Peptides are everywhere right now, but most of what's sold online as BPC-157 or TB-500 is illegal — and the FDA is about to decide what happens next. Attorney Rick Collins, a leading defense lawyer in this space, breaks down the science, the gray market, and why the military's new testosterone screening policy matters too.
Rick Collins, Esq., NSCA-CSCS, is a lawyer who defends the nutrition and fitness community, a partner at Collins Gann McCloskey & Barry PLLC, and General Counsel to the International Society of Sports Nutrition.
Peptides are everywhere right now, but most of what's sold online as BPC-157 or TB-500 is illegal — and the FDA is about to decide what happens next. Rick breaks down the science, the legal gray market, and why the military's new testosterone screening policy matters too.
Expect to learn what actually counts as a "peptide," how GLP-1 drugs normalized injectable medications and fueled the gray market, what the FDA's own scientists concluded about BPC-157 and TB-500, why Rick's caseload has shifted from steroids to 80-90% peptide cases, what a possible "experimental peptide" middle-ground category could look like, and what really happens when the FDA raids a peptide seller, and much more.
Connect with Rick:
www.RickCollins.com
Episodes you'll enjoy next:
#371 — Peptides, TRT, GLPs & Bloodwork: How to Do It Safely (and What Most People Miss) with John Gorman: Listen here
#319 — Exploring the World of Peptides with Anthony Castore: Listen here
Episode Timestamps:
4:07 Rick's background as a lawyer and his standard legal disclaimer
6:14 What actually counts as a "peptide"
8:25 How GLP-1 drugs normalized injectable medications
10:44 Loss of trust in the FDA fuels the gray market
11:46 The rise of personal health autonomy
13:40 Two markets: the medical model vs. "bro science"
16:23 Inside the FDA Compounding Advisory Committee meeting
19:23 FDA scientists' verdict on BPC-157 and TB-500
20:49 Why the science on BPC-157 is still so thin
22:07 Prohibition logic: the black market will keep growing
25:47 A possible middle ground: an "experimental peptide" category
32:11 Rick's caseload shift — from steroids to 80-90% peptide cases
35:30 Why big pharma cares about tirzepatide and retatrutide knockoffs
42:28 Pete Hegseth and testosterone screening in the military
46:57 Why the new TRT policy may be "much ado about nothing"
49:23 Low testosterone's real, well-documented health risks
52:26 Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, and biohacking against nature
57:12 The schism between orthodox medicine and biohacking
62:39 What happens when the FDA raids a peptide seller
63:30 Connect with Rick Collins
Flex Diet Podcast — Episode 396
Rick Collins, Esq., NSCA-CSCS — Peptides as “Research Chemicals”: The Science and the Law
Speakers: Dr. Mike T. Nelson (host), Rick Collins (guest)
[0:00] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Mike T. Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things to increase muscle, improve performance, improve body composition, do all of it within a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today on the podcast, a good buddy, Attorney Rick Collins, and we’re talking all about, uh, peptides, the legality of them, what you should know about them, what’s going on in the peptide world, uh, what’s going on in also other, uh, things such as testosterone being used for TRT, TRT potentially in the military, and a whole lot more.
[0:42] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I also wanted to get this podcast out as soon as possible, so you’ll see this one showing up during the week instead of the usual Monday. Reason for that is, as we talk about in this podcast, there’s an FDA-FDA Pharmacy Compounding Advisory Committee meeting, I know it sounds really exciting, uh, that is happening this Thursday and Friday, July 23rd to the 24th.
[1:08] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So depending on when you’re listening to this, you might still be able to tune into this. If it’s after that fact, then it should be saved on YouTube, and you should be able to watch the rebroadcast. So on Thursday the 23rd, they’re slated to talk about the peptides, uh, BPC-157, KPV, TB-500, and MOTC. Friday they’re slated to talk about DSIP, Sesmax, and Epitalon, and they’re trying to decide, in short, how the FDA is gonna classify these and maybe allow licensing to compounding pharmacies to prepare them as individual prescriptions.
[1:48] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Um, so I wanted to mention it, uh, because Rick and I talk a fair amount about that live stream coming up, and if you’re really into peptides, probably worth, uh, worth checking that out. So, uh, all about peptides and more with Attorney Rick Collins here. Make sure to check out all of Rick’s stuff. Uh, it’s wonderful.
[2:07] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: He’s got Instagram. We’ll put all those links down below. If you want more stuff from me, check out my newsletter. It’s the best bet. You can hop on for free, miketnelson.com/newsletter. And without further ado, enjoy this conversation with a good buddy, Rick Collins.
[2:24] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Let’s see. Does that sound any better or not? That sounds completely better. Okay. Uh, yeah, that was, that was some weird stuff, but, uh- Yeah… but it’s- Let me do this just to, uh… It’s not picking up my other microphone, but let’s try this. Okay. All right. Well, eh, we’ll use this guy. I don’t know what’s going on.
[2:56] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: How are you? Okay. No, good. How are you? I’m good. I’m just turning my phone off here. Summer’s going well? Yeah, the summer is good, but much better than last summer, which was, uh, the summer of my recovery after my, uh- Yeah… my botched skydive. Oof. So, uh, so things are much better. Um, so that’s, that’s a good positive.
[3:19] Rick Collins: Yeah, how are things with you? Yeah, it’s been going, it’s been going good. Um, yeah, just, uh, I’ll be actually in, uh, doing the Table Talk podcast with Dave Tate next week. Um- Oh, very cool. I’ve done that. Yeah, yeah. It’s a good- Yeah, I know you’ve been on there, like, once or twice- They, it’s-… I think you’ve been on there.
[3:36] Rick Collins: Yeah, and it, it, c- you know, he- it’s a long podcast. Yeah, yeah. So we’ll, we’ll keep you there, you know, so, you know, go to the bathroom before you, uh, you start the, uh- Yeah. Now, how long do you want to run today? What’s your typical time? Uh, I’m good for, like, a little bit over an hour. Does that work for you?
[3:51] Rick Collins: That’s, that works fine. Yep. That’s good. Great. Yeah, my thought was just- So-… you know, talk about some peptides and some of the legality stuff going on and, um, yeah, just kind of go from there. There’s so much going on. We could spend hours, but you’ve got sort of the peptides issue. Now you’ve got the TRT in the military issue.
[4:09] Rick Collins: Yeah, and I just saw- You know-… that. I was gonna ask you about that. So, yeah, you got, you got a lot going on in the, in the wellness… And, and I just saw today something, uh, you know, this week it came out that some of the, the GLPs may slow down biological aging. Um- Oh, I didn’t see that one. Yeah. It’s, it’s out there now.
[4:30] Rick Collins: Huh. It was in a, it was in a very select population of people- Sure… with HIV. Uh- Okay. Interesting… but it was, I think, like a 9%, um… I guess they look at the telomeres or whatever, and- Yeah… um, it appears like, you know, very preliminary and, you know, nobody, I think at this point, is gonna prescribe it for anti-aging off-label, but, um, but it’s, it’s exciting stuff going on.
[4:56] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Cool. Well, I’ll just do a short pause and, uh, we’ll just get into it. Sounds like a plan. Awesome. Welcome to the podcast, Rick. How are you doing? I’m well. Good. Thanks for having me on, Mike. Well, thank you so much. It was very nice to see you again at ISSN, as always. So always a fun time there. Always good.
