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Sure. And did you go in to get, like, blood work then? Like, to try to figure out what was going on, or what was that process? Because luckily you... There's also another tip too. Unfortunately, usually it's guys who, like, we'd be, like, literally half dead, and they're like, "
[00:24:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Ah, I'm fine. I'm not going to
[00:24:56] Dr. Mike T Nelson: the hospital."
[00:24:56] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's like if, if you don't feel good and you, you are in tune enough with your body to know that something's not right, for God's sakes, go in and get it checked out. Like, worst case scenario- 100%, 100% ... you find you're fine. The worst... But if you do find something, you wanna know, especially with kidney stuff, you wanna know sooner than later- Than later
[00:25:15] Dr. Mike T Nelson: for sure.
[00:25:16] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yep. I was the, uh, guy in denial. That makes no sense whatsoever. Um, you know, at the time I was, you know, w- tenured professor doing my tenured professor thing. Um-
[00:25:26] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:25:26] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And
[00:25:26] Dr. Mike T Nelson: you had looked a lot at the renin-aldosterone-angiotensin system and microvascular- That's what I, yeah ... structure and all that kind of stuff.
[00:25:32] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: I, yeah, I was the director of the AC Burton Lab for Microvascular Research. Like, that's- Yeah ... that's, you know, everything to do with blood pressure regulation, kidneys, stress, everything else. And, you know, uh, denial's an amazing, amazing thing when you're, when you're into, into any sport. Like, you know, when I quit pro motocross it was, it was like getting slapped in the face with a brick.
[00:25:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: I didn't even know how to come back to civilization because, you know, such a intense, uh, you know, decade and a half of my life. Bodybuilding, you know, um, was the next step, and that, that was again another one where, you know, I associated with my- myself with being an athlete more than I did, you know, a professor or an academic or, you know, an intellect.
[00:26:14] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So I really had a, I really had trouble blending the two. And so long story short, I was one of those guys that waited too long, and when you start having symptoms of kidney disease that are, like, prevalent enough that they're affecting your day-to-day life, you've gone too far. And it was, uh, it was actually when my retina started detaching, um- Oh
[00:26:36] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: and I went in. And, you know, I, I was just down the hall, um, uh, you know, from, I was in biophysics, so I was just down the hall from the, from the, the, the, um, tran- at the tr- the renal department and the transplant clinic. So I'd gone, I, I was having like a, um, I was having this, I was writing a grant actually at the time.
[00:26:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Got the grant, but, uh- But I was, uh got, got a good grant. But, um, I, I couldn't, I couldn't see anything, but, like, um, basically I could only see the outside of my eye. Like, it was, everything was so bright that I couldn't see- Mm ... except for a halo around the outside. So I went, I just went into my secretary and said, admin- admin assistant, sorry.
[00:27:13] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Uh, and I went in and I, uh, I said, "I'm just going into the hospital to, uh, to get, to get some stuff checked out," and they did my blood pressure, and I was in a major hypertensive crisis, like 196- Mm ... over, like, 100.
[00:27:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, Jesus.
[00:27:25] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Heart rate like 97. Um- Oh ... you know, I was 260 pounds. Um, and uh, you know, we just had a baby a month before that, and, uh, it, that was, you know, I, I, I, I basically got the blood work done.
[00:27:38] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: They called me within, like, several hours and said, "We need you immediately in the dialysis clinic." And, uh, so then I went and talked to my nephrologist for the first time that day with a baby stroller in my, you know, pushing in with my, my wife, and he just looked at me and said, "You know the gravity of the situation, right?"
[00:27:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, and he's like, he's like, like, "You, you, you study this stuff And I'm like, "Oh, I know there's gravity." I'm like, "How long till I'm on dialysis?" He's like, "Imminently." And I said, "Can you give me a month?" And he said, "We'll do bloods every day."
[00:28:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Hmm.
[00:28:06] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But he said like, "Your, your potassium and everything's so sideways that w- we gotta get this blood pressure under control."
[00:28:11] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So they just, you know, snowed me with beta blockers and ACE inhibitors. And, and, and then, you know, um, the rest of the story goes on. But, but it's, uh, you know, yeah, y- you're right. Y- the moment you feel like things aren't performing well, and that's the beauty of understanding where your limits are physically.
[00:28:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Definitely.
[00:28:31] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Like, you know, we're talking about pushing ourselves aerobically. That's where you're gonna notice the biggest shit, is that cardiorespiratory system, when it ain't firing on, on time, um, you know, you will notice a massive drop. Just like when you start aerobic training, it's really easy to become good at it.
[00:28:50] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Mm-hmm. You just gotta be consistent, and it's not that hard. Like, so many people become marathon runners within, you know, a year because they didn't realize they could run, because they started out walking, and then they did walk, run, and then all of a sudden they're jogging, and now they're running. Um, it's such an easy way for us to produce massive effects, like far easier than building strength or building muscle mass.
[00:29:12] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, by far.
[00:29:13] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: By far. No question. Like, with every week you see improvements, and they aren't just neurological. And, you know, you get physiological changes, uh, you know, in the muscle, and you also get a, a, an increase in neurological efficiency and everything else, which all transfers to better training in the gym
[00:29:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:29:33] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And just to close up on the kidney stuff, you've had a transplant, you've had that quite a while ago, and you're, you're doing good now, so-
[00:29:40] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah. Oh, yeah, doing great. You know, I, you know, after you said that about, you know, you know, the gravity of it, and I did, the wake-up call, I instantly... I lost 100 pounds within, of muscle, within, you know, a year.
[00:29:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Hmm.
[00:29:52] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, I just, all I did was I just built out a, um, a really low-protein diet, and it was just sandwiches. And I filled it... I, I said, "There's 1,500 calories of sandwiches." I was eating, like, 6 or 7,000 calories at that time. I said, "There's 1,500 calories of sandwiches in this box," to my wife. And I said, "And every day I'm g- every night I'm gonna make these, and I'm gonna eat that box, and that's all I'm gonna eat for a year."
[00:30:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh,
[00:30:11] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: wow. I'm just gonna waste this off, and I did. And best thing I ever did, man. I, I'm 178 pounds now. I'm lean, I'm strong, I'm aerobically inclined. You know, um, i- it's, uh... it feels great to actually, you know, move and not huff and puff like you were talking about at the beginning. Um, you know, going to water slides with my daughter was the first thing I actually noticed the biggest changes.
[00:30:34] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Ah. Like, running up the stairs with the, the boat on my head and-
[00:30:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, yeah,
[00:30:38] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: yeah. You know. So, so, you know, i- it's i- and, and, and that aerobic insult, um, was recovered with, with a transplant quite, quite easily. Um, I was fortunate enough to get my transplant fast. I was only on dialysis for nine months. Um-
[00:30:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, that's actually pretty short.
[00:30:52] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I mean, nine months is a long time, but relatively speaking for transplant list.
