Dean Guedo and Jeb Stuart Johnston (the Food on the Mind duo) join Dr. Mike T Nelson for their yearly AI check-in, getting into whether creators should disclose AI use and why deepfaked video is a very different beast than AI-assisted writing. The conversation ranges into dead internet theory, why so much hard-won fitness expertise never made it onto the internet at all, and why demanding physical skills may become more valuable, not less, as AI accelerates.
Dean Guedo is an Edmonton, Alberta-based online nutrition coach and strength/nutrition professional with roughly a decade in fitness, athletics and strength sports, and Jeb Stuart Johnston is a National Board Certified Health & Wellness Coach and the Charleston, SC-based founder of Food on the Mind, specializing in emotional eating and food obsession.
Dean and Jeb join Dr. Mike T Nelson for their yearly AI check-in, getting into whether creators should disclose AI use and why deepfaked video is a very different beast than AI-assisted writing. The conversation ranges into dead internet theory, why so much hard-won fitness expertise never made it onto the internet at all, and why demanding physical skills may become more valuable, not less, as AI accelerates.
Expect to learn whether creators should disclose their AI use and why deepfaked video is a fundamentally different risk category than AI-assisted writing, why LLM writing may have already "peaked" and regresses toward the average, why fitness's hard-won oral tradition (Charlie Francis, Louie Simmons, old forums) never made it onto the internet at all, why oral defense of your own thinking may be the most AI-proof skill you can build, and why demanding physical skills could become more valuable — not less — as AI accelerates, and much more.
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Episode Timestamps:
[00:00:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Hello, sir
[00:03:07] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I think you're on mute
[00:03:43] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I think you're still on mute
[00:03:47] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I am
[00:03:48] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, there we go.
[00:03:49] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Did you, did you just log in?
[00:03:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Did I just log in?
[00:03:52] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah.
[00:03:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:03:53] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Okay, good. 'Cause I was like, I was in here and I'm like, "Did I get the wrong meeting note and I hit something else?" I was like, "Oh, shit. No."
[00:03:58] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, no. Should be good.
[00:04:01] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Let's see if this dumbass makes it.
[00:04:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: What, what, what's the over-under on it?
[00:04:05] Dr. Mike T Nelson: What do you think?
[00:04:06] Jeb Stuart Johnston: When we used to do our podcast together- ... like, he would miss entire episodes because he would just not realize what time zone he was in. And like, I remember we had one... And the best would be the ones that he scheduled with someone that he knew that I didn't know, and I'd be like, "All right.
[00:04:20] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Well, we're doing this." All right. "So let's go."
[00:04:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: All right. Here we go, Bob. So what is it you do, Bob? Are you texting him?
[00:04:30] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. Oh, fuck. I'm, I'm get- that's, I almost guaranteed response. Oh, shit. Just one, one minute. I've been doing
[00:04:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: the- Is it that time already? That's probably early for him, isn't it? Like 6:30 in the morning?
[00:04:43] Jeb Stuart Johnston: No. Uh, he's ... It's, he's one hour behind you. He's Mountain Time.
[00:04:48] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, Mountain
[00:04:48] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Time.
[00:04:48] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Okay. So
[00:04:49] Jeb Stuart Johnston: it's, it's 7:30. That's something. Yeah. Which I don't recognize as an actual time zone. I don't believe it's real. I don't think it's a thing. I think people just make it up and say they live there.
[00:04:58] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It, it's a weird thing, because you don't run into many people in Mountain Time.
[00:05:02] Jeb Stuart Johnston: No. It's like, uh, I, I think it's, like, it's, like, parts of, like, Colorado and Utah maybe, but, like, it's not the parts where everyone lives.
[00:05:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: No. Probably, shocker, the mountain range where no one lives.
[00:05:16] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Well, right. Hence, the name. It's like, y- yeah, ex- except there's a, y- you know, there's a whole giant series of m- Now I will say where Dean lives there are a lot of fucking m- You've been up there, right?
[00:05:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:26] Jeb Stuart Johnston: We went, when I was up there with him, we went to Banff, and it was like-
[00:05:29] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, Banff's amazing ...
[00:05:30] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I've never seen anything quite as beautiful as that. Oh, it's insane. And I'm not, like, a big outdoors guy, and I was like, "Holy shit." We did, we went on a hike though, and it was kind of like the first thing I had done after recovering from my broken leg.
[00:05:43] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And I will, I am adamant, and it might just totally be coincidental in timing or whatever, but, like, I am adamant that, like, my recovery improved markedly from that hike of just, like, all the stability of climbing up there. Oh, yeah. And it was supposed to be, like, this, like, regular hike. It was brutal, dude. I was dying, and Dean had his daughter on his back the whole time.
[00:06:06] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I had a backpack. I loaded up my, my backpack so it was kind of heavy, so at least I had some, like, resistance to do it. But we got done, and I was like, "Holy shit, man. That was ..." And it was supposed to be, like, just a chill hike. And I was like, and he was like, "Yeah, that was not chill." He's like, "That was tough."
[00:06:19] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I was like, "Okay, good." It's like experienced hikers saying that was tough makes me feel better.
[00:06:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. The first time I ever realized that, I think I was, God, was I only, like, 16 or 15 or something? We'd hiked up to Missoula. We hiked up to this little M they have out there.
[00:06:33] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah.
[00:06:33] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I was like, "Yeah, this is some pretty good exercise."
[00:06:36] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I remember being passed by, like-
[00:06:38] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Eight-year-olds ...
[00:06:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: white-haired Q-tips just smoking cigarettes, just, like, smoking past me on the trail. And I'm like, "Wow, I'm really out of shape."
[00:06:47] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Well, that was, that was the cool thing about, um, about traveling up there, 'cause w- as we were making our way back to the paths, and, and Dean's like, they're pretty avid hikers, and they've been doing it forever.
[00:06:56] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Like, so it's like that was always their weekend thing when they were younger. But, like, you would see, like, he's like, "Yeah, point now," like, you'd see, like, generally pretty skinny, but, like, old dudes, right? Like, in their, like, 70s Um, '60s, '70s, like just trucking, trucking past us. Mm-hmm. With the backflow gears, like yeah, a lot of them are climbers.
[00:07:16] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And, you know, that was just kind of one of those further realizations of like the dudes who like don't like lift weights or anything and like kinda eat whatever, but just live outside, like they're so capable later in life, it's crazy. Oh, yeah. Like, just like, you know, all the... And, and like just being lighter obviously is an advantage when you're a climber.
[00:07:33] Jeb Stuart Johnston: But they just like, everything they do is all targeted at this thing which is totally exercise, but it's fun and it's like a passion, so it's not like intentional at all, and they are way better off than the rest of us.
[00:07:47] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I've even noticed that for a lot of, like some of the guys I've worked with for different types of selection.
[00:07:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, I'd much rather- Yeah ... pick the, the dude who's, you know, got some muscle, but primarily is like a, a climber or does a lot of skiing in the winter and snowboarding and different things and hiking than the classic bodybuilder who only uses machines, who looks good, but has to eat exactly on the dime every like three hours.
[00:08:14] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, they just get destroyed.
[00:08:17] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Um, my brother's a wrestler, so obviously that was like helpful for him. Yeah, wrestlers are
[00:08:21] Dr. Mike T Nelson: great.
[00:08:21] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. But I tell you what, what he did when he was, um... I think it was between his ranger school and selection, but he did... Do you remember Mountain Athlete?
[00:08:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:31] Jeb Stuart Johnston: He, he did all that programming, and it- Oh, that's cool
[00:08:34] Jeb Stuart Johnston: it, it, it like, and he went, I mean, he did say that like Green Beret selection for him was way easier than ranger school because it was about intellect and like being able to c- hold yourself and com- being composed- Yeah ... and things, whereas ranger school- It- ... is literally like, "We're gonna spend six months- Yep
[00:08:47] Jeb Stuart Johnston: not, not feed you, not let you sleep, and just see who doesn't die."
[00:08:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and to see who makes it.
[00:08:53] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. Because like rangers, like they're capable, but they're like, they don't have to be the smartest guys. Like- Yeah ... the Green Berets, like even the dumb- That's much more intense ... even the dumb ones- Mental like
[00:09:04] Jeb Stuart Johnston: have to be like real... Yeah, they have to have their shit because like the whole point is like, my brother's, you know, now this commander. He's like, "The whole point is like if I get killed, every one of these guys has to be able to do my job."
[00:09:14] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:15] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It's like, "Oh, okay. Makes sense." Yeah. All right, and I, I, uh, squeezed out an extra half hour.
[00:09:20] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I moved my group back just because I foresaw that it would be very difficult for us to finish on time. Oh, okay. So if we need to, we got a little bit of, of, of wiggle room at the end.
[00:09:28] Dean Guedo: I'm good. I, like my basement flooded, so like my computer... Anyways, I, I, I thought- We're, we, we- ...
[00:09:34] Jeb Stuart Johnston: 11:00. We were just taking bets on whether or not you remembered what time zone you were in
[00:09:40] Dean Guedo: No, I, I did.
[00:09:41] Dean Guedo: It's just like-
[00:09:42] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Actually, now that you're, like, teaching and all this and you have a regular schedule, you're probably way more organized, or at least time conscious.
[00:09:47] Dean Guedo: Uh, I'm way more organized with organized stuff.
[00:09:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And you have more hair in the front.
[00:09:55] Dean Guedo: Uh, I do not. I- I
[00:09:57] Jeb Stuart Johnston: was gonna say, that doesn't look
[00:09:59] Dr. Mike T Nelson: like more
[00:09:59] Dean Guedo: to me. I, uh, you know, I learned-
[00:10:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Well, I'm used to seeing it shaved all the time ...
[00:10:02] Dean Guedo: well, what I learned is that you, the, the less hair you have, the higher you cut it, like in terms of, like, fades. Oh. And then you cut till you have more hair.
[00:10:13] Dean Guedo: So it's like you, you have less hair to look like you have more hair. I don't know if that's science-based, but- You just don't- ... obviously if I have more hair, it shows where I don't have hair, which is, like... And the barber's like, they're like these Lebanese guys, and they're like, "Yeah," like, "that's what you do."
[00:10:27] Dean Guedo: And I trust them with hair anyways. Yeah. Nothing else.
[00:10:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um- Are you spontaneously doing a vacation to Turkey sometime soon
[00:10:33] Jeb Stuart Johnston: or- Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say the Le- ... the Lebanese guys are just teaching you the masterful art of delusion.
[00:10:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:10:39] Dean Guedo: Yeah, th- that's what they're, they're good at that and, uh- Yeah ... and illusion with hair and delusion with everything else.
[00:10:46] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Right. Illusion and delusion. Yeah. You
[00:10:49] Dean Guedo: must
[00:10:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: come in every three weeks now.
[00:10:52] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Dude, I used
[00:10:52] Dean Guedo: to cut- It was like, yeah, like, if you have it here, you gotta, like, fade it to there. Yep. Like, oh, that's why the haircuts are always like that. I'm like, that makes total sense. I don't care about this, but I, I do now. I'm organized like you, you have to do it.
[00:11:03] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Y- when I... Dude, speaking of, like, three weeks, I had guys who would come to me every... And I would try to... I charged $100 a, for a men's haircut because I didn't like to do them. You did hair? Damn. Yeah. So I would charge, 'cause I didn't like doing men's haircuts. I was like, "Okay, it's 100 bucks for a half-hour haircut."
[00:11:17] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I had guys that came in every three weeks and didn't blink. Like, they're like, "No problem." Wow. It's, it's New York, so it was, like, guys who were making, you know- Yeah ... four, $4 million a year or whatever, but-
[00:11:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I probably wouldn't give a shit then either.
[00:11:27] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah.
[00:11:28] Dean Guedo: See, I forget to ask you these things. I should just ask you.
[00:11:31] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I'm just- Debo's the man.
[00:11:32] Dean Guedo: Yeah, I forgot you... It's just, there's too many things- That's not what I want ... to remember you're good at.
[00:11:38] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I, I, like, I don't know how good at it I am anymore.
[00:11:41] Dean Guedo: Well, you were probably better at hair than this stuff, 'cause you were doing the festival stuff. You were d- you were doing the-
[00:11:46] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Actually, the, the, the irony is is I was, like, I was okay at hair, but I had built some kind of weird perception amongst the world that I was the fucking man.
[00:11:57] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And, like, so I got hired for everything and, like, did all these things. And I would show up half the time and being like, have my assistant be like, "I can't do this. I need to have my assistant fucking do this. I don't wanna do it." Like- ... but people just were like, they wanted me there, and I think probably just 'cause I was fun to hang out with was probably a big part of it.
[00:12:13] Jeb Stuart Johnston: So they're like, "Fuck it, just bring this guy. It'll be fun."
[00:12:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I think that's a lot like training too. Like, you, you know, to be a hairstylist you kinda have to have somewhat of a personality in addition to- Oh, yeah ... having the skill set. 'Cause you're stuck there with the person, like, right next to you for that length of time.
[00:12:29] Jeb Stuart Johnston: You also have to have a big personality because there's so many people in there, and especially, like, the world that I got into in fashion. It was all gay guys. Oh, I'm sure. And so, like, these dudes were, like, come flying in the room, you know, so you're like... So I was the opposite. I wore a suit and tie and, like, fucking Gucci loafers and just made it look super professional, and that was my shtick.
[00:12:52] Dean Guedo: Nothing's changed
[00:12:56] Dean Guedo: Just the, the, the cheater look.