[5:16] Rick Collins: Uh, I think next year, uh, and I think Joey put me on the, uh, speaking roster, so I’ll- Oh, nice… I’ll be back up and speaking again. I’ve spoken there many years. But, um, but yeah, it was great to see you, and that’s always a great event, so anybody who’s interested in, uh, in nutrition and health and, and sports and, you know, wellness can certainly join us each June.
[5:37] Rick Collins: I think, where is it next year? Is it in, uh, Palm Beach or, uh, Jupiter? It’s slightly- Jupiter… Jupiter, I think, if I remember right. Yeah. I could be wrong on that, but that sounds right. Jupiter in June. Jupiter in June. There you go. Awesome. And one of the things we were chatting about is just it seems like peptides are everywhere there now, and it was…
[5:59] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Y- you know, I first heard about ’em, oh, man- I heard about BPC maybe like eight years ago- Mm-hmm… and it was just kind of a new, and the first time I heard it I was like, “Oh, what are you talking about?” And then you kinda pulled some of the early research, and you know, through a physician I had probably a fair amount of people use them over the years.
[6:17] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Um, unfortunately that source kind of dried up and- Mm… it was kind of like a last resort. Like, “Hey, we’ve tried everything for your joint pain and-” You know, anecdotally, 60% of the people were like, “Oh my God, this is the greatest thing I’ve ever done.” And like 40% were, “I can’t notice any difference at all.”
[6:37] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Same docs- Yeah… same source, same protocol. Again, different people, different joint locations- Right… et cetera. And now I’ve got- Right… you know, my buddy of mine who does a lot of powered paragliding is like, “Yeah, my friends are selling them out of their van now. You know anything about these peptides?” I’m like, “What?”
[6:53] Rick Collins: Yeah, you’re seeing a lot of that. Yeah. So, um, well first, thanks for having me on- Yeah… on the show. And, um, for those of you who may not know me, I’m, uh, I’m a lawyer, um, primarily, and, uh, most of my practice is in the space of health and wellness, so I’ve probably represented more athletes, non-athletes, physicians, wellness practitioners, and others in matters involving hardcore health and fitness.
[7:25] Rick Collins: So I’ve probably handled more steroid defense cases than any other lawyer by far. Um, and, and lately, uh, I’ve been dealing a lot with peptide cases, uh, typically research chemical, um, context peptides. And so, um, obviously my, my standard legal disclaimer as, as you know, is always nothing I say is legal advice or medical advice, or creates a, a, fy- a, um, lawyer-client, uh, relationship by just watching the podcast.
[8:02] Rick Collins: It’s for legal information and, and informational purposes. So, um, when it comes to peptides, uh, that’s sort of the latest, um, uh, array of products in the research chemical space, and I’ve been working in this space for many years as a defense lawyer in situations where people sell chemicals, not for human use, wink, wink, uh, and, and for research purposes, research being kind of a term of art, uh- For your pet rat at home
[8:34] Rick Collins: suggesting, I suppose, yeah, that you have a pet rat or you’re doing something with beakers and test tubes or, or some- in your ba- in your mother’s basement or something. But, um, so, so that is something that the FDA has always viewed as fraud. So, you know, peptides now, uh, like you said, I don’t think you can walk on a, on a so- a kid’s soccer field without having several moms who are- Yeah
[9:00] Rick Collins: talking about peptides, and, and golf dads. And when we say peptides, it’s w- Talking about small chains of amino acids, building blocks of protein, but it includes lots of stuff, right? I mean, the term peptide can mean everything from different types of collagen supplements, right? Dietary supplement products can be peptides.
[9:24] Rick Collins: And a growth hormone, for example, is a peptide. Yep. Exactly. And the new GLP-1 weight loss drugs, right? Ozempic, and Wegovy, and Zepbound, and those are all peptides as well. And, and I think that the, uh, you know, popularity of those products for weight loss now has kind of driven the train to some degree for just accepting other types of peptides.
[9:53] Rick Collins: But when we talk about peptides in this context, mostly we’re talking about peptides that are injectable and that are not approved by the Food and Drug Administration. So we’re talking about peptides like BPC-157, or TB-500, or MOTS-c, or a whole roster… Um, GHK-Cu, the copper peptide. A whole roster of different chemical compounds that are peptides, that are injected for health purposes, or purportedly for health purposes, but have not typically undergone much in the way of research, and certainly the kind of research that we at ISSN always talk about- Mm-hmm
[10:43] Rick Collins: which is double-blind, placebo-controlled human clinical studies. Not a lot, you know, if any, on most of these, these peptides. So it’s somewhat of a buyer beware if you’re buying them online from somebody, uh, who’s got a website like peptidesforyou.com or something, uh, or the guy who’s selling it out of the trunk of his car-
[11:11] Rick Collins: at the local health club. Yeah, and do you think the popularity of some of the GLPs and the fact that those are mostly injection… I know there’s obviously an oral compound that just came on the market. But do you think that’s kind of normalized more of a rise in peptides? Because if you would’ve asked me a couple years ago and said, “Yeah, in the future there’s gonna be people by injection doing lots of crazy peptides,” I would’ve been like, “No, not by injection.
[11:43] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like oral, maybe, to mass population, not hardcore athletes.” But I think maybe like the Wegovys and things like that have kind of normalized injection more than ever before. Yeah. I think that’s completely true. I think that 15 years ago, if you said that there’s some medication or drug that you would need to inject into your stomach through a, through a needle, um, most people would say, “Get out of here,” you know?
[12:13] Rick Collins: Yeah. I think in- injectable drugs was mostly for diabetics and drug addicts- Yeah… for many, many years, uh, most of our lives. Um, but I do think that that changed. Maybe the beginning of the acceptance of testosterone replacement therapy- Sure… for men, um, got sort of de-stigmatized the needle. Uh, but certainly the popularity of, of the GLP drugs when suddenly men and women were realizing that this is a tiny little, you know, tiny, tiny little needle and that, um, it’s, uh, it, it can be injected and it’s, it’s not as scary and, and terrible as, as it was stigmatized to be.
[12:59] Rick Collins: I think that definitely paved the way for injectable drugs in general, and we may see big pharma now kind of thinking about more injectable drugs that probably would never have been explored or invested in 15 years ago, but now we’re seeing it. The other thing I think that’s paving the way, particularly for the unapproved peptides, is that I think that there’s been somewhat of a loss of credibility in, in some circles- Mm
[13:30] Rick Collins: for the traditional sources of health information, whether it’s the FDA or the World Health Organization or others. In the last few years, I think rightly or wrongly, a lot of people have lost faith in the credibility of those traditional sources of information and the kind of mainstream media that is the funnel into the public for those sources.
[13:56] Rick Collins: So what, you know, 10 years ago or 15 years ago if, if you had said to somebody, “I’m gonna give you a drug to inject,” and the FDA hasn’t approved it- I think people will have- Oh, what are you doing? Sure, right? Um, but now I think there’s a body of the population that says, “Okay, that, that’s a, a positive.” If the FDA has not approved it, it, it either means it works or that it is, um, it probably, uh, more beneficial than some of the drugs that FDA is trying to, um, green light or, or push on the public.
[14:32] Rick Collins: And so I think that’s been a change. And then I think there’s also a change in the last few years where people are more into personal health autonomy, I think, than they’ve ever- Mm-hmm… been before. Agree. I think there was a long stretch of time where you listen to your doctor, and what, what your doctor told you was what you did.