[00:30:56] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, you're looking at, like, five years minimum before you even get, you know, to be a f- get to the top of the, uh, deceased, um, donor list. I had friends, like, I made so many friends in university from being in, being in university all my life.
[00:31:10] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: I had a couple people that lined up for it, and I was just really blessed to have that. I had one of my buddies that lived with me in my master's gave me a kidney, and, uh- Oh, wow ... yeah, we squeezed it between COVID shutdowns of the hospital, 'cause it was elect- It's elective surgery. Like, no difference between that and a boob job.
[00:31:27] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Elective surgery?
[00:31:28] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, because, um, it's treatment. It's not a cure.
[00:31:31] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Because you can be on dialysis in between, is that correct? '
[00:31:35] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Cause dialysis and transplant are treated, are treated both as treatments. Oh. So, if you have a treatment that's keeping you stable-
[00:31:42] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right ...
[00:31:43] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: then it's considered... Yeah, so it's just considered, uh, considered an elective surgery, like you elect to have a transplant.
[00:31:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Hmm.
[00:31:49] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So, um, yeah, I squeezed it in between, like, COVID shutdowns. Um, and I was in and out of the hospital in, uh, a long weekend, so I was, I was pretty darn fortunate. Um, but went in super healthy. Like, I, I was, I got myself in really good shape before the transplant. Um, it was hard. A lot of throwing up and a lot of saunas and shit like that to try and keep things under control.
[00:32:13] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But, um, it, it benefited me in the end. And, you know, the biggest part of maintaining health was literally the cardio respiratory training. I strength trained, but I can only strength train so much, um, because the metabolites built up so I could taste it. My tongue was like electricity.
[00:32:29] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oof.
[00:32:29] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, yeah, yeah, that's when I, that's when I knew I, I, you know, I'd pushed the legs a little too hard.
[00:32:34] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, but yeah, so, so, so everything's awesome now. I'm, uh, six years this October. Um, I've spent, you know, five of them out here in the Pacific Northwest, Canada. Um, so we don't, we don't have anything out here. It's like David Hasselhoff, Baywatch Hospital, man. It's like, it's freaking, in a portable on the side of the ocean, you know?
[00:32:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, so yeah, so, you know, all's good. No problems. We get my labs done every month, and we, uh, I haven't had any shakedowns, so knock on wood.
[00:33:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: That's great. That's awesome. So if someone was to take peptides to potentially help with aerobic stuff, what, what is your thoughts from the current literature, which is kind of limited?
[00:33:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: 'Cause it seems like every time I turn around there's a new one that's sort of being touted for mitochondria from, you know, MOTS-c to, you know, SS-31, which I guess is more of an FDA-approved drug for, uh, what is it? Barr syndrome, I think. Um- And heart
[00:33:36] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: failure. It's, heart failure. It's starting to get a lot of
[00:33:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: good media play.
[00:33:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, for carnitine lipid deficiencies. Um, what, what would you recommend ag- people to look at? And again, it is for entertainment purposes. We're not prescribing anything. Talk to your physician. Most of these compounds are not approved for human use, research use only, all the standard caveats apply. But I think if people are going to look at these things, I would much rather them be educated and try to do their homework on what they're actually doing versus trusting Bob, who's selling them out of the back of his van, that this one's the greatest thing ever.
[00:34:15] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:34:16] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Old Bob, eh? He's got the speakers and the, uh, and the peptides- Yeah, yeah ... in the back of his van that fell off a truck. Yeah.
[00:34:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Literally, a buddy of mine who flies powered paragliders, I told this story last time with, uh, Rick Collins, is we're down in South Padre and he's like, "You know anything about these peptides?"
[00:34:31] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I'm like, "Eh, kind of. Like, what's your question?" He's like, "All my powered paraglide buddies are selling them out of their van." And I'm like, "What?" I thought he was joking. I'm like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "Do they know anything about biology or anything?" He's like, "Oh, fuck no." He's like, "They just found it was a great side business and they're trying to get me to do it."
[00:34:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I'm like, "That sounds sketchy as fuck." He's like, "Yeah, that's what I thought, too." Th-
[00:34:55] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: that's hilarious. Yeah. That's a good example. Um, and I mean, it's not much different than a van if you're, uh, if you're buying them from a website that's all shiny. You have no clue. The guy could be literally running out to the- Yeah
[00:35:07] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: driveway to the van to pack the shit up anyway with his fancy website, so. Yeah, how would
[00:35:10] Dr. Mike T Nelson: you know?
[00:35:11] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Exactly. So, um, okay, so I am, like, so I did my, um, my PhD work in peptides. Um, all my research work actually was really involved in peptidergic neurotransmission. Um- Neuropeptide
[00:35:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Y was
[00:35:23] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: one of the main ones, right?
[00:35:24] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Neuropeptide Y was the main ones. I studied CGRP when we were looking at skin and sweat- Mm ... and all those things. Um, uh, uh, peptide ty- tyrosine, tyrosine we looked at. Um, so we've looked at a lot of different, um, different sympathetic, um, uh, and, and nociceptive pain related peptides and what they do outside of just their neurotransmission thing.
[00:35:47] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, because peptides are really cool because we have a whole bunch of, um, uh, peptidases and proteolytic enzymes and whatnot in the body that take care of these. And what I loved about peptides when I started studying them when we were looking at autonomic nervous system stuff, was that peptides aren't just the full peptide that you're utilizing.
[00:36:08] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: When they get truncated or broken down into pieces by the, um, by these enzymatic systems, they become completely different molecules within the same, um, um, system So for example, like neuropeptide Y can be truncated into a couple of different forms, and neuropeptide Y itself is a really good vasoconstrictor in the periphery.
[00:36:34] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, you know, raises blood pressure, comes out during exercise. People have, you know, polymorphisms where they have high NPY all the time. Hmm. And it relates to, like, blood pressure regulation. But centrally, neuropeptide Y actually plays a big role in anxiolytic responses, so making you less anxious- Hmm
[00:36:51] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: which is kind of a neat feedback mechanism- Yeah ... 'cause it's part of the sympathetic nervous system. Um, when they, when these, uh, um, pe- when, uh, neuropeptide Y gets truncated or broken down, it becomes really active on the presynaptic, uh, terminals, which basically gate how much of it gets released when we activate a nerve.
[00:37:10] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So there's a lot more to them, um, peptides than just, you know, injecting a compound and saying, "This compound does this thing." So that's the first thing, and so that, then that's, that's ubiquitous or, you know, common, common across all the peptides because we have these peptidases and proteolytic enzymes.
[00:37:28] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But coming into, like, the mitochondrial space, so I... And the reason why I gave that kind of disclaimer is so I love peptides. I, I love, I lo- I, um, I would love for the research to be, you know, more robust in the area, and I think the, the current usage of the general public is really gonna drive that. Um, and I think that there's a lot of great things that are, that have come out of peptide research.
[00:37:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, I mean, insulin came out of peptide research.
[00:37:52] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah. So- And GLP-1s are peptides ...