[00:12:57] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. I'm just- Yeah, gotta curate a look to make people think the way, to give them the perception of what you want them to feel.
[00:13:05] Dean Guedo: Yeah. Fuck.
[00:13:06] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Be- Beyonce wrote a whole book about it.
[00:13:11] Dean Guedo: Are we talking... So we're talking about Bitcoin today, right? Yeah.
[00:13:15] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I feel so vindicated.
[00:13:20] Dean Guedo: We won't talk about Bitcoin, but if we talk about Bitcoin, we should talk about that John
[00:13:24] Jeb Stuart Johnston: did tell all the- Does, did, did Dola, did, did Dola send you the text message that Goodman sent him?
[00:13:29] Dean Guedo: No.
[00:13:31] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Great. It's like, it's basically like reading a LinkedIn article of like someone who's like, "My daughter died of cancer today.
[00:13:37] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Here's the three lessons I learned about the perfect sales funnel from spending the last nine months in the hospital watching my child die." No, exactly. It's like, just the, um-
[00:13:47] Dean Guedo: He just needed, he just needed the authenticator. Like the... Man, like...
[00:13:53] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Hey, it's, here's the text message. "Yo, not sure if you heard, but I got hit for 1.6 million in Bitcoin in a $30 million hack, or $130 million hack last week.
[00:14:00] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Then I became the public face of the heist. Been crazy. Front page of newspapers, all the things. It's nuts. But I've decided to turn lemons into lemonade and write a book on what happened, but also the greater story. Gonna push back the personal trainer book to make it happen. Working title is Drained, what losing 1.6 million in seven minutes taught me about the investments that can't be stolen.
[00:14:17] Jeb Stuart Johnston: The broader theme is resilience in the digital age, where we are all being forced to relinquish control to forces we cannot hope to understand. Planning to releasing the Kickstarter on Thursday. Need to send a few people manually to get some- Whoa ... purchases before sharing it to show some energy. Can I send it to you when live goes public?"
[00:14:31] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And then Mi- Mike wrote back, "Yeah, I saw. I deleted Facebook and Instagram from phone and never really got on desktop. That sucks, man. Not something I'm really into, though."
[00:14:41] Dr. Mike T Nelson: That's actually a good reply.
[00:14:43] Dean Guedo: That's actually, like, the, what you're, the, I don't know, what all the gurus are telling people. Like, just facts and, like...
[00:14:49] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. But I just love it 'cause Mike's like, yeah, he's like, "You know what? I spent enough time fucking supporting you by giving you free anecdotes. I'm done."
[00:14:58] Dean Guedo: Well, I feel sort of bad, but then at the same time, he didn't use the authenticator. It's like- I,
[00:15:02] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I don't feel bad at all. He fucking blocked me on Instagram.
[00:15:05] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Fuck that guy.
[00:15:06] Dean Guedo: Oh, really?
[00:15:08] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah, he blocked me. Oh. You remember the story. When we were in Dallas- No ... like, he kept avoid, he kept avoiding me 'cause he blocked me 'cause he said something stupid, and I was just like, I wasn't even being rude, I was just being factual. And, uh, I walk into the bathroom and there's like fucking 20 stalls and it's just him in there.
[00:15:22] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And I was, I just, I walk right up next to him, right up to the stall, like kinda lean into him and just, like, pull my dick out right there at the stall, just, like, staring at him the whole time. And I was like, that was my revenge.
[00:15:36] Dean Guedo: Well, Mike, Mike, you didn't get a text?
[00:15:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Why didn't you get a text? No, no.
[00:15:40] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I- 'Cause, 'cause, 'cause Mike isn't independently wealthy.
[00:15:43] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I like John, but I also have this just- There's something about- If he- ... it that I just can't put my finger on, that I'm just like, "Ah."
[00:15:58] Dean Guedo: I
[00:15:58] Jeb Stuart Johnston: mean, let's, let's be honest. He's the first guy that, like, played the humble card while- Oh, dude ... also being like, "I'm on the beach in Hawaii running my fitness business."
[00:16:09] Dean Guedo: Yeah. You guys- Talked to Andrew about this, but I was like, I g- I actually put Andrew on T- on that, like, f- fitness pro mentors fucking group. Oh,
[00:16:17] Dr. Mike T Nelson: yeah.
[00:16:17] Dean Guedo: It still pops up. He got sued so hard, 'cause basically he's been, like, the golden child, and then the, the guy who runs the thing is like, "We're not connected with John in any way."
[00:16:25] Dean Guedo: 'Cause John basically, like, r- reached out to him at the beginning and was like, "I support this group," yada, yada, yada, and then he started, like, trying to, like, infiltrate it, and this guy- ... called out. But pri- or after this, like, like, two months ago, like, everyone was like, "Yeah, John's thing is, like, a fucking scam.
[00:16:40] Dean Guedo: They're taking all our money and da, da, da, da, da, da," and there's just receipts after receipts after receipts. Oh. And then John
[00:16:46] Jeb Stuart Johnston: was like- And everyone, every- ... "I'm not in
[00:16:48] Dean Guedo: it anymore" One of my men- Like, it's, like, he's there ...
[00:16:49] Jeb Stuart Johnston: one of my mentees did the OTA, and there's a money back guarantee for, like, the first week, and he went to the first meeting and he's like, "This sucks.
[00:16:55] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I don't like it. Can I get out?" And they were like, "No." Like, it's- Whoa ... like, yeah, John, and this was years ago, and, uh, John's been... Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. And, and, like, I want, I don't wanna hear business guru talk from a guy that manages to bankrupt at least one or two new businesses he starts every year.
[00:17:12] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Like, every year- Yeah ... it's a story, like, "I started this thing. I lost money." I'm like... And you know what? My thing with him too is, like, this guy's been claiming to be a best seller for as long as I've known him. He's never sold a book. Every single one of those books he's given away at conferences. Like- Yeah, you
[00:17:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: buy them and s- you give them away, yeah- Yeah
[00:17:26] Dr. Mike T Nelson: but that's, that's a purchase, right?
[00:17:28] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. And he says it's, like, his marketing. "I spent a million dollars on marketing." It's like, it's just-
[00:17:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, buy my own books to give away.
[00:17:34] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I remember, like, Cav being like, "Oh, yeah, check this book out. He's such a great writer." I was like, "Cav, no offense, but if there's one thing that you have absolutely no expertise in, it's understanding any kind of, like, good writing or reading."
[00:17:46] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I was like-
[00:17:47] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I love Cav, but I would- ... he's a terrible writer ... not be the person to go and ask him, "Cav, what's good writing?" Grr. Pretty sure
[00:17:54] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I mean, even Cav says he's- ... that was all right ... "I can't write." Like, Cav says- Yeah ... he's like, "I can't write." I'll eat the- I think
[00:17:58] Dean Guedo: he graduated
[00:18:00] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I know he does like, he does all of his like, he does all, like voice dictation stuff- Yeah
[00:18:04] Jeb Stuart Johnston: which is super smart 'cause it works for him.
[00:18:05] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:18:06] Jeb Stuart Johnston: All right. We should probably start, right? Yeah. 'Cause otherwise we'll do an hour and a half and never record a thing.
[00:18:10] Dean Guedo: Happens when we don't catch up.
[00:18:12] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It's just trash. Just
[00:18:15] Dean Guedo: pick up on social media
[00:18:15] Jeb Stuart Johnston: and- I, well, see I, luckily I get to see Mike in a few weeks, so like, I'm like-
[00:18:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, that'll be fun.
[00:18:19] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah.
[00:18:20] Dean Guedo: I know more about social media than Mike in terms of the, the drama, and I don't even use it anymore.
[00:18:25] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah.
[00:18:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, that's wild, isn't it?
[00:18:26] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Dude, I, I only found out about it because of Dola. I didn't know any about this stuff either, partially 'cause I'm blocked by John Goodman, but- ...
[00:18:32] Dean Guedo: that would be why. 'Cause I heard every second of the day.
[00:18:35] Dean Guedo: Okay. Sorry, sorry. Okay, what are we doing? I, I know- Sorry, sorry. Sorry, sorry. I know at least what we're doing,
[00:18:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: and I'm, I, yeah.
[00:18:39] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I heard AI
[00:18:40] Dean Guedo: and- We'll probably just start. I mean, I would just say the topics like
[00:18:43] Dr. Mike T Nelson: AI and writing and where you think it's kinda going and- Oh,
[00:18:49] Jeb Stuart Johnston: cool. Ooh, yes, this is, that's good. All right, cool.
[00:18:51] Jeb Stuart Johnston: All right.
[00:18:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. All right. I'll just do a short little pause, and, uh, we'll go from there Awesome. Welcome to the podcast. How are you guys today?
[00:19:01] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Good.
[00:19:02] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Good. And just say- I am- ... your name and introduce yourself, 'cause most of this is audio, so people can relate your name with the audio
[00:19:08] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Uh, my name's Jeb Stuart Johnson.
[00:19:09] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I'm a nationally board-certified health and wellness coach who, uh, resides in Charleston, South Carolina. I am also the proud new owner of only one eyebrow after shaving my eyebrow off- ... in a horrible, uh, eyebrow trimming incident yesterday. Uh, so that right now is my main claim to fame.
[00:19:29] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Is that why you're wearing the glasses, for our people on the video?
[00:19:32] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah, that, and I'm also 48 and have lost all ability to see, hear, or, uh, move my body in an efficient manner.
[00:19:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, okay. So am I. Yeah. Welcome to fitness. I-
[00:19:43] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I should say- I actually came- ... jujitsu in particular is what's done that.
[00:19:46] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, that, that'll do it.
[00:19:49] Dean Guedo: I'm, uh- Dean ... I'm Dean James Guido. I use my middle name 'cause Jeb uses his, and it makes more sense.
[00:19:56] Dean Guedo: Um, I was actually super pumped to be here today, 'cause I saw Jeb's post about his eyebrow and I was gonna be able to see him in person. I actually didn't even notice. See him in
[00:20:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: person.
[00:20:04] Dean Guedo: I didn't actually notice it, so that, that's, that's good. Um, I'm a... I, I don't know. At this point, I'm a n- online nutrition coach slash, like, teacher, full-time teacher.
[00:20:14] Dean Guedo: I've transitioned, so I don't know. I think I was on one of these AI ones, like, a year ago.
[00:20:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Dean Guedo: And just through life and kids and white picket fences and, and lifestyle, I've accidentally- Living in
[00:20:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Canada ...
[00:20:26] Dean Guedo: yeah, I've accidentally transitioned into a teacher. Um, just like everything else I've done, it's just kind of accidentally happened, and now I'm, uh, doing that.
[00:20:34] Dean Guedo: So I'm doing all the things again.
[00:20:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Nice. Today's topic is our little, I guess, yearly now AI update. Um- Yeah ... my first question I'll ask Jeb and then Dean is, do you think you should disclose the use of AI, and if so, how would you frame it? Because there's everything from entirely 100% AI created to, yeah, I put this in AI to see if there was any, you know, things I should clean up in an edit.
[00:21:11] Jeb Stuart Johnston: That's actually a phenomenal question and something like I haven't really thought about. Um, I, just to give a little background, um, I'm a, a musician and an actor by like trade growing up. I still write and, and record music all the time. It's, uh, I consider myself a writer. Like writing to me is, um, not just a tool for work, but I actually enjoy creative writing.
[00:21:35] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It's, it's, it's kind of what I base everything in my life around. So I have a lot of, uh, very heavy, um, shocking for those of you who know me, opinions about, um- No. Yeah, right? The, the ethics of AI, um, in general- Me too ... um, and, and, and just what I see it as, um, first of all what it is and what it isn't, and we'll probably get into that a lot more.
[00:22:00] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Mm-hmm. But I think, um, disclosure right now, I don't think we have a clear metric or, or a real rubric. I, I think, um, the, I, and again, I, part of the problem too is that I think the three of us will all share the same bias, is that we all have what I would consider, uh, uh, above average critical thinking skills.
[00:22:21] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And so AI becomes very apparent to us very quickly when it's being used. Mm-hmm. So for me, I don't feel as necessarily being, um, a, a, an necessity to, to disclose everything ahead of time because things that are fully generated by AI, like I mean, I can tell. I mean, I've just watched people's speech patterns changed over the last year in using AI terminology.
[00:22:43] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yep. Um, so I think like does it need to be? I mean, I think if it's clearly AI or if you're using like, especially if it's using, I, I wanna delineate between like content that's like a caption on an Instagram post versus a video that is not really a person saying things that they never really said- Yeah
[00:23:02] Jeb Stuart Johnston: which is the dangerous side.
[00:23:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: 100% made up.
[00:23:04] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Right. You know, that, that absolutely. But I think, you know, if I use AI to, um, edit the structural, uh, like passage of my caption on Instagram so that it isn't me just rambling, uh, is, do I need to disclose that? I, I've never even thought twice about that, uh, because I, I don't disclose when I use a thesaurus to come up with a new word, or in a song if I use a rhyming dictionary to figure out which words- Mm-hmm
[00:23:30] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I could use that. So you know, I think, um, it's probably a sliding scale. But I think when it's, when, when you're using something to create... I- how about this? If it's used to create the content, absolutely. If it's used to, uh, edit or observe or give notes on the content, then I don't feel it's necessary
[00:23:53] Dean Guedo: Yeah.
[00:23:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Cool.
[00:23:54] Dean Guedo: What do you say, Dean? I think we're at this cross- I'll, I'll come at it from a little bit different of an angle. But I mean, right now, um, we are in this spot where everyone's using it. Um, there's the side of people who understand it and the side of people who don't, and everyone kinda in the middle.