[14:54] Rick Collins: And if the doctor didn’t tell you to do it, th- then it wasn’t really on the radar screen. Um, but Western medicine, I think, has some deficits when it comes to just people who are generally healthy, feel good overall, but wanna maybe live longer or be more robust or, or vital or feel better or look better.
[15:16] Rick Collins: And Western medicine is great if you’ve got a broken leg or if you’ve got… you know, if you need a stent. But if you just want to feel better and look better and, and, you know, or try to do those things, your doctor may not be the best source of information for that. And I think a lot of people have come to that conclusion.
[15:38] Rick Collins: So you’ve now got this sort of alternative wellness market of biohacking and, you know, people who are, who are exploring non-conventional, alternative, um, ways of feeling better, looking better, or maybe living longer. Yeah. I feel like there’s, it’s kind of economics 101. I think you’re right that there was a, a demand for this area, and again, it gets filled by some people who are very legitimate, who decide…
[16:09] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: You know, I know several people who were MDs, who went to cash-only practice, got themselves very well-educated, you know, in the new areas ’cause of their background. And then you’ve got other people who are like, “Well, I don’t know, I did my weekend cert. Uh, I, I can tell you-… about peptides, bro.” Right. Right.
[16:26] Rick Collins: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s caveat emptor, right? Um, and, and so, you know, certainly, I can look at those in two different buckets, I guess. You’ve got the, the medical model that involves peptides now, which has some issues with it because- Sure… there are some states that are disallowing doctors from prescribing peptides- Mm
[16:49] Rick Collins: to patients in that state. Alabama most recently. Alabama. So, so you’ve got these, these gatekeepers and, and, uh, you know, guardrails that are bidding- being put up, uh, at the state level even while some folks in the government, including RFK Jr., seem to be very pro-peptide. And, uh, we can talk about a hearing that’s gonna- Yeah
[17:12] Rick Collins: take place, the, the, uh, Pharmacy Compounding Advisory Committee, uh, meeting next, next week. But so you’ve got that sort of medical model where there is some physician oversight and some initial monitor- uh, testing, monitoring, uh, dosing information, uh, even though there’s, there’s really not a lot of solid evidence on what proper dosing should be because of not having these- Yeah
[17:40] Rick Collins: sort of, um, extensive clinical trials that, that would be required for that. But then we’ve got the sort of other market, which is what you’re describing as, “I know about peptides, bro.” And, and that is, uh, a little bit more risky, and there are even some people in that community, and I know them, who are very knowledgeable- Oh, for sure
[18:58] Rick Collins: extremely knowledgeable about peptides, for sure. Um, but- A lot of those products come from China, um, with COAs, you know, certificates of analysis, which may or may not be accurate. In some cases, there’s no third-party testing, so you really don’t have quality, um, or contamination issues that are… or, or even, like, confirmation.
[18:25] Rick Collins: Is the dose exactly what it’s supposed to be? Is it underdosed? Is it overdosed? Or is it even not the peptide that’s on the label? So you don’t… You know, you… There’s, there’s no certainty on some of that. Um, and so, you know, so we’ve got this market that’s exploded now, um, where there are millions of people who are using these, whether you wanna call them gray market or, or straight up black market products that are without any medical oversight and sometimes without any supervision or, or contraindication screening or any of the, the stuff, um, with questionable dosing information that, that is problematic.
[19:09] Rick Collins: I mean, that’s not really the market that we would want to encourage. And so for, for that reason, I think the FDA has convened a meeting next week, uh, which will be, uh, live on YouTube, and so you can- Oh, interesting… you can sign on and watch it. They just extended the hours. It’s gonna start at 8:00 in the morning on the July 23rd, which is, like, uh, next Thursday, and it’s gonna run till after 6:00 PM.
[19:39] Rick Collins: So bring your popcorn and-… um, you know, uh, you know, meal prep for it because it’s gonna be a long day of review of what is the science, the safety, the efficacy of all these different peptides, and it’s gonna include BPC 157 and TB 500. And so- Um, you’re gonna have… I, I think you can expect you’re gonna hear some, some very different positions.
[20:08] Rick Collins: You’re gonna hear from people who are very pro-peptide and think that instead of having the, “Hey bro, my peptides are in the trunk of my car. What do you need?” That, that there should be more accessibility through a medical model, that the rules, the, the prohibitions against prescribing peptides by healthcare practitioners should be lowered so that the people with informed consent and with, with oversight of quality control can access, if they want, through a doctor, these different peptides for healing purposes.
[20:50] Rick Collins: And, and like you, I’ve heard stories of people who say, “I took BPC-157. I had this terrible shoulder pain for a while.” Some of them say, “Yeah, it didn’t really do much,” but a, a lot of them do say, you know, “I, I… It really was, uh, amazing recovery.” Now- Without a placebo-controlled study- Yeah… you don’t really know would it have gotten better anyway.
[21:16] Rick Collins: Um- Yeah… was this a placebo effect? Was, you know… Um, so, so we… without the science. And so I do think that we need to begin really some, some hard science on all of these peptides to be able to support, you know, what works, what doesn’t, what combination of peptides works best, if they do work. Um, what dosing, how long to stay on, when to come off.
[21:42] Rick Collins: You know, all of that we don’t really have hard science on. But what this hearing is to explore is whether we should sort of diminish that gray market of non-medical research use only, wink, wink, uh, not for human use, wink, study, you know, uh, uh, available market, and instead, um, study and make available a, a medical model.
[22:09] Rick Collins: Now, you are gonna hear, and you may have seen, the FDA rank and file scientists are not on board with- No, they didn’t seem too happy about it. No. No, and they actually… You can access online, and, and anybody who wants to kinda know more deeply what’s going on can follow me on social media on my Instagram page at rickcollinsesq, rickcollinsesq on Instagram.
[22:34] Rick Collins: I try to post as much as- Yeah, that’s all good stuff… I can about the specifics. Um, but FDA did, the science folks at FDA, uh, did an analysis and evaluation of BPC and of TB-500, and concluded that there is insufficient evidence of safety or efficacy to justify any relaxation of the prohibition against doing this, uh, or to allow these things to be made in a compounding pharmacy and then prescribed to patients.
[23:10] Rick Collins: They’re against it. Um, so you’re probably gonna hear that perspective as well as the, you know, very pro-peptide perspective in, in this meeting next week. Yeah, it’ll be super interesting. And again, I kind of one hand understand the FDA’s approach, that if you go by the current data, even on BPC, which in terms of non-FDA approved peptides probably has more data than a lot of the other ones- Mm-hmm
[23:35] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: um, it’s basically from one lab in Croatia, if I remember right. Mm-hmm. It’s kind of from one group. It’s mostly older data. It’s animal work. And some of it is kind of impressive if you look at the animal work, but like you said, at some point we need actual human subjects trials, randomized, placebo-controlled, all those good things.
[23:53] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Or even with preclinical work, you wanna see it from multiple labs running a similar setup, that they find similar results and… Yeah, and right now we just don’t have a lot of that, which also begs the question, who’s gonna do that research? Like, who’s gonna fund it? How are you gonna get it done? How are you going to accumulate that data?