[00:37:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: GLP-1s are, are, are, are a great peptide research. Um, we have some of the, you know, most miraculous changes in people's body composition with these drugs now, um, that are, you know, now comparable to, like, bariatric surgery, which is the complete, you know, uh, big insult to the body , let's just call it what it is.
[00:38:14] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Oh.
[00:38:14] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh,
[00:38:14] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: yeah. Carving off your digestive system and tying things out, you're, uh-
[00:38:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah ...
[00:38:19] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: you know, you, you-
[00:38:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I've worked with- ... there's ... a fair amount of patients post-bariatric surgery, and a lot of digestive issues and a lot of things you still have to be careful with many years later, too. It's, uh-
[00:38:30] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Oh, people have- Yeah
[00:38:31] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: problems with digestive health, as you know, with- without even mucking around with poking and- For sure, yes. ... poking things and tying things off and pulling parts out, right? So-
[00:38:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep.
[00:38:38] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, so the mitochondrial peptides, the common ones right now that are, you know, in the big space are gonna be MOTS-c and SS-31.
[00:38:46] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, humanin is, uh, it, it's, it's become m- it's becoming more popular out there, and I'll kind of go through the mitochondrial mechanisms of- Yeah, yeah ... the peptide. But the point, the point of these are, um, the reason why they've become kind of a focus is because they're endogenously produced by the body during aerobic training And, um, with, uh, SS31, we do see some, um, some effects of that.
[00:39:14] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, also we see it, uh, change during strength training. We also see MOTC change during strength training. But, um, the, the major, uh, driver is g- is, is aerobic exercise. And so when we push the aerobic system, we see these different molecules upregulate. And, um, when, when we age, we see them drop. So the amount that they upregulate is going to be much less as we age, and it, it's something that happens concurrently over time.
[00:39:47] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So, you know, we don't know. So the res- the research in these areas... Like, so MOTC, let's take MOTC, for example. So it's, you know, MOTC, it's a, um, it's a AMPK activator, so it activates the, the, the catabolic pathways. And that makes sense that it goes up during heavy exercise because that is a major catabolic stimulus, and that's what drives the anabolic stimulus afterwards.
[00:40:13] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So with MOTC, um, it's, it, it is, um, it, it basically translocates to the nucleus when we create metabolic stress. So it gets activated during that, and then that activates this AMPK thing. And then, um, then we have the, the effects of, um, that on mitochondrial function And so with, with, um... And then there's a whole other camp out there with, with MOTS-c that's interested in its insulin sensitivity, um, arm.
[00:40:44] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, uh, I think that's where people get mixed up between, like, do I use this, uh, one, you know, a certain dose? I'm not gonna talk about doses today. Um, a certain dose, um, for my strength training. Do I do a certain dose during aerobic training? Do I even have to do aerobic training when I'm using it, 'cause I'm adding in this, you know, um, uh, mitochondrial peptide that I don't, you know, that's gonna give me all these great aerobic benefits?
[00:41:07] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But the key here is that we don't know the data coming from MOTS-c dropping with age and MOTS-c going up with exercise. They aren't coming from an, uh, exogenous or injected MOTS-c peptide in the face of health or no health. And that's where the, that's where the literature's very limited on this, on this peptide.
[00:41:35] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Anecdotally, um, I, I do use MOTS-c. I use it during my, um, heavy HIIT training sessions.
[00:41:42] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Hmm.
[00:41:42] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And anecdotally, I do notice a difference. I've done the experiments on myself. I know it's an N of one and everything else. Sure. But anecdotally, I do, I do see much greater power output during- Hmm ... the work, the work to, uh, the work ratio part of it, um, during HIIT training.
[00:41:58] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And- Is that acute or is that after, like a few weeks? I'm assuming it's a more of a, a chronic type thing after you've been using it for a few weeks.
[00:42:06] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So, yeah. So, so the, um, the effects that I noticed the most occurred almost acutely. And when I say that-
[00:42:15] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Hmm ...
[00:42:15] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: um, because, uh, I did see about a 10% or 15% improvement in power output.
[00:42:23] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah. But I was like, uh- That's
[00:42:24] Dr. Mike T Nelson: pretty significant ...
[00:42:25] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: yeah. And I was like, you know, may- maybe placebo. You know? Sure. I'm old, I'm old and maybe I don't want to push myself as hard. But, um- I'd, I'd been training with this paradigm for about two years and building, building some really good aerobic, um, strength in that.
[00:42:40] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, um, once I added MOTS-c, I actually was able to break through a pretty darn good plateau in that, um, heavy aerobic training. We're talking, like, real heavy stuff. I can't do one-to-one ratios work to rest, but I was working, I was working to a, a, um, a, a one-to-two work-to-rest ratio with, um-
[00:42:59] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And what kind of duration?
[00:43:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like 60 seconds or like VO2 max stuff or?
[00:43:03] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, so f- so 30, 30 second, uh, 30 second works, uh- Okay ... full out, as hard as I possibly can go, um, with, uh, you know, a, a minute to two minutes of- Sure ... of rest between. Building up to the max I've, I've got up to is a minute work, work period with a two-minute rest.
[00:43:21] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Um- And that's still, for people who are listening, that it's way more brutal than what it sounds like.
[00:43:27] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Oh, it's, it's... Yeah, and I mean, it's cumulative, too, right? Right. Especially if you're- But, yeah ... not letting those energy systems re- recover. So, so I, I, I have seen anecdotal stuff with MOTS-c, um, with some of the athletes that I work with in the, um, uh, cardiorespiratory fitness area.
[00:43:43] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: We've seen the training become better. How that translates to performance, you know, on the track or in, in the marathon or anything like that- Sure ... remains to be seen. But, um, anecdotally, you know, I've seen some stuff. It's been, there's been some good st- some good, um, anecdotes out there. Uh, the safety, we don't really know.
[00:44:02] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, you know, uh, the pathways seem pretty innocuous. Um, there hasn't been a whole bunch of, you know, claims for, you know, cancers or anything like that associated with MOTS-c. So, you know, it's, uh... But again, it's, it's, it's a, it's a risk that people have to take a cal- take a calculated one to do. Um, also, when we talk about these mitochondrial peptides, remember, I'm talking about as we age, they go down, right?
[00:44:28] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So we don't even know what the dosing is for, say, someone who's in their 20s or 30s versus someone who's in their 50s or 60s. 50s or 60s, it makes sense that it should help if we're actually getting decrements in production of this stuff during exercise. Yep. But again, it's all theoretical Right? Whereas SS-31 on the other hand, um, it's, you know, got some pretty good data behind it.
[00:44:51] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It's got, uh, um, duration studies behind it, you know? And, uh, I think- Yeah. And it's an FDA
[00:44:55] Speaker: approved drug too, so there's actually more human data on that than almost any peptide as far as I'm aware, at least of the gray area peptide stuff.
[00:45:02] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Absolutely. Um, i- in, in terms of the mitochondrial peptides, like 100%.