[00:24:11] Dean Guedo: And then we're also at this spot where we wanna, like, either control it or, like you said, disclose it. And people are, like, hanging onto this, like, thread of humanity. There's this, um, the game of the year, um- I guess contender. It was supposed to be, like, unanimous game of the year. Um, I can't remember the name of it.
[00:24:30] Dean Guedo: This was last year. And they weren't actually eligible after all was said and done, 'cause they disclosed that they used AI to help with some of the environment scenes. And so- Hmm ... this game is, like, i- and some of the sprites and all this shit, but, like, everyone's like, "This is the best game. Like, it's gonna win no matter what."
[00:24:45] Dean Guedo: They're like, "Yeah, but they can't. They used AI, so creatively they just fucked." And so there's this, like, trying to, like, f- figure out what's real and what isn't, and we're gonna get to a spot where it doesn't matter, and you could argue it doesn't matter now. And people are trying to make it matter by, like, you have to disclose or you don't have to disclose, but listen, like a year ago, things couldn't even be done that are being done now, and we talked last year about all of the progression.
[00:25:10] Dean Guedo: It's, it's like, I don't know, what's the science term for, like, it takes off and then it's just fucked?
[00:25:15] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, it's just exponential.
[00:25:17] Dean Guedo: Yeah. Th- they call it singularity. It's not actually singularity right now. But I mean, right now the exponential growth is, it, we're right in the middle of it, and it seems really fast, and I would guarantee it's not that fast right now, and that's the scary part.
[00:25:29] Dean Guedo: So do I think people should dis- disclose? I think that they're trying to put some guardrails on it, but at this point, I think the bigger question is, um, how do we get people caught up to understand what's real and what isn't? Um, from the educational standpoint, we're in this transition, and that's part of my job right now, is trying to put rules on AI and, and everyone's been trying to put rules and they're failing, because they either can't catch it- Yeah
[00:25:53] Dean Guedo: or they can. Um, and if they do catch it, it's actually not AI, 'cause now, like Jeb was saying, people have these mannerisms and ways of doing it- Mm-hmm ... that they're kind of all becoming one, which is a little scary. Um, I'm on the side of fuck it, right? Like, let's learn how to assess with it or work with it or be able to see it or bring people up, because at the end of the day, this is, i- it's gonna be a wasted effort.
[00:26:15] Dean Guedo: Like, and, and a wasted effort i- going the wrong way, where we could use that time to, um, figure out how to integrate it, 'cause it's already integrated. Uh, so do I think they should? I don't think that they should. I think that if you can't figure it out, um, like, I don't know, like I, I don't think that they should.
[00:26:31] Dean Guedo: I think that- Also
[00:26:32] Jeb Stuart Johnston: why I love discussing-
[00:26:33] Dean Guedo: Videos though for like the, this is where it's like for like the s- the, the s- the conspiracy theory stuff, that stuff's fucked. I think they just should 100% do that. So that's- ... my only thing.
[00:26:42] Jeb Stuart Johnston: But I, I, well, I, I this is why I always love discussions with Dean is because we can have the same view and, um, uh, uh, uh, um, opinion about something, but for completely opposite reasons.
[00:26:52] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Like- Mm-hmm ... I, I'm like, I'm like, you know, the reaction, the, the, the reactionary revolutionary of like, "No, let's fight this thing," and like, "It's inevitable, but like, let's fight to last." And Dean's like, "It's inevitable, so fuck it."
[00:27:03] Dean Guedo: But I do think that it should be... So I do agree with Jeb. I think for the video stuff, like the stuff where, like, people can, like, bring down presidencies 'cause they put this fake video-
[00:27:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh, yeah.
[00:27:12] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's like 100% made up ...
[00:27:13] Dean Guedo: like, and so, like, I don't even know if they can do that. Um, but if, if we're talking strictly writing, like-
[00:27:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Writing, yeah. Writing for now ...
[00:27:21] Dean Guedo: strictly writing, no. But if we wanna go down the deep end of, like, hey, is that the president or is that, like, a robot? Like, I think that that would be, um, we're, I don't think we're gonna be able to control it, but, um, it's also too powerful.
[00:27:31] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And,
[00:27:31] Jeb Stuart Johnston: and I think when we, we talk about the ethics of it all, and I, and I think Mike, we kind of, this really was touched on on a Facebook post you had made, um, talking about writing. And, and I'm- Mm-hmm ... I'm guess- guessing that's kinda where we're leading here, is, um, one of the things that... 'Cause, 'cause we were all pretty early adopters, I think.
[00:27:47] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I mean, like, I know Dean dove right headlong in, and then Mike, you and I were pretty much right behind and, and trying to use it. And, and Mike, we're in a mastermind together that's really u- utilizes AI heavily for business. Um, and the one thing that there's, that, that my heavy use of AI and trying it, 'cause again, I tried it for creation.
[00:28:04] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I did, I was like- Oh, I did too ... "Hey, I wanna see what this does." And, um, it really exposed the lie that is what an AI is and, and, and what it is able to do, and how it is all just, um, you know, i- it- it's, it's just a, um, a basically a, a pump and dump scheme right now to get money by telling people it's gonna do all these things, and it can.
[00:28:26] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And maybe it can in the future, but in terms of a creation tool, I find it to be absolutely abhorrent.
[00:28:33] Dean Guedo: Well, they call it AI slop. Yeah. Which is a term that, like, even in the coding, vibe coding world, which is very similar to, like, the writing world. It's, it's AI slop. Like, you- but it's, it's kind of people...
[00:28:45] Dean Guedo: It's easy, so, like, it actually is just becoming that's what we do. So we're actually, we're becoming more like the AI.
[00:28:52] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Well, like- Yeah ... Eric, Eric, Eric Weinstein had a quote which kind of struck me. I'm not a big Eric Weinstein fan. Uh, but he said, people were complaining about LLMs, and he said, "Most people are LLMs."
[00:29:02] Dean Guedo: I was listening to this one. Yeah.
[00:29:02] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. A- a- and I s- I really thought a lot about that, and then I started paying attention to conversations I was having with people, and I was like- ... "Oh, God." It's very true. Very pe- very few people are thinking about things beyond, you know, pithy phrases that they've just kinda downloaded in their head and how to react- How's the weather?
[00:29:21] Jeb Stuart Johnston: in a situation.
[00:29:22] Dean Guedo: Good. Like, how's your day going? Like-
[00:29:24] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. Ooh, that weather. Yeah. It's sunny out there.
[00:29:27] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's hot today again.
[00:29:29] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yep.
[00:29:30] Dean Guedo: But it's, it's... Yeah. So it's like, it's, it's a representative of where we're at. But I don't... I think people think we're so much further ahead because of it, when a lot of it's... The same shit's been happening for, like, for, for not, not forever.
[00:29:42] Dean Guedo: Yeah. But anything tech-adjacent is w- they've had this argument the same time. The only difference is the speed and I guess how good it is. I would say it's almost worse, right? Like, everything kinda just... If I read stuff, I can't even read articles that aren't written by people 'cause they fucking suck.
[00:29:56] Dean Guedo: They're crap. And that's not even me being up on AI. It's just like- Yeah ... I know exactly what it's gonna say because it's in the title. I'm like, it's...
[00:30:02] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah.
[00:30:03] Dean Guedo: Yeah.
[00:30:04] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I feel like everything is- Because AI is basically putting everything in an LLM, but it's crawling the web. Mm-hmm. And yes, you can get certain AIs that are constrained to certain databases, et cetera, but by definit- so here's a perfect example.
[00:30:20] Dr. Mike T Nelson: So even on the AI that I use that I've trained, I can put in something, I did this the other day about zone 2 cardio. It still tells me it's amazing. Mm-hmm. And I have to go through this discussion of, okay, where are the sources? Where is this coming from? And then after about 10 minutes, it'll finally give up and be like, "Oh, I don't know," or it'll cite a three-zone model or something like that.
[00:30:42] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And this is something that I've put research in multiple, multiple times. But it's because that stuff is out on the internet, and it- Yep ... isn't really good at differentiating the quality of the information. So I feel like you just have this mass drive to maybe the middle of the bell curve, if we're being generous.
[00:31:03] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, everything- But- ... is being driven to average.
[00:31:06] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Well, a- and yeah, you guys know my biggest bugaboo, which is, has calmed somewhat, but Dean would spend days trying to irritate me by sending, uh, memes or, or Instagram posts of people saying this. Mine, who has trained in extensively tons of my writing, I've got so much in there, it will still pop out something that says like, "You don't need motivation, you just need discipline."
[00:31:27] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And I'm like- Yeah ... "You want me to punch you through this screen, don't you?" Yep. Like, this is, it's like a, it's like a modern troll. Yeah, because- But I like that idea of bell curve, um, because one of the, uh, condemnations I saw recently is that, um- Uh, uh, Claude and especially Gemini, uh, use Reddit as a, a big source- Oh, yeah
[00:31:45] Jeb Stuart Johnston: of it. And Reddit is, can be great if you can sift through the information. But if you can't- Right ... sift through it-
[00:31:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: But if you
[00:31:52] Jeb Stuart Johnston: just pull everything- ... you're just getting opinions ... from
[00:31:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Reddit, holy Christ.
[00:31:55] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And not everything- So that's why- ... but it, it, you, it weighs Reddit very heavily.
[00:31:58] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Correct.
[00:31:59] Jeb Stuart Johnston: So it's like you're gonna get, like, whatever coming from that.
[00:32:03] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Um,
[00:32:04] Dean Guedo: so yeah. That's
[00:32:04] Jeb Stuart Johnston: the way it works.
[00:32:05] Dean Guedo: Because, like, li- listen, we're talking about it 'cause we're, like, evaluating it, and Jeff says we're above average, whatever logic. I don't even know if it's true. But it might be
[00:32:13] Jeb Stuart Johnston: true. Oh, um, y- do you know what average is? Oh my God. Average is not, that's not saying a lot, to be above average.
[00:32:18] Dean Guedo: But, but that is what it's collecting, right? Like, it's designed to collect all of the stuff, and it works because, like, that's what we are. We just aren't that. Like, 'cause we, we, we actually, like, wanna read stuff. Um, but if you look at everyone, they don't.
[00:32:34] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, average
[00:32:34] Dean Guedo: of the average. It's true, right? So should you- Well, and one- Yeah.
[00:32:37] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I was gonna, coming back to your point you made earlier, Dean, about, like, people speaking like ELM- LLMs. We have the opposite side of the spectrum where I had, um, a business coach I work with and sent me kind of an LLM guide of, like, things not to use and phrases not to use, and I kinda just threw it in without reading it.
[00:32:51] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And, um, and then I'm, like, fighting with AI 'cause it's trying to tell me that, like, my writing, it's like, oh, these are problems, these are bad writing. And I'm like- Yep ... I'm like, I, I was like, I, so I just took and paraphrased, um, actually I might have taken it word verbatim, uh, a Hemingway quote and put it in there, and it told me all the things that were wrong with this.
[00:33:08] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I was like, you real- And that was the guide that my friend put to make it. I was like, some of the benefits of LLMs is that it has read every great piece of writing ever made, so the rules it makes are often dictated by that writing. So I could have the greatest, I could write the next great American novel, and if I use someone else's LLM guide, it would come in and be like, "Oh, y- you used, uh, not this, this."
[00:33:29] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And it's like-
[00:33:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm ...
[00:33:30] Jeb Stuart Johnston: that, the reason it's in there is because that's actually how great writers write. So we have both sides of the coin.
[00:33:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And I've gotten flagged for that on certain patterns that I've written and published well before AI even- Right ... existed.
[00:33:45] Dean Guedo: Well,
[00:33:45] Dr. Mike T Nelson: that's, that's- And people now will send me DMs and like, "Oh bro, this is AI slop."
[00:33:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I'm like- If they're
[00:33:50] Dean Guedo: having that problem at the university level- Look- ... you would probably touch base with-
[00:33:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah ...
[00:33:53] Dean Guedo: with some people.
[00:33:53] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I'm like, "But look at the writing I did before AI existed. It's all on the internet, anyone can look it up." Like, i- Yeah. But those patterns- Here's my timestamps ... right. But those patterns become a pattern that people use, and now I've, unfortunately, I've realized I have to kinda edit some of my stuff- Yeah
[00:34:12] Dr. Mike T Nelson: to pull some of those phrases out to prevent the conversation of, "Oh, well you just put this phrase in and just dumped 100% AI on the internet." It's like, no, I didn't do that. That's- But some of the patterns do show up as those patterns. That's,
[00:34:24] Dean Guedo: but that's your audience, right? So it's like, so your audience- Right
[00:34:26] Dean Guedo: is like, "We like science and, like, not using this because we are smart." Right. And, and they're like, you- you're going towards where you're gonna get the requests, right? Well, the people that are using AI, AI are using it because it fucking works. They're like- Right ... "Yeah, and this is great. I understand you now."
[00:34:42] Dean Guedo: And it's like you just understood the AI, but that's what I mean. The AI is us, and it knows. The, well, and that pervasiveness- Right? Your audience just happens to not like that stuff, so-
[00:34:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Correct.
[00:34:51] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah So you should use AI. The pervasiveness, the pervasiveness of the phrasing, though, is like there's a phrase, and I hear...
[00:34:57] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I, I was listening to, um, Hasan Minhaj, I think his name is. The guy's a Daily Show guy, a really smart guy, has a great podcast. He was talking with a woman who might be, like, a neuroscientist or something, and they're having a conversation, and in this podcast conversation where they're both live, the woman says, "Yeah, they're saying the quiet part out loud."