[24:14] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: ’Cause then in one scenario, I’m kind of- As much as I would be against it from more of a libertarian point of view, the FDA’s saying, “Okay, we’re gonna wait on these things, but in the next one or two years we’re gonna spend a boat ton of money, we’re gonna try to figure out are these things, uh, efficacious?
[24:31] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: What are the human subjects trials?” And actually try to get an answer. But historically, that doesn’t seem to happen. It’s like, “Well, we’ll push it under the rug. Someone’ll do the research, and we’ll- Right, right… just kinda kick the can down the road.” Yeah, and so the longer the can gets kicked down the road for a legitimate pathway for- Yep
[24:53] Rick Collins: a medical model for people, uh, the bigger the black market is going to grow. It’s gonna be huge. Right? Yeah. And so, like you said before, economics 101. If there’s demand, there’s gonna be supply. So if there’s no legitimate supply, then there’s gonna be an alternative supply. And I am not sure that there’s any way of getting the toothpaste back into the tube at this point.
[25:16] Rick Collins: No, I don’t think so. You know? These, you know, there are, there are people all over America who love their peptides and, and they’re, they’re gonna use them, and they’re, if the, if they can’t get them from a doctor, they’re gonna get them from an alternative source. You know? Um, and y- look, you know, the li- you said libertarian, and, you know, I’m, uh, certainly there’s, there’s, a, a lot of my ideology is that people should be free to do what they want with their own bodies, right?
[25:48] Rick Collins: Yeah. Agree. My body, my choice should expand to a lot of healthcare issues. And as long as there’s no false claims or misrepresentations- Yeah… so if, uh, obviously if somebody’s marketing a product saying, “This is gonna cure your cancer”-… um, you know, that’s, that sort of fraud is something that we need to m- not allow, obviously.
[26:09] Rick Collins: But if people are properly informed, and they’re mature adults, and the, the products are what they purport to be, and are free of contaminants and, and, you know, uh, you’ve minimized those sorts of, uh, you know, harms- You know, I, I think people should be able to make their own health decisions and choices, even if they’re not the best health choices, right?
[26:37] Rick Collins: Yeah. We allow people to- We allow smoking… eat in fast food restaurants- We allow alcohol… and to, they eat their way into type two diabetes- Yeah… or give themselves lung cancer with smoking or, you know, um, uh, I’ve done some skydiving, uh, with- Yes… with somewhat mixed results. But, but, but you’re allowed to take these risks because there’s, there’s a, there’s a value socially, uh, societally, in personal autonomy to make your own choices and to assess for yourself what is your risk tolerance in something.
[27:12] Rick Collins: And so, uh, I, I do think that it’s naive and, and maybe even cowardly to continue to kick the can, uh, because you don’t wanna take responsibility for creating some sort of pathway for legitimate medical, uh, model, um, while you watch a more dangerous market of untested, y- you know, potentially contaminated, uh, products to proliferate in, in a way that is, is potentially more harmful.
[27:52] Rick Collins: I think that harm reduction should be an important part of every health policy, right? So, you know, we wanna reduce the dangers. And to continue to deny a, a legitimate pathway when the toothpaste, the tube is empty at this point. Yeah. It’s never going back. So I think it’s, you know, we have to come up with a way of making it as safe as possible, um, and obviously make the access limited to mature adults and, and, you know, pure, um, you know, pr- properly, uh, dosed and uncontaminated products.
[28:33] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Do you think, like, a middle ground could be like a Duchesne law for peptides? Where exactly what you were saying is, okay, we’re not allowing you per se to make any claims, however
[28:51] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: “Hey, this is the amount, it’s sterile, it is what it is. We’re not making claims.” And then do like a, even a simple post-market analysis or something like that of, you can even start with a simple survey of people who took it. What were their results? Like, you don’t- eventually, yes, you do need higher levels of data, but we don’t even have those low level of data.
[29:11] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And I’m sure you’ve seen there’s multiple research pieces showing that a ton of the peptides on the market are, are fake or not dosed right or not even what they say. So even trying to do a simple survey, you’d have to qualify the material that the people are actually even using it to know that the survey- Right
[29:28] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: is even valid. Yeah, that’s… Y- I think you, you’re right on the money with the suggestion of some sort of a middle ground, some new category- Yeah… that is neither a supplement nor a drug, but is sort of an experimental peptide category that, uh, would have certain guardrails, uh, attached in terms of claims, in terms of, uh, purity, in terms of, uh, you know, uh, identity.
[29:59] Rick Collins: All, all of the things that, you know, maybe even a, a stricter set than, than even what is in the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act for supplements. Mm-hmm. Um, but, um, but to allow that to, you know, um, happen, uh, at least with supplements, required an act of Congress, right? Yep. Yep. So then the question-
[30:23] Rick Collins: becomes, you know, good luck with that. Good luck with all that recently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it seems like to me, that would be, again, no small lift in the current environment. But to me- Right… it seems like that would be an… I would be happy with that as a nice middle ground. So at least people are doing…
[30:43] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And again, back to being educated, so part of the money would be spent on education. “Okay, here’s what’s actually on the studies. Okay, if you are taking this- Exactly. Yep… you know that this is actually the, the legit compound. And if you’re injecting stuff- Right… oh, yeah, shocker, it’s actually sterile now, where before we don’t even know that.
[31:01] Rick Collins: Right. Exactly. I think that’s, I think that finding that middle ground, and I do think that there are those, uh, in health and human services, including the, you know, uh, including RFK Jr. himself, who I think want to do something along those lines. Mm-hmm. But the mechanics of getting that done- Oh, so hard… is gonna be a very complicated lift in a, in a somewhat, somewhat dysfunctional government.
[31:28] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. ’Cause again, it just, it just seems like it’s gonna continue. You’re gonna be having the FDA back to playing Whac-A-Mole on trying to shut down some, you know, places. And we’ve had even, you know, bigger people just say, “I’m out.” Like, they retired, they closed their doors. I know the FDA has done a raid on, was it Amino Asylum and other places.
[31:52] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: So they have gone- Yes… after some of the- They do. Yes… peptide- And I’ve represented, uh, a number of them, um, probably most of them in some capacity when they do get raided or in trouble or get a warning letter or, you know, have somebody asking about it. Um, and, um, but there’s just so many of these research use only, um, vendors online.
[32:23] Rick Collins: Yeah, another one just pops up somewhere else. Yeah. It’s like, it’s a whack-a-mole. Yeah. There’s just too many. You know, it’s like i- i- if, if everybody– if there’s hundreds and hundreds of cars on the highway doing 75 in a 55, yeah, they’re all breaking the law, but how many are actually gonna get stopped and ticketed?
[32:42] Rick Collins: Probably a small, statistically- Mm-hmm… a small number. And FDA, I think, is, uh, under-resourced in this area. Yeah, they’re way understaffed now, too. Absolutely. And, and I think, you know, look, the, it’s probably the only reason it’s a priority is, is really, I think, because it’s a, um, a problem for big pharma, especially with the GLPs.
[33:06] Rick Collins: Mm-hmm. So if you’re, if you’re selling the, some knockoff of tirzepatide or retatrutide- Retatrutide… which is, you know- Might be quite a while… for those– Right. It’s in phase three trials. Right. It’s probably gonna be re- you know, released and approved for the market by Eli Lilly s- maybe by the end of the year or in the- Yeah.