[00:45:08] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, now again though, what we see when we see benefits with SS-31, um, I guess just mechanism first. It... So this stuff binds cardiolipin, um, in the inner membrane of the, um, of the mitochondria, so it stabilizes those cristae, if everybody remembers, you know, memorizing all these parts of the mitochondria.
[00:45:27] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: The little wiggly things I see on the diagram.
[00:45:28] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Exactly. And, uh, and, uh, and, and, and by doing so, then it improves the electron transport chain electron flow so that, um, we get a good, uh, leak of, leak of electrons to kind of drive that, that, um, gradient down so we can get all those beautiful extra ATP out of that, out of that system, which that's where we get all, really all of our ATP when we're talking about aerobic training.
[00:45:52] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, the rest of it's negligible. Um, so we get that, and we also, it also decreases ROS, so reactive oxygen species or, um, um, uh, oxidative stress. And then through, through that, then it doesn't uncouple that whole ATP response, so we actually get, you know, good, good efficient ATP production. Um, the thing is though, we still don't know, um, what it mean, what that means in a person who's healthy.
[00:46:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right.
[00:46:18] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Because, you know, the data
[00:46:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: that we- Who doesn't have the cardiolipin issue.
[00:46:22] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Right. And, and, and so, um, you know, a great example is SS-31 has worked really, really well at heart failure. And, um- That
[00:46:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: makes sense ...
[00:46:31] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: makes sense. The heart is one of our most mitochondrial dense organs, and in heart failure, you know, we're t- we're dealing with ischemia and all these things that aren't feeding those mitochondria, so they break down and we get, you know, uh, mitochondrial, uh, loss and everything else.
[00:46:47] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: The heart becomes inefficient in being able to do its job. So it makes sense. Um, it also makes sense in like Barth syndrome and stuff like that, where we have issues with cardiolipin and we have issues with stability of the mitochondrial membrane. But if we look at people who, um, are deconditioned, again, anecdotally, and so I see this in bodybuilders and most, most is right to say most, many bodybuilders have, um, issues with cardiorespiratory fitness.
[00:47:21] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And a lot of them have left ventricular hypertrophy, so the heart is definitely inefficient in what it has to pump around a 300-pound body when that left ventricle becomes massive and the volume becomes small. So that part of it, I think that's why we're seeing increases in performance in people that are using it in that, you know, uh, cohort.
[00:47:44] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, again, from a, um, a, you know, an anecdotal perspective, SS-31 for me, it, it, it works freaking marvels with MOTS-c.
[00:47:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Hmm.
[00:47:53] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, but again, it's highly expensive, as is MOTS-c, to do it- Yeah ... properly. And so people have adjusted dosing and dosing protocols in order to match their wallet, which is
[00:48:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: a really interesting- Yeah, but they're dosing, it seems like, on pricing.
[00:48:08] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And we actually have SS-31. We have dosing data on it.
[00:48:12] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Tons.
[00:48:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. MOTS-c, you could argue we don't have much dosing data u- unless you're a pet rat.
[00:48:18] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, there's no... Yeah, well, I d- exactly. Um, yeah, and so SS-31 we do know, um, you know, some pretty good dosing data and, you know, they push up to, like, you know, 40 milligrams- Yeah
[00:48:30] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: of this stuff into people safely. But, you know, in order to see f- effects in my cohorts I've worked with, generally it's, you know, around 25 milligrams, 5 milligrams at the very, very minimum. And if you do a little mathy poo on that, it's gonna cost you. So, you know, if we're talking about levers to pull at the front end- You get your aerobic fitness up, and if you're pushing your aerobic fitness to the window and you've done all of the, um, you know, lactate threshold training and everything else to get your VO2 max up and everything else, then you're gonna see the benefits of these, of these peptides in my eyes.
[00:49:11] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: You'll see the benefits of them. And I've seen this in, you know, um, national level, uh, uh, canoers, kayakers, um, um, swimmers, um, long distance swimmers. And so we, we... But these people have pushed their aerobic system and even their anaerobic system in some of these cases for the short sprints right to as far as they possibly can, and they're also masters athletes, and that's why I'm seeing the effects that I do in these athletes I know.
[00:49:40] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, the-- We can only-- When we know we can push-- Like, when these people are doing VO2 max tests and we know where their threshold is, we know everything else, um, you can only get so much of a placebo effect on that if you have those, those data. So, you know, y- y- if y- you can definitely see a difference between pre and post when we use these things in people that have pushed their, their aerobic systems.
[00:50:07] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: I don't see how, if we're looking at mitochondrial function, how you can achieve any sort of mitochondrial benefit if you're not pushing the mitochondria to do so.
[00:50:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. 'Cause even like SS31, like we talked about, it's, you know, mechanism is pretty well established, probably stabi- stabilizing cardiolipin.
[00:50:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Maybe it has other effects we don't know about, which is entirely possible. Um, and you could theorize that if you are pushing really hard, and I haven't been able to find any direct data on this, I just can't find any, which doesn't mean it's not true, it doesn't mean it's true either, we just don't know, maybe that is causing a disturbance to cardiolipin, and that maybe SS31 is beneficial then because you're an older athlete and you're pushing real hard.
[00:50:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Where if you're a younger athlete in your 20s and you're just, you know, just started doing aerobic training, maybe you probably don't really see much issue then. Your cardiolipin's perfectly fine. It's not a rate limiter in any one of those cascades potentially.
[00:51:08] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: That's, that's where you hit the nail on the head, and that's where, you know, it, it, you know, we're getting old, Mike.
[00:51:17] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, so we
[00:51:17] Dr. Mike T Nelson: see the- I know. How old are you gonna be? I'll be 52 in a couple weeks.
[00:51:20] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: I'm 50- I'm 54 this September.
[00:51:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Okay, so you got me by two years.
[00:51:23] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I got you by half an undergrad. Yeah, so- Yeah, so, so it, it's funny because, um, you know, as, as, uh, the old wise men, uh, in the industry, it sounds like, kind of like an old guy when you say, "Well, you gotta do the work."
[00:51:40] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I know.
[00:51:41] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But you do. Like, you gotta do the work. And there's
[00:51:43] Dr. Mike T Nelson: no w- there's never been a way around it.
[00:51:45] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: There's never been a
[00:51:46] Dr. Mike T Nelson: way around it. Like, there's no physiologic free lunch.
[00:51:49] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Never is. And, and, and, and when it comes to peptides, it, that, that, that, um, ideology escalates because, for the most part, these are endogenous signaling molecules that we have s- you know, in our body at any moment in time.
[00:52:05] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And when we're younger, when we're, when we're like, you know, 20s and 30s, um, like you said, everything's pink. It should be anyway. Um, and so, you know, in a healthy system you're going to have massive improvements in aerobic, uh, strength and aerobic power and, you know, um, endurance just by doing the training.