[00:35:14] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I cannot tell you a phrase I hate more on this earth right now- ... than saying the quiet part out loud. It's such a g- but, but this was not AI writing it. This was a normal conversation that they were having. Mm-hmm. And this is within, I mean, how, like we said, we had this conversation a year ago, and AI was still a baby.
[00:35:35] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And what it's become now, it's like in one year it has become... It, it's basically like the, "What's up?" Uh, when we were younger, right? It's like this, this, using these phrases on and on again. Well,
[00:35:48] Dean Guedo: I was going to tell you, like, and I, I don't know. Like, so weirdly, my teaching role has been developing an online, basically, platform for the division.
[00:35:56] Dean Guedo: Anyway, so- Which is
[00:35:57] Jeb Stuart Johnston: awesome, because I've looked at it, by the way. Really impressive.
[00:35:59] Dean Guedo: But you looked at the old... That wa- Truth, like that was like, that was- Months ago ... like seven months ago. Seven months ago. Yeah. The, so I, I basically use stuff offline. So, like, the LLMs are, like, like babies. Like, they suck.
[00:36:12] Dean Guedo: And you could argue that they're being used to train what AIs are actually using. Mm. And you could argue the stuff I'm using is being trained to do what's trying to get rockets to blow up Mars, right? Um, we're all... But no, but, like, this, but what coders and developers do is they pull the AI agents off, and they work within local files and do all this stuff, and it's like, it's 10, it, it's 100 times better than- Yeah, they're
[00:36:35] Dr. Mike T Nelson: constraining it to some degree.
[00:36:36] Dean Guedo: Yeah, and you- Well, from the h-
[00:36:37] Jeb Stuart Johnston: from the highest- Yeah, it's
[00:36:38] Dean Guedo: not... Yeah,
[00:36:39] Jeb Stuart Johnston: yeah ... from the highest level, so my brother's, um, he, he recently retired, but he was, um, a, a SOCOM commander, and obviously worked in theaters all over the world, like, you know, doing crazy stuff. And, um, worked a lot with, you know, like Palantir and things like that.
[00:36:53] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And we were talking about Palantir, and he's, he's taken on a job with them. Um- You know, that, that, that, that's a, a, a family, um, um, uh, thing. Uh, he- I, I don't think he really did a- a... But he- he's, he's doing good work because it, because the military does use, um, Palantir and so it's how can he incorporate it.
[00:37:10] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Oh, yeah. Um, but one of the things he said as we're talking about, he's like, he's like, "We don't, we don't..." Like, he's, "Everyone thinks that we're doing all AI." He's like, "The AI is, is a... The LLMs especially, th- they're a very tiny por- that's not what we're doing." The LLMs, the beauty of them is, especially in the intelligence community, is, is basically what an intelligence offer, sir has been doing for the last 100 years, is sifting through documents looking for words.
[00:37:32] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Pattern recognition. It can now aggregate that, right? And be like, "Ooh, this word came up 1,000 times in these whatever communications." Mm-hmm. "Let's look to that. Let's find this person. We can now figure out who this person is." Yeah. And so the, the way we think AI is being used in, like, these- Well- ... you know, evil genius worlds, it's not even being used in that manner.
[00:37:52] Dean Guedo: No, like my neighbors, like, either they're in construction companies and yada, yada, yada, but they'll use it. Like, yeah, they'll put together, like, 1,000 PDFs, right? And it just, like... And this isn't even using ChatGPT. It's pulling it off and... But what it's really good at is actually not the stuff we're using it for.
[00:38:07] Dean Guedo: B- right now, LLMs are ju- it's just Google.
[00:38:10] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah.
[00:38:10] Dean Guedo: Um, better. And then the writing part is like, "I don't wanna do this. Can you do this and edit it?" Mm-hmm. It's basically, it's a better version of, like, w- like, Word, um, correcting sp- Yeah. It's basically a better version of spellcheck. Autocorrect.
[00:38:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:38:23] Dean Guedo: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:23] Dean Guedo: Like, that's- that's literally what most people think it is. Um, but it's actually just Google, right? And actually before that it was be- Wikipedia. Uh, and so to me, I, I see no difference. Speaking of memes, like the Office one, it's like, "I see the same thing" or whatever. Like, that's literally- Yeah ... what I look at it.
[00:38:40] Dean Guedo: Even though I know it's not, but to most extent of, like, even this conversation and what people are gonna be here for, it's fucking Google and, and spellcheck and grammar check with a little bit like, "Hey, can I just add a sentence for you?" And then it went to, "Can you just do it?" Um, and then now we're here.
[00:38:58] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Which I think especially in, in fitness, I keep seeing these things now of automate your business with AI, and a couple of the ones I just looked into briefly- Fuck that ... I just had to shake my head and go, oh, so you're automating the human portion of your business with AI, and you... These are aimed at, in my opinion, trainers who are new.
[00:39:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's like you get one request for training a week and you want AI to answer that? It, it just seems like it's, it's backwards, where I've been trying to use it for- But that's why- Like, I have tons of data on clients to be like, oh, I have all this data on a client who did a prep last year. Here's a year's worth of data.
[00:39:41] Dr. Mike T Nelson: What are the patterns that you see so we can maybe head some of these things off in the next off season or whatever. Like you said, more of the-
[00:39:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah ...
[00:39:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: data pattern recognition, and not outsource the human aspect of it. Like, use the AI for that and, you know, like automation of the background of the podcast, of taking the file, put the file here, you know, blah blah blah, all the stuff that, you know, we would pay a live human to do that there's no human value added to that.
[00:40:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It's a, it's just- Right ... processing and, and putting the file here and taking it there and uploading and et cetera. But it just seems like we get it backwards all the time.
[00:40:20] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I think the advantage that people like us have... First of all, I am all for, and I wanna say that if you are, um, one of those coaches or business coaches out there who's been preaching automation and you have all these clients of yours that are making millions of dollars doing all this, please use more and more of this AI because that will hopefully get rid of all of you and, and-
[00:40:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yes.
[00:40:38] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It would just go way fast ... get, get the work back to the s- yeah, the relationship people again. But, but to your point is for people like us, you know, I think we, we all do a very good job of trying to challenge our own biases, but, but those biases are going to exist regardless, and by p- putting this information into ChatGPT or whatever, Claude whatever, and, and having it overlook it, it can be like, "Hey, here are some things I'm seeing," and, and, and I might not agree with that, but I can at least- Right
[00:41:02] Jeb Stuart Johnston: be like, "Ooh, here is a different objective viewpoint that challenges my own thoughts on this. Maybe I am missing something. Let me look into that." But you have
[00:41:10] Dr. Mike T Nelson: awareness to it now. Right. And you can decide if that's gonna be useful or not.
[00:41:13] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:15] Dean Guedo: Well, I think, like, I think that nothing's really changed.
[00:41:19] Dean Guedo: Like, the fitness apps did that. Like, the- we're all the targets, and I think when it comes to, like, the AI use is that, like... I like to say this now. If you, like, really are into it, even outside the LLM or even with the LLM, is it can do whatever you want if you have enough time and effort in doing it. You can pretty much do anything.
[00:41:40] Dean Guedo: Like, maybe not anything, but you could build your own app. You could do all this, just it's a steep learning curve, and it's basically been deduced to, like, how do I use it to write? Um, where it should be, like, what, what can I actually do with it? And I think that people just limit themselves. Like, when we use writing, you almost get stuck in the trap, 'cause that's what everyone invests their time in, is writing, writing, writing.
[00:41:59] Dean Guedo: And as both of you know, it hasn't actually gotten that much better. No. Like Jed was like, "Oh, my coach sent me this MD for Claude." It, it, it probably produced slightly better stuff, and probably worse in some ways. No, it
[00:42:10] Jeb Stuart Johnston: was worse in my, than my writing.
[00:42:11] Dean Guedo: And it's the same... It's been this... It, it hasn't actually progressed, 'cause I think that there is...
[00:42:15] Dean Guedo: It's, it's hit its, whatever, capacity for how good it can do, because humans are... The stuff it's reading from, I don't know- Is old ... we can talk about aver- we can talk about averages. It's collected all the internet, let's say. Well, we're not adding a lot with one year. Right. In terms of interactions. The, people are not changing that much.
[00:42:32] Dean Guedo: Evolution people don't change that much, and right now they're not changing that much in how they speak and talk, interact with each other, and put articles on the internet. So, like, the writing is not gonna get better. We peaked. Like-
[00:42:41] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah, it's that dead internet theory, right? Like at, like at this point, if there's no, it, it...
[00:42:45] Jeb Stuart Johnston: The, the, the, there's no new creation happening, then the evolution of the LLM is in effect dead. It, it can work on everything up till now, but if all of the new content is just a rehashing of old content and no new ideas, well, guess what?
[00:43:03] Dean Guedo: Yeah. It, it, it peaked for that.
[00:43:04] Jeb Stuart Johnston: That's what- To Mike's point is Mike's now talking about zone three versus zone two, and the LLM can't even understand that.
[00:43:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: No.
[00:43:12] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And then that's- Not the one
[00:43:12] Dr. Mike T Nelson: that I've trained ...
[00:43:13] Jeb Stuart Johnston: and, and that's the fights I get into it a lot of times, is 'cause I'll say, like, "Hey, um, you know, here's my..." And I have a, I use it a lot of times for thought exploration. Like, "Hey, I have this thought." Mm-hmm. Like, "Give me, you know, like fight me on this." And a lot of times what it, i- the, the wall I run into is it has an inability to think beyond, um, situations that have not already occurred.
[00:43:34] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yes. And so, you know, if I'm talking about something and I'm like, you know, "What is the possibility of this?" It's like, "That can't happen because X, Y, Z." And I was like, "Okay, but I'm talking about a, a, a, a totally hypothetical situation that exists outside of the rules and the structures of what we've seen up to this point.
[00:43:50] Jeb Stuart Johnston: How can we start to talk about that?" And it can't.
[00:43:56] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And that's the one thing I've, I've tried to use it more for problem-solving and almost like an editor or another employee would run ideas past, and then, okay, give me the, the positive of this, and give me the steel man argument for this, and tell me why it's a good idea and why it's a horrible idea.
[00:44:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: 'Cause every idea- Exactly ... you put in, it tells you it's, it's an amazing idea. And then I've caught myself a few times of, you know, have like a new product and put all this stuff in there, or something you're trying to solve, and then I'll just leave it sit. I'll go away, go for a walk, go to sleep, wake up the next day and I'm like, "Oh, I should try this."
[00:44:29] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And you have an idea that for the hour you spent arguing with AI never came up, and you put it in and you're like, "Oh, this actually was the, the answer." And then it's like, "Oh, that's a great idea." Yeah. I'm like, did I have to go through that- process of doing it to get to the idea myself, and then I also think that the AI still, in all its intelligence, didn't give me the idea that I had that was probably the best idea overall.
[00:45:00] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Do you know what I mean?
[00:45:01] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. I think that- And, and that harkens back to... Well, that, that harkens back to, you know, the conversation that we've had multiple times around the book is, like, you know that whole idea of walking, right? Mm-hmm. And, and this, this, like, idea of bipedal locomotion, like, helps the brain process in a certain way.
[00:45:15] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I read a thing about, uh, something with Hemingway. Again, weirdly, I, I, I quote Hemingway a lot even though he's not even, like, one of my top five authors. But apparently he had a practice when he would write, is that he would write, a- and instead of what most people do is like, "Okay, I'm gonna finish this chapter, close it up," he would stop in the m- in mid-thought Yeah,
[00:45:31] Dr. Mike T Nelson: mid-sentence.
[00:45:32] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah,
[00:45:32] Jeb Stuart Johnston: yeah. Yeah. And, and leave. And, and so kind of like that, that using the way- Open-loop ... AI you did is like you had the argument, you didn't ever complete the thought, you went for a walk, you did your thing, and so it kept that thought process active in your mind. And so for that, that to, to me sounds like the perfect application, is it didn't absolve, it didn't absolve the problem, it didn't come to a resolution, but it gave you just some kind of little trigger to start working through different options.
[00:45:59] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:59] Dean Guedo: It's better Google. Like, I mean, I, I think it helped you get there faster. You would've went da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Or asked someone on Reddit. Like, it, it's- Sure ... it's, it's maybe not better than, like, talking to someone, but, like, talking to someone is, like, exponentially longer. You have to get set up a time and- Yeah
[00:46:14] Dean Guedo: like, you know what I mean? Like, it basically allows you to- Yeah. You're basically talking to someone fake that, like, is gonna give you an answer, and it gives you an answer, and it's, like, a pretty good answer. Like, a generally, like- Mm-hmm ... ish, within the ballpark.
[00:46:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[00:46:25] Dean Guedo: I need to, like, build a fucking French drain and sump pump and all this stuff in my lake, and I'm going through it, and it's telling me measurements.
[00:46:32] Dean Guedo: Yeah. Like, honestly, it'd be fucking forever to do that. Sure. And it was pretty much right. Oh,
[00:46:36] Dr. Mike T Nelson: yeah.
[00:46:36] Dean Guedo: Pictures of stuff, and it's like, "Yeah, put it there, da, da, da, da, da." And I'm like, now I'm, like, looking, is that the right way to do it? I'll go look at a YouTube video. But prior to that, it would've taken me like...
[00:46:45] Dean Guedo: I would've had to, like, get a book, read about
[00:46:46] Jeb Stuart Johnston: it. You would... Yeah, or you might even not... You might not even know the question to ask.