[33:28] Rick Collins: So, so if, if you’re already using retatrutide, every penny that, you know, you’re paying for it is money that is not going to Eli Lilly, and that’s, that’s certainly a problem, uh, for, for big pharma and, and ultimately, I’m sure, uh, there’s some pressure being put on FDA. I don’t think big pharma is necessarily pro peptide or is pro friendly at this point to healing peptides or the copper peptide for skin rejuvenation, um, because they’re not– there’s no, there’s no monetary, um, you know, value to them.
[34:06] Rick Collins: But if at some point that changed and there was a pathway for big pharma to be involved in this, then you might, you might see a very different approach. Yeah. And I think you were even saying, like, it seems like there’s more emphasis on going after peptide companies than even steroids now compared to what there was in the past.
[34:30] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like, I don’t hear much in the mass media about really much of any enforcement per se, but again, I don’t- Right… follow it super close. No, you’re, you’re, you’re nailing it, um, because for many, many years of my practice, and, uh, I was a prosecutor originally, and I went into- Mm… private criminal practice. And in the very beginning, I did bread and butter criminal defense cases, you know, drugs, street drug sales, and robberies, and burglaries.
[34:57] Rick Collins: Uh, but, but I migrated a little bit in, in the late ’90s into the space of, of the, the steroid trafficking world because I was a competitive bodybuilder myself at one time, and gym manager, health club, uh, instructor, ran a personal training business for a while. So for me, uh, I had a foot in the community, and I, I understood a, a lot of the, you know, the real world aspects of it.
[35:25] Rick Collins: Um, but I also had the training and, and background as a, a trial lawyer. So I was uniquely able to get involved in anabolic steroid cases. I wrote a book called Legal Muscle- Mm-hmm… um, back in 2002, uh, on steroids in American law, and culture, and politics, and medicine, and sports, and every aspect of it. And so for most of my career, I was primarily, uh, defending anabolic steroid cases, growth hormone, other ancillary related bodybuilding drugs.
[35:02] Rick Collins: But over the last year or two, um, I’ve seen a, a shift where I would say that my peptide cases and research use only cases, and physicians who are in some way jammed up because of peptides, um- is probably eight, eight to two or 80% to maybe even- Oh, wow… 90% of my practice now. I had a guy recently, it’s funny you say it, a guy recently told me, um, “Hey, I got this letter.
[36:34] Rick Collins: It’s a, it’s a seizure letter, um, that the government found this, these steroids, uh, coming to me, and they seized them.” And that, I’ve seen that happen over the years. Usually small amounts. They’ll send a seizure notice and, “Hey, if you want your steroids, let us know, otherwise we’re taking them and you’re not gonna get them.”
[36:51] Rick Collins: “You’re probably gonna be put on a watch list-”… if, if you keep ordering steroids.” Um, but this was a kilo of testosterone powder coming from China. Whoa. Which is a, um, which certainly is a, a, a large quantity. That’s not a small amount. It’s not a small amount and, and it’s the, it’s probably the largest a- amount that I’ve seen where they just basically said, “All right, we’re gonna keep it and you’re not gonna get it.”
[37:15] Rick Collins: Um, so yeah. They, they seem to have, uh, really changed their attitude a- and are, uh, really going after the, the research use only peptides much more, and that may be because most of the research only peptide websites are not just selling BPC and TB. Right. They’re selling retatrutide, they’re selling tirzepatide, they’re selling the ingredients that are directly poaching the revenues from big pharma, and I think that’s, that’s maybe where and why the shift in priorities has occurred.
[37:55] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. I was going to some of the peptides, and I got another topic, is if someone is listening to this, and obviously this isn’t medical advice, but they’re like, “You know, I’m convinced I want to try peptides,” any thoughts of where they should go? I mean, my advice, I don’t know if you would agree, would be find a physician who uses them.
[38:16] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: My advice would be probably pay more money to see if they have an actual compounding pharmacy who can actually do legitimate quality control. Yes, you are gonna pay a lot more money, but for something that’s injectable, I would definitely do my due diligence and make sure what I’m getting is actually the, the thing versus- Some guy selling them out of the trunk of their car.
[38:42] Rick Collins: Yeah. Well, yeah, uh, that, that sounds reasonable, right? Um, a- any time that you can reduce the harms, it’s a step in the right direction. So any product that has third-party testing attached to it is gonna be better than a product that has no testing, potentially. Um, any, um, source of, uh, a drug product that has some physician or healthcare practitioner recommendations and directions is probably gonna be better than using Google or ChatGPT- Yeah.
[39:21] Rick Collins: on, on, you know, what you should do. So, you know, yeah, I guess the more legitimate the source, the better because it’s less risks. But, um, but I do think that the, the legitimate sources are still hamstrung- Yeah… because of the, you know, the prohibitions on, you know, w- we haven’t yet had the, the real compounding green light, which is what’s gonna, uh, be discussed next Thursday.
[39:52] Rick Collins: And so I, I do think that making, you know, a, a legitimate medical pathway either by a, a congressional act or in, in some other way if possible is, is really the, the way that we can reduce the harms and explore the benefits. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, ’cause I, I won’t say the name of one company. I tried to… ’Cause I get a lot of requests for peptides and things like that, and I, uh, if people are gonna go that route, I was trying to figure out, okay, is there a better direction I can kind of steer them if they’re hellbent on doing it anyway, you know, re- reduction of harm.
[40:32] Rick Collins: Yeah. But, but even then, like, it’s so hard to vet any of the companies because, like, you know, I went through, I talked to them, I did all the things. I requested all their COAs and blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, I don’t know if these COAs are real. I gotta call the actual lab- Right… that did the testing, and then show the other thing, call that actual lab, follow up.
[41:11] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And even if you do all of that, which is a huge amount of work- Right… how do I know it’s gonna stay in four months, three months, six months from now? Like, I, I don’t know. All, all true. All, all very true. And, and there’s also the, the reality is there are no long-term studies on- Right… safety. Um- Yes… you know, there’s no real long…
[41:13] Rick Collins: There’s, there’s no solid human data on efficacy. Right. So it’s somewhat of a, a Hail Mary and a, you know, a, a just blind faith to a degree, hoping and an- anecdotally hearing stories. But I guess, look, you know, people, uh, have their own level of risk tolerance. And if- Yep… a surgeon is saying, “You know what?
[41:35] Rick Collins: We’re, we’re gonna cut you, and we’re gonna, we’re gonna, you know, do a, a, a bicep tendon repair,” or, you know, and, and surgery certainly has its own risks, right? Yeah. And so, you know, risk of anesthesia, infection, bad results, et cetera. And so I can understand why a person might say, “You know what? I’m gonna try this, even though I know that, uh, there’s very little human data.”
[42:05] Rick Collins: Uh, but, you know, and that I don’t know if it could be a, a problem long-term. And you, you’ve seen the speculation. There are, there are anti-peptide doctors who point out- Mm-hmm… that some of this, um, deals with, uh, increasing the capillary, you know, uh, bringing more blood- Yep… to areas. Angiogenesis. And then maybe, and some, some theory of, you know, that it would fuel some sort of a cancer growth or something like that.
[42:33] Rick Collins: So there’s, there’s speculation about some, some problems. Um, but, but there’s… You know, you have to assess your risks. Yeah. And that’s why I think having some legitimate path to know you’re getting solid product, to actually have research behind it, to have a discussion with someone who has medical training in it, who can help you walk through those, right?