[00:52:26] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So, and as we talked about at the beginning, th- these are remarkable changes. These aren't like strength changes. These are like, you know, mileage changes a week. So, you know, in these, in these cohorts then, if they're, if they, if they're just starting their journey into aerobic style training, you know, even if they're pushing their limits, how do they even know what the limit is-
[00:52:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah
[00:52:49] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: if they ha- if it's not something that they've been fit in before? So then all
[00:52:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: of a sudden- Especially if they're doing N of one where you, there's no other group you're comparing it to. Like, we don't have an awesome study that says, "Hey, it's randomized, it's blinded, it's placebo-controlled. We've got a group of 45-year-olds.
[00:53:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: They're both doing the same aerobic training except for one group gets MOTS-C, the other group doesn't. We don't know which group gets it, and the researchers don't know, and they're gonna do all these output data and maybe do biopsies and get mitochondrial..." We have none of that. None of
[00:53:23] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: it.
[00:53:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I wish we did.
[00:53:24] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, we, we have none of it, and the, you know, the biggest bang for the buck in a healthy young individual is going to be to push the system.
[00:53:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:53:33] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Like, way bigger than injecting anything. Yes. Um, and this is like, you know, when you went back to your testosterone analogy at the front end, like that, that, that analogy kinda sums it up is that, you know, same with when, when young people wanna get into, you know, taking anabolic steroids, um, you better have, like, done your homework first of all on the health consequences.
[00:53:55] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:56] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And you know, I've lived it and I work with a lot of pro bodybuilders. I got the pictures in the back. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm all for building muscle and being high performance, but if you don't know how your body performs without any sort of in, you know, e- e- uh, exogenous signaling, um, then sh- you sure as hell don't know where the limits are and you don't know the, the, the minimal effective dosing for anything And that's, you know, one thing we do know is that exercise, be it strength training or aerobic training or a combination of both, which is best, we do know that those just are independent, uh, factors that improve longevity, strength, cardiorespiratory fitness, power, and those are adaptations.
[00:54:38] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And those adaptations, um, when you're first starting out, have a ceiling that's way down the road.
[00:54:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:54:46] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And if you wanna have a long time in any sort of sport or any sort of, you know, um, physical output, you gotta push the system first, see where it goes, and then, you know, once you got that fitness, diet locked in, sleep and recovery and everything, the icing on the cake are the peptides.
[00:55:05] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And that icing, we don't really know how sweet it is. We don't know how bitter it is. We don't even know really for a lot of them the color of the icing. So, you know, uh, understanding the risks and benefits are gonna be massive, but in order to see the benefits, you gotta, you gotta do the work. That's all there is to it.
[00:55:25] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: There's no way around it. Um, having abs isn't doing the work. Um, you know, it's great to have abs, but at the same time, that doesn't really measure your fitness level whatsoever
[00:55:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and that's a ... You gotta love Instagram. I was doing a video the other day, and some guy told me I look out of shape. And I'm like, and it was just, like, a headshot too.
[00:55:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It wasn't like I was half naked or anything like that. And I'm like, "Well, what does in shape look like?" And again, I get you, you can probably tell body comp from facial structures and stuff like that. He's like, "You know, in shape." And I'm like, what is ... Well, this is like internet logic of like, and then they'll show pictures of someone who's very lean, and they'll be like, "Oh, I bet their aerobic system's great."
[00:56:12] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's like b- maybe, maybe not. Like, who knows? Like, leanness has almost nothing to do with that. But there's this weird association that body comp solves all the issues. Like, if you look really lean, you must be strong and have a good aerobic system. And we know people where that's definitely not true, and we know the inverse too.
[00:56:34] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, you go to just an average moderate level cycling club, and you'll see people that look kind of out of shape and will destroy you on a bike.
[00:56:43] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Well, that's what, that's what I was gonna say to you is, is that, um, you know, m- my, uh, my wife was r- like, right into marathon for decades. And we, um, we went to, like, Boston every year, and she always qualified, no problem.
[00:56:57] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, um, she was like your typical runner, like 99 pounds, five foot tall, you know, ripped, um, and ran all the time. Really good at running. Um, but when we go to Boston, you could not guess who was gonna win the race or ... Well, you could guess who was gonna win the race. It was gonna be probably one of the Kenyans or they, they were quite obvious who these people were.
[00:57:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:57:25] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Go back to, like, top 100, which is still, like, doing real good.
[00:57:28] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, yeah.
[00:57:29] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, and you can't, like, you're standing at the finish line, and you cannot- You have no idea ... no idea. Yeah. Um, there was a woman at one of the qualifiers that was probably about 150 pounds overweight, um, with a trainer. He was running backwards with her, and I was waiting for Kim to come up over this hill 'cause I knew where, I knew what she had to beat me for time, and I knew how far it was to the finish line.
[00:57:49] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And I'm like, this woman goes by me, and I'm like, and she, she goes by, and I'm like, "Kim's not supposed to show up for, like, 20 minutes." And, and, and she's, and her trainer's like, "Come on, you can do this." She's dragging her feet. She, you know, but, but she's a good runner. Like, she's, she's way ahead. She's getting, like, a three-hour marathon.
[00:58:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Damn.
[00:58:07] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um- And then Kim comes by and has to, like, do her last 5K at the fast- the faster pace than she did the rest of the race. Um, you know, i- if anybody saw them, she'd be like, "Well, uh, obviously this woman's gonna be way ahead of everybody else just by body composition." You see, and then you see, like, a firefighter go by with a pair of overalls and a, um, pair of work boots.
[00:58:29] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, so y- you cannot guess. You cannot guess this. And, and the internet has definitely skewed what we think fit is. And you know, if, if, if, if fitness is having abs and muscles, then why do we see so many guys and, you know, my friends and whatnot within the bodybuilding world, um, dropping dead-
[00:58:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah ...
[00:58:50] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: um, at 37 years old or even younger?
[00:58:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Even younger sometimes now.
[00:58:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Oh, yeah. In their 20s now.
[00:58:56] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:58:56] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Oof. Um, uh, with abs and, you know, epitomizing h- epitomizing North American health. It's, it's not, it, that does not, does not mean shit, so yeah. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about, Mike.
[00:59:10] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. And it's... And again, it's all relative to your goals and what you wanna do and what your trade-offs are.
[00:59:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, as much as I am for aerobic stuff, I think it's great, like, it's not even my number one goal. It's probably, like, barely in the top five. I just do it because I know I, I feel better. My goal isn't to get the top 2K or whatever. It's like, yeah, I just wanna go kiteboard more, pick up a heavy-ass dumbbell.
[00:59:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Maybe get some semblance of aerobic stuff's in, like, the top five, just because I know it supports all my other goals. It's not a goal in and of itself, but I've felt what it's like to not have it there, and that sucks, and I don't wanna go back to that again.
[00:59:52] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Exa- exactly. Yeah. And you know, it's funny, it becomes more important as you get older-
[00:59:55] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yes
[00:59:55] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: um, for, for, like, the longevity aspect. But if you're focusing it on, like, you know, being, being able to go out longer on your kiteboard or-
[01:00:02] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah ...