[00:46:49] Dean Guedo: No.
[00:46:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, you don't know what to ask.
[00:46:51] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And, and I think to- So it's amazing ... to the lar- to the larger communal advantage, we also have to, like, recognize that we are all in a very unique position in the world, that we work in a field where we have acce- like, the fact that I can text Mike a question at any point-
[00:47:09] Jeb Stuart Johnston: in my day is an advantage that 99.9999% of the population does not have. And so, you know, we do have to have some fairness in people who don't- Have access or, or, or a community or a network of people that will challenge your ideas and have better ideas and have, you know, extensive knowledge and expertise in the areas that we are interested in.
[00:47:33] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Um, and we're all just curious people, so we wanna learn. You know, there's a lot of people that, you know, I- the joke all the time is, like, someone'll ask a question and I'll be, I'll be like, "Why, why are they asking that question? Why didn't you just go figure that out?" And my wife will always say to me, like, "Most people don't care enough about some inane detail that has nothing to do with their life to find out- Yeah.
[00:47:51] Jeb Stuart Johnston: the etymology of the word that they're using."
[00:47:55] Dean Guedo: You get 'em close enough.
[00:47:56] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Like
[00:47:57] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and we work for ourselves. I mean, I know Dean's working for education now, but he's doing course creation. So we're all doing things where I feel like you get very much rewarded for new ideas, new thoughts, execution- Do you?
[00:48:10] Dr. Mike T Nelson: being efficient- Do you? ... all that stuff.
[00:48:12] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Do, do we really get awarded for new ideas and thoughts? Well, the
[00:48:15] Dean Guedo: thing is- Or do we
[00:48:16] Jeb Stuart Johnston: get punished?
[00:48:17] Dean Guedo: Well, we talk about writing and, like, I know we're probably never gonna circle back around to it- ... but I'm, like, it's running in the background right now. I'm, like, building a, a shell to build courses, and I was doing a bunch of updates and it's been running for, like, two days straight, but it's always running.
[00:48:29] Dean Guedo: It's always running. I'm always talking. But to- I kind of screwed myself, and people are gonna screw themselves a- depending on where they end up, because my work output is, like, I've underpromised and over-delivered in my opinion. Um, but then they're gonna think that that's what my work rate is. Oh, correct.
[00:48:48] Dean Guedo: And
[00:48:48] Dean Guedo: so
[00:48:48] Dean Guedo: I'm paid, I'm gonna get paid less technically for more work. Um, and the same thing with the writing. Y- the output that they can do is quite a bit, and now you're gonna have to keep up with it, otherwise they're gonna be like, "What happened?" So, like, it's, it's allowing people to do so much more, but I think that, I don't know if...
[00:49:03] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It's a net positive, I guess, for humankind maybe, but, like,
[00:49:06] Jeb Stuart Johnston: it's stressful. I- i- is it, is it? I mean, like, I always come back to the fact that, like- Yeah ... y- you know, again, my existential crisis that is existence in and of itself of, like, we're, we're just creating more productivity for the people who are gonna benefit from this, who stole- Yeah
[00:49:25] Jeb Stuart Johnston: all of this information from us collectively and are now going to sell it back to us, uh, in the, in the g- under the guise of you won't have to work so much, when we know from history we're just gonna have to work more for less.
[00:49:38] Dean Guedo: Yep.
[00:49:39] Jeb Stuart Johnston: That's my optimistic view.
[00:49:41] Dean Guedo: People are using it. We all... Like, if I... Like, you're, you're, I guess you're sending it to people, like, to, like, "Hey, should you use it?
[00:49:47] Dean Guedo: Should you not? Should you..." Man, like, if you look... So as a consumer, I don't think they give a fuck. They've never given a fuck. Nope. Post every day. Do all this stuff. Look at this. Like, they aren't the ones arguing, "This is AI slop," except for Mike's followers. "This is AI slop. I'm not gonna buy from you." Like, it's, it's just, like, you should use it if you want to.
[00:50:03] Dean Guedo: You probably hate your life after a while, 'cause you'll be living in a fake fucking AI world. Um, and then at the other end of it is, like, use it. Like, it, it just, it just sucks. But if you- Well,
[00:50:15] Jeb Stuart Johnston: and, and, and I,
[00:50:16] Dean Guedo: I don't- ... have
[00:50:16] Jeb Stuart Johnston: money,
[00:50:16] Dean Guedo: you probably should use it. Like, it's, it's- I don't know- ... you can do it expon- exponentially better.
[00:50:20] Dean Guedo: It just, it sucks, and your coworkers are gonna be like, or your fitness people are gonna be like, "Yeah, you suck at writing." And you'll be like, "I don't give a fuck. I'm rich."
[00:50:27] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah, well, and a- again, I don't know that people will be miserable, 'cause like my whole argument, uh, you know, of like all the, the red pillars and all that think they're Neo, they're really Cypher, right?
[00:50:38] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Like- Hmm ... they wanna eat the steak. They don't really care. They just have this like view that they're the protagonist of the story, when reality they're the escapist. So I feel like most people, and again, like, a- and people complain about it, you know, even so far into like the creative realm of like, um, you know, in Hollywood people are like, "Oh, the AI is gonna..."
[00:50:57] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I'm like- Oh, yeah ... "Oh, oh no. Is AI not gonna be able to recreate another Marvel movie?" Like, it's- We're, we're not... Like it, this isn't Chaucer out here, like, you know, creating the next great, uh, you know, piece of romantic literature. We're, we're talking about like, you know, what's most... And let's be honest, like i- is there ever a time, like there's very rare times I'm looking at a piece of fitness content being like, "God, what a great piece of writing."
[00:51:25] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Like, so if AI is doing that for these people, like I don't re- it, I don't really care. I mean, most of it is garbage anyways. And, and our entire lives are lived in 30-second bursts on reels in Instagram is like that kind of change. That's what
[00:51:37] Dean Guedo: I mean. Like, what are we dis- what are we disclosing here? So like it's, it's...
[00:51:41] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I just
[00:51:41] Jeb Stuart Johnston: don't think- Oh, yeah. I, I think that's... There, there you go. Maybe that is. Like, what are we disclosing? Is like- Well, if you're busy- ... oh, this is crappy writing that's maybe not as crappy as the writing I was doing two years ago?
[00:51:50] Dean Guedo: That's what they're stopping it from though. They're, they're... Like this is if we were to like say, hey, why would they wanna disclose it?
[00:51:55] Dean Guedo: Well, because then Jimmy, who's always called out people, is gonna be like, "Yo, you used AI, and is this backed up by this, this, and this?" It's still the same fucking argument. It's like, "Hey, Mike, is that backed up by science?" Mm-hmm. And they're trying to argue about this. It's, it's the same argument. It's just about now like, "Did you write that?"
[00:52:10] Dean Guedo: And it'll still come back to like... You know what I mean? You still have to vet your stuff, and it's gonna be the same problems people have always had. They don't vet it. They speak before they fucking think, and now they're not even thinking. The AI is speaking based on what it thought about. So it's, I think it's just we're gonna get more of what's already happened, which it just will.
[00:52:27] Dean Guedo: I wor-
[00:52:28] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I will argue then that like for people like us who, uh, you, you probably are on the borderline of, of what people would consider sane- ... our stuff is actually gonna be fine because people are like, "There's no way AI- Yeah ... would write something this insane
[00:52:44] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I put my stuff into AI and it's actually told me that.
[00:52:47] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It said, "You have too many fragments. You have too many crazy words." Like, I don't know what's with the crazy raccoon references. This is very unprofessional for a professor to speak. And I'm like, "Perfect. I'm fucking sending that."
[00:53:01] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yes, send.
[00:53:02] Dean Guedo: Like, I, like personally, I read... Like, I can't even read Instagram anymore, 'cause everyone is just f- I, I don't think Jeb uses AI, but then sometimes he does.
[00:53:09] Dean Guedo: If I see, like, an emoji or, like, some bullet points, I'm like, he can fuckin' like- Oh, actually,
[00:53:13] Jeb Stuart Johnston: no. I, I use, I use emojis because I, I... Part of why I use emojis, um, bullet points, is because as is clear just in the last, whatever, half hour, I ramble incessantly anyways. Um, and so bullet points are helpful, but emojis I do to soften my language, because I do speak so harshly at times that I'm like, "Ooh, I need to s- kinda like soften this up so I don't sound like an asshole," 'cause there's no context in the writing.
[00:53:37] Dean Guedo: But like, you know the AI. It's like, it's like the articles, like I said. Go on the internet, read the articles. It's the same thing if you read Instagram or Facebook. It's just like, it sucks. But like personally, I think it just sucks. You shouldn't use it, 'cause like, you sound like a robot. Um, but then at the end of the day, like, you gotta do what you gotta do to, to sell whatever you gotta sell, and it's kind of always been the thing.
[00:53:55] Dean Guedo: It's like, man, these business coaches, they're lying or they're saying this or da, da, da, da. We just... I- nothing's changed
[00:54:02] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I, I also spent some time figuring out, like, if somebody says something I wrote, they're like, "Oh, that's just AI," like, why that annoys me. And I think it annoys me because I think we always wanna feel like we should get rewarded for effort, even though I know it's the outcome that matters.
[00:54:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: There's some human thing of, like, I actually read the damn references in here and did the work, and Bob over here just spit something out of AI. And in the world of social media and 30-second time clips, it feels like they're equivalent, and that's what bugs me.
[00:54:42] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yes. But see, and here's, here's the kind of, like, again, kind of the existential, like, you know, argument I constantly have with myself and, and, and probably the only way that I can continue doing this work within fitness, is I really have had to dispel that, like, external, um, value that outcome is really the most important thing.
[00:55:04] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Because if I believe that, then I would abandon all ethics and values I have- Sure ... and just go for outcome. But the reality is, and Cav, um, being the one that pointed this out, and it kind of like, I kinda got pissed at first, and then I realized he was 100% right. He's like, "Jeb just likes to work hard." So, like, you'll ask for, like, a little help, but when you could get a lot more help for something, you refuse it because you wanna actually work through the problem and learn how to do it.
[00:55:28] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And I was like, "That's actually pretty apt." Like, I cause myself- Mm-hmm ... undue burden and stress. But again, I think when we have AI and, and people start outsourcing their learning to AI, um, you know, the, a lot of things for me are very easy to learn. I can read. And so if something is a struggle, I wanna put the work into that to be assured that I am actually learning the thing and not just, like, downloading it for this one problem, because then when I'm approached with something similar but in a different context, am I able to actually work through that issue?
[00:56:00] Dean Guedo: Yeah. And you could work better with AI. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so it's like, but those are people using it as a tool, and you could call it, like, a generational gap. Like, people that are younger now that I'm fucking old, they just use it and they're gonna be brain dead. They're just gonna be different.
[00:56:12] Dean Guedo: But to argue that, like, AI can't do it as good, like, I don't know, you shaved your goddamn eyebrow off. I'm sure AI could do... They're like, "AI, if it did haircuts, it's gonna mess up sometimes." Well-
[00:56:22] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It's gonna... Well, well, and that, that- You mess up sometimes ... that, that is actually a perfect example. That's the human element, and that's why- Yeah
[00:56:29] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I am not threatened by AI in my work, because my work is 100% relational. It is not based on- Mm-hmm ... funnels and, like, churn and lead generation. And, you know, in the, for the past five years working within the fitness industry, like, I have just been considered bad at business, but as things change, I feel like I, I will have a consistent...
[00:56:53] Jeb Stuart Johnston: You know, I'm never gonna scale to making tens of millions of dollars, but I'll be safe.
[00:56:58] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Yeah, and I kind of feel the same way, like even now with AI reading research and stuff. Like, and I've tested this, like I've constrained the database and done all this stuff, and you know, if I'm putting out something that's semi-technical, it's okay, but it, it still can't put stuff into a big picture.
[00:57:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, I've even tried models with clients where I put all their blood work in, I put all their HRV, I put all their train- I put all this stuff in there, and I'm like, "Hey, what would you do next?" And the Again, maybe I'm training it poorly, but I'm always so sorely disappointed because it has something where it can't quite- Yeah
[00:57:38] Dr. Mike T Nelson: see all the human interactions. Right. It can give me data and say, "Here's a year of data on this person. What are things we should look out for or trends or associations?" It's great at that, but predicting how you would take that and then train that person. So here's a perfect example. So every so often I put into the AI, "My goal is to pick up the 175 pound inch dumbbell.
[00:58:01] Dr. Mike T Nelson: How long will this take me?" And usually it says, "Oh, this is pretty easy. S- you know, six to eight weeks." I'm like, "What are you insane? Like, most people never pick it up in their lifetime." So then I'll actually put in my own training data. Okay, I did this with the 100 pound, I did this with the 135, I d- and then it'll say, "Well, you know, maybe 12 weeks."
[00:58:18] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I'm like, "12 weeks?" And, like, the suggestions it gives me to do are just beyond stupid. But then I realize, like we were talking about, where does that data come from? Oh, because this is such a, such a weird niche thing- Niche. Oh ... it goes all the way back to the early grip forums where all these people would post who had never done the lift.
[00:58:37] Dean Guedo: Yeah.
[00:58:37] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like my coach Adam and, and people who have done this routinely didn't really post on those, those forums. Oh, right. That was all oral conversation. So the context for everything that it has to reference is, is completely bullshit to begin with. So of course it's gonna give me all this, these bullshit answers.