[42:57] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: ’Cause in- Right… exactly in your case, like, okay, my options are I might need a complete total shoulder replacement, or I could try XYZ peptide for eight weeks, and here’s the potential pros, here’s the cons. You know, and then each person can decide, okay, for me as an individual, both my risk tolerance and what I’m facing, okay, let’s try to figure out what’s best in your individual case.
[43:20] Rick Collins: Yeah. I mean, that’s, to me, again, g- jumping back to personal autonomy over your own body, I think that’s, that’s the, the kind of informed mature adult decision-making that public policy should support. Yeah. Yeah. And it just seems like the US being the, having so many freedoms has always had this quandary of, well, how much autonomy do we allow people?
[43:46] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Like-… ah, we don’t want too much. That doesn’t- Right… seem to go well. Right. Exactly. And every time we do prohibition and make stuff illegal, it just goes the complete opposite direction. It just never works that way either. Yeah. No. You know, a- and the Steroid Control Act in 1990- Yeah… is a great example of that, right?
[44:05] Rick Collins: Yep. It was Congress’s way to try to crack down on the use of anabolic steroids in sports and, you know, if, in teens and all this other stuff. And, uh, what it did was it just suppressed the legitimate market in the same way that prohibition of alcohol did in 1920. Yeah. You suppress the legitimate market, and what happens?
[44:26] Rick Collins: The black market balloons. In alcohol, it was Al Capone and bathtub gin- The mob… and people were dying and, you know, organized crime moves in. And with steroids, it was the growth of underground labs and all this, this other stuff, which reduced potentially the quality and safety and increased the risk. So the Steroid Control Act, I’ve always said, uh, it was, uh, backfired because it, it offered less control over the market than existed before.
[44:57] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. I mean, the same thing happened with psychedelics. I mean, how many years of research did we suppress? And now, you know, it’s, it’s still early data, but there’s- Right… some pretty interesting early data showing things like psilocybin are massively beneficial for depression- Right… and other things. And now- Right
[45:14] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: tons of labs are doing, like, very legitimate research on it that, in my opinion, could’ve been done many, many decades before. Yeah, it, the, the process of destigmatizing something that’s been stigmatized takes decades Yeah, long time. Yeah. Um, so recently Pete Hegseth said that the military now is gonna be t- I think, and I only saw a short news clip, so I don’t know the details, is that if you are age 30 or older, they’re gonna run a test for testosterone, and it sounds like TRT may be an option.
[45:53] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Did I get that correct? Yeah, that’s, yeah, uh, um, that’s certainly, uh, a, a huge change and a development. Look, I, I’ve been, you know, involved in the, in the wellness and, and anti-aging, uh, community for many years, and, uh, I, I think that testosterone replacement therapy can, in appropriate- patients can be game-changing.
[46:18] Rick Collins: It’s, it’s- Sure… a wonderful thing for men who need it. Um, and so having your testosterone levels screened as you age, um, is r- I don’t see any problem with having that as part of an annual physical. We screen for your cholesterol, we screen for your thyroid function. Why wouldn’t you screen to make sure you don’t have a, a hormonal problem with, with testosterone?
[46:45] Rick Collins: To me, it’s, it’s a, a, you know, the, the opposition to it is, is s- kind of, uh, you know, uninformed. Um, 30, the, I think the reason that 30 was used as the age cutoff is that there’s long been a, um, understanding based on some studies that at the age of 30 is when there’s a beginning of a gradual diminishment of testosterone levels in men.
[47:15] Rick Collins: And the standard thinking is that it’s about 1% a year after the age of 30. Hmm. So 1% down at 31, another percent down at 32, and that’s using averages. That’s the sort of the common understanding of it. So that’s, I think, why 30 was used. Um, and so if a person has low levels of testosterone, well, one of the remedies for that would be to use supplemental, you know, replacement testosterone for that.
[47:44] Rick Collins: Um, but, but I’ve, I’ve seen, like, a, a lot of backlash. You know, well, a lot of it, I think, is just partisan politics backlash- Sure… of it. We’re living in an age where if the, if the other team is for something, well, you need to be against it. Yeah, yeah. And, and it doesn’t really matter. And this is, this is unfortunately true on all sides of our political- Definitely
[48:06] Rick Collins: debate today. And, and that’s certainly a problem. Um, I’ve also seen, well, this is gender-affirming care for men. Well, no, this has nothing to do with gender-affirming care. And I’ve also seen, you know, somehow it’s a HIPAA violation, and I guess people don’t understand what- No, they don’t… HIPAA is. Yeah. So, um- This is in, in the same way that women may need estrogen as they age, or if you have other, a, a thyroid deficiency and you need levothyroxine, or, you know, this is a, a remedy for a medical issue.
[48:39] Rick Collins: Um, it’s not, you know, uh, affirming anything other than treating something. Um, I’ve also seen, “Well, we’re gonna be forcing men to take testosterone.” Well, that’s not at all what this is. Uh, what the plan as I’ve seen it is, is that after the age of 30, a screening will occur for testosterone, and if you are low in testosterone, well, then you’ll have an option to either go on a testosterone replacement drug or to try to investigate why your levels are low, and maybe there’s some pituitary issue or whatever, or you could just not do it.
[49:15] Rick Collins: So there’s, there’s no, you know, th- this isn’t any sort of a forced or coercive thing. The– I, I think it’s a good step in the right direction to destigmatize testosterone, uh, I think that’s great, and to recognize that testosterone deficiency in men does exist. I think that’s great. The problem with this, and this is the, the downside, is that from a practical perspective, this is probably a tempest in a teapot.
[49:43] Rick Collins: I, I don’t think- Oh, yeah… it has, it has really any major real world ramifications. And the reason is, is that the threshold for the diagnosis of low testosterone that would make you in any way even possibly eligible for this replacement is so low, it is so restrictive that Few of any men in their 30s will probably qualify.
[50:13] Rick Collins: Um, and men in their 40s and 50s, most of them won’t qualify. Their testosterone level won’t be low enough to trigger this, this replacement therapy. Yeah. And- We’re probably just using the hypogonadal cutoff on the bottom end, correct? I think it’s like 264- Yeah… or something like that. Yeah. It’s below 300.
[50:34] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. So, so if, if you’re dealing with such a low, low threshold, very few people will qualify for it. Um, you know, unless you modify, uh, the diagnostic criteria and increase that threshold, maybe with symptoms. Obviously, if, if there’s no symptoms, well, then it’s okay. Maybe, maybe you don’t need to- Yeah
[50:58] Rick Collins: be on testosterone. Um, but if you’re at 300 or 350 and you’re symptomatic, there sh- probably should be more flexibility- Mm-hmm… to make you eligible rather than that hard cutoff. And so my understanding is that that hard cutoff, if it remains in place, is, is really gonna make this, uh, probably much ado about nothing i- in a way.
[51:21] Rick Collins: Um, but, um, but I do like that it’s a, a step in the right direction of destigmatizing the, the hormone itself. Yeah. I mean, I’m, I’m no big fan of the current administration, but I think I would generally agree. I mean, I think it’s a move, uh, in theory, in the right direction. Like, I think military, both during service and after, should have much better medical care than what they currently receive- Sure
[51:49] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: um, which is abysmal. My fear is- Yeah, and that’s, and that’s something that transcends either party. Yeah. This has been going on for decades of, you know, we need to do more for our veterans than, than we do, by far. Um, and that spills over into everything including, you know, homelessness and, and many other issues.