[01:00:03] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: um, for me, it's mountain biking. Um-
[01:00:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, mountain
[01:00:05] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: biking's
[01:00:05] Dr. Mike T Nelson: awesome, too.
[01:00:06] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, and I, and I lo- I love mountain biking because it, it, you know, it's the only time that I can spend, if I go out for, you know, three or four hours- I can spend...
[01:00:16] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Out here in the mountains, it's, it's hard. Um, I c- I can spend, you know, an hour or two of that in zone five.
[01:00:24] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, for sure. Yeah, mountain
[01:00:25] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: bikers have- And that's because I- ...
[01:00:26] Dr. Mike T Nelson: crazy outputs ...
[01:00:27] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Crazy. And you know, it's funny because get me to do zone five workouts in a dark, in my dark gym- Yeah, it's hard ... and it's like pull, it's like pulling teeth.
[01:00:36] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So, you know, you do something you, do something you really love and it's fun. Um, and all of a sudden, you know, you find yourself pushing 25% harder 'cause you're just having a good time doing it, and you don't know it until you look at your metrics after you're finished and you're like, "Holy shit, my heart rate was up in the 160s for, like, the last three hours."
[01:00:53] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Like, that's freaking crazy for, you know, for me anyway. Um, so yeah. So, so, you know, th- when we look at the whole big picture when it comes to peptides and everything else, the performance-enhancing space really, um, needs a little bit of an overhaul because we're kinda starting a little ass-backwards. And, you know, people are starting out their whole journey with...
[01:01:17] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: It used to be like, oh, I need to get a, you know, a Lululemon, a pair of Lululemon pants and a freaking headband and sweatband and sweat, whatever before I start, right? Yeah, yeah. And I used to always be like, "Why can't you start today with the ones you have," right? Um, now it's an excuse where it's like I gotta get these peptides in order for me to get my shit together, and that's an ass-backwards approach because it's, it's, it's, it's gonna drain your wallet and you're not gonna actually reap the benefits, especially for that first period, because if there's any benefits to be reaped, they're gonna be, like I said, after you've put in the work at the front end to get that base.
[01:01:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And you can always hire, you know, someone like myself or yourself or other people who are knowledgeable to do a consult, or even you can get basic cardiovascular programs. I mean, hell, I, I sell stuff with the Flexible Media Cardio Series if people wanna be educated. D- it's, it's not cheap, but it's way cheaper than a course of most peptides poorly applied.
[01:02:12] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And then, you know, once you got that figured out, if you, you know, wanna push the envelope or do a little bit more, hey, you know, more power to you. I'm not here to say yay, yay or nay, but it's, the basics will always be the basics and will always work, but they're always still just incredibly unsexy. Yeah,
[01:02:28] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: our, our, our physiology hasn't changed.
[01:02:30] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Right. So, so, so, you know, um, you, you nailed it. And that's, you know, when we think about the big picture and you look at, you know, where those peptides fit in, for anybody that starts out on a journey, you know, getting one of your, your programs for building aerobic fitness and whatnot, um, collect data.
[01:02:49] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Every, you know- Yes ... for the most part, people are wearing wearables anyway. Yep. Collect data. Figure, figure out your p- you know, if you're running, figure out your pace. And then, and then if you're using a peptide, you should see your pace go up. And, and, and if you, if your paces are still elevating while you're doing your training, you know, week by week, then you're probably interjecting with a, um, you know, a, um, a, a, a, a experiment- Yeah.
[01:03:12] Dr. Mike T Nelson: that
[01:03:13] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: has, has some flaws because y- you, you, you're still building and you don't, you don't know what's buried within that signal, whether that's the peptide helping you go further or not, um, because you haven't reached any sort of plateau in your performance. So it's really hard for you to do the experiment on yourself anyway.
[01:03:28] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: These are experimental, right? People are buying them for research purposes.
[01:03:31] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[01:03:32] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Then do, do the right study.
[01:03:34] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Last two questions as we wrap up. I really appreciate all your time. Have you heard anyone using SS31 pre-exercise? I've... This may be an in- an internet folklore thing, but I've heard people say that they've ran this experiment and they were using it 30 minutes before exercise, that their aerobic recovery during exercise acutely was significantly better.
[01:04:01] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just trying to figure out, one, if it is true, like, how, how the hell would that work?
[01:04:12] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, so, so, um, I have, I have, uh, lots of people do do that. Um, I have, I've experimented with that myself mainly because... But, but again, remember, like, the, um, the effects of, of, of all these mitochondrial peptides really are, um, they're only gonna, they're only gonna work when we're in some sort of metabolic flux.
[01:04:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Sure.
[01:04:40] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Right? And so with any benefits people see with SS-31, you know, on an acute basis over time, um, would only be really done, um, would really only be noticeable if they were, in my eyes, severely out of shape from a cardiac perspective.
[01:05:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:05:01] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And that would have to do with, you know, restoring those bioener- bioenergetics in that, you know, aged or diseased muscle, um- Sure
[01:05:09] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: be it the heart or in skeletal muscle. Um, but again, we don't really know what the acute effects are anyway because the studies are looking at chron- Yeah, it was never studied
[01:05:21] Dr. Mike T Nelson: acutely.
[01:05:22] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: No, they're looking at chronic effects.
[01:05:24] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right.
[01:05:25] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So again, it's all left to speculation. It's all left to pathway stuff. Um, for myself, like I said, you know, I, I, I was confident enough in the pathways and whatnot, and in my level of cardiorespiratory health that I could see a difference if I utilized it.
[01:05:42] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, but the direct effects of SS-31, again, a lot of people that are using SS-31 pre-workout are using MOTS-c.
[01:05:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right.
[01:05:50] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And so again, now we've muddied the water a little further.
[01:05:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep.
[01:05:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And they're probably using NAD+. Yep. Now we've muddied the water a little further, so the experiment is, you know, a, a faulty one, um, to start with when we do that.
[01:06:04] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Uh, but, but at the same time, um, if people are getting benefits from it, it's hard for, for you to, to, to say it doesn't work for them.
[01:06:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[01:06:14] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But here's the thing, that when we're using these compounds, and I've talked about this on other podcasts, um, if we're using something that's gonna amplify AMPK You, if you're using a pre-workout and you're already going into a workout phase that's going to amplify AMPK, then, um, that, that, that, you know, with basically cat- catabolism where we're breaking down glycogen, we're breaking down l- fats, we're, you know, the body's restructuring things, those periods, we gotta be careful that we're not dragging those peptides that are amplifying that into the post-workout period where we actually- Sure
[01:06:50] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: want anabolism to be turned on. Yep. Because we're actually, we're actually exogenously, um, amplifying something that we don't want on.