[00:58:55] Dean Guedo: Yeah, it's
[00:58:55] Jeb Stuart Johnston: a bullshit sport. Which,
[00:58:56] Dean Guedo: which- No
[00:58:56] Jeb Stuart Johnston: one talks about
[00:58:57] Dean Guedo: it. It's not popular.
[00:58:58] Jeb Stuart Johnston: But, but, and I, I think that hearkens back to a larger discussion of, of, of the fitness industry in general right there. Um, because to your point is, like, people, like, I'll use the example of, like, you know, every fit pro who, like, changes their entire idea of what's real and what's the best and all these things because they read a headline of a, an, of a research paper, and then they'll talk about how this research paper says this, and then I go in and read the research paper and I'm like, "That's not at all what it's- Yeah
[00:59:28] Jeb Stuart Johnston: you guys are missing out on- Yeah ... all of these things that are, that are influencing this. And I think for Mike, for you, like, not to pump your tires too much here- ... but, but you, you deserve it every once in a while. Um, you're kind of the, the, um, model I look to as to how I want to, uh, engage as a professional in this industry- Mm
[00:59:47] Jeb Stuart Johnston: and the environment, in that you are extraordinarily data-driven, you are evidence-based, and you are also the first person to be like, "Yeah, I don't know how this works, but I don't care because it works." Yeah. And I think AI cannot, cannot, like- It can't rationalize those two ... it can't rationalize those two things.
[01:00:04] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And so a lot of your views and your opinions and your, your objective viewpoints will be nonsensical to an LLM.
[01:00:13] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, try to explain RPR to an LLM. Good fucking luck.
[01:00:16] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I mean, try to explain RPR to a person. Like- Yeah, try to explain it
[01:00:19] Dr. Mike T Nelson: to a person ...
[01:00:20] Jeb Stuart Johnston: like, like, like, like the first time, um, you know, a conversation with Israel, he'll be like, "Oh, cool, so this is basically intuitive eating for lifting."
[01:00:28] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:00:28] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Um, and, and then that
[01:00:29] Dean Guedo: Ask them about, like, calorie deficits or- ... like, running volumes. Mm-hmm. Probably steroid use. Like, anything that's, like, just, like, it's like- But- ... it gives
[01:00:40] Jeb Stuart Johnston: very inconsistent ... but, but yeah, like, that's such a great point though, Mike, that I'm gonna keep coming back to is, like, yeah. Yeah.
[01:00:45] Jeb Stuart Johnston: We have to take into account the context of which it's drawing from. Um, shit, I mean, I think that the entire conversation is worthwhile just from that extrapolation you took of, like, oh, this niche thing that's being talked about by people who've never done it versus being talked about by the actual experts is skewing the data to that level.
[01:01:07] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Um, that's actually... That would be a great rubric for anyone to, like, be like, "Hey, is this legitimate LLM returns?"
[01:01:15] Dean Guedo: The same thing as, like, hanging around with a cult. Like, you ran a cult once. Like, you- ... you surround yourself with a bunch of, like, like- It's like a fan club ... well, look at, like, the- Mm-hmm ... you see all those documentaries on, like, those, like, not Mormon cults, but just, like, whatever polygamy cults or whatever.
[01:01:30] Dean Guedo: They- Yeah, yeah. I've seen them too ... they have no fucking idea because they're, they're just, that's the internet for them. And so it's just like th- their opinions are based on this, and LLMs is based on what's there, and there's nothing about these stupid pinch grip sports 'cause, like, they're not real. But there's, like, so many things like that.
[01:01:46] Dean Guedo: But there's so many things like that that it doesn't know, right? And if they do know, it's based on, like, a lot of, like, Mike brought up a good point, old forums. So, like, I was looking at, um, Charles Francis stuff for, like, my knee, um, and how they used EMS and stimulation stuff- Mm-hmm ... because all the new stuff is, like, shitty.
[01:02:01] Dean Guedo: Um, and all the old stuff, I don't know if you'd call it shitty, but I was like, "I wanna know what the guy who was using for Olympians was fucking doing." Um, and he released, like, this PDF, like, you probably even were around.
[01:02:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, but Charlie Francis put out a lot of the shit he did.
[01:02:13] Dean Guedo: And none of that was accessible 'cause it's, like, not on the internet, but there's a PDF, but there's forums where they can do it.
[01:02:18] Dean Guedo: And it was actually really good at finding where that stuff was, and then I- Hmm ... could go piece it together. Wow. But that's such a niche thing that if I was to look at just, like, how do you use it in, like, like, rehab right now, it would give, like, what's basically the biggest thing it pulls from, 'cause it skims through stuff, and it's just shit.
[01:02:34] Dean Guedo: Um, but it's really good at finding everything if you wanna find it. But yeah, like, stuff like that, like, real stuff that we care about, yeah, it's, like, the worst. But I also found that forum, which I wouldn't have found without AI, 'cause like there's so many things on the internet from like whatever, like the old Bodybuilding
[01:02:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: forum- Oh, yeah
[01:02:50] Dean Guedo: any
[01:02:50] Dean Guedo: of that stuff. It's
[01:02:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: cool. The old Yahoo chat rooms when like fucking Mel Siff was on there- Yeah ... and like all these people- That's crazy ... like top coaches. Like
[01:02:59] Jeb Stuart Johnston: actually crazy. But, but that's like... But now, like that, that's again, the internet and the, and the short attention spans. But I, I still remember a few years ago when a coach...
[01:03:07] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It's actually, I, I think it's someone who like, like follows you, Mike. It's someone who's like really, like she's like a PhD, like this whole thing, and, um, and, and she was posting about backwards sled drags, and I'm like, "Yeah, Louie really was ahead of the times." She's like, "Who's Louie?" Mm-hmm. I was like, "Louie Simmons."
[01:03:20] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And she's like, "I don't know who that is." Who's Louie? And she was like a PhD in exercise science, had no idea who Louie Simmons was, and I was like, "Oh my God." Like, like people know Mike
[01:03:30] Dean Guedo: Boyle's history. Mike Boyle gets miscreated on Instagram. Right. Like it, it, and then he's like, "I don't..." But like, but like Mike Boyle would've been like, like around, like giving, like...
[01:03:38] Dean Guedo: So it's like a lot of these things where people didn't exist on a digital footprint. Louie would be one of them. He's on some of those forums. Yeah. It's, Charles Francis is one of them. Like we, we've lost that. Right? And so i- it's, it's, it's kind of weird too because, like, we come from both ends of the spectrum where we know what was before- Yeah
[01:03:55] Jeb Stuart Johnston: all that, and then we've seen what's here, and it, you'd be so ... Most of the- My problem
[01:03:59] Jeb Stuart Johnston: is now I have no idea, like, whenever someone references someone new, I'm like, "I have no idea who that person is."
[01:04:04] Dean Guedo: Well, and there's no way they'd be able to find it. The noise is so big that we have to- At this point. Yeah, and it's like, uh, so I don't
[01:04:11] Dean Guedo: This has nothing to do with writing but, like, like, that's the way I look at this stuff is, like, it actually sucks. But it- it- Like, the good stuff is not there.
[01:04:18] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I think it actually does have quite, quite a lot to do with writing, um, you know, interestingly enough, 'cause when you first kinda started, it kinda wanted
[01:04:25] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Made me wanna think, and I'm not trying to hijack your podcast here, Mike, but, like No, no. Um, but Dean was talking about teaching, and, like, I think about pedagogy and, um, a- and I'm reading, uh, Stoner by John Williams right now in my book club, and there's a whole passage, he's a professor, and he's talking about medieval poetry and how something that was so important to medieval poetry was the trivium of the idea, um, of how the ancient Greeks and, and Romans placed such an emphasis on grammar.
[01:04:51] Jeb Stuart Johnston: But that emphasis on grammar is, is visible in the poetry of, um, medieval, uh, um, writers, yet it was done in a way that teaches you about grammar without the explicit idea of teaching you about grammar. And so in our, uh, uh, in our, in our attempts to teach people, can we use these tools in a way where they are helping us to maybe Trojan horse our educational aspect in a realm of entertainment, but not fall into that, like, grifter pure entertainment?
[01:05:27] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Oh, here.
[01:05:28] Dean Guedo: Here, this is good. Yeah. So, like, part of my whole strategy was, like, how do we ... Basically I've been given the task of how do you assess when we know everything's bullshit, right? Um, and you go back in time. So, like, whatever they produce, whether it's essay or whatever, um, they have to orally defend it, right?
[01:05:46] Dean Guedo: So, like- Yeah.
[01:05:47] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah ... they have,
[01:05:48] Dean Guedo: they
[01:05:48] Speaker: have
[01:05:48] Dean Guedo: to come into the light and be like, "Hey, I saw you wrote this," da, da, da, da, da. Yep. Let's say they AI'd all of it. All of it. It's all AI'd. If they can have a conversation with you for 20 minutes on why this thing is whatever, like, they know it. Like, you have- Yeah. .. the opinion, but, like, th- this guy fucking knows it.
[01:06:03] Dean Guedo: Who cares if they used Google or AI or whatever? Can this kid rewrite that or have a conversation with an adult about it? Um, so, but at the same time- That's a good point ... at the same time, y- listen, you wrote this yourself and you can't defend it that well, but you still wrote a good paper and we know you didn't use AI.
[01:06:20] Dean Guedo: Like, there's still, there's a place for those people, and there's a place for the people who don't AI it and can crush it. There's, like, a place for everyone, but at the end of the day it has to meet a gate of, like, this. We're talking. I can evaluate ... Th- we, we've seen it all the time at fitness conferences, people, right?
[01:06:36] Dean Guedo: "I, I write all this content," da, da, da, da. "This is the best," da, da, da. You walk up to them, they're stupid as fuck and they're small. Dude, did not pass
[01:06:44] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And they can't explain anything, right? Dude, did not- Which makes you wonder how much they actually wrote
[01:06:48] Dean Guedo: Right. So at, at the end of the day, it's like w- for at least where we're going with this, and there's been a few...
[01:06:53] Dean Guedo: There, there's like research on it and stuff, but everyone's trying to catch cheaters, right? Um- Yeah ... we're just trying to get the outcomes that we wanna assess. And- And everyone forgets about that. It's like, what are we assessing here? And so anyways, to, to that point is like the, the Greeks and all that is like, again, they're trying to get to the outcome.
[01:07:11] Dean Guedo: Doesn't matter how.
[01:07:12] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. And I, and I think what you just, what you just really like exposed here is, um, within AI, maybe again, another rubric we can use is, is there a dialectical, um, aspect to it? Are we able to take thesis and antithesis and arrive at synthesis through this pattern? And if so, then cool.
[01:07:31] Jeb Stuart Johnston: But if it's really just going straight to, to our th- synthesis or just sticking only to thesis, then it becomes a problem
[01:07:40] Dean Guedo: It, yeah, would, yeah. Like it's, and, and it's not, it's, yeah. They're, they're not cyborgs. They're fucking the robot itself. Like, and I think we- we're, we're trying to get to cyborg territory, where we're like, we're better because of it, and I think that that's, we're actually not going that route.
[01:07:55] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Well, no- We're just robots ... 'cause we've proven that information is useless. Yeah. I mean, if the last 20 years have taught us nothing else, it's that, like, all the information in the world has not helped move the needle forward.
[01:08:05] Dr. Mike T Nelson: No.
[01:08:06] Dean Guedo: Hasn't even
[01:08:07] Dean Guedo: changed- Just more cat
[01:08:07] Jeb Stuart Johnston: videos. Yeah.
[01:08:09] Dean Guedo: Well, you're in the science world.
[01:08:10] Dean Guedo: How much have they progressed on all these things we're talking about? Nothing. Nothing's happening.
[01:08:14] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It
[01:08:14] Dean Guedo: is- Nothing.
[01:08:16] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Getting there, but it, it's slow, 'cause the- Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll save that conversation for another day, and it's because academics in general are incredibly slow. So my argument for years has been, like, I did a presentation many years ago for DARPA, so Defense Advanced Resource Project Agency.
[01:08:35] Dr. Mike T Nelson: They came up with, you know, GPS and all this crazy- Yeah, yeah ... technology for military, and I asked one of the guys there, I said, yeah, at lunch, I'm like, "Hey, man," like, "no offense, but, like, the government's spending millions and millions of dollars here. Like, you have no problem getting funded if your idea is, is greenlight."
[01:08:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And I said, "Well, why don't you just have government agencies do this?" And he looked at me and he laughs. He's like, "The amount of time it would take a government agency to even be on par with the private industry- Wow ... we would be so far behind. Like, we're trying to do stuff that's 5 to 15 years out, so if we don't leverage private industry, the reason we do is because they have to be up to date t- now.
[01:09:16] Dr. Mike T Nelson: We would- Yeah ... spend all of our time doing this whole backlog." And so I feel like academic, uh, academics is stuck in that old model of you would need some outside source or some other way to get them up to par to even go beyond where they're at. And I get it. Science is a slow, stepwise process- Mm-hmm ... and we need basic research, and all that stuff is great, but it just feels like the environment that you're constrained in is just slow to begin with, and you're just stuck within that environment.
[01:09:47] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It's the limitation of bureaucracy. I mean, I'll bring up- Yes ... another, another little, um, you know, Mike T. Nelson gold star here. I saw an article, um, that was, like, this groundbreaking article, um, about, I guess it might've been the NIH or someone did, they did a study and they said THC actually interrupts sleep, and I'm like, "Yeah, Mike gave this talk-
[01:10:07] Jeb Stuart Johnston: like nine years ago."