[52:09] Rick Collins: Um, but the one thing I think that, that should be said as well, is that low testosterone is correlated with a whole lot of serious real problems. Oh, for sure. This is not just, oh, you know, and, and most, many people don’t really know that, and they think, oh, it’s, it’s just, you know, we wanna make super soldiers, or we wanna make these, you know, jacked up soldiers or, or something like that.
[52:35] Rick Collins: But the, the science, unlike the science on BPC-157-… or TB-500, the science is abundant on testosterone deficiency and the implications that that has on men’s health, and it’s correlated with a whole host of problems, including heart problems, that, um, that make it so that if you are at very low testosterone levels, you’re in a health danger, and you should investigate how to treat that, how to fix that.
[53:11] Rick Collins: So- Yeah… c- c- congratulations to the military, military for recognizing that, but I think the devil’s gonna be in the details to have it really make a difference. Yeah, and that’s my biggest fear is, okay- Are you doing this off of just one screen? Are these people who have symptoms? Do they not have symptoms?
[53:30] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Are you doing more blood work to see is your LH off? Is it just… You know, ’cause we know, like, super high levels of stress, low calories, like, all these things, if you’re just pulling one single testosterone number after four hours of sleep and a horrible, like, past week, like, you can get some, you know, pretty low numbers.
[54:31] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: It’s debatable are you actually hypogonadal or not. Right. But you can see huge fluctuations in these numbers. Right. Right. And then are you gonna address the other lifestyle issues and other things like that, or is it just the simple option of you either use TRT or not? So I, I don’t know, I just get worried about the, the implementation of how it’s done is not as simple as, “Oh, you were low on one thing.
[54:16] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Take TRT. You’re good for the rest of your life.” Right. Right. Yeah. The devil is always in the details, right? You know. Yeah. Um, and obesity plays a huge role- Sure… in, you know, uh, in our hormone health. Uh, but, but look, y- you know, our testosterone levels in men are gonna decline typically as you age. Yep.
[54:37] Rick Collins: That’s just sort of part of the aging process. And, and this, and this may be an ideological or philosophical thing to, to discuss, but, uh, at what point and, and when does somebody make the choice to not follow what moth- Mother Nature is directing, you know? Mm-hmm. Mother Nature says, look, after the age of having children and raising them until self-sufficiency, you’re kind of a drain on the overall resources, right?
[55:12] Rick Collins: You’re, you’re, you’re really not, uh, doing anything positive from the nature perspective. Nature’s concerned only with one thing, and that is passing the genetic material forward. Pass those genes on to the next generation. It is the gene, you know, uh, uh, Richard Dawkins in the book The Selfish Gene- Mm-hmm
[55:32] Rick Collins: I think did a great job of explaining why nature really doesn’t give a rat’s ass about you as an individual. Nature cares about the payload that you carry, the genetic material you carry, to pass on to your offspring and to their offspring, and keep that moving. Once you’ve done that- You’re kind of no longer needed, and so your teeth fall out, your hair falls out, you gain weight.
[56:01] Rick Collins: You know, all of the things that-… you know, the unpleasant aspects of advanced aging, uh, occur. And I think now we’re i- in a, in a mindset as a society where we’re no longer okay with that, or at least many people aren’t. Mm-hmm. You know, yeah, nature wants me to get old and die and, uh, climb, you know, without complaint into the coffin, but, uh, that’s not necessarily what I think is best for me is, is sort of the attitude, right?
[56:33] Rick Collins: And so if I can take biohacking methods to extend my own health span and lifespan- I don’t care what nature says. And, and so I think that the arguments of, “Well, it’s not natural, it’s not what nature intended,” I think a lot of people now say that’s exactly why it- it’s a good thing, because nature is n- not at all interested in, in me personally.
[57:02] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And I think a lot of it comes down to, like you said, as much as we can have discussions about the physiology and the numbers and everything where you’re at, I think the part that is not discussed enough is the, the philosophy. Like, what is your philosophy upon life? Like, where do you draw certain lines?
[57:21] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Are you okay with part of the aging process, but not certain aspects of it? Are you, “Well, I’m gonna use, you know, medical science to the highest degree to have a much better quality of, of life”? You know, I think those, I think, are the more interesting discussions. Like, like for, for me personally, like I haven’t used TRT, I haven’t used peptides.
[57:43] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: I haven’t really had any reason to, per se, but I also have this conversation with myself of I’m 52 in August, like eight years from now, 20 years from now, I’m not saying I’ll never do it, but just thinking about, okay, what is that sort of cost? Where is that, that line, right? Of, of w- how far would I go to look at other things depending upon, you know, where I’m at.
[58:09] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: On the same thing, I’ve done ayahuasca in Costa Rica a few times and had frog poison stuck in my arm, too. I wouldn’t recommend either one of those to anybody else either- Wow, okay…. in terms of combo. But- Yeah… again, that’s just, I think, a, an individual line that each person, like we’re talking about personal responsibility- Right
[58:27] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: has to decide, okay, I’m okay pushing the risk in kind of this direction for whatever reason. Over here, yeah, I might be a little bit more conservative. And I think that’s- Right… gonna be different across different people. And people should have the option of having those discussions with their physician.
[58:40] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Here’s the pros, here’s the cons, here’s what may happen, here’s what the research says, and at the end of the day, each person can then make their own intelligent decision of what they want to do. Yeah. Well, that, I think that would depend on having physicians that are more holistically, uh- For sure
[59:00] Rick Collins: knowledgeable than, than maybe what Western medicine really trains them on today. Yeah. ’Cause they’re not really trained in that approach. No. They’re, they’re just, they’re just not. No. And it’s not their fault. It’s- No… they spend all this time in medical school to get a, a training in a completely different viewpoint.
[59:18] Rick Collins: Right. To, to learn how to prescribe drugs. Yeah. You know, and, and do surgeries, and, you know, uh, maybe, maybe the pharma focus of medicine. I mean, it’s called medicine, right? I mean- Mm-hmm… the doctors practice medicine. It’s, it’s prescribing drugs. M- maybe there needs to be a broader perspective on healthcare so that maybe, you know, doctors become more knowledgeable in nutrition, and more knowledgeable in some of these other alternative, um, approaches that are not strictly orthodox Western medicine, uh, drug-based models.
[59:58] Rick Collins: And, um, and I think we’d, we’d benefit from that. And I think, you know, that would be a good thing because right now I think there is kind of a, a, a schism where you’ve got Western orthodox medicine, um, taking one side on peptides, taking, taking an anti-testosterone perspective by, historically. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and then you’ve got this more progressive alternative medicine kind of wellness, biohacking community of physicians and other healthcare providers- Sure
[1:00:35] Rick Collins: who are rejecting all of that orthodoxy and are saying, you know, “This is, this is a new model.” And you’re seeing these, these expos and, uh, conventions and conferences, uh, springing up more and more, looking at all of these alternative ways of, of approaching health and fitness that doctors know nothing about and, and kind of take a knee-jerk reaction to be opposed to.