[01:06:58] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[01:06:58] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Now, MOTS-c, to my best of my knowledge, is permissive, so meaning that, you know, when we turn on mTOR, it, the, the effects of AMPK shut off basically. But within the same, to kind of put another nugget out there, within the same cohorts, if we're talking about bodybuilders and strength training athletes doing this, a lot of them are using metformin too.
[01:07:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:07:22] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Which is also an AMPK activator, a very long half-life, and it's non-permissive. So you can imagine what it, you know, what recovery looks like if we were to stack multiple of these compounds on top of each other and drive AMPK so hard that recovery becomes kind of shitty.
[01:07:43] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[01:07:43] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And we're talk- we're not talking about the acute in between, you know, aerobic phases and, you know, um, anaerobic phases of training.
[01:07:49] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: We're talking about in the post-exercise period. And that's where, you know, I, I think, you know, dosing and timing and everything else may or may not be, you know, and how much stuff you're using, a lot of people use more than one compound, um, may or may not be the, the golden or the, the silver bullet that they're looking for
[01:08:09] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And if you're using testosterone on top of that, especially if you're in a supraphysiologic range, we, we know testosterone, one of the main effects is it's a massive anti-catabolic, right?
[01:08:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: So you might be getting away with some of these effects because you've got anti-catabolic effects of testosterone, where someone else who maybe is not doing that, they might dig themselves a bigger hole because they don't really have anything, air quote, "blocking that" or, or changing that background as much either.
[01:08:41] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: 100%. And that's, and that's where, excuse me, that, that's in, in the bodybuilding space when it transfers into the n- the, the natural athlete space or the natural person space, um, that's where the- that's where we get broken telephone. And, you know, um, even like very low-calorie diets, I know I'm going on a little bit of a tangent here, but even when we see very low-calorie diets in gen pop, um, you know, where we're not using a bunch of ancillary compounds around it, um, that, that major caloric deficit will drive m- you know, metabolic adaptations that are going to be counter to your progress.
[01:09:21] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And so we see, you know, um, issues with, uh, um, uh, w- testosterone going down. We see thyroid hormone, T3 especially, conversion- Yep ... goes down. And so we get, end up in like an over-training state, um, and in a, in a, in a metabolic adapted s- state and, you know, um, and, and, and that we are actually, for the food we're eating, we're not moving around as much The problem is they'll be like, "Well, this bodybuilder went to the Olympia, uh, you know, and, and she was, uh, on 900 calories or 1200 calories going on the stage."
[01:09:55] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, but she didn't un- she didn't undergo adaptive thermogenesis because what you do is you up the fucking T3 into-
[01:10:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, you're on clenbuterol and God knows what
[01:10:02] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: everything else is ... clenbuterol and everything else. So everything's masked, right? So, so th- Yeah ... those, they don't transfer. You can't transfer the, you know, the fully enhanced, uh, person athlete to the n- normal person.
[01:10:14] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So, you know, when it comes to peptides, at the end of the day, it really, it really comes down to have you used all the measures that you need to, to get yourself into the position that you may see the benefit of utilizing these things. And, you know, it's no different than if people are using BPC-157 for their inflammation or they're using KPV or any of these other compounds.
[01:10:36] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: If you're eating like shit and drinking every weekend and smoking cigarettes, there's a high chance that those perturbations are gonna be much more, um, detrimental on your health than anything you can give it to try and mask that detriment. You gotta clean your side of the street up first, and that's the only way you're gonna see the, you know, the bang for your buck if it exists.
[01:10:59] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Last question, you can give a short answer on this too, is any thoughts on SLU-PP-332, which is supposedly a exercise mimetic? This could be a whole podcast and we'll have you back again, but I got lots of hate mail originally 'cause I pulled, I think there's only four rat studies, and I was asking, I'm like, "Why are these doses so low?"
[01:11:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Because even if you just do an animal equivalent, which, again, has its issues, I'm not an animal researcher, you don't even come out to the same ballpark. And it seemed like, again, it was specced off of the compound because the compound was very expensive. And then, of course, the internet lost its mind and you had people doing incredibly high doses and saying, "This is the best thing ever," and...
[01:11:44] Dr. Mike T Nelson: But at the end of the day, we, we don't have any human equivalent dosing. We're making extrapolations from animals.
[01:11:52] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, from a couple studies.
[01:11:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, from a handful of studies too.
[01:11:55] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, and, and it's funny too because, uh, you know, tho- those studies were very, very high milligram ranges. Um- Yes ... and, and, and, and, uh, when, uh, um, SLU first came out, everybody was using 500 micrograms.
[01:12:08] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right, micrograms.
[01:12:09] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Micrograms.
[01:12:10] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Micrograms.
[01:12:11] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: A half of a milligram.
[01:12:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right.
[01:12:15] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And that's was, that was the cost thing, right?
[01:12:17] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:12:17] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And then, and then they were like, "Oh, this stuff works like a charm," and then people were like, "I don't, I don't notice anything." And then they were like, "Oh, we need to up the dose," so then the prices came down, doses went up to, like, 500 milligrams.
[01:12:27] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah. And away we go, right? But, um, you know, I, I don't, uh, a lot of the exercise mimetics that are, you know, touted to be fat burning compounds and all these different things, they've never really worked out. Um- I mean,
[01:12:42] Dr. Mike T Nelson: pharma doesn't have a single one that's FDA approved yet that I know of. I... And they've been trying for decades.
[01:12:48] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, the... And, and, and with, with SLU, I, I've, I, I'm, uh, I, you know, definitely not one that I've seen the benefits to people, the people that do believe in it, um, see. And, you know, I'll, I get pushback from this stuff all the time. I work with peptide guys, you know, I, you know, I'm, I, I, like, I, I, I really, like I said, I'm, I'm very, very pro peptide.
[01:13:09] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But at the same time, a lot of the other compounds that come in, they're not even peptides for half of them. They're, they're small molecules. Um-
[01:13:15] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right, and that's a small molecule technically. Yeah,
[01:13:17] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: exactly. And so, so it's like we're not even in the same fucking pharmacological ballpark. Um, they just get mixed in there and, and, you know, you go on these sites and they, they sell all kinds of stuff, so.
[01:13:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I, at some point when I have more money, maybe we'll get together. I would love to take samples of slough from different sites and send it for analysis, 'cause I have this suspicion that even more so than other peptides, I just have this sneaky suspicion that an incredibly high percentage of it is fake.
[01:13:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I don't know. That's just my, my gut reaction
[01:13:55] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: to looking at it. And that, well, that's, you know, that's another problems is we don't really, like, that, you know, u- unless you've got your finger on the pulse of testing and everything else, um, you don't, we don't really know w- what these, you know, what different sites are selling.
[01:14:08] Dr. Mike T Nelson: No.
[01:14:09] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, and that's, you know, that's another black box that is, you know, y- you risk for your research. Um, there are obviously, like, there's testing companies. Januszek is one of them. Mm-hmm. That's the main one that does it. Um, but you gotta do your homework a little bit through that. You gotta work through a little bit of quagmire when you're, when you're figuring that out because, um, a lot of peptide, um, manufacturers manufacture for multiple different companies.