[01:10:08] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:10:09] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I mean, like, I remember this was like, I mean, it was probably eight, like right? It was probably eight or eight years ago or something. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was a long time ago and this is groundbreaking research, and I'm like, "He did this, like, just for a throwaway fitness conference- Yeah
[01:10:23] Jeb Stuart Johnston: presentation."
[01:10:26] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And my other thing is that when you're talking about acquisition of knowledge, and, and we're already kinda seeing this, that you're gonna see fitness, air quote, celebrities show up online that will probably become very popular, will put out a lot of content. Most of it will be, say, AI-driven.
[01:10:47] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Maybe they're videos, they might not even be in the video. And I think that'll work to a point, but my hope is that at some point it comes all the way back around to live events, live panels, actual interactions with live humans, because you'll be able to figure out who actually knows stuff versus just put in better prompts into AI.
[01:11:14] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, there's no way getting around a- not, not that you have to have an answer for everything on a live panel or, or Q&A- Yeah ... or anything like that, but I think in that environment, there's nowhere to hide. Like, you- people will realize real fast you either know what you're talking about or you have no idea what you're what you're doing whatsoever.
[01:11:33] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Well, and, and it also exposes the people that'll be able to take new information and synthesize and come up with it, 'cause, like, again, the best part of every conference is, is us sitting in a corner, like, just, like, throwing ideas back at each other- Oh, for sure ... and like, "What about this? What about that?" My fear is that, um, you know, the optimism and the hope that this will lead to that, but what I've found in, you know, especially in working now with kind of mentoring other coaches, is that I'm under the impression that everyone wants to become really, really good at their job and do the hard things and, and, and learn the skills and, and put in the work to become the best coach they can be.
[01:12:07] Jeb Stuart Johnston: The thing I'm running up against is that m- people that say that would much rather spend that same money on learning the next funnel or lead gen acquisition. Yes. 'Cause even with all of their bluster and talk, at the end of the day, people are so driven by the monetary ROI that they would much rather do things that have nothing to do with the art and science of coaching and would much rather do it in the art and science of marketing and sales.
[01:12:35] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Right. And the only anecdote to me to that is actually educated consumers who are only gonna spend their time and money on people that can get them an actual result and can see behind all the marketing, which, again, is probably wishful thinking. Is
[01:12:50] Jeb Stuart Johnston: rare.
[01:12:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Because
[01:12:50] Jeb Stuart Johnston: it is rare. Because even tho- e- even those of us who are, like, well-educated and things like that, at the end of the day, if we have a significant enough pain point, we will- For sure
[01:12:59] Jeb Stuart Johnston: turn on every bit of cognitant, cognitive distortion we have- Oh, hell yeah ... in order to search for that result.
[01:13:06] Dean Guedo: Yeah,
[01:13:07] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I hope that answers- Yeah, that's just how humans are wired.
[01:13:08] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah.
[01:13:08] Dean Guedo: I hope that answered your AI writing question.
[01:13:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, no, it was, it was good. My other thought is that, this is my new pet peeve, is as much as I love a lot of my research friends, I get so annoyed when they're doing explicit application of stuff and you know they've never coached a single person in their entire life.
[01:13:30] Dr. Mike T Nelson: 100%. Like, the amount of people who tell me, "Do the Norwegian four by four." Okay, great. So do you really know how hard 90 to 95% of heart rate max is, which is what they used in that study, for four minutes at, you know, three minutes rest, whatever, and you're telling to do this to people who are doing, you know, BJJ- BJJ or they're doing lifting on top of it.
[01:13:49] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, you can do that, but you have to know exactly what you're talking about and having a way of regulating and et cetera, et cetera. Or the tabata, like tabata's been around forever. Oh, just do 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off. All right. Do you know how fucking hard 170% of your VO2 max is for 20 seconds?
[01:14:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like, no, you have no fucking idea. And so it's not that they're, the things they're saying from the research are wrong, it's just that they're, they assume that the application is, uh, automatically immediate. And then I get annoyed at all these people who try to then follow it because ooh, X, X, Y, whoever researcher, oh, look at all the stuff they've done.
[01:14:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: They must have all the coaching- Right ... answers to it. I'm like, no, they've never coached a single human in their entire life. Why would you expect them to have those answers? Anyway, that's just my ranting pet peeve. No, it's
[01:14:37] Dean Guedo: 100- You're not allowed to talk about- You're 100% on. You're not allowed to talk about how they look either or, like, their bench numbers.
[01:14:43] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Two, two seconds I got- Well, yeah, I wanna see them, like, actually do some exercise too. Like, are you doing- Well, to your point, though ... the thing you say you're doing? Yeah.
[01:14:48] Dean Guedo: But if you were to point out their coaching background, this is where it's like, um, you talk about- Then you're
[01:14:52] Dr. Mike T Nelson: just a dickhead. Well,
[01:14:54] Dean Guedo: like Joel Jamieson's a perfect example.
[01:14:56] Dean Guedo: Like, he wrote the MMA Strength and Conditioning whatever. I know he's changed. But, like, a lot of that was, like, he was in the trenches writing these fucking books, and, like, it's almost like that's lost to the world too. Even though he's like, he's, like, building his business and he's doing the other stuff.
[01:15:09] Dean Guedo: Yeah. But, like
[01:15:09] Dr. Mike T Nelson: And he legitimately worked with those people.
[01:15:11] Dean Guedo: Yeah, like, and, and so there's a lot of people talking about a lot of ways to condition and the perfect way. It's like th- probably most of that stuff is still, like, the best i- in terms of application.
[01:15:22] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:15:22] Dean Guedo: And we have lost that a little bit. I know, and that's, that's not an AI thing, but it maybe is.
[01:15:27] Dean Guedo: Like, it's, it's more of a, um- Um, people see... Like, a- and researchers now have a platform too, so I think the voice is- Yes ... is bigger. Um, which I don't know, it, it shouldn't be a problem, but, like, I don't know. I don't even- It's,
[01:15:40] Jeb Stuart Johnston: it is a problem. To me, a- a- and, and, and again, it always comes down to the fact that there are very, very few, if any people in this world who have the constitutional resolve to avoid, uh, any kind of that, um, the, um, uh, uh, um, uh, I can't remember the phrase they use for it now, but, uh, where like the influence or the, the likes drive your behavior rather- Mm
[01:16:09] Jeb Stuart Johnston: than your behavior driving the content. Uh, um- And you should be ... internet. Yeah, but, but, but what is, what is, you guys know, you know what's the phrase I'm talking about. Audience capture. Audience capture- Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah ... is like that type of thing. And you can watch people's intent shift over time- Oh,
[01:16:23] Dr. Mike T Nelson: yeah
[01:16:24] Jeb Stuart Johnston: to being like, oh, this... A- and, and, and again, the, the, the draw of influence, power, and money are, are, are far greater. I mean, I, I think about the people that, like, that are, that are doing really good work in the space. But again, like you said, Mike, they were just researchers. They went, they got their PhD, they coached for three months, and then they released a certification and, and they have this whole thing.
[01:16:46] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And it is solely based in research. But it's like, hey, this is like, you could go buy the book and it'll tell you these same things. Show me how this works. And I, I know these people have gone through these certifications, and they come out of it and they're like, "Oh, I have all this information and nothing to do with it."
[01:17:01] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. Versus like, like MetFlex or whatever, where you're like, "Here's, like, here are case studies. Here's how this works." Or like, you know, the RPR seminar of like, "I don't know. This doesn't, you know, this doesn't make sense, but, like, watch this." And everyone goes- Yeah. ... "Oh, okay. All right." There you go. Like, I was, I was calling bullshit before, but like can't argue with it now.
[01:17:21] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Fine.
[01:17:22] Dean Guedo: See, I wish there was more of that. Like, that's what I love with, like, um... And I know Mike's on the peptides things, but we'll use, like, steroids- ... and like all this stuff, or like bodybuilding techniques, is, like, all these, like, "They fucking were saying that 30 years ago. Now they're just coming up with it now."
[01:17:36] Dean Guedo: Um, I love that. Like, the, oh, like- Yeah ... oh, th- this, this guy you was like, "You think is stupid is not stupid." Um, but the whole time there's this jacked dude being like, "Yeah, I just do..." Like Arnold, they're just, "Do this to get the pump," and- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Da, da, da,
[01:17:50] Jeb Stuart Johnston: da. But again-
[01:17:51] Dean Guedo: Like, that's my fave- I think that's my whole reason why I got into fitness and did all this stuff, or why I do anything, is, like, I wanna be like- Right
[01:17:59] Dean Guedo: a stupid person that is, like, right. Yeah. I was like, I'm right at any cost, which is, like, my bane of my existence, but-
[01:18:05] Jeb Stuart Johnston: That, you know, when we talk about, we talk about bugaboos, but, like, like, that was my whole, like, thing about the this is science-based lifting. And I'm like- No ... so you wanna tell me the hundred years of these guys who had said, "I have an idea of what might work.
[01:18:19] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I'm gonna try this out and see if it works. Oh, you know what? Let's add a variable. Let's remove a variable. Let's try this. Let's do this. Let's see what this... Oh, now I have a new hypothesis," isn't that the scientific... Like, I don't care if the guy's got an IQ of 45, he's applying the scientific method whether he understands it or not.
[01:18:35] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And to discount that to be like, oh, no, the scientific way is to know when exactly you are one rep shy of your max effort, and to be able to add volume over the course of seven weeks without knowing h- any idea why it works, like, come on.
[01:18:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And that's why I read a lot of, like, the old-time strongmen, like stuff before, was it Diana Ball was what?
[01:18:55] Dr. Mike T Nelson: 1952? And again, not that any information after that is- bad. It's just sometimes hard to sort out the training info from the polypharmacy and everything else that's associated with that. Wow.
[01:19:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:19:07] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Again- Right ... doesn't mean that they did not have any good ideas. It just might mean that that may work for, you know, certain enhanced people or whatever.
[01:19:15] Dr. Mike T Nelson: But if you go previous to that, there's, I mean, go all the way back to fricking Sandow. Like, there's people who had amazing physiques- Oh ... very little supplementation. Like, but they're just, those principles were used for decades upon decades, and clearly worked. And then if you look at even a lot of the enhanced people after that, they took a lot of those exact same principles and modified them and tweaked them a little bit.
[01:19:39] Dr. Mike T Nelson: You know, but I think- The
[01:19:40] Dean Guedo: guardrails.
[01:19:41] Dr. Mike T Nelson: The guardrails ... the old stuff is just lost because people are like, "Well, that was like 100 years ago. That couldn't possibly work." Like, really? We're that different now?
[01:19:49] Dean Guedo: Well, it, because the- it's because of the guardrails. It's like Jeb was saying, but like even like with the, the peptide thing or the ster- like, they stop researching it or like pharmaceuticals, like mushrooms and LSD- Yeah, yeah, yeah
[01:19:58] Dean Guedo: you know, they're kind of coming back in. But people are operating on the new and the, what's kind of information age has exploded, but we're in a different time where like we're actually i- in the current environment we're in, we have actually taken out things from the LLM or the, the world because we haven't tested them, or they're bad or whatever, whatever, and we've lost that oral tradition, right?
[01:20:18] Dean Guedo: Mm-hmm. Or what- however they would traditionally pass on information. For sure. And in a lot, lot of ways, like the niche stuff, like the pinch grip stuff, like it's just not there. And like in a lot of ways, that stuff is awesome. And so we're like making all these, I guess, decisions and writing decisions on things that don't include what was been lost.
[01:20:37] Dean Guedo: Um-
[01:20:37] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Which
[01:20:38] Dean Guedo: is- It's burning books. Claude burned- Burning books ... all the books. Well, we, in the books- Because they
[01:20:43] Jeb Stuart Johnston: don't, like we're losing it all. What you just pointed out is funny, 'cause this is totally tangential and doesn't have anything to do with the conversation, but totally does, is I'm on a weird like kick right now after reading, um, Walden by Thoreau, that like, to me, the crowning achievement of Western civilization has always been the Age of Enlightenment, and now I'm starting to think that that actually might have been the tipping point that has driven us to where we are now.
[01:21:06] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Because without the, like, exposition of logic and reason as being these ultimate authorities, um, we never could have gotten to such a narcissistic and nihilistic view that science in and of itself is wrong because it actually allows for self-correction and, and destroys the absolutism that existed prior to- Mm
[01:21:29] Jeb Stuart Johnston: the Age of Enlightenment. Mm-hmm. And, and we've thrown away magic and, and you know, spirituality and all these things in the, in the pursuit of, of- data, but like data is not truth. The, you know, truth is not a, a simplistic thing. It is an overarching kind of concept. And, um, that I think what you said is the loss of oral tradition, and even written tradition going to typing, has reduced our need to synthesize information quickly to understand it, and rather we're just reciting what we heard before
[01:22:03] Dean Guedo: Well, written tradition is combined.
[01:22:04] Dean Guedo: Like, so if we do- Yeah, writ- Especially with AI use, it's like written tradition now is, like, a mixture. And, and I would say most people are using AI at this point for emails and whatever. Sure. I mean, Reddit posts, like people will call them out, but at the end of the day- ... it's merging into it. So, like, written tradition now is actually digital written, um, 'cause the Claude burned every single book that they bought.
[01:22:23] Dean Guedo: Um, you can read about it. But, like, reading is even, like I'm listening to audiobooks and like... But like it- it's, it's, it's we're losing it. It's, it's now a digital, like, tradition, passing on information will be mostly digital, which is- Right ... yeah, it's, it's, that's gonna be tough.