[1:01:04] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And I always just keep thinking, kind of like with the peptides as a solution, that there should be some type of intermediate, right? Because now, like, that intermediate could be filled, like we talked about, with someone who is maybe self-educated, could be extremely knowledgeable. And other people who are like, see this as a bandwagon opportunity to sell peptides and maybe create all sorts of crazy claims.
[1:01:28] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And it seems like- Right… everyone and their brother is looking at blood work now because the cost of blood work has gone down. Which on one hand I think is good, at least some people are being screened. On the other hand, the amount of crazy stuff I see, like from blood panels, I think is just bonkers also.
[1:01:46] Rick Collins: Right, right, right. So we’re still trying to figure out, like, okay, who’s gonna kinda… There’s definitely a need, and who’s gonna fill this need and what does that actually look like, I think is still up for grabs. Yeah. And, and I, I can tell you that a lot of the people who I represent in w- when they get into some sort of, you know, tiff with the government, where the government’s coming after them for some reason or another, in the peptide space, uh, i- doing the research chemical context peptides, are people who started by using peptides themselves- Mm-hmm
[1:02:20] Rick Collins: and they were in that body of folks who were like, “This is the greatest thing since sliced bread. This is just wonderful.” And then they say, “Well, if I, if I, you know, love it this much, I’m gonna find out more about it.” And they do their research, they do their homework. They become very educated, certainly more educated than the average physician on any- Sure
[1:02:43] Rick Collins: of the individual peptides by light years. And then they say, “Well, I can monetize this, and I can share what is working for me with others.” And, um, you know, that’s how they, they become a, a research chemical website. And they then are one of the many cars doing 75 in 55. And chances are that they won’t get stopped, but they become in harm’s way for, uh, for that potentially to happen.
[1:03:17] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Yeah. And last question as we wrap up. Does it, does it appear like, I think in the past it looked like the government would try to knock down the bigger players in the space, hoping that that would sort of send the signal to all the other little people that were going after ’em. Is that still kind of the playbook for peptides, or hard to say?
[1:03:35] Rick Collins: I think it is. I, I think that certainly historically the, the government approach is, you know, whack a few of the bigger moles- Yeah, yeah…. and the others won’t pop their heads out- Yeah… uh, is kind of it. But, but, um, unfortunately, I’ve, I’ve seen it happen just randomly to folks who, you know, were small players.
[1:03:57] Rick Collins: And it could be something where- You know, they just come onto the radar screen for reasons that are just unfortunate coincidence. A mom finds peptides in her 19-year-old son’s dresser and says, “What the heck are these? And what are these needles for? And I’m calling my doctor.” And somehow that gets called over to MedWatch or to FDA, and before you know it, there’s an investigation.
[1:04:23] Rick Collins: So you have that. You also have, God forbid, somebody drops dead that you’re selling peptides to, uh, for reasons that have, I’m sure, probably nothing whatsoever to do with the peptide, but the family, uh, is, is now looking for somebody to file a lawsuit and complain about. So you’ve, you’ve got those situations.
[1:04:46] Rick Collins: So, you know, there’s, there’s risk. You know, there’s, there’s always risk. Even if you’re one of hundreds of cars on the highway, you could be For whatever reason, one of the unlucky ones who gets tagged, and then, and then you call me, and I’m sort of the- Yeah…. you know, I look at myself as the firefighter. I do consultations with people in the peptide space, um, or thinking of going into the peptide space, where I go into everything we’ve talked about, but in more detail, to really assess so that you understand what the risks are of what you’re doing or getting into.
[1:05:25] Rick Collins: And, um, but most of what I do is, is more the crisis management. When the FDA shows up, and they’ve got guns and badges like real police officers and, and suddenly they’re, uh, combing through your warehouse or your residence, and they’ve got a search warrant. Um, uh, that, those are the calls that I get quite frequently.
[1:05:50] Rick Collins: And, um, and I always, uh, uh, you know, Mike, I love what I do. Uh, I, I love, you know, the many years that I’ve had being a lawyer. I’ve, uh, I, I love helping people and, you know, I have a unique, as, as Liam Neeson used to say-… I have a very particular set of skills- Yeah… that, you know, that make me able to do things that most lawyers, and know things that most lawyers don’t in this space.
[1:06:16] Rick Collins: So, um, if anybody needs me, they can go to rickcollins.com, uh, which is a, a website. My phone number’s there and all of that. Uh, my phone number’s even on my Instagram account. And so, um, you know, you’re invited to follow me and, um, and I try to keep everybody updated on, on all of the issues that we’ve talked about.
[1:06:37] Rick Collins: I, I throw up, you know, some of my training videos from time to time on there. Yeah. Um, and, um, and other stuff. So, um, uh, I, I love, uh, my followers and, and my friends on my social media accounts. And, uh, and I appreciate you giving me this opportunity. Um, and, and just, I guess I’ll finish with just a reminder that if you go to FDA’s website, you will be able to watch.
[1:07:02] Rick Collins: If you’re interested in this peptide issue, then you really do want to make the time next Thursday. It’s both Thursday and Friday, but the, the ones that we’ve really talked about mostly are Thursday, and, uh, you’re gonna want to, um, log in. They’re gonna post the link, uh, like two days before, so I would start- Mm
[1:07:20] Rick Collins: looking on Tuesday for that. And then, um, you know, I’ll be posting about it on my social media as well and, um, you know, maybe condensing it down for those who, who don’t have time to watch it and are looking for the highlights, um, you know, can just make sure you follow me. Yeah. That’s great. I mean, I’d highly recommend if anyone has any questions or looking into peptides or has any issues, like, definitely contact you.
[1:07:46] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: And for other people who are just interested in the space, like, your Instagram’s got a ton of good knowledge. They can just follow that- Thank you… and be pretty well updated on, you know, what’s going on in the industry too, which, which makes their lives a lot easier, so. Great. Yeah. That’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing everything.
[1:08:03] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: It was always great- Thank you… to talk to you again and, uh, yeah, really appreciate it. That was great. Thank you. Hope to see you soon, man. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Bye-bye.
[1:08:11] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Really appreciate it. A huge thanks to Rick for coming on the podcast. Always enjoy chatting with him. He’s always so up-to-date on everything that’s, uh, going on, especially in the kinda legal gray area with peptides here. As I mentioned, we d- did discuss that the FDA Pharmacy Compounding Advisory Committee meeting, uh, occurs this Thursday and Friday, July 23rd to 24th, 2026.
[1:08:43] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Uh, they had not, as of this recording, put up a link yet, but you should be able to do the old Google and find a link. If you’re listening to this after the fact, you should be able to watch the rebroadcast or get a summary of it. You can also check out Rick’s Instagram. He’s got a lot of great info he said he’s gonna be posting about this.
[1:09:02] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: Uh, so just wanted to make that note, and that’s why I wanted to get this podcast out to you as soon as possible after the recording. So make sure to check out all of Rick’s great stuff. Uh, again, big thanks to him as always. If you want more stuff from myself, go to my newsletter is the best place. You can hop on absolutely free, miketnelson.com/newsletter.
[1:09:25] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: As always, thank you so much for listening. We really appreciate it. If you’ve got a few seconds to give us the old like and download and subscribe and all that wonderful stuff, goes a long way to helping us with distribution of the podcast. If you can leave us a review, that helps us even more. So thank you so much for listening.
[1:09:45] Dr. Mike T. Nelson: We really appreciate it. Talk to all of you next week.