[01:14:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep.
[01:14:32] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And so a lot of times, you know, you might, you might have a, um, a COA or, you know, some sort of analysis, um, on their site, and it may or may not match up with what's actually on the Januszek site to check if it was actually really done. Yeah. There's been lots of people playing around with those and doing all kinds of stuff, so it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really, you, can be a black box if you don't, if you don't know what you're doing and you haven't consulted with actually someone who does, which, you know, hard to weed through that too.
[01:15:01] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yep.
[01:15:02] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, then really, yeah, you are, you're, you're operating in the dark And so, you know, you gotta, you gotta understand that these are, these are experiments you're doing on yourself. And as far as I'm concerned, you know, in the, the world of performance and performance enhancement, um, I love pushing the body as far as it can go.
[01:15:19] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: I've done it all my life. Um, but at the same time, the work has to be done. There's, uh... You know, uh, if we look at bodybuilding, you know, we got, we got... You can buy pretty much anything online now that a bodybu- In fact, i- beyond that, sleep aids, everything.
[01:15:36] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, yeah.
[01:15:36] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And, um, the bodybuilding, uh, population, the, the success of the top guys at the Olympia, when you really compare them to the people that before we had all that stuff, there's not that big of a difference.
[01:15:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:15:52] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: You know? And I've talked about this with old bodybuilders a lot of times. It's like, you know, with everything we have access to, you know, with the information and all the stuff, why have people not tripled in size or tripled in leanness? You know, we do see better, um, you know, drier, drier physiques.
[01:16:09] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: We do see everything, everything that we, you know, we expect with time.
[01:16:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[01:16:13] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But with time and the access to all these miracle things, um, we're not seeing, you know, superhumans come out of this that are 500 pounds you know, lean. It just doesn't, doesn't work that way.
[01:16:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and the, the freaks are always gonna be freaks, like with drugs, without drugs.
[01:16:29] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, you go back and look at pictures of Lee Priest when he was 17. That's right. You know, and according to him, he didn't take any drugs or anything at that point, which looking at that picture is actually hard to believe. But then you s- you see the before and after. I think he was using performance-enhancing drugs for just eight months, and you see the before and after of that, and you're like, "Holy shit, maybe he was telling the truth," you know?
[01:16:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, responders, eh? Like, it's, it's unbelievable. Whoa. Yeah. And yeah, we d- we actually did a po- um, I do the IFBB, um, Ask Me Anything podcast with the guys. Yeah. And it, it's funny 'cause we've, we've talked about this, these, like, you know, um, genetics and how they play a role. And, you know, it's funny 'cause no one really knows their genetics until they push their body.
[01:17:14] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, until you start doing something.
[01:17:16] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Right? And so people can talk about, oh, a, a person's a genetic phenom or whatever, but everybody's putting in the work. Like, you know, and that's the other thing is like, are the genetic phenoms from a, you know, a physiological perspective where, you know, they can turn on muscle protein synthesis with just looking at a protein tub?
[01:17:33] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:17:33] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Or are they genetics where they just have like a, a brain that doesn't feel pain when they're training or they, you know, th- they've trained themselves so well that they're able to push and eat and do all... Like it's, it's a multifactorial experiment you do on yourself building muscle. Yeah. Like mine was that I could eat.
[01:17:49] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Like I outgrew all my buddies just purely because I could eat. They were s- they were like leaner, they were stronger, but I could grow muscle faster 'cause I could eat two freaking giant submarine sandwiches before I came into the gym and drink- ... a gallon of chocolate milk when I was 17 years old. And do legs without throwing up, so.
[01:18:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And
[01:18:06] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: then you have
[01:18:06] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: the- Yeah, no, it's a, you, you can't, you can't, you can't win ... you have the genetics
[01:18:08] Dr. Mike T Nelson: to resist side effects too of... Because you, and you do blood work on a lot of the top guys, and I've done some blood work on, on enhanced people, and I've seen people on very small amounts of stuff just HDL whacked, hor- stuff just c- completely sideways.
[01:18:27] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I've seen people on a ton of shit and thinking their blood work is gonna be a fucking nightmare, and you see it and you're like, "How? Th- you must have sent in someone else's blood work. There's no way this is yours." Like, "Yeah." You're like, "How, how is this possible?"
[01:18:45] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yep. See it all the time. Exact- exactly.
[01:18:47] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And that's, you know, a- and that's the big divider in how long someone's gonna stay in the sport. Um-
[01:18:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah ...
[01:18:52] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: and I like using bodybuilding as an example because I don't, I don't think there's any other sport where like other, like, you know, other than breaking bones on, you know, dirt bikes and doing extreme sports.
[01:19:02] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, but in terms of bodybuilding, like you can only go so far with it and then the, you know, the snowball effect gets so big that, you know- Yep ... you, you're gonna fucking die or you gotta quit. And yeah, and the la- the labs are, uh, like they're, they are across the board, you can't even predict what they're gonna be by looking at a person.
[01:19:21] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:19:22] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: You know? It is what it is. Um, and, you know, but, but, but in that, in that industry, i- it's, you know... I, I, I tried to escape bodybuilding so many times. Um, uh- But the industry, it, it's a business now. It's a really big business, and a lot of these guys have workplace injuries. Yep. And, you know, I've- I'm good enough at what I do that I can pull them out of these workplace injuries quite well.
[01:19:48] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: But also, you know, using the psychosocial stuff that I do with them, I also tell them, like, "Are there any other sports that you really enjoy?"
[01:19:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. '
[01:19:54] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Cause I only, I only see a couple more, a couple more Olympias coming out of this, and then we're gonna either be on a dialysis machine or, you know, getting bypass surgery.
[01:20:03] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: So, you know, start thinking about it.
[01:20:05] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. I know you gotta go train legs, so I really appreciate everything. And, uh, yeah, tell us all where we can find more about you. I know you've got- you've been on a whole bunch of podcasts. I know you're on the Bodybuilding Podcast.
[01:20:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You've got great stuff on Instagram. You've got a whole bunch of new programs coming out. Uh, give us the, the rundown there.
[01:20:24] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Yeah, so you can find me, um, on all the socials at drdnjackson. Instagram's my main page. I pretty much post everything from there, so if anybody wants to reach out to me, they can DM me there.
[01:20:34] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: And I've got a podcast called The Vitality Manifesto Podcast, which, Mike, I'm gonna get you on once I start doing Yeah, for sure ... the monthly one. And, um, and, uh, I've got a, I've got, you know, I formulate for multiple different companies for supplements and all kinds of stuff like that. So reach out to me if you have any questions.
[01:20:50] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Um, I probably can give you some sort of an answer anyway.
[01:20:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I'd highly encourage everyone to check out all your stuff, and thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. This was great.
[01:21:01] Dr. Dwayne N. Jackson: Thanks, Doc. Appreciate it.
[01:21:02] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Thank you.