[01:22:39] Jeb Stuart Johnston: But I think for the physical understanding, I mean, I, I, um, I, I've, uh, I think, I think it was actually, um, uh, Ryan Holiday who said it, I thought it was something much older, but was talking about how, like, you know, we treat books as, like, these very, like, static things, and don't ever wanna hurt them and bend them.
[01:22:54] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Uh, he said, "No, write in all the margins, you know, like underline things," and obviously most books don't have margins. So I always keep notebooks on everything I do because there's that, you know, like, just, like, neurological aspect of, like, if you're writing something down and trying to do it quickly on a call, whatever it is, even though I have a transcript, that synthesizing of information quickly is pushing that into my brain in a way that allows for me to try to understand what they're saying, not the words they're saying.
[01:23:22] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Mm-hmm. And I think that literal written transit- tr- tradition and even reading, I think audiobooks are fine, but, like, I think reading needs to happen as well because it is a different modality. And, um, you know, I've, I kind of have a, a, a simple metric now when someone says like, "Oh, I don't like fiction. I only read nonfiction."
[01:23:39] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I'm like, "Okay, we're probably not gonna get along." Um, because I find there's way more wisdom in fiction than there is in any self-help book, and I think that that same tradition you're talking about, Dean, is this, like, lean into, like, "I only need the facts. I only need the things that are gonna drive me to make more money and, and feel safe in an environment where, you know, money is the only thing saving me from the horrors of, of the world at hand."
[01:24:03] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And so people- Yeah ... just go for outcome.
[01:24:05] Dean Guedo: I text the jab this. Like, it's, it's like there's more lessons in fiction a lot of times. If you wanna learn about life, go read the, the Stormlight Arca- Archives, Way of Kings. Hm. Like, it's like-
[01:24:15] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I mean, like again, I've-
[01:24:17] Dean Guedo: I'm completely on board.
[01:24:18] Jeb Stuart Johnston: We started this book club with my clients, and it's the best thing ever because they're all such, like, savages that they're plowing through books in two to three weeks, which has forced me to now take my free time to read fiction.
[01:24:29] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And the conversations we have around it, the things we have, I mean, they apply more to health and wellness than any habit book or any diet book or anything you could read because it's helping to understand the human condition and the why we do the things we do rather than the mechanics of it.
[01:24:47] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah, that's awesome.
[01:24:48] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Last question, we got five minutes left. Do you think as AI and technology accelerates that there would be a push to go back to doing hard physical things, especially things that are more technical? Like I think of, you know, Brazilian jujitsu, I think of kiteboarding, I think of surfing, I think of things that almost no one can start and be at a high level instantly.
[01:25:15] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Like there's no, there are sh- there are faster ways to do it for sure, but it's almost like nobody gets a free pass. Nobody shows up and two weeks later is a legit black belt. No one shows up to the beach and three weeks later is doing, landing 30-foot jumps, or no one's catching every wave they go out on.
[01:25:35] Dr. Mike T Nelson: That those things will reach a higher pinnacle because they are so antithesis of how people are spending most of their digital life
[01:25:46] Dean Guedo: I don't think anything, uh, I'm gonna go first. The- what's the... I think this is the best line for this is, like, when the student's ready, the teacher will appear.
[01:25:54] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
[01:25:55] Dean Guedo: I think the only, I think the only difference is the teacher who likes this stuff like we do will have better information and, and more productivity 'cause of all this stuff.
[01:26:04] Dean Guedo: You'll just have better teachers, but the people are still gonna be the same. You s- you still need them to care, and at the end of the day, without that, like, AI can't fix that.
[01:26:11] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
[01:26:12] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I mean, for me it's, it's, I, I, I look at more of, like, a systemic and institutional level as, like, there will be those people, um, I think about even in music.
[01:26:21] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Again, as a musician, there's been this huge resurgence of things like, um, uh, bluegrass and, like, like, like, you see, like, the, the, the, a lot of the great new country artists are, like, gutter punks who would've been playing punk rock- Mm-hmm ... you know, 20 years ago. Because I think with this realization that, first of all, most pop music was such garbage for so long, it's like AI's not changing that.
[01:26:42] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It sounds the same. No. It's
[01:26:43] Dr. Mike T Nelson: gonna
[01:26:44] Jeb Stuart Johnston: be more garbage. But, but when you go see a live show and every instrument is acoustic or, like, you know, or if you go see, Mike just sent me that Hatebreed's got a new album coming out. I'm pretty stoked for that. Yes. Like, uh, y- Hatebreed isn't gonna be up there, like, you know, pushing play on a thing.
[01:26:56] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah. You're gonna be notes... I mean, I went to see Helmet last year.
[01:26:59] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Oh,
[01:27:00] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I love Helmet. And, and, yeah, but the, uh, the monitors were off, so Page's voice was, like, off the whole time, but it was like, you know what? This is real. This is w- and, and, and one of the things, I took a recording class, and one of the things that's so important in recording is not using pitch to- because in reality, the brain is accustomed to hearing music in its entirety.
[01:27:17] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yep. So bleed, spill, things like that, wrong notes, those, they sound wrong if you're trying to make it perfect, but to the human ear who expects that that's how it's supposed to sound, that now sounds right. Mm-hmm. And so there will be, I think, a core conglomerate of people who search for this. Um, but again, it, like, the people that wanna do jujitsu, like, a lot of people wanna do jujitsu, and they get really into it till they get to a blue belt and their athleticism no longer carries them, and then they quit.
[01:27:44] Jeb Stuart Johnston: So, um, it's gonna be the people that, that understand that, like, again, not meaning to go back to that kind of cheesy "the obstacle is the way," is that- Mm-hmm ... we, when we start to look at problems as the essence of life and solutions as the things that are causing more problems, again, a conversation Dean and I have had many times, then we, I think, start to be like, "Hey, let's stop just trying to fix everything and let's just lean into the, the, the being."
[01:28:10] Dean Guedo: Mm-hmm. I think there's, there's one thing I've thought of through all this, is like there's a, 'cause I'm a father now of two, but it's like when you have, like, another kid, it's like, do you, like, spread your love? And y- but, like, until you actually experience it, it's like it just expands. And I think right now with the digital world, um, is we're assuming that people are leaving the real world and coming into the digital, digital world.
[01:28:34] Dean Guedo: But in a lot of ways it's expanded. If you look at live shows, comedians, uh- Mm-hmm ... any, any band stuff, there's more people showing up to that than ever before because of the exposure. I think it's just expanded. People live in digital, but we're also assuming that they live in the digital and that they're not going to the show, or they're gonna listen to this AI music and they're gonna show up to a show and listen to someone play AI music.
[01:28:55] Dean Guedo: But in a lot of ways it's just expanded.
[01:28:57] Jeb Stuart Johnston: But the counter- Yeah, I mean I- ... to that is how people consume that li- like- Mm ... you go to a live show and watch everyone watching it through their phone in the thing. Yeah. It's like they have now digitized the analog experience.
[01:29:11] Dean Guedo: Yeah, and we d- it's just, it
[01:29:12] Jeb Stuart Johnston: just- I mean, it's reality.
[01:29:13] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It just is what it
[01:29:14] Dean Guedo: is. Yeah, and it's, it's just expanded. Like, I think, like, none of it's... It's just different, and they've had this age-old thing, like, "My generation did this." Jeb's like, "They listen to phones now, and back in the day, we used
[01:29:25] Dr. Mike T Nelson: to
[01:29:25] Dean Guedo: fucking dance."
[01:29:26] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Um, and- We had tin cans and strings, man.
[01:29:27] Dean Guedo: And like, I...
[01:29:28] Dean Guedo: Like, you look at the club now, and they're like, they don't... They, they can go on Tinder and do all this stuff, so now people aren't, like, dancing. They're just, like, talking and... Like, if there's like, "Man, back in the day I used to do this, and we used to get shots, and da da da da." So it's just, like, the same argument.
[01:29:41] Dean Guedo: I think things have just expanded, and I don't think it's good or bad. It just is, right? And so nothing's being pulled from anything, but it's different. Um, yeah.
[01:29:50] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And my hope is that people have that heavy counterweight of still doing hard physical technical things, going to live shows to offset their more digital experience, and hopefully it's just they're, they're both going up.
[01:30:06] Dr. Mike T Nelson: My fear is- Well, people- ... that people get too stuck in one digital only and don't want to put in the time or effort to do something that's physically hard because at first it just sucks. Like, you just get humbled. Yeah. You just get the shit kicked out of you, but that's just part of the process.
[01:30:24] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And
[01:30:24] Dean Guedo: there's more people- And that's just life
[01:30:25] Dean Guedo: doing hard things than ever before. You know what I mean? That's, that's the crazy thing is, like, it's, like, negative, but it's, like, CrossFit fucking blew up. People are- Yeah ... suffering and doing all this stuff. Like- Yeah, Pyrox now ... it's like we're talking, like, about it like it's getting worse, and, like, the thing that hasn't changed is obesity rates because of all the other stuff.
[01:30:39] Dean Guedo: I just think it's, like- E- everyone's doing more of all this stuff, it's just the problems aren't being
[01:30:44] Jeb Stuart Johnston: solved. It's, it's kind of, it's kind of like the Fight Club analogy just continued on, right? Like, that whole movie- Mm-hmm ... was about, like, the, the, the, the, like, suffering of corporate life and, and modernity, and so let's, let's do something that's archaic and savage.
[01:30:59] Jeb Stuart Johnston: And it's not really about the fight, it's about that, that analogy of the fight that is life. And, and some people are gonna choose to engage in it and some people are gonna take the cipher way out and, and just eat the steak.
[01:31:11] Dean Guedo: Yeah. Who says it's all gonna burn to the ground?
[01:31:14] Jeb Stuart Johnston: I believe so, and I, I think- That's literally what you just said.
[01:31:16] Jeb Stuart Johnston: It's like Fight
[01:31:17] Dean Guedo: Club. You don't have to
[01:31:17] Jeb Stuart Johnston: watch- No, that is my, that is my belief, and I, I feel like we have absolutely no ability to change the course of action that is the future, but I try not to tell people that because it is pretty dark.
[01:31:27] Dean Guedo: All right. What's Mike's thoughts? You should end it with your thoughts, '
[01:31:30] Jeb Stuart Johnston: cause-
[01:31:30] Dean Guedo: Oh
[01:31:31] Dean Guedo: our thoughts are clearly very, very set on it. Insane.
[01:31:34] Dr. Mike T Nelson: I mean, I actually think that the more society is pushed to do hard, physical things, the better off everyone is going to be. 'Cause I think AI technology is an inevitability that's coming, no matter if we like it, don't like it. I think you're gonna have to learn to interact with it, what are its limits, and then also find some heavy counterweight from a physical, mental...
[01:32:02] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Even just you can get into the whole neurology of coordinating eye input to vestibular input to proprioceptive input to learning new tasks and all that kind of stuff. I think that's gonna be the best counterweight instead of spending your whole time trying to be an ostrich and stick your head in the sand.
[01:32:20] Jeb Stuart Johnston: There you go
[01:32:21] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Yeah. So where can people find you guys?
[01:32:22] Jeb Stuart Johnston: That's, that's perfect. Um, my website is www.foodonthemind.com. Um, you can find me @jebstuartjohnston on Instagram. My favorite place to live right now is Substack, where you can hear... I've got a memoir series on there, which is the insanity of my life, uh, before I got into fitness, and you can also read the, um, complete incoherent ramblings of a crazy person on my side one, which is called, uh, Tangential, Inconsequential, uh, Existential and Experiential.
[01:32:51] Dr. Mike T Nelson: Nice. Awesome. We'll definitely put that in the show notes.
[01:32:53] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Yeah, that- Dean-
[01:32:54] Dean Guedo: No one's gonna, no one's gonna believe anything that you said after reading your life
[01:32:59] Jeb Stuart Johnston: story. Because it does sound like it's completely made up, I will agree.
[01:33:02] Dr. Mike T Nelson: It does, actually.
[01:33:04] Dean Guedo: You need to get on that, that one where they do the videos.
[01:33:06] Dean Guedo: I think it's in New York, and they like, the Soft Boy- Oh, Subway Cakes? Soft Boy Underbelly. I think you need to do an interview there. Oh, Soft Under- Yeah.
[01:33:12] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Okay. I'll
[01:33:13] Dean Guedo: look for that one. But you can find me on Instagram, walk.more.king. I think my website's getfluxed.ca. I'm very, like, offline lately. I'm going through a phase, um, partially 'cause of all this stuff.
[01:33:25] Dean Guedo: Um, and life's been amazing. Yes. So you should exit the internet, and then life
[01:33:28] Jeb Stuart Johnston: will- Dean, Dean is the happy one. Dole is, Dole is off the internet, even.
[01:33:32] Dean Guedo: Dole, geez.
[01:33:33] Jeb Stuart Johnston: Most happy.
[01:33:34] Dean Guedo: Yeah. Yeah. Most happy I've been. And he's,
[01:33:35] Jeb Stuart Johnston: he's happy. He said he's- Yeah ... the happiest he's been. I mean, it's also when
[01:33:38] Dean Guedo: you- If you take anything from that, I use AI literally every second of the day.
[01:33:43] Dean Guedo: Um, and I hate the internet. So it, it makes me feel terrible. Um-
[01:33:50] Jeb Stuart Johnston: All right, guys, I actually do have to run. See you. Um, we need to, like, just do a- Thank you ... we need to schedule, like, one of these just for fun again, because